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Riffington
2010-05-02, 04:03 AM
Suppose you eliminated Wisdom entirely.
Gave the "perception" gig (Spot/Listen) to Dexterity; folded the rest of it into Charisma (maybe calling it Psyche). All wisdom-based class powers would go to Charisma, except for the few that were perception-based.
How much would this screw up game balance? Obviously it'd help Paladins a lot and provide a small benefit to rogues/scouts. Would it unbalance clerics much?

Spiryt
2010-05-02, 04:06 AM
If Wisdom stuff was kinda equally distributed between Intelligence and Charisma (with more to Charisma, I guess) it could be fairly interesting.

I don't know how Dexterity should have anything to do with it.

Ichneumon
2010-05-02, 04:08 AM
A few issues:

1. I don't understand the thematic link between Dexterity and Perception, other that that the perception stuff has to go somewhere.

2. Dexterity would become even more useful, as it is already the stat used for ranged attacks and defense. Rogues would love Dexterity even more when perception skills become part of dex, which makes Dex almost the sole attribute they need for anything the ever want to do. I think this would likely be very unbalancing.

I don't think it will unbalance clerics much.

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-02, 04:08 AM
Yeah, you lost me with the Dexterity bit. I don't think it means what you think it means. :smallwink:

Octopus Jack
2010-05-02, 04:10 AM
Sounds fun, but then what would I do without my precious dump stat?

Riffington
2010-05-02, 04:10 AM
I don't know how Dexterity should have anything to do with it.

Well, I see having good coordination and good senses as being related. I mean, I'd stereotype archers as having good eyes.
Also, the scout/ranger/rogue types seem to all have light armor/high dex.

Gralamin
2010-05-02, 04:12 AM
Clerics now need to pump Charisma. This only makes it so they have Turn undead uses.

Of note:
Spirit Shaman and Favored Soul are now SAD classes
Will saves, in general are a lot higher. (Incoporeal undead especially)

----
In general though, there are a bunch of ways to get Charisma to most things Wisdom covers, so I don't think it'd be that big of a change.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-02, 04:12 AM
Maybe put the perception skills under Constitution? This is following the same logic that Concentration is there (in fact it's the only skill it affects, never noticed that), so maybe for skills it can represent ability to focus?

I know Con is a big stat for every class, but it might give a teeny boon to the skill deprived Melee types

PersonMan
2010-05-02, 10:25 AM
Maybe put the perception skills under Constitution? This is following the same logic that Concentration is there (in fact it's the only skill it affects, never noticed that), so maybe for skills it can represent ability to focus?

I know Con is a big stat for every class, but it might give a teeny boon to the skill deprived Melee types

I agree. It makes sense that a healthy person would have better eyes/ears than a sickly old person.

Also, I think that Will saves would probably go to Charisma, due to the whole "force of personality" thing.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-02, 11:28 AM
I think dumping Charisma makes more sense than dumping Wisdom.

obnoxious
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Haven
2010-05-02, 11:42 AM
I think dumping Charisma makes more sense than dumping Wisdom.

obnoxious
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Me too. Try giving everything it does to Wisdom--maybe even go to the logical conclusion and throw diplomacy checks and the like out of the system entirely.

TheThan
2010-05-02, 11:51 AM
Me too. Try giving everything it does to Wisdom--maybe even go to the logical conclusion and throw diplomacy checks and the like out of the system entirely.

you'll have to throw out charisma based classes (sorcerer, bard) as well as all the other charisma based skills like handle animal, bluff, intimidate and gather information.

Valairn
2010-05-02, 11:56 AM
Those could easily be ported to wisdom, and "force of will" casters like sorcerers, could easily be ported to a mix of wisdom and constitution.

Mongoose87
2010-05-02, 11:57 AM
If you're going to ditch Wisdom, I'd change it so that, instead of Intelligence, you have "Mental" or "Mind" or "Thought" and rolled all of Wisdom into it.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-02, 12:00 PM
At that point, you could just go with an entirely new system, of course. Like Unisystem or GURPS or Riddle of Steel.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-02, 12:04 PM
I considered rolling up Wisdom and Charisma into one stat and calling it Guile, Aquity, or somesuch.

