Potpourri Creation Contest Chat Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

DragoonWraith

2010-06-16, 10:14 PM

I can whip out a quick mini-PEACH
I really, really appreciate it!

First off: whoa. This totally changes the way the base class plays >.> I dunno, seems to reach a little far for substitution levels, and into the area of alternate class features, but hey, this is for homebrew, why not.
Yeah, I was going to do it as a base class, but the more I thought about it, the more it was like "this doesn't sound very different from a Warlock..." and then I saw this thread and it kind of clicked. Personally, I think it works very, very well.

Eldritch Claws: This is really very good. I mean, you suddenly have a melee weapon with damage that scales really well, and you can also stick eldritch essence invocations on here. This probably makes the Cabal Warlock one of the better melee classes out there (short of ToB.) Especially since I have two of these, and a ton of secondary natural attacks that do the same amount of damage, and iterative attacks... wow. I guess this isn't that much worse than a warlock taking eldritch glaive (excepting full BAB)... but this is a really sudden shift into uber melee territory. Definitely outclasses any core melee-ers.
The core melee sucks, so I don't care about that. Being on par with Tome of Battle is more what I'm going for. However, I'm not sure I agree with your assessments of this. One, there are not that many natural attacks; if you take all of them, you get 7, which is equivalent to a TWF rogue, and less than a Totemist could do. The secondaries, for the most part, deal half damage, also. And natural attacks don't get iteratives. Add in the loss of the touch attack, and I don't think this is much stronger than Eldritch Glaive.

Fiendish Growths: Watch the wording in the paragraph before the block of growths. You call them Fiendish Shapes a couple of times.
Oops. That was the old name.

EDIT: Fixed, I think. Don't see any remaining mentions of Shapes.

The growths themselves vary in good-ness. I would probably go Sting over tail for reach and AoOs, that pretty much beats out a fairly limited minor AoE.
I dunno, the Tail has an opportunity to do 3x damage (hitting three targets), while Sting will never do more than 1x. That's pretty significant.

Why does Bite do half damage? Because it's secondary?
Precisely. Since you now can do Claw, Claw, Bite on a full-attack, the Bite's not as good.

Also: most bite attacks do piercing, bludgeoning and slashing damage.
Oops, will fix.

EDIT: Fixed.

Just a note. I'm kind of up in the air on Bite vs. Horns. Moar full attack vs. 2x damage on a charge. I'd probably take Bite over Horns more often than not.
You can, you know, take both, if you wanted. But yeah, I think that's a pretty fair one.

Tentacles wins hands down vs. Wings. I've been able to fly since 7th~ level with invocations, and I get two more attacks with 15ft reach. Wings really fall short here.
Wings get you two attacks as well, and also Ex flight, as opposed to Fell Flight's Sp flight. I'd think that does make a difference. On the other hand, yeah, I probably went overboard on the Tentacles. I could either halve their damage, reduce them back down to 10 ft., or I could up the Wings to full damage. Also, the Flight should probably be as good as Fell Flight, huh? Thoughts?

EDIT: Reduced Tentacle range to 10 ft., upped Wing damage to full, and swapped 40 ft. Flight speed (Average) for Land speed + 10 ft. Flight speed (Good). That would make it marginally better than Fell Flight at all times.

Spines is really underwhelming for my one Dark Growth. I mean, it's not bad by any means. Reactive abilities are a little underwhelming in general. Still... I'd pick it up. Punishing the dragon for full-attacking me is nice.
I will probably add another Dark, but yeah, considering how Robilar's Gambit is considered rather good, I figured this would be as well.

One other note: They're always active? That's going to make social situations pretty awkward. Just going through town at a high enough level I'll have tentacles, giant teeth, and a 10ft stinger on me. Are they supposed to be physical growths or like, eldritch energies?
Physical growths, and yes, this is intentional. Look at the image! The exact social impact will vary, though, of course.

Really, you're gaining a TON of stuff with these levels and giving up... ranged attacks and blast shape invocations? This might be way TOO good for a substitution level. Why play base warlock anymore? This is strictly better in every way.
You're giving up touch attacks, which is frankly massive. I feel like Eldritch Glaive works out to be about as good as this.

The rest of the abilities are fine, make sense, and feel right for sub. levels. It's a nice choice between Detect Magic and pumping Will saves and that kind of thing.
Yeah, I figured those would be fine. The only one I wasn't sure of was the Carapace; +Con NA seems kinda weak compared to taking 10 on UMD, which is, ya know, huge. Fiendish Summoning is also rather good, but Imbue Item is great and the only reason Warlocks manage to be Tier 3, so... losing that is a very big deal.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-16, 10:45 PM

I intend to, once again, PEACH everyone, but since Hyooz was nice enough to PEACH mine, he's going first. Considering that they're only substitution levels and there aren't very many entries at this point, this probably won't take very long.

Warforged Druid - Hyooz
First, I love the idea of a Warforged Druid. I played a Warforged Totemist once that was very interesting.

