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Jacque
2010-05-02, 04:36 AM
Hello Playground,

I've been DMing a campaign where the players got from level 5 to level 20. We're now doing some wrap-up adventures where they get to play some of the "lose ends" through the eyes of other factions, meaning they get to see the world from the perspective of both their allies but also their enemies. The setting is White Wolf's Scarred Lands - a setting I think not many of you are familiar with.

Anyways, we're about to venture on our third adventure where they will be playing level 20 Drendali (drows) set out to revive a God. We have all materials allowed, and the group, as well as I, are pretty good at optimizing. Unfortunately, this often leads to short encounters which primarely revolves around dealing enough burst damage. Sometimes some of the group members don't even get to make an attack before the fight is over.

We would like to extend the combats and the best way, I think, is to add more semi-powerful minions to the fight and/or give the few bad guys some extraordinary defensive stats so they can take the punishment from 5 players with 5 actions. Unfortunately, I find it difficult to manage 10 - 20 minions who all are supposed to be powerful enough to be a threat to a level 20 group, but also simple enough for the game to keep its flow.

What can we do to extend our combats to more than 2 - 3 rounds?

Eldariel
2010-05-02, 04:49 AM
2-3 rounds is pretty much par de course on most levels of play without mitigating factors. However, optimized defenses with spellcasting playing a major part and lots of action negation and means to prevent straight interaction tend to help. Simple things like Heals, Revivifies and such can keep a combat going a lot longer already, and enemy having Mirror Image + Displacement up, let alone Shapechange and some Planar Bound minions, makes it quite hard to get them without Dispels.

And yeah, it's rarely optimal for people to face off themselves, and using terrain (important: terrain must always be modeled before the combat) and spells like Wall of Stone, Solid Fog, Control Weather, etc. to make it hard to find opponents and directly affect them tends to be a good idea, particularly for burrowing creatures, creatures with extraordinary senses, etc. Basically, the foes making the PCs unable to directly affect them is a good idea.


Also, things like Contingencies (e.g. Contingent Resilient Sphere/Teleport on self activated by saying "blablagarh" [speaking is a free action] is a great way to negate some of opposition's actions), Contingent Energy Resistances, Resist Energies, Energy Immunities and such are eminently available and should always be on for high-level characters, NPCs and monsters (Demons, Devils, Dragons, etc. have easy means to guarantee access to such buffs).

Against the Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133571) showcases a high CR Dragon using various means to fight a group of 4 PCs on relatively even footing, for example. It may give you a good idea. And yeah, high-level D&D is really magic-focused and non-casters need magic items to replicate stuff like that. It's just the way it works; non-casters can be offensively optimized, but their defense beyond ~50 AC, ignoring other martial characters' damage and maxing saves and touch AC just isn't gonna happen. And yeah, pumping out decent AC, saves and HP (Con-boosters are king) on adversaries is a good idea too.

Also, Free/Immediate Action Counterspells in Divine Defiance [Fiendish Codex II], Battlemagic Perception [Heroes of Battle] and even Duelward [Spell Compendium] are good ways to negate some of the action advantage from PCs. As are any free action attacks and such. And yeah, Dispels are huge on this level so partially negating them with things like Ring of Enduring Arcana [Complete Mage] is a good way to make it harder to kill things. And yeah.

I'd probably take a look at some of the Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150821&page=2) matches for some ideas too. Keep in mind that most adversaries the PCs face tend to have means to know they're coming (Divinations if nothing else, though don't deny those from PCs either, of course) and thus can prepare appropriately.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-02, 05:08 AM
The single best way to extend a fight is information denial.

Attack through secondary summons, attack through bonus abilities, and most importantly, USE THE HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE.

The dragon uses Guards and Wards and Control Weather to limit vision, and then follows with Superior Invisibility to stop other senses. There are counters, and the thread will show that they're used. The key is to try to figure out your own weaknesses and prepare against them.

For example: The dragon's lair is vulnerable to dispels.

Solution: PaO on the ceiling. Successful dispels can cause Cave in's. In some areas, dispels even release lava.

The Dragon is vulnerable to archery.

Solution: Wind effects to negate archery.

The dragon is vulnerable to cold.

Solution: Magic immunity to cold.