Origomar
2010-05-02, 12:06 PM
feel like posting this since it is mildly related.



http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html

Soranar
2010-05-02, 12:07 PM
The only stat I can see which you could reasonably drop would be merging Strength and Constitution.

Adding more STATS to a system is simple, but removing any from the current one (3.5 at least) is not evident at all.

Most people I know would agree that Wisdom and Intelligence is not the same thing and that it is quite possible to have one without the other. The same goes for Charisma.

Being resilient without strength is not that common though. And a tough character that is not too strong (say a turtle) could be explained via Damage reduction.

taltamir
2010-05-02, 12:09 PM
so basically, you want to eliminate charisma (a useless dump stat), and rename wisdom into psyche... I am all for it.
Charisma as written is plain dumb. Rolling it and wisdom into one stat sounds fine to me.


Most people I know would agree that Wisdom and Intelligence is not the same thing and that it is quite possible to have one without the other. The same goes for Charisma.

Excuse me, but how would people all agree that charisma is not wisdom?
The best explanation of what charisma actually IS that I have ever heard is "it is your willpower and force of personality"... well guess what, will-power is a function of wisdom.

Everyone I talked to could explain exactly what strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, and wisdom are... charisma is the one that is completely undefinable in a way that separates it from the other stats or is somehow related to what it is supposed to do. So I ask you, what IS charisma in DnD?

waterpenguin43
2010-05-02, 12:14 PM
The only stat I can see which you could reasonably drop would be merging Strength and Constitution.

Adding more STATS to a system is simple, but removing any from the current one (3.5 at least) is not evident at all.

Most people I know would agree that Wisdom and Intelligence is not the same thing and that it is quite possible to have one without the other. The same goes for Charisma.

Being resilient without strength is not that common though. And a tough character that is not too strong (say a turtle) could be explained via Damage reduction.

I agree. DR puts in the "tough but not strong" part. The only reason STR and CON are different is for balance, I think.

Gorgondantess
2010-05-02, 12:17 PM
The problem with merging wisdom into charisma is that, from an RP standpoint, I really don't think of sorcerors and bards and such as "wise" characters. In fact, quite the contrary. Then how will we be able to create our lovable low-wisdom vagabonds?:smallfrown:

Spiryt
2010-05-02, 12:22 PM
I agree. DR puts in the "tough but not strong" part. The only reason STR and CON are different is for balance, I think.

Hmmm, I don't think so.

Stuff under Constitution is usually something very different from the stuff under Strength.

D&D is of course very simple anyway, but it's easily possible to visualize someone who is very endurable, pain, shock resistant, healthy etc, but not strong.

Vice versa is also easy with some fluff of course, but quite "realistic".

On the other hand, you can put things from Wisdom to Intelligence of Charisma pretty easily, because those are much more abstract attributes.

Saph
2010-05-02, 12:27 PM
I don't know . . . Wisdom and Charisma seem very distinct to me. One's perception, mental balance, and insight, the other's social presence and likeability.

Game-balance wise, I guess it would be fine, but I'd find it hard to see how perception-related stuff would go under anything but Wisdom.

Tengu_temp
2010-05-02, 12:27 PM
If you need to do this, I suggest replacing Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma with two stats - Mind and Soul. Mind would have all the elements of Intelligence, some of Wisdom and a few of Charisma (such as bluff, for example), while Soul would be responsible for the rest of Wisdom and Charisma.

Paulus
2010-05-02, 12:30 PM
The only stat I can see which you could reasonably drop would be merging Strength and Constitution.

Adding more STATS to a system is simple, but removing any from the current one (3.5 at least) is not evident at all.

Most people I know would agree that Wisdom and Intelligence is not the same thing and that it is quite possible to have one without the other. The same goes for Charisma.

Being resilient without strength is not that common though. And a tough character that is not too strong (say a turtle) could be explained via Damage reduction.