Hit Dice - Why the better HD? That... doesn't really seem to follow from the rest of the abilities.

Natural Metal Body - I really like how the Druid loses some of his knowledge of nature and survival for this, shows how the Warforged is not as familiar with the natural world. I really like this.

Clockwork Wild Shape - My only concern is that the ability that takes less time is the much better version of the ability. That seems very strange to me. Also, it's a pretty significant augmentation to Wild Shape without losing anything. On the flavor end, though, this is excellent, I really like it.

Natural Weapon Arsenal - Awesome. But I do feat it will be abused. Giving up Venom Immunity seems... a little silly, considering that Warforged are already immune to poison, but then to retain that feature when it's pointless is even dumber, so that gets a thumbs up.

Conclusion
Ultimately, the Warforged Druid is better than your average Druid. But then I suppose the -2 Wisdom offsets that, huh? Yeah, that seems to work out nicely, this is pretty good. I like it.

Warforged Barbarian - volthawk
An amusing, and possibly terrifying concept, heh!

Construct Toughness - This is effectively Con +4 all the time (well, except it doesn't affect Fort saves or Concentration). That's a pretty good deal. Considering you're... not really losing anything to get this, and Warforged have Con +2 to begin with, I do find this feature rather confusing.

Heavy Armor - Those... are two very good feats for any Warforged. You can't even qualify for Improved Fortification at 1st level, it requires BAB +6. I could see a lot of Warforged dipping this just for those. Still, giving up Fast Movement means giving up Pounce, so I'm not sure... I dunno. Those are very good feats.

Resilient - Uhm. Losing Trap Sense +1 for AC/DR +1? Yeah, that's rather overpowered.

Impenetrable Body - Well, this makes sense and I like this, but... you have so much DR.

Conclusion
It's overpowered. You get much better benefits than the standard Barbarian features you're replacing.

Hyooz

2010-06-16, 10:51 PM

Still, just comparing what you get and what you lose from the warlock gets pretty scary. We give up range and touch attacks (which ARE good, but with your BAB, even with the Glaive, not that good) for: d12 HD, full BAB, and access to touch attack shenanigans that make the totemist cry. And I have all the fun damage upping shenanigans full-on melee-ers have. If we decide to get really cheatsy with stuff like Amulets of Wraithstrike and Bloodwind... and hold a sword to also get iterative attacks (yeah, lots of penalties, I know)

A dip in Soul Eater makes this one of the most terrifying things out there.

Oh, also: Do items that would boost eldritch blast damage also work here? What about spells like Greater Mighty Wallop or Magic Fang/Weapon?

Hyooz

2010-06-16, 10:58 PM

Huh... I thought I gave it the same HD. Will fix that. Lol.

Clockwork Wild Shape is the way it is because, well, that's how I could make it make the most sense flavor-wise, and really, you're probably going to use the better Wild Shape anyway, so instead of just making them always robot animals, I figured I'd include classic Shape for the purposes of pretending to be a real-type animal. It is strictly better than normal wild shape, but not that much better, in my mind. So I'm ok with it.

I agree that Venom Immunity is a little silly, but I only had so many choices >.> Really, I don't see that much room for abuse, since you were just that animal anyway. This just lets you use what you already have access to in a different way. There might be some way to trick this the hell out I'm not thinking of, but I can't stop everything. As long as it's not overtly broken, I think it's ok.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-16, 11:42 PM

Still, just comparing what you get and what you lose from the warlock gets pretty scary.
OK, lesse.

We give up range and touch attacks (which ARE good, but with your BAB, even with the Glaive, not that good)
I think you underestimate Touch attacks. The difference between average Touch ACs and average ACs is greater than the difference between full BAB and 3/4 BAB at any given level. Seriously. The only advantages of a higher BAB are more iteratives (which aren't getting your Eldritch Claws' damage), and able to sacrifice more attack to Power Attack (which is a bad trade for Natural Weapons since none count as two-handers). Power Attack with Eldritch Glaive > Power Attack with Eldritch Claws.

d12 HD
You get four d12s, the rest of your levels are still d6s. If you take all four levels, this averages to +15 HP (+6 at 1st since 1st is maximized, average of +3 on 2nd, 4th, and 12th) versus the normal Warlock. And you're in melee.

full BAB
Yes, it's pretty good. Not as good as Touch Attacks.

access to touch attack shenanigans that make the totemist cry.
Wha huh? How?

And I have all the fun damage upping shenanigans full-on melee-ers have. If we decide to get really cheatsy with stuff like Amulets of Wraithstrike and Bloodwind... and hold a sword to also get iterative attacks (yeah, lots of penalties, I know)
An Amulet of Wraithstrike doesn't exist and while massively under-priced by the custom item guidelines, those are specifically guidelines and Wraithstrike is an excellent example of exactly the kind of spell the guidelines state are not appropriate for the usual guidelines. Bloodwind the same. Plus, a Totemist could use either of those just as easily as you, and make more attacks.

A dip in Soul Eater makes this one of the most terrifying things out there.
Not familiar with that class.

