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stenver
2010-05-02, 04:53 AM
Invisibility
Illusion (Glamer)
Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes (harmless, object)

Wait, does this mean that others get will save check against invisibility. AND spell resistance?

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-02, 04:54 AM
Invisibility
Illusion (Glamer)
Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes (harmless, object)

Wait, does this mean that others get will save check against invisibility. AND spell resistance?

No. It means that if the person you target with invisibility has SR, you have to check against it. If they don't want to receive the spell, they get a will save to negate it.

If something is invisible, they don't get saves or SR to see you.

stenver
2010-05-02, 05:38 AM
Good. Its still one of the most useful spells in the whole D&D universe

Lysander
2010-05-02, 07:06 AM
There are very few likely scenarios where you would want to make an unwilling person invisible. I can think of something convoluted like you're hiding from guards with a kidnapped prisoner and you have a silence spell on them and you want to make both you and them invisible...it's possible but almost never comes up.

SilverStar
2010-05-02, 07:16 AM
I had an instance when I wished to make a disarmed enemy's weapon invisible.

The rogue could not Sleight of Hand a Huge greataxe into his pocket, you see.

Magic items get a save....

stenver
2010-05-02, 11:05 AM
yes, i believe, there will come occasions, where it is needed.

But i was scared for some time that my most beloved spell is actually a will saving crap. Lucky for me, it wasnt. Invisibility FTW

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-02, 11:16 AM
There are also situations where you're affected by a spell, and you don't know what it is, or where it's coming from. For example, your invisible ally tries to make you invisible. In such situations, you may resist, without knowledge that it's a beneficial effect.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-02, 11:33 AM
I had an instance when I wished to make a disarmed enemy's weapon invisible.

The rogue could not Sleight of Hand a Huge greataxe into his pocket, you see.

Magic items get a save....

Couldn't you could pick it up and then cast invisibility on it, at which point it only saves if you want it to?

I'm not sure on that.

Also it takes a move action, I suppose.

I'm not helping.

obnoxious
sig

Keld Denar
2010-05-02, 12:47 PM
Invis is good, but its not as good as most people think. Check this out from the rules in Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility):


A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check.

So, if you break in to Joe the Commoner's house under the cover of invisibility, there is still a chance he'll notice that you are there and raise an alarm. That DC is static, as well, which means that at higher levels, say, under the cover of Greater Invis, there is a good chance just about everything will notice your presence.

My players found this out the hard way when trying to break into a church. DC20 Spot check + Invis Purge later, and things got REAL awkward.

Greenish
2010-05-02, 12:57 PM
Invis is good, but its not as good as most people think. Check this out from the rules in Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility):



So, if you break in to Joe the Commoner's house under the cover of invisibility, there is still a chance he'll notice that you are there and raise an alarm. That DC is static, as well, which means that at higher levels, say, under the cover of Greater Invis, there is a good chance just about everything will notice your presence.

My players found this out the hard way when trying to break into a church. DC20 Spot check + Invis Purge later, and things got REAL awkward.That's why you Hide.

Prodan
2010-05-02, 12:59 PM
That's why you Hide.

Or start stabbing.

Keld Denar
2010-05-02, 01:06 PM
Only works if your foe is trying to pin-point your location. If they are just trying to detect your presence, its only a DC20 and nothing changes that.

Optimystik
2010-05-02, 02:22 PM
Couldn't you could pick it up and then cast invisibility on it, at which point it only saves if you want it to?

I'm not sure on that.

Also it takes a move action, I suppose.

I'm not helping.

obnoxious
sig

As with most uncertain situations, it would depend on your DM. There aren't many wizards out there strong enough to pick up a Huge Greataxe with one hand, and picking it up with two means you can't perform the somatic component to turn it invisible.

crazedloon
2010-05-02, 02:23 PM
Only works if your foe is trying to pin-point your location. If they are just trying to detect your presence, its only a DC20 and nothing changes that.

but by that logic a characters should be able to detect a hidden character by a dc 20 check. If the invis character is actively hiding the DC would become the hide dc (i.e. to notice the hidden character)

A very very strict RAW would seem to support your thoughts but by extrapolating I think it is within the rules to accept the hide DC effecting the notice DC

Prodan
2010-05-02, 02:29 PM
Perhaps the DC for detecting an invisible creature is because the invisibility spell produces subtle visual distortions in your general area, which is something only cover would conceal?

Greenish
2010-05-02, 02:36 PM
Perhaps the DC for detecting an invisible creature is because the invisibility spell produces subtle visual distortions in your general area, which is something only cover would conceal?Invisibility makes you easier to spot?

Well, that's in line with "Darkness" creating illumination.

WildPyre
2010-05-02, 02:44 PM
As a DM I'd ditch the DC 20 check and go for move silently check instead. Unless the player was doing something like moving furniture and making spooky ghost noises the DC 20 thing seems silly to me.

ericgrau
2010-05-02, 02:56 PM
Invisibility makes you easier to spot?