This logic is undeniable. If you are strong of body, that is strength. Intestinal fortitude is not will because that is wisdom, it is strength. Of body, not of mind, which is Wis and Int. This would actually boost all chars considerably because it would make everybody who adventures have reasonable strength of body. Even wizards. A turtle could also be spoken for by Natural armor. Toughness has always been linked to hit points, but we all know toughness is strength of body, stronger body equal more fortitude.

Here I was going to suggest Wis and Cha being put together because they are so similar, as well as, perceptions being more a Wis stat then Cha or strength of body, but now I'm sold on getting rid of Con.

Mongoose87
2010-05-02, 12:44 PM
I played football with this fellow, Trevor. He was huge and strong as an ox. He also screamed like a little girl, when he was tackled. That is why I will never believe Strength and Constitution should be rolled into one.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-02, 12:45 PM
Yeah, I'd agree with the anti-Con camp. It's the black sheep of the stats. Everybody needs it, but it just kind of sits there and doesn't contribute much actively (for most characters, it's more hp, higher Fort. save, and a boost to Concentration; even the Incarnum classes and DFA enjoy it passively as a save DC booster).

The question becomes: with a loss of an ability score, how would one alter point buy?

Edit: More random thoughts:

If you just had STR and DEX as the physical ability scores, you could do some interesting stuff.

DEX could apply to all melee and ranged attack rolls, while STR would apply to melee damage rolls. Skills would largely remain unchanged, perhaps making Concentration either STR-based or WIS-based.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-02, 01:00 PM
I don't know . . . Wisdom and Charisma seem very distinct to me. One's perception, mental balance, and insight, the other's social presence and likeability.

Game-balance wise, I guess it would be fine, but I'd find it hard to see how perception-related stuff would go under anything but Wisdom.
I could very well see perception-related stuff going under Intelligence. After all, Search and Appraise are Int-based.

pasko77
2010-05-02, 01:16 PM
I played once a variant with 4 stats.
STR + CON = "fortitude" and WIS + CHA = "will".
It helps a lot MAD classes and actually makes sense.

Saph
2010-05-02, 01:23 PM
I could very well see perception-related stuff going under Intelligence. After all, Search and Appraise are Int-based.

Those are based on focusing on something, though. How observant you are doesn't have any necessary connection to how intelligent you are.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-02, 01:32 PM
Those are based on focusing on something, though. How observant you are doesn't have any necessary connection to how intelligent you are.
Why is Searching a chest for a hidden compartment "focusing on something", but putting your ear to the door and trying to hear what's on the other side not? Can you explain? No, it's very unlikely you can. It's just one of those things that Wizards did - Search is off Int and Listen/Spot of Wis. And it stuck.

Saph
2010-05-02, 01:36 PM
Why is Searching a chest for a hidden compartment "focusing on something", but putting your ear to the door and trying to hear what's on the other side not? Can you explain? No, it's very unlikely you can.

Search represents your ability to notice what you're concentrating on. Perception-related skills like Listen and Spot represent your ability to notice what you're not concentrating on. There are plenty of people in the real world with tunnel vision: they're great at noticing details at what they're focusing on, but they're blind to everything else. Wizards didn't just pull it out of a hat.

Lord Loss
2010-05-02, 01:40 PM
It's kind of like Dex: It determines how good your agility and manual dexterity are, even though this makes little sense. point is: It make sthe game easier.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-02, 02:19 PM
Search represents your ability to notice what you're concentrating on. Perception-related skills like Listen and Spot represent your ability to notice what you're not concentrating on. There are plenty of people in the real world with tunnel vision: they're great at noticing details at what they're focusing on, but they're blind to everything else. Wizards didn't just pull it out of a hat.I just now gave an example how Listen represents the ability to concentrate on the noises on the other side of the door, tuning out all ambient noises, and deciphering the conversation that the two people in the other room are having. Just now. It's right there in my previous post. You could have at least acknowledge seeing it.

While I see where you're coming from with Concentraton on vs. not Concentrate on, the sad reality is the actual rules strayed a bit from that concept.

Eloel
2010-05-02, 02:31 PM
I just now gave an example how Listen represents the ability to concentrate on the noises on the other side of the door, tuning out all ambient noises, and deciphering the conversation that the two people in the other room are having. Just now. It's right there in my previous post. You could have at least acknowledge seeing it.