Oh, also: Do items that would boost eldritch blast damage also work here? What about spells like Greater Mighty Wallop or Magic Fang/Weapon?
Magic Fang, yes. Magic Weapon, no. Greater Mighty Wallop, I believe that means manufactured weapons and wouldn't work on natural weapons, though I could be wrong. But since your claws do the same damage no matter your size, advancing them a size category does nothing, so that doesn't really matter, does it? Items that advance Eldritch Blast, I'm tentatively saying yes, since the current wording states that anything that advances Eldritch Blast damage advances Eldritch Claws instead. I'm not familiar with those items; I know they exist, but don't know the details. Where are they?

Huh... I thought I gave it the same HD. Will fix that. Lol.
Yeah, I had to double check myself.

Clockwork Wild Shape is the way it is because, well, that's how I could make it make the most sense flavor-wise, and really, you're probably going to use the better Wild Shape anyway, so instead of just making them always robot animals, I figured I'd include classic Shape for the purposes of pretending to be a real-type animal. It is strictly better than normal wild shape, but not that much better, in my mind. So I'm ok with it.
I'm just leery of giving anything extra to the Druid, I suppose. The Racial bonuses of the Warforged are rather good. Still, I basically agree with you on this.

I agree that Venom Immunity is a little silly, but I only had so many choices >.> Really, I don't see that much room for abuse, since you were just that animal anyway. This just lets you use what you already have access to in a different way. There might be some way to trick this the hell out I'm not thinking of, but I can't stop everything. As long as it's not overtly broken, I think it's ok.
Yeah, I agree with this too.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-17, 12:04 AM

Tibbit Beguiler - Stompy
As soon as I saw this, I wanted to make a Beguiler (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84366.jpg) Beguiler, heh. This is really awesome.

Fluff looks good, if a little silly. A little silly seems appropriate.

Emotion Magic - what about highest level spells and bonus spells? Beguilers get both of those from Int, and unless you specify that they also change, you're introducing MAD here that you probably don't want.

Anyway, I like this change, assuming you meant to change all of it.

Look at the kitty! - OK, this is pretty good. Not sure about losing both Cloaked Casting and Surprise Casting to this, though.

Meow Meow Meow Meow - Can you provide material components in cat form? Seems plausible, but you seem to conspicuously leave it out...

Undeniable - Excellent, was hoping to see this. However, the "sources" at the very end of the description ("provided by these sources") is really ambiguous. I would just say that "such creatures get a bonus of 10 minus your CHA modifier (minimum 0) to any saves against your Mind-Affecting spells."

Stompy

2010-06-17, 07:59 AM

Tibbit Beguiler - Stompy
As soon as I saw this, I wanted to make a Beguiler (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84366.jpg) Beguiler, heh. This is really awesome.

Why thank you! :smallsmile: I shall have to return the PEACH favor. (I'm not stopping anyone from making Beguiler Beguiler. :smalltongue:)

Fluff looks good, if a little silly. A little silly seems appropriate.

It can't be helped. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8671276#post8671276)

Emotion Magic - what about highest level spells and bonus spells? Beguilers get both of those from Int, and unless you specify that they also change, you're introducing MAD here that you probably don't want.

Anyway, I like this change, assuming you meant to change all of it.

Yup. Didn't want it to be MAD between INT and CHA at all.

Look at the kitty! - OK, this is pretty good. Not sure about losing both Cloaked Casting and Surprise Casting to this, though.

They are honestly both synergistic abilities, and I felt like both had to go. In the first draft I had another ability to replace Suprise Casting, CHA to will instead of WIS and CHA to unarmored AC. The first is a feat and the second is too much in the realm of monk to my liking though.

Meow Meow Meow Meow - Can you provide material components in cat form? Seems plausible, but you seem to conspicuously leave it out...

I know. I am still trying to figure out the best way to go about that. (I would like to leave them out entirely, but DnD rules and capture sequences bar me from doing that.)

Undeniable - Excellent, was hoping to see this. However, the "sources" at the very end of the description ("provided by these sources") is really ambiguous. I would just say that "such creatures get a bonus of 10 minus your CHA modifier (minimum 0) to any saves against your Mind-Affecting spells."

Sorry, that might be the MTG talking. I am going to fix that wording, but I can't absolutely say mind-affecting because I believe the are enchantment spells that aren't mind-affecting? (Final rebuke?) I may be wrong on that though.

EDIT: Here's the PEACH. I am relatively new to it (and warlock) though.

There is a little known cult of warlocks that refers to themselves only as "the Cabal"...

I saw this, and thought, "Oh no, DW went crazy homebrew again." Not that it's a bad thing.

Anyway, love the flavor. I do have one question/comment regarding it:

The alignment for warlock is, any chaotic or evil. Should that change to CE? Within one step of CE? Honestly, I could see LE devils trying to harness the power to use against demons, or a CG pariah who's cursed into the class, though I'm not sure if this is your intention or not.

Hit Die: d12.