Cover your bases, and provide ways to confuse the opponent. Project Image can be amazing, in the right conditions. True seeing reveals it to be an illusion, and it's ignored... until you start casting spells out of it.

The bottom line is to confound your opponent. Tornado strength wind is awesome for big critters, as smaller creatures can get caught and trapped, making them sitting ducks.

AslanCross
2010-05-02, 05:59 AM
Eldariel and PhoenixRivers made very good suggestions. I also strongly recommend the extensive use of terrain.

Ample sources of cover, constricting terrain, manipulable objects, and weather do the great job of making the encounter interesting and memorable and make things more difficult for the PCs such that they can't just press their win buttons and kill everyone.

For example, you've got an encounter in a cave.
It's easy enough to make a large, flat, open chamber. However, that's boring and not very challenging.

Now you add stalagmites for cover. Add glowing fungi for illumination, and others that absorb the light around them (and give off spores that can cause sleep or poison). Put the bad guys on higher ground. Give them ranged weapons.

There are only two ways up: a narrow rickety staircase going up a scaffolding, or the sheer rock face. As the PCs climb, the archers can take potshots against them. The big bruiser monster is waiting for them at the top and is ready to knock any PCs off.

That's just an example, of course---you have a Lv 20 party, which is going to be more than a little difficult to challenge.

Jacque
2010-05-02, 06:18 AM
As I expected (read: feared) you've given me a lot of possibilities to consider. A lot of it seems to require an extensive knowledge of high level spells and their potentials as well as useful magic items which should be enough to fill my Sunday with a lot of reading to do. The bad guy in my adventure is an avatar of a demi-god who can cast both arcane and divine spells, and they will also encounter an Elder Brain who uses psionic abilities.

Especially dispel magic has had me worried, as it only takes one of them to cast the spell to remove my most powerful defensive spells, and then the rest of them can start pounding. Your suggested magic items to counter this should be most welcome.

Phoenix: Did you use any step-by-step plan when designing the terrain and environment (including the magical enhancements)?

AslanCross
2010-05-02, 07:03 AM
I suggest not casting all the buffs in one go---besides, casting eight buff spells in succession can wear down the duration on the first few ones you cast (though if they're minute duration spells you're fine).

Spells like Mislead (if the PCs open up with Dispel Magic on the guy and the first thing they see is the Major Image created by Mislead, they just wasted a spell).

Of course, you have to know just how many they've got prepared.

Runestar
2010-05-02, 08:15 AM
Maximizing their action economy definitely helps some. Try to ensure they can consistently move, attack as well as utilise swift/immediate actions each round.

You may want to use 2-3 moderately powerful npcs rather than 1 extremely powerful solo. Try to set it up so the party has to split up their resources, rather than allowing them to focus-fire on the same target. They should be able to reliably take on EL21-22 encounters, so use cr16-18 foes.

For example, I think 3 elder elementals with 5-6 lvs of martial adept should suffice in challenging a 20th lv party (inspired by an old PbP where 6 ECL20 PCs got their behinds handed to them by an EL19 encounter!). They can use counters to ward off some of the more popular attacks (eg: iron heart surge counters maze), move and still be able to lay on the hurt with maneuvers such as time-stands-still or strike of perfect clarity. They also have to hp to soak up a lot of abuse before going down, and boosts to get punch through the PCs' defenses.

J.Gellert
2010-05-02, 08:25 AM
Use Hero Points or something similar to allow rerolls of saving throws against save-or-die and save-or-lose spells/abilities.

Jacque
2010-05-04, 12:11 PM
I've created the bad guy for my adventure. If you could look it over and say what you think, I would be very grateful. Again, I mainly seek advice into how to make him more defensive, and also tell me what method you would use to defeat him (the group consists of 5 lvl 20 characters with 760,000gc equipment). I'm open to any changes.