While I see where you're coming from with Concentraton on vs. not Concentrate on, the sad reality is the actual rules strayed a bit from that concept.

Split the skills.

Make Watch & Listen Int based (maybe even call it 'Attention' and make both the same)

Make Spot & Hear Wis based (Perception, maybe?)

Job done on those.

taltamir
2010-05-02, 02:46 PM
I don't know . . . Wisdom and Charisma seem very distinct to me. One's perception, mental balance, and insight, the other's social presence and likeability.

Game-balance wise, I guess it would be fine, but I'd find it hard to see how perception-related stuff would go under anything but Wisdom.

if charisma is social presence, how come charisma affects your ability to:
1. cast arcane magic
2. use magic devices.

what IS social presence? is it your looks? self confidence (aka will-power)?...

you are confusing wisdom (the word in the dictionary) with wisdom (the word as used by WOTC)... WOTC mangles the english language... when WOTC says always it means "usually", when WOTC says wisdom and charisma they don't mean what the dictionary says they do.

Saph
2010-05-02, 02:47 PM
I just now gave an example how Listen represents the ability to concentrate on the noises on the other side of the door, tuning out all ambient noises, and deciphering the conversation that the two people in the other room are having. Just now. It's right there in my previous post. You could have at least acknowledge seeing it.

The general rule is that Search is used for concentrating and focusing, while Listen/Spot are used passively. Finding individual counterexamples just shows that D&D isn't always consistent.

taltamir
2010-05-02, 02:49 PM
concentration is a skill by itself... it is dependent on constitution. :P
But I like the idea that listen is the trained ability to focus on specific sounds.

as for the whole str = con thing people have been saying... con determines your resistance to poison, disease, and injury... strength has nothing to do with the above mentioned...

You can be strong as an ox but very unhealthy. its actually pretty common to be overweight and unhealthy when very strong

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-02, 02:52 PM
I don't think that any stat really needs to be gotten rid of. Intelligence and Dexterity represent finesse in mind and body, Charisma and Strength represent ability to change the world to your liking with words or brute force, Wisdom and Constitution represent resistance to such changes.

I can confidently assess my own IRL attributes in D&D terms (below average Strength, average Dexterity, slightly above average Constitution, high Intelligence, awful Wisdom and slightly below average Charisma. 8, 10, 12/13, 14-17, 6/7 and 9 respectively) and dropping any makes it more difficult. Dropping Charisma probably keeps it about as easy, Wisdom is very difficult and Consitution would certainly have me stop to think longer than usual. Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence were not suggested for removal but each would also cause problems. Each attribute has its place, removing any is problematic.

The above is all IMO, obviously.

Spiryt
2010-05-02, 02:55 PM
concentration is a skill by itself... it is dependent on constitution. :P
But I like the idea that listen is the trained ability to focus on specific sounds.

as for the whole str = con thing people have been saying... con determines your resistance to poison, disease, and injury... strength has nothing to do with the above mentioned...

You can be strong as an ox but very unhealthy. its actually pretty common to be overweight and unhealthy when very strong

Unless your high strength is connected with being very massive - then being more resistant to poison or disease than smaller people makes perfect sense.

There are also of course points were stuff from Str contradicts the stuff from Con in real life - like running, swimming and general endurance, so I generally agree that Con = Strength is bad idea.

Teddy
2010-05-02, 02:58 PM
The general rule is that Search is used for concentrating and focusing, while Listen/Spot are used passively. Finding individual counterexamples just shows that D&D isn't always consistent.

I tend to think of it like this:

Search is based on Int, because it mostly reflects your ability to come up with ideas of where things could be hidden.

Spot and listen is based on Wis because they're more about processing information subconciously, than actual thinking.

taltamir
2010-05-02, 02:58 PM
I don't think that any stat really needs to be gotten rid of. Intelligence and Dexterity represent finesse in mind and body, Charisma and Strength represent ability to change the world to your liking with words or brute force, Wisdom and Constitution represent resistance to such changes.