At the very least, the meleeing warlock can take a punch now :)

Table 1: Cabal Warlock Substitution Levels
{table="head"]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Invocations Known
4th | +4 | +4 | +0 | +0 | Fiendish Carapace | 3[/table]

The saves should be +4/+1/+1 /nitpick

Base Attack Bonus and Saving Throws - A Warlock who takes the 1st level Cabal Warlock substitution level treats all levels in Warlock as having a full Base Attack Bonus progression (as Fighter), and also has a good Fortitude saving throw but a poor Will saving throw. Note that any Warlock who does not take the 1st level of Cabal Warlock substitution levels will have a different base attack bonus and different saves from those listed on the table above.

I'm a big fan of ACFs that do a radical change, as opposed to ones that are like "swap this feat for this one." The Raptoran Fighter has this problem in my mind.

Eldritch Claws (Ex)

Can't comment on the warlock essences on them, but honestly, I compared a lvl 8 this and a lvl 8 (girallion arms based) totemist, with the warlock (claws only) doing an average 6 damage more per full-attack. However, the totemist had pounce. The totemist also had ~ 4 more AC, while the warlock had invocations. Everything else was about the same, HP, relative saves, relative skills, etc.

I cannot definitively say that the class is broken; and if I do, It'll probably be either wraithstrike's fault, or the darkness/see in darkness combo's fault. (I also don't know how bad a glaivelock gets.)

My other comment, relating to Hyooz, is that does the eldritch blast damage stack onto the claws from items? PrCs? (Hellfire PAUNCH?!) I know Hyooz had already asked, but it is an important point. In the regards of items giving eldritch blast damage, there is a vest (?) that can either add 1d6 or 2d6 to eldritch blasts, as well as a rod that can spend charges to do more eldritch blast damage in Complete Arcane.

The other ACFs

As to the rest of the abilities, I like them. The CON to natural armor I thought was excellent in keeping with this ACF going into melee. I am not sure power-wise how much of an impact a "permanent" summon has.

Hyooz's comments

Hmm. Soul eater says that a (natural?) attack that hits someone gives a negative level. Dipping Soul Eater is not a class fault, but is Soul Eater's fault. (The same can be said for wraithstrike; it makes classes broken because it IS broken.)

I believe there IS a wraithstrike amulet, called the Heartstrike Amulet (may have the name wrong) in MiC. It gives wraithstrike 3/day, and is horribly underpriced/overpowered.

Glimbur

2010-06-17, 10:51 AM

I was going to worry about an Elan Cabal warlock with Rapidstrike, but that's a significant investment of race choice, and a feat, to get one more attack. Probably not a big deal, but worth thinking about.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-17, 11:07 AM

Why thank you! :smallsmile: I shall have to return the PEACH favor. (I'm not stopping anyone from making Beguiler Beguiler. :smalltongue:)
Hehe, I was going to, but then realized I didn't really know much about Beguilers, or, well, Beguilers, so heh.

It can't be helped. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8671276#post8671276)
Haha.

Yup. Didn't want it to be MAD between INT and CHA at all.
Then yeah, you also need to change the highest level spell he can cast to Cha and his Bonus Spells to Cha.

They are honestly both synergistic abilities, and I felt like both had to go. In the first draft I had another ability to replace Suprise Casting, CHA to will instead of WIS and CHA to unarmored AC. The first is a feat and the second is too much in the realm of monk to my liking though.
Yeah, that seems reasonable.

I know. I am still trying to figure out the best way to go about that. (I would like to leave them out entirely, but DnD rules and capture sequences bar me from doing that.)
Personally, I feel that spell components have always been a joke (a bad one at that), and one shouldn't worry too much about the non-costly ones. How about if they had a spell component pouch in mannish form, it melds into them when they become a kitty and they can use non-costly components automatically?

Sorry, that might be the MTG talking. I am going to fix that wording, but I can't absolutely say mind-affecting because I believe the are enchantment spells that aren't mind-affecting? (Final rebuke?) I may be wrong on that though.
I'm rather sure there isn't. The definition of the Enchantment school specifically says that they all are. Of course, Mind Blank doesn't block "Enchantments", just all mind-affecting effects.

EDIT: Here's the PEACH. I am relatively new to it (and warlock) though.
Don't worry about it! I really appreciate it.

I saw this, and thought, "Oh no, DW went crazy homebrew again." Not that it's a bad thing.
Heh. Honestly, I think the Cabal itself is the weakest part of this.

Anyway, love the flavor. I do have one question/comment regarding it:

The alignment for warlock is, any chaotic or evil. Should that change to CE? Within one step of CE? Honestly, I could see LE devils trying to harness the power to use against demons, or a CG pariah who's cursed into the class, though I'm not sure if this is your intention or not.
I believe I addressed this in the "Becoming a..." section - the Cabal doesn't honestly care what you do with the power. Therefore, they don't care what your alignment is.

At the very least, the meleeing warlock can take a punch now :)
Heh, it's only +15 HP by level 12. Nice, but not amazing.

The saves should be +4/+1/+1 /nitpick
D'oh, right.