Avatar – Ashumas
Medium Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 30d8+270 (409 hp av., 510 mx.)
Initiative: +27
Speed: 60 ft., fly 90 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 50 (+9 armor, +11 Dex, +7 natural, +9 deflection, +4 insight), touch 34, flat-footed 36
Base Attack/Grapple: +30/+34
Attack: Destiny (dagger) +47 melee (1d4+6, 19-20)
Full Attack: Destiny (dagger) +47/+42/+37/+32 (1d4+6, 19-20)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 9/magic, darkvision 120 ft., fast healing 6, flight, immunities, improved uncanny dodge, low-light vision, prophecy, spell resistance 34, uncanny dodge
Divine Qualities: Demigod’s avatar, divine creation 2, divine favor 1, divine initiative 1, divine knowledge 2, divine protection 3, divine puissance 3, divine telepathy, divine language
Saves: Fort +32, Ref +36, Will +34
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 32, Con 28, Int 31, Wis 31, Cha 23
Skills: Appraise +22, Bluff +22, Concentration +40, Decipher Script +36, Diplomacy +38, Disguise +34 (+36 acting), Gather Information +34, Intimidate +36, Knowledge(arcane) +42, Knowledge(history) +32, Knowledge(religion) +38, Listen +40, Ritual Casting +40, Search +40, Sense Motive +38, Spellcraft +38, Spot +40, Tumble +26, Use Magic Device +30
Feats: Alertness, Augment Summoning, Extend Spell, Improved Initiative, Improved Spell Capacity (10th:Cleric), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Penetration, Weapon Finesse (Dagger)
Environment: Any
Organisation: Solitary (Unique)
Challenge Rating: 26
Treasure: Double Standard
Alignment: Neutral
Domains: Dream, Luck, Knowledge
Holy Symbol: A golden circle
Advancement Range: None
Level Adjustment: N/A
Demigod’s Avatar (Su): These statistics represent only the demigod’s avatar. The demigod’s power is almost limitless on its home plane. IF the demigod’s avatar is destroyed on the physical plane, it cannot create another one for 1d4 months. If the avatar is imprisoned, it cannot manifest elsewhere on the plane. Unlike gods, demigods cannot destroy their avatars voluntarily.
Avatars are not affected by critical hits, death from massive injury, poison, paralysis, sleep, disease, or any attack that must target a living subject.
Spell-Like Abilities: Ashumas’s avatar may use any spell from the Dream, Knowledge or Luck domains at will as a spell-like ability (save DC 16 + spell level) caster level 22. The save DCs are charisma-based.
Spells: Ashumas’s avatar can cast divine spells as a 20th level cleric with access to the Dream, Knowledge and Luck domains (save DCs are wisdom-based), and arcane spells as an 18th level wizard (save DCs are intelligence-based). He may select a spell he wants and cast it without needing to prepare any spells; he may apply any metamagic geats he knows as a free action, by casting the spell at the appropriate modified level. He does not need components or foci to cast spells.
Cleric Spells (6 – 8+1 – 7+1 – 7+1 – 7+1 – 6+1 – 5+1 – 5+1 – 5+1 – 2; save DC 20 + spell level).
Wizard Spells (4 – 7 – 7 – 6 – 6 – 6 – 6 – 4 – 3 – 2; save DC 20 + spell level)
Flight (Ex): Ashumas’s avatar can cease or resume flight as a free action.
Immunities (Ex): Ashumas’s avatar is immune to mind-affecting spells and to all divination and illusion spells.
Low-Light vision (Ex): Ashumas’s avatar’s vision in low-light conditions is four times that of a human.
Prophecy (Su): Because of his unique connection to the webs of fate that govern the world, Ashumas’s avatar is always assumed to be under the influence of a foresight spell with himself as the subject (caster level 25).

Equipment: Destiny, Ring of Greater Counterspelling (Time Stop), Amulet of Health +6, Bracers of Armor +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Brooch of Shielding, Cloak of Displacement (Major), Headband of Intellect +6, Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose), Sovereign Glue (against disarm), Universal Solvent, “tinfoil hat”, Ring of Enduring Arcane, Belt of Battle, Blindfold of True Darkness, Boots of Temporal Acceleration.

Destiny (Minor Artifact): Destiny functions like a dagger-sized Luck Blade with 1 wish contained within. In addition, the blade allows the wielder to see moments into the nearest future which always gives him an edge. He is considered to have the Evasion ability and enjoys a +4 insight bonus to armor class, saves, initiative and attack rolls. The wielder also cannot be caught flat-footed.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 01:21 PM
I'm a simple creature. I'd use projected image to shoot him to death with orbs. He'll be able to see through it, but that's pretty much irrelevant.