I can confidently assess my own IRL attributes in D&D terms (below average Strength, average Dexterity, slightly above average Constitution, high Intelligence, awful Wisdom and slightly below average Charisma. 8, 10, 12/13, 14-17, 6/7 and 9 respectively) and dropping any makes it more difficult. Dropping Charisma probably keeps it about as easy, Wisdom is very difficult and Consitution would certainly have me stop to think longer than usual. Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence were not suggested for removal but each would also cause problems. Each attribute has its place, removing any is problematic.

The above is all IMO, obviously.

the thing is, in game charisma serves to give a tiny insignificant bonus to social skill checks (its better to have ranks in it, or an item that boosts it)... they thought "wow, charisma sucks, how about we make it more useful"... so they decided to make it so you can use it to cast spells (why? I mean, summoning spirits I can see, maybe... and making deals with them... but arcane and divine magic makes no sense)... and to use magic devices (apparently its not study or common sense... but how socially popular you are that determines your effectiveness there).

Sure you can estimate your social skills (aka cha value), but you could estime a whole lot of other specific unique values that have no bearing on what is essentially a combat simulator... You can estimate your height, your wealth, your mathematical talent, your musical talent, etc etc etc...
just because you can quantify something doesn't mean its a valid stat for a game like DnD.


Unless your high strength is connected with being very massive - then being more resistant to poison than smaller people makes perfect sense.

There are also of course points were stuff from Str contradicts the stuff from Con in real life - like running, swimming and general endurance, so I generally agree that Con = Strength is bad idea.

actually that is exactly what I was thinking of...

the highest con people are olympic runners and swimmers... don't get me wrong, they ARE strong... but their ability to lift or drag is insignificant compared to that of those who specialize in strength based athletics.

erikun
2010-05-02, 04:33 PM
I would say that Listen/Spot would make most sense in Intelligence. Everything else in Charisma, possibly renamed "Willpower", although that would be confusing next to Will saves. (or perhaps not)

As for Strength/Constitution, not everything determined by Strength applies to each other. The muscles to pull a bow are different than to swing a sword, or to lift a weight, or to climb a cliff. Heck, if endurance checks like running and swimming are measured by Constitution, then shouldn't carrying capacity be too?

Ormur
2010-05-03, 12:20 AM
I always think of the absent minded professor in terms of wisdom and intelligence being separate and listen/spot being tied to wisdom, or just myself. I can memorize tons of trivia just by looking at it but I once meticulously hung dirty clothes that had yet to be washed up to dry. I also don't know what's happening around me. I obviously have better int than wis.

I don't necessarily think the rest of the wisdom skill makes sense but not keying spot and listen to intelligence does. Wisdom is probably supposed to represent being more in tune, perception, intuition and such. Making it a casting stat can pass of that since you get the magic through being in tune with god's will or nature or somesuch. Even survival and heal can be understood in those terms.

The problems I have is the connection to charisma as force of personality, especially considering the will save, and the three bloody occupation skills of craft/profession/performance that make no sense whatsoever.

If charisma is force of personality how can you be absent minded and with a low will save, unless it's just supposed to represent some kind of vapid social façade score that happens to be a casting stat. That could be represented by the diplomacy skill just fine.

I'd be in favour of rolling charisma and wisdom into one stat if we'd only have five but it doesn't bother me too much. I just think of charisma as I described above in terms of roleplaying and mechanically it doesn't matter.

Draz74
2010-05-03, 12:25 AM
On the physical side, I use Brawn and Fitness instead of Strength and Constitution. Brawn deals with bulk and sheer power ... like weapon damage and resilience to physical blows. And carrying capacity. Fitness deals with endurance (such as fighting, swimming far, or forced marching without getting fatigued), overall coordination (such as attack rolls for melee attacks), and health (such as surviving diseases).

It has me quite satisfied as far as strength and constitution effects are concerned (though I have to admit, Brawn helping you survive Poisons would make sense too, after a fashion). The question I'm left with is whether it's worth maintaining a separation between Fitness and Agility (i.e. a renamed Dexterity), or whether Dexterity should just be dropped from the system.