I'm a big fan of ACFs that do a radical change, as opposed to ones that are like "swap this feat for this one." The Raptoran Fighter has this problem in my mind.
Yeah, it seemed right to me.

Can't comment on the warlock essences on them, but honestly, I compared a lvl 8 this and a lvl 8 (girallion arms based) totemist, with the warlock (claws only) doing an average 6 damage more per full-attack. However, the totemist had pounce. The totemist also had ~ 4 more AC, while the warlock had invocations. Everything else was about the same, HP, relative saves, relative skills, etc.
The Totemist has good Ref saves and 4 + Int skills, though they probably don't matter much. Just having UMD on the skill list is a point in the Warlock's favor. Pounce is a very big deal, but the Warlock could have been a Barbarian 1/Warlock 7 and had Pounce, without any loss of damage, so... Thanks for running the numbers.

I think I'll make him start with just one Claw, and add a... Lesser? Growth to pair it with another. How does this sound?

EDIT: Moved the second Claw attack to Greater, reduced the damage of the Tentacles and the Wings to half Eldritch Claw damage. This means at the cost of 5/7 Invocations, the Cabalist has a +8/+8/+3/+3/+3/+3/+3 attack sequence at 11th, dealing 6d6+Str/6d6+Str/3d6+½Str/3d6+½Str/3d6+½Str/3d6+½Str/3d6+½Str damage. If all of those hit, it averages to 140 damage, assuming maximized Str, in a variety of types. It's a very heavy investment, but it's also a ton of damage. I'm not sure about this.

Couldn't actually do that, not enough Greater Invocations at that level. It would be 15th before they could do all of that, and that means giving up a Dark invocation...

I cannot definitively say that the class is broken; and if I do, It'll probably be either wraithstrike's fault, or the darkness/see in darkness combo's fault. (I also don't know how bad a glaivelock gets.)
Well, the Glaivelock at 8 would deal the same 2x4d6 damage, but not add his Str modifier and he'd have a -5 attack penalty on the second. On the other hand, they'd be touch attacks. Power Attack would also let you ditch attack for damage at a 1:2 ratio, which could pretty quickly overcome the Cabalist's Str bonus, I'd think (assuming max Str at start, a +2 Str race, adding Str at 4 and 8, and a +2 Str item, you have 26, or +8, which means a -4 for Power Attack.

My other comment, relating to Hyooz, is that does the eldritch blast damage stack onto the claws from items? PrCs? (Hellfire PAUNCH?!) I know Hyooz had already asked, but it is an important point. In the regards of items giving eldritch blast damage, there is a vest (?) that can either add 1d6 or 2d6 to eldritch blasts, as well as a rod that can spend charges to do more eldritch blast damage in Complete Arcane.
Ah, Hellfire Blast I hadn't considered. Uhm. I may do Cabal substitution levels for the Hellfire Warlock, then, because that would get ridiculous. The Rod seems less than a worry because if you're holding that, you're not using a Claw. The vest... I feel like if it's balanced for a Warlock, it shouldn't be imbalanced for the Cabalist...

As to the rest of the abilities, I like them. The CON to natural armor I thought was excellent in keeping with this ACF going into melee. I am not sure power-wise how much of an impact a "permanent" summon has.
By level 12, the duration isn't really the big issue, it's the ability to swap them at-will. But Imbue Item really is that good, I think.

Hmm. Soul eater says that a (natural?) attack that hits someone gives a negative level. Dipping Soul Eater is not a class fault, but is Soul Eater's fault. (The same can be said for wraithstrike; it makes classes broken because it IS broken.)
Uh, yeah. That's disgusting - and would be worse on the Totemist.

I believe there IS a wraithstrike amulet, called the Heartstrike Amulet (may have the name wrong) in MiC. It gives wraithstrike 3/day, and is horribly underpriced/overpowered.
Aha. Normally I'd be all for it - melee needs all the help they can get - but it's a bit (lot) much in this case, or in the case of other competent melee classes (Totemist, martial adepts, etc).

I was going to worry about an Elan Cabal warlock with Rapidstrike, but that's a significant investment of race choice, and a feat, to get one more attack. Probably not a big deal, but worth thinking about.
Doesn't Rapidstrike require a fairly high BAB, too? I thought that was something that doesn't really come into play until high levels...

Glimbur

2010-06-17, 02:45 PM

Doesn't Rapidstrike require a fairly high BAB, too? I thought that was something that doesn't really come into play until high levels...

Yeah, you need +10 BAB and an unusual type. Elan is the easy way to qualify for it as a PC, but that won't come up until mid/high levels due to BAB concerns and at that point... feats are expensive, that should be ok.

Hyooz

2010-06-18, 10:00 PM

Only Raptoran Druid remaining!

Glimbur

2010-06-19, 12:28 PM

Also, I have never made a vestige before and I have no idea if Theodoroosevelt is a) worth binding or b) of appropriate level.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-19, 02:16 PM

Since you've asked Glimbur, I'll bump you ahead of Khabuem; sorry Khabuem! I'll get to you soon!

