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Mystic Muse
2010-05-02, 12:29 AM
well, I've heard of fixes for all sorts of things. FIghters, Sorcerors, wizard, Monks, TOB, Feats, Skills*.

What I haven't heard or read about is a modified version of the CR system. Do one of these exist or would I have to make my own?


*Note. The things listed heard are simply examples. There may not be actual fixes for these things.

Godskook
2010-05-02, 01:00 AM
Because there's no good way to tell somebody what kind of challenge is appropriate to their group.

In this very sub-forum, I can point to two different threads that have been active this week, one where the OP's group is almost capable of killing a pit fiend at ECL 14, and in the other, the OP's group would die horribly to the same fiend if run by the former OP's DM. These are the extreme examples, but there's less extreme ones running around as well.

There's also no accounting for tactics of the monsters, or DM-Fiat. I'm currently running an encounter where the PCs are fighting a druid. Module suggested I open combat with produce flame. Instead, I open with entangle. What could've been a very easy enoucnter for our group's Duskblade to solo has become a very rough one where the same duskblade is now at risk of dropping, simply by my choice of opening spell(Note: Entangle was memorized by the module-ready Druid. I didn't 'shop' for that spell).

You can't fix CR until you fix the PCs first, cause CR is, oddly enough, technically defined by ECL. A L20 fighter and a pit fiend are both CR 20 encounters. So's a Wizard 3/Druid 3/MT 4/AH 11, and he's got *EPIC SPELLCASTING* on two different spell lists.(Ah, the fun that is nonassociated levels)

Divide by Zero
2010-05-02, 01:00 AM
Wing it. If it ends up being too weak, oh well, and if it's too strong, make sure your players know that you expect them to run away when necessary, and allow them to do so unless you have plot reasons.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-02, 01:06 AM
Okay, thanks. Just wondering.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 01:17 AM
We're working on one.... It happened as part of a revamp of the entire game though, so I don't know what that's worth to you.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-02, 01:23 AM
We're working on one.... It happened as part of a revamp of the entire game though, so I don't know what that's worth to you.

eh, probably not a lot. I might just make my own version of the game someday. (after finishing that book I have to write, watching about five different series, reading five different books, getting a lot more comics done, a coupla D&D sessions and re-reading Dork tower. Oh, and that's not even including video games I have to play.:smallannoyed:)

Luckily, some People have already done some of my work for me. Oslecamo has a bunch of nice monsters, Surrealistik has a Paladin I like and Fax Celestis has a nice Monk replacement.

I think the hardest part will be dealing with spells.

awa
2010-05-02, 01:49 AM
its not even just optimization something like a dread wraith will eat a rouge alive, where a cleric with access to some of those anti undead sun/light spells would have little difficulty.

Runestar
2010-05-02, 05:05 AM
Exactly what sort of modifications are you seeking to the cr system?

The only problem I see with it is that cr was set by the designers pitting said monster against a group of relatively unoptimized core-only PCs (fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue). Thus, against more optimized PCs, or atypical makeups, cr may no longer be accurate as an indicator of how challenging the monster is expected to be. A monster that is a TPK against your fighter, fighter, rogue, rogue party may be a pushover against my warblade, wizard, wizard, ghaele party (or even vice versa!).

Wotc even posted an article detailing a fight between a 16th lv party and a balor, suggesting that the balor isn't really as tough as it ought to be. Based on how the fight went, cr18 seems more fitting for the balor.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050809a

There are also assumptions. For example, a medusa is hardly a challenge against a party who close their eyes while fighting it (though it will be quite annoying with the 50% miss chance and all). But if it is able to catch the party by surprise and petrify at least one PC before going down, this more than justifies its cr7 tag.

I think what we need isn't more "accurate" cr values, but more transparency in how those values were determined. This way, we can make more informed decisions in how tough those monsters are expected to be against our own unique parties. For example, wotc could detail the playtesting process and showcase how they arrived at the crs of certain monsters which are representative of a certain role (since I don't think it is practical to explain how they arrived at every single cr, though I am certainly interested in hearing their explanations for MM2...:smallamused:)