I'm not seeing a freedom of movement effect in there, either, which is.... probably insta-death at ECL 20.

Jacque
2010-05-04, 04:51 PM
Other than placing obstacles in the way, how do you counter the Orb of Force?

Shiva asori
2010-05-04, 04:57 PM
there's the 4th lvl wizard spell, forceward.

AslanCross
2010-05-04, 05:04 PM
I've created the bad guy for my adventure. If you could look it over and say what you think, I would be very grateful. Again, I mainly seek advice into how to make him more defensive, and also tell me what method you would use to defeat him (the group consists of 5 lvl 20 characters with 760,000gc equipment). I'm open to any changes.


Avatar – Ashumas
Medium Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 22d8+176 (350 hp)
Initiative: +23
Speed: 60 ft., fly 90 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 44 (+6 armor, +11 Dex, +7 natural, +9 deflection, +1 insight), touch 31, flat-footed 33
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+26
Attack: +2 luck blade (dagger) +28 melee (1d4+6, 19-20)
Full Attack: +2 luck blade (dagger) +28/+23/+18/+13 (1d4+6, 19-20)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 9/magic, darkvision 120 ft., fast healing 6, flight, immunities, improved uncanny dodge, low-light vision, prophecy, spell resistance 34, uncanny dodge
Divine Qualities: Demigod’s avatar, divine creation 2, divine favor 1, divine initiative 1, divine knowledge 2, divine protection 3, divine puissance 3, divine telepathy, divine language
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +27, Will +25
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 32, Con 26, Int 31, Wis 31, Cha 23
Skills: Appraise +18, Bluff +18, Concentration +33, Decipher Script +29, Diplomacy +32, Disguise +28 (+30 acting), Gather Information +28, Intimidate +33, Knowledge(arcane) +36, Knowledge(history) +30, Knowledge(religion) +30, Listen +34, Ritual Casting +32, Search +32, Sense Motive +32, Spellcraft +32, Spot +32, Use Magic Device +23
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Improved Spell Capacity (10th:Cleric), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Penetration
Environment: Any
Organisation: Solitary (Unique)
Challenge Rating: 26
Treasure: Double Standard
Alignment: Neutral
Domains: Dream, Luck, Knowledge
Holy Symbol: A golden circle
Advancement Range: None
Level Adjustment: N/A
Demigod’s Avatar (Su): These statistics represent only the demigod’s avatar. The demigod’s power is almost limitless on its home plane. IF the demigod’s avatar is destroyed on the physical plane, it cannot create another one for 1d4 months. If the avatar is imprisoned, it cannot manifest elsewhere on the plane. Unlike gods, demigods cannot destroy their avatars voluntarily.
Avatars are not affected by critical hits, death from massive injury, poison, paralysis, sleep, disease, or any attack that must target a living subject.
Spell-Like Abilities: Ashumas’s avatar may use any spell from the Dream, Knowledge or Luck domains at will as a spell-like ability (save DC 16 + spell level) caster level 22. The save DCs are charisma-based.
Spells: Ashumas’s avatar can cast divine spells as a 20th level cleric with access to the Dream, Knowledge and Luck domains (save DCs are wisdom-based), and arcane spells as an 18th level wizard (save DCs are intelligence-based). He may select a spell he wants and cast it without needing to prepare any spells; he may apply any metamagic geats he knows as a free action, by casting the spell at the appropriate modified level. He does not need components or foci to cast spells.
Cleric Spells (6 – 8+1 – 7+1 – 7+1 – 7+1 – 6+1 – 5+1 – 5+1 – 5+1 – 2; save DC 20 + spell level).
Wizard Spells (4 – 7 – 7 – 6 – 6 – 6 – 6 – 4 – 3 – 2; save DC 20 + spell level)
Flight (Ex): Ashumas’s avatar can cease or resume flight as a free action.
Immunities (Ex): Ashumas’s avatar is immune to mind-affecting spells and to all divination and illusion spells.
Low-Light vision (Ex): Ashumas’s avatar’s vision in low-light conditions is four times that of a human.
Prophecy (Su): Because of his unique connection to the webs of fate that govern the world, Ashumas’s avatar is always assumed to be under the influence of a foresight spell with himself as the subject (caster level 25).