Human Paragons - Glimbur
This is an awesome idea for a theme. I really like this.

Martial
You should format a little more - bold Hit Die, Requirements, Skills, etc. to make them stand out more.

d10 makes sense, rest is the same and makes sense... oh wait, why don't they get full BAB? They should get full BAB.

Tricky Fighting - uh... what if it's a weapon that cannot be used with combat maneuvers? I guess Disarm and Sunder are always options, but they're pretty poor options... and I can't really think of any weapons that work with Grapple (usable in a Grapple, yes, help you Grapple someone, not so much). Mostly, though, this is just not a very good feature. Not nearly equitable to a spellcasting level for a mage.

Versatile Fighting - This is awesome. A floating feat is always nice, I appreciate this.

Ultimately, I wanted this to advance Martial Maneuvers, and I'm disappointed that it doesn't...

Sneaky
Extra skills are nice, though it's less than a Rogue... probably not a big deal. You might consider allowing them to choose 12 class skills?

Otherwise, chassis looks fine.

Favorite Skill - Yeah... this isn't even close to as good as a spellcasting level. Why not let them always take-10 on that skill? That would be much more useful.

Sneak Attack - Seems appropriate.

Psionic
Chassis as the normal Human Paragon, looks fine.

Bonus Power - Why not just let them have the Bonus Feat? They could take Expanded Knowledge if they wanted to...

Manifesting - as expected, looks good.

Binder
"Pact Magic Human Paragon", perhaps? Anyway, chassis is fine.

Binding - uh... neither the requirements nor this specify that you actually need a level in Binder to gain this bonus. Someone who took Whatever-that-isn't-Binder X/Paragon 3 would count as a 2nd level Binder. Which is a little strange, honestly.

Theodoroosevelt - Kind of ridiculous, though then again so was Teddy. I'm thoroughly amused by this, really. Anyway, the Special Requirement thing is weird; I'd suggest just not listing it as a Special Requirement, and put it in the Manifestation section instead, perhaps. Maybe give him an actual Special Requirement.

Die Hard - perfect!

Human Resourcefulness - Hmm... like Naberius's skills, but with a sizable bonus to them. Still, 3rd level Vestige versus 1st level. I'll say it's fine.

Arms of Fire - Not sure the old-fashioned spelling of gun is appropriate; how would Teddy have spelled it?

Bear Wrestler - Cancels out size advantages, nice. Very nice, actually, this is something that basically every grappler ever would need to get. I dunno, it's something that should have been in the game somehow, but making this the way you get it is very odd.

Inspirational Oratory - Sounds very good. I like it.

Overall, I love this Vestige. I think the level's just fine, too. One point, though: As a 3rd level Vestige, those with Improved Bind Vestige can bind him. The Special Requirement says you only need 2 levels in Human Paragon, meaning you could be the default one or whatever. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you need to decide which features they get for both Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder.

Oh, and I dunno if access to Theodoroosevelt is really appropriate as a replacement for a Bonus Feat. For a Grappler, certainly, but for anyone else I dunno.

Glimbur

2010-06-19, 04:48 PM

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-06-19, 07:13 PM

I need to stop giving people ideas.

Glimbur

2010-06-19, 08:02 PM

I need to stop giving people ideas.

Thanks for the idea! I made it awesome.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-19, 10:19 PM

Bonus Power for the psionic paragon is subtly better than expanded knowledge because it doesn't have the limits of expanded knowledge: you don't have to be able to use the power now to add it to your powers known (which is probably dangerous) and it doesn't have to be one level lower than the maximum level power you can manifest. I suppose this could lead to silliness like a Psi-War learning a 7th level psion power, or otherwise getting one higher level power than expected, but I'm rather ok with that idea.
OK, interesting. Much better for a PsyWar than a Psion, but I'm OK with that. Yeah, sounds fine.

I'd like to give the Sneaky Human Paragon more skill points at first level and more class skills, but they only have one thing to take away at that level and I don't want to remove it. Unfortunate.
Eh... you could probably afford to give these classes prerequisites, and requires like 1d6 Sneak Attack. That would be enough to justify 8+Int skills, IMO...

Martial Human Paragon now has full BAB and is a little better at ToB. It's still not great because you don't get new maneuvers or stances from it though.
I don't see why you can't give like, one maneuver at 2nd. Still, yeah, it is better now.

It's kind of annoying that these are substitution levels instead of class variants. With a variant, you can give things up later for things early or whatever, but with substitution levels they can just take the levels they want and ignore the ones they don't...

I decided Theodoroosevelt wasn't worth a feat, and so threw him in for free. He should also be impossible to get without binding levels, so I don't have to name the features that people who bind via feats get. I changed the wording on the binding advancement so you have to actually have binding in the first place.
This looks good now, and I agree with the decision regarding Theodoroosevelt.

DaTedinator

2010-06-20, 12:52 PM

Sorry to be so absent, everyone! I've been pretty busy, and tomorrow I'm gonna go on a two-week vacation. But! Everyone's entries look great, and things seem to be going swimmingly!