Well, that's in line with "Darkness" creating illumination.
No, the DC to spot you without the invisibility is zero, regardless of your hide modifier. Those DCs only applies out in the open. When hiding behind cover or behind concealment, invisibility gives you a +20 to +30 bonus to your hide check. The DC is to indirectly notice the presence of an invisible creature: Dust kicked up, etc. You still can't see him and he still gets concealment. Finding his square adds another 20 to the DC (and he still gets concealment) otherwise you only get a general area.

Unless you have certain special abilities you can't hide out in the open anyway, so good luck getting the party through the front doors of the church even if your hide modifier is +100. Maybe 1 or 2 PCs will PrC into shadowdancer, but getting the whole party through is right out w/o using invisibility.

Eldariel
2010-05-02, 03:06 PM
Unless you have certain special abilities you can't hide out in the open anyway, so good luck getting the party through the front doors of the church even if your hide modifier is +100. Maybe 1 or 2 PCs will PrC into shadowdancer, but getting the whole party through is right out w/o using invisibility.

You can get HiPS through few sources, but generally it's more convenient to wait until it's dark enough that you have Concealment to Hide in. It's really the Move Silently that's the bigger problem.

Keld Denar
2010-05-02, 03:06 PM
but by that logic a characters should be able to detect a hidden character by a dc 20 check. If the invis character is actively hiding the DC would become the hide dc (i.e. to notice the hidden character)

A very very strict RAW would seem to support your thoughts but by extrapolating I think it is within the rules to accept the hide DC effecting the notice DC

Hey, I'm not making up the rules, mearly revealing a rule that is VERY OFTEN overlooked...here is the entire quotation:


Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.


As you can see, there are 2 different conditions when interacting with invisible creatures. There is "detection", in which the enemy knows that there is an invisible foe present, but not where. Then there is "pin-point", which is determining the exact 5' square(s) that the invisible foe occupys. Detection is reachable in one of 2 ways, a Spot check vs DC20 (30 if they aren't moving), or a Listen check vs Move Silent.

If you are trying to pin-point, thats when the +20 modifier comes into play. Thats MUCH harder.

Greenish
2010-05-02, 03:07 PM
No, the DC to spot you without the invisibility is zero, regardless of your hide modifier. That DC only applies out in the open. When hiding invisibility gives you a +20 to +30 bonus to your hide check. The DC is to indirectly notice the presence of an invisible creature. Dust kicked up, etc. You still can't see him and he still gets concealment. Finding his square adds another 20 to the DC (and he still gets concealment) otherwise you only get a general area.I was just pointing out how absurd Keld Denar's claim was (doesn't mean it's not the RAW though).

Unless you have certain special abilities you can't hide out in the open anyway, so good luck getting the party through the front doors of the church even if your hide modifier is +100. Maybe 1 or 2 PCs will PrC into shadowdancer, but getting the whole party through is right out w/o using invisibility.Um, I fail to see how this is relevant to anything.

stenver
2010-05-03, 09:07 AM
I consider this RAW rule absurd and will gladly overlook it.

Unless the opponents are REALLY alert, they will take 10 on their spot check.

I think it is very sensible to add invisibility to hide, even when standing in plain sight. It would assume that player has cover(IE invisible) and failing a hide check when invisible suggests that the opponent noticed footsteps or such.

I would consider an NPC cleric who is praying in church, hears nothing but then gets a HUNCH that something is watching him and casting invisibility purge to see, if he was right... extremely paranoid NPC. But, there are paranoids everywhere i guess.

Most of the NPC would probably just look around a few seconds and maybe get active spot and listen checks instead of passive ones. But casting a spell? Paranoid.

Getting a hunch that something is there, is rather a move silent vs listen check.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-03, 01:00 PM
I think it is very sensible to add invisibility to hide, even when standing in plain sight. It would assume that player has cover(IE invisible) and failing a hide check when invisible suggests that the opponent noticed footsteps or such.

So does the RAW:
Concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment)
You can use concealment to make a Hide check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Hide check.
...
An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Hide checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Hide checks when not moving.

It's still only a DC 20 spot check to figure out that something invisible is moving around within 30' of you. Even mundane creatures like humans can detect things non-visually.

obnoxious
sig

stenver
2010-05-03, 01:02 PM
great , then the hunch thing is really just a lame idea from them.

DonEsteban
2010-05-03, 02:41 PM
What I always wondered: What happens if you successfully disbelieve invisibility (or greater invis., for that matter).

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 02:44 PM
What I always wondered: What happens if you successfully disbelieve invisibility (or greater invis., for that matter).

You don't. Disbelief only applies to certain types of illusions. Changed from earlier editions I believe.