Equipment: Luck Blade (Dagger) w/ 1 wish, Ring of Greater Counterspelling (Time Stop), Amulet of Health +6, Bracers of Armor +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Brooch of Shielding, Cloak of Displacement (Major), Headband of Intellect +6, Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose), Sovereign Glue (against disarm), Universal Solvent, “tinfoil hat”, Ring of Enduring Arcane, Belt of Battle, Blindfold of True Darkness, Boots of Temporal Acceleration.


My immediate reaction is that his DR is completely useless. Your PCs will definitely have magic weapons by now. Give him DR/epic instead (requiring +6 weapons to hurt him).

Unfortunately I'm about to leave for class, so I can't give tactics to beat him yet.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 05:48 PM
His greatest protection is going to be carrying around a nice magical macguffin that Must Not Be Destroyed, because that will stop him from getting MDJ'd and flash-fried.

Runestar
2010-05-04, 06:04 PM
At first glance, his melee attack is too pitiful. Not a problem if you plan on relying primarily on his spellcasting, but just something to keep in mind. You should never be without a +5 weapon (courtesy of greater magic weapon) and a +5 mithral buckler (magic vestment) giving him AC 50.

It is also odd that you did not take weapon finesse, given that your dex is so much higher than your str.

If you need more damage, there is a reserve feat in complete champion which gives +1 damage per lv of highest lv war domain spell (so +9 damage if you keep a 9th lv war domain spell in reserve). Shadow blade (tome of battle) also lets you apply your dex mod to damage. Together, they add as much as +20 damage. This gives you +38 to-hit at 1d4+29. Can still be much better though (eg: persistent divine favour for another +3 to-hit/damage).

Consider giving him more HD (~30), which in turn improves his to-hit to +46 and boosts his other HD-dependent stats. This shouldn't affect his cr (considering that epic monsters tend to have much more).

AC44 isn't that stellar either, nor is 350hp. Your saves aren't that great either. Be sure to keep superior resistance (spell compendium) up, it grants +6 resistance bonus on all saves and lasts 24 hours.

He also has fairly few HD (spells like holy word may prove problematic, though you have greater spell immunity for that).

Instead of ring of counterspells, consider giving him spell stowaway: time stop and/or heal instead. :smallbiggrin:

You will also want some contingencies in place such as fortunate fate (SpC), as well as other long term buffs such as heroes' feast and visions of the future (PHB2).

But all this also mandates that you have some means of countering dispels.

All in all, I think he pales in comparison to a great wyrm red dragon or even a solar!:smalleek:

Jacque
2010-05-05, 03:59 AM
He's the avatar of the Demi-god of fate, so he's always been meant to be a powerful spellcaster instead of a melee fighter. He originally had a +6 keen dagger which I changed to a luck blade to make it more useful for his spellcasting and/or defense.

I know DR 9/magic is useless, but I have to keep it in line with the rest of the avatars from the setting. The damage reduction is decided from his Divine Protection quality which is where his deflection bonus to AC also originates from.

Following some of the good advice I've recieved here, I plan on first letting him summon opponents for the PCs to battle as well as make extensive use of controlling the battlefield. I've become very inspired by the 'Against the Dragon' fight.

Now with all that being said, I will follow the advice of advancing his HDs as it is a splendid way to increase almost all his defensive statistics.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-05, 04:22 AM
While a fight where one person one shots the Big Critter and everyone stands around isn't exactly bounds of fun, long dragged out fights are tedious.
So watch it, this is a fine line, and I have seen the boredom of both.

Eldariel
2010-05-05, 04:27 AM
While a fight where one person one shots the Big Critter and everyone stands around isn't exactly bounds of fun, long dragged out fights are tedious.
So watch it, this is a fine line, and I have seen the boredom of both.

The length itself isn't practically ever the reason for tediousness; it's repetitive length. If you know how to beat something, but need to repeat it a 100 times, it'll get tedious. If you lack meaningful combat options (such as a Fighter-class), it'll get tedious.

If you are a versatile class having to readjust every round as the enemy changes tactics constantly though, marathon fights can be some of the best experiences D&D can offer and generate stories for many years to come, especially if the boss went down in style.