DaTedinator, I suggest you put links to your contest and the chat thread in your sig, just like ErrantX. It would be convenient.

Good thinking! I'll do that.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-20, 04:20 PM

Well, I'm updating the class a bit, to clarify on the points of items with Eldritch Blast and Hellfire Blast. I've also clarified a lot of the rules around the Eldritch Claw, and I'm changing the names of the Fiendish Growths to take after various Demons. I'm currently avoiding the use of Devils since they have DR/silver while Demons have the DR/cold iron that the Warlock gets.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-21, 12:01 PM

Feral Substitution Levels - Khabuem
Cool, like the concept.

Feral Bard
You know there's already a Savage Bard, right? It's a class variant, though, not a set of substitution levels, so that's probably fine.

HD - Makes sense, since Feral has d10's instead of the usual d8's for Monstrous Humanoids.

Requirements - Oooh, you need the Feral template. That's really cool. OK.

Skills - Spot and Survival are fitting.

Inspire Rage - Hmm, interesting. Very interesting. I like it.

Inspire Pack Tactics - Awesome.

Song of the Free Spirit - Heh, a lot better than Song of Freedom, but then I think that's a good thing. Cool.

Conclusion
Love it!

Feral Cleric
Cool. I like the flavor text.

Skills - No Survival? Seems odd.

Turn Humanoids - Much more powerful than Turn Undead, but again, that doesn't seem really all that bothersome.

Share Vitality - Is this 10 minutes per day? 10 minutes at a time (spend another Swift action to continue)? Needs clarification. As is, it seems like they get to do this once, ever...

Dangerous Metamagic - Powerful but limited, and you fix the Strongheart Vest/Naberius issue, which is good.

Conclusion
Excellent all around, though Share Vitality needs some clarification.

Feral Ranger
Neat-o.

Wrestling Style - Hrm. I feel like they should get a Monk's Unarmed Damage Progression somehow. Anyway, it's a decent feat and waiving the pre-req is nice.

Improved Wrestling Style - That's extremely useful, nice. You should specify that they can grapple things up to 4 size categories larger than themselves, then.

Wrestling Style Mastery - Awesome. Again, you need to waive the limitation on how many size-categories larger than you an opponent can be.

Conclusion
I think you did a really good job with this one, making grappling actually reasonable for once.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-22, 01:19 PM

Druid Substitution Levels - Hyooz
Already got the Warforged, so continuing on...

I should point out that I've never played a Druid, never statted a Druid, and am almost entirely unfamiliar with the specifics of their abilities or spell list.

Dragonborn Druid
Fluff sounds good.

Breath Weapon - Animal Companion makes sense, but I don't see why you'd lose Wild Empathy or Nature Sense. I mean, it's not like those features are particularly important, but the Animal Companion, I'm pretty sure, is better than the breath weapon. Otherwise, looks very solid.

Scales - Looks good.

Draconic Companion - Hmm, interesting. I'm not familiar enough with Dragon Cohort or the Animal Companion to really judge this though. Does the Dragon count as a "higher level" companion for the sake of determining the Animal Companion features? Also, this sort of seems to contradict the first substitution level.

It would be a bit strange if they didn't take the first substitution level but did take the 5th one, gaining the Animal Companion and Dragon Companion. *shrug* Not really a big deal, though.

Conclusion
Fitting, I like the breath weapon a lot, and the flavor all fits with the possible exception of the "no Animal Companion, but Dragon Companion yes" thing.

Changeling Druid
Hehehe, this oughta be interesting.

Skills - I like it.

Urban Casting - Whoa, you're giving up a lot here for a generally-inferior casting stat. Uhm. I don't think that's necessary, at all.

Humanoid Shape - Kind of weird that you get Elemental shapes at the end there... and the delay on Large shapes seems like a minor nerf, but that's perfectly OK.

Social Dexterity - A Thousand Faces is kind of redundant for a Changeling, but also the most appropriate... Heh, I dunno. I think you're right about this.

Conclusion
Urban Casting hurts quite a bit. Mostly because you lose the Animal Companion. I'd actually do a swap for Cha-based casting, and additional features that cost Animal Companion and Nature Sense (+2 to Gather Information and Knowledge (Local) makes sense for Nature Sense; not sure what to give instead of Animal Companion)...

zagan

2010-06-23, 04:45 AM

Hello, all just want to say that I'm working on something for the contest, shifter substitution level to be exact. I hope to be able to post it soon. I will try to PEACH your work soon.

zagan

2010-06-23, 06:10 AM

Ok, first PEACH.

Warforged Barbarian

When Warforged discover true emotion, considering their warrior mind, it's not really surprising some use it to fight better. These warriors are some of the toughest of the Warforged, with armour that is near impenetrable, and still offensive capabilities through their rage.

Short but nice, I like it.

HD and skill

Standard

Class Features
All the following are class features of the Warforged Barbarian substitution levels.