Against the Dragon is an excellent example of a versatile, varying encounter that isn't fast, easy or simple but still remains engaging and interesting due to everything that's going on and the strategic challenge the problem presents and so on. So yeah...length alone isn't a negative factor, long repetition is.

Runestar
2010-05-05, 04:35 AM
If you want some numbers to compare your build against, you may consider looking at the various hell dukes here.

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20071212

Jacque
2010-05-05, 04:40 AM
I've upped his HDs to 30, changed his Luck Blade to a minor artifact and added a few more useful feats (as per the HD increase).

I hope I will be avoiding the tedious prolonged battle by summoning a diverse array of monsters. I also plan on working out a list of spells which Ashumas will cast on himself if he gets the time, so the pace of which the players kill his minions will effect the difficulty of the last encounter.

When raising his HDs I considered raising his spell resistance accordingly. But against a level 20 spellcaster, wouldn't SR 34 be much like the cloak of displacement against a melee fighter? (in other words, making it a 50/50 grief/relief?)

Edit:
Thanks for the link, Runestar, I should have considered comparing to existing bad guys from the start!

Eldariel
2010-05-05, 04:55 AM
When raising his HDs I considered raising his spell resistance accordingly. But against a level 20 spellcaster, wouldn't SR 34 be much like the cloak of displacement against a melee fighter? (in other words, making it a 50/50 grief/relief?)

A level 20 spellcaster can, with few actions, pierce SR of 50 on 1. Simple stunt, really: Cast Assay Spell Resistance [Spell Compendium; level 4 swift action spell]. Now, for round per level, you gain +10 to SR checks against target. Activate Beads of Karma (should already be active) via. UMD or standard means. +4 Caster Level. You have Orange Prism Ioun Stone, Magical Tattoo [Spell Compendium], Ring of Arcane Power [Magic Item Compendium] and maybe Archmage for +1 Spell Power.

Let's say you have another random source like Robe of Arcane Power. Altogether, that's +5 more, for +8 spell power. Then you cast True Casting [Complete Mage; level 1 spell] to give you +10 to piercing Spell Resistance on your next level. Ta-da! +49, and we haven't taken Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration. Or used Spell Enhancer [Spell Compendium]. And this is assuming we're rolling 1. And all the actions? That's what Time Stop is for.

Though really, Beads is eminently activable before you face the adversary thanks to Divinations, and it's only two swift actions to cast Assay Spell Resistance and Quickened True Casting, so you may not even need that.

Or you could just use no-SR spells, like Orb of Force, Acid X, etc. You can deal damage/make things fall down just fine without piercing Spell Resistance. Or you could focus on disabling the guy with stuff like Solid Fog, X Clouds (generates concealment; no magical vision really works through mundane concealment), Walls of Force, Dispels on his items chained through all of them to disable them for a few turns, or some such. Or you could Gate in a Solar and Wish or something. Iono. You could just Shapechange into a Solar (for example) yourself and commence ass-kicking with few other buff spells.

Though frankly, Solar is pretty underpowered for what you could be doing; doubling up your actions or such seems more like it, so turn into e.g. Spell Weaver [MM2] or Chronotyryn [Fiend Folio] or some such.


Never compare spellcasters to warriors; they play a completely different game. Warrior hits things while spellcaster can debilitate things or summon things or buff or blow up things at his whim, depending on which of his prepared spells he's using. He can do all those in a given encounter should he so desire.

Honestly, if Spell Resistance were a 50/50 vs. casters, the game would be quite a bit more fair. Turns out casters can screw the rules though, especially on high levels. In other words, no, SR 34 wouldn't be much more than extra swift action expended for a caster; even a Core-caster would be able to pierce it practically every time (Greater Spell Penetration [very useful in Core], Caster Level +6 meaning +30 base check making it on 4 or less). And frankly, neither is Displacement anymore as warriors have access to Pierce Magical Concealment, True Seeing (from magic items) and so on. In general, you'll want more advanced protections on higher levels.

Runestar
2010-05-05, 05:02 AM
But against a level 20 spellcaster, wouldn't SR 34 be much like the cloak of displacement against a melee fighter? (in other words, making it a 50/50 grief/relief?)

Again, it depends on the resources your party has access to (which you should be in a better position to gauge than anyone else). For example, past mid lv, some wizards get to access assay spell resistance and arcane mastery, allowing them to overcome sr = caster lv + 20 with ease. Some spells even ignore sr altogether. My advice would be that epic lvs, don't be afraid to pull your punches or underestimate what your PCs are capable of.

Be careful of summoning as well - the highest cr you can bring in short of epic spellcasting is what...cr12-13? I don't think they will be anything more than difficult terrain against your party. I suppose you can research an epic spell which brings in demon/devil prince aspects or something. Should be funny - demogorgon and asmodeous (or at least their aspects) fighting side by side against the PCs...

Jacque
2010-05-05, 05:22 AM
I've found it difficult to judge how much effort my players will be putting into this game. We've always allowed all published books with the gentlemen's agreement that none of us will break the game.

It hasn't been a problem earlier, as they've levelled up with the task, but noone seems to want to play the spellcasters for this adventure, as they dont want to go through with the hassle of reading up on all the spells and magic items a level 20 spellcaster with 760,000gc should have. That should be all fine and dandy as long as everyone stays on the same level of cheese thus making SR 34 a strong enough obstacle, but it doesn't take more than one of the spellcasters making a google search and stumble upon Eldariel's post (not that I blame Eldariel) to learn a few tricks or two.

I'm quite satisfied with the way he is now. I will probably add some kind of Freedom of Movement magic item, but all his other weaknesses (My thoughts especially goes out to the lack of elemental protection) will have to be mended with spells. I have yet to check up on the summon capabilities and I might have to cheat (or research an epic spell) to make it more interesting. I also found a Mob template on this forum a few days ago which I would like to put into use here. It seems like a good way to include the cult surrounding him while also being manageable.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-05, 05:47 AM
The spell Ray Deflection in Spell Compendium makes you completely immune to ranged touch attacks, they're automatically deflected harmlessly away. That beats the Orb spells, Enervation, Ray of Light, and many of the other no-save-I-win spells since most require a ranged touch attack. It even has a Personal range so you can make it Persistent.

Togo
2010-05-05, 06:07 AM
The key to making a decent fight is to match the capabilities of the monster(s) to the capabilities of the party. What people are advising you on is what they or their characters would do against such a threat. What your party will make of it is another matter.

One useful key to making a fight interesting is pacing. You don't want the fight to last forever, or the party will start to get frustrated (or die like flies). Similarly, a big bad villain who goes down to a one-shot is a problem.

I tend to use mooks to string things out a bit. A mook needs to be something the party can't ignore, either because it's in the way (hard at high level), or because it's too dangerous to keep it around. At low level they can be speed bumps but at higher level you need to be more creative. I'd suggest creatures that either have some kind of touch-based special attack (e.g.lantern archons) or creatures that can neutralise the party members you're most worried about. If you're worried about wizards, a few lower level spellcasting creatures that have the right feats for counterspelling. If you're worried about close combat, some suitable grapple monster with improved grab can slow people down, and there are some specialised creatures that can get a grapple without a grapple check, meaning they aren't entirely negated by freedom of movement.

The key is to look for creatures that won't raise the CR too much, but can't be ignored. If you make the mooks a genuine threat to the lives of the PCs, then the chances are high that you'll end up reducing the appearance of power of your villain. Mooks also give any sub-optimal PCs safe targets to attack, so that they feel they're contributing to the outcome.

As for making the main villain durable, you might want to look into getting as many immunities as possible. Immunity or resistance to paralysis, poison, insanity, instant death, various elements and so on all go a long way to avoiding the combat ending on a single failed save, particularly at high level. You might also want to check out the various pact spells (death pact, stalwart pact, see Spell Compendium) that are suitable for an avatar of fate, don't take up an action because they trigger automatically, and should keep your guy going for another round or two.

You might also want to look for planar effects that might help you.

Finally, look up the more esoteric and high CR inevitables, and see what they do. There's one that specialises in those that fiddle with time, and another that specialises in those that seek to cheat death and a third that covers those who defy the gods. See if you can get some ideas for how they come across, and maybe steal some of the special abilities.

Elder Evils has some tips on how to play and stat end-of-campaign villains.

Final word? How epic the fight is will depend far more on how you play than what your guy's stats are. Make sure whatever it does, and however effective it is, it looks and feels dramatic.