Construct Toughness: Since Warforged are constructs, they are extremely tough, especially when combined with the fortitude of barbarians

Warforged Barbarians gain a bonus to hit points equal to double their class level.

This doesn't replace anything ?

Heavy Armour: Warforged that become Barbarians are the toughest of the lot, and have improved armour.

This substitution feature replaces the standard Barbarian's Fast Movement class feature. Instead, they gain Admantine Body and Improved Fortification as bonus feats.

Ah, I presume that the bonus hp are to counteract the improve fortification side effect.

Resilient: Warforged Barbarians are extremely hard to kill, as their armoured plating stops most blows.

This substitution feature replaces the standard Barbarian's Trap Sense class feature. The Warforged Barbarian gets Improved Damage Reduction as a bonus feat, and gains it again every time the Warforged Barbarian would usually gain an increase in their bonus from Trap Sense. Additionally, they gain an armour bonus to AC equal to the bonus they would have had from Trap Sense.

Nice.

Impenetrable Body: An experienced Warforged Barbarian's armour plating are exceptional, and very hard to pierce with weaponry.

This substitution feature augments the standard Barbarian's Damage Reduction class feature. They gain the Improved Damage Reduction feat every time they would normally gain Damage Reduction. Additionally, all the Warforged Barbarain's Damage Reduction from warforged feats changes to DR x/-.

Improve damage reduction again ? That give them a total of DR 13 at 19. Yeah okay it's not that much by that level.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Construct Toughness, Heavy Armour, Rage 1/day, Illiteracy

3|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Resilient

7|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+2|Impenetrable Body
[/table]

Simple but effective change to make a warforged even tougher. I like it.

zagan

2010-06-23, 07:35 AM

Second PEACH, I'm on a roll.

Tibbit Beguiler
-image-

Very cute image, but couldn't you find something that would hint at the magic ?

Enchantment works best when the recipients unwillingly let it enter their emotions. Tibbits beguilers have developed their own style, with more personality and enchantment than stealth and know-how. They tend to love attention, and charm those they desire, with magic, cute purring, or both. Tibbit Beguilers come in all shapes, colors, and alignments, as feline curiosity is universal.

Tibbit beguilers, or Enchant-a-cats as mused by some, first started when Sir Tigger became curious. "I wonder if I can get anyone I want to like me?" Sir Tigger was also very vain, and tried to be adorable to every noble he met in cat form, with no success. After being yelled at, and even kicked, took to beguilement, and with practice, learned how to use the innate adorableness of a cat, with beguilement, and was the first reputed to cast while as a cat.

After that, love and adoration came way too easily. Sir Tigger would go disguise himself with illusion spells, use enchantment to charm nobility, use his guile to become pampered, only to run out in the middle of the night, and brag to the other tibbits he knew. It all came so easily that Sir Tigger was then fabled to try to beguile the king of the kingdom. No one can agree on the story after that, with many saying that his curiosity killed him.

Many others, inspired by the tale, took up beguilement, with much better success than Sir Tigger. The beguiler tradition was then to pass between tibbits in the night, with formal instruction out of the sight of everyone.

Very nice fluff.

HD, skill

Standard.

Class Features

All the following are class features of the Tibbit Beguiler substitution levels.

Emotion Magic (Ex): Your force of personality lets you truly understand the emotions of people. It makes your enchantment accepted much more readily, and your illusion much more believable. You use your charisma stat to determine your save DCs, bonus spells per day, and highest level spell you can cast, instead of your intelligence stat.

This substitution feature replaces the INT-based spellcasting the Beguiler normally has.

Okay, more synergy with social skill so less mad but less skill point so it balance out.

Look at the cute kitty! (Su): D'aw...... A quick charm developed by other tibbits, this technique magnifies the sympathy of those that would dare strike you, making them suddenly hesistant to do so. As an immediate action, choose a subject within 30' of you, and spend a spell slot. That subject must make a will save (DC = 10 + spell level expended + CHA modifier), or they take a penalty to all attacks made against you that round equal to the spell level spent plus 1. You may use this ability after someone has declared attacks (or spells cast) on you. This ability is a mind-affecting ability.

At 8th level, this ability is usable at 60'.

At 14th level, this ability is usable at 90'.

In addition, any subject that fails to make the save and has targeted you with a spell immediately stops the spell, and wastes the spell (and action used to cast it). You must expend a 7th level spell or higher to gain this ability.

At 20th level, this ability is usable at 120',

In addition, anyone that is affected by this ability and causes you to die will feel their sympathy overtake them. They start involuntarily crying over your death, fall to the floor, and question why they killed you in the first place, doing nothing else in the process. That person cannot take any actions and is treated as prone and helpless for 10 minutes. You must expend a 9th level spell or higher to gain this ability.

Emphazise mine. "to use this ability" sound better.

This substitution feature replaces the standard Beguiler's Cloaked Casting class feature, at all levels. It also replaces the standard Beguiler's Surprise Casting class feature at level 2 and 6.

Lose some powerfull ability but worth it I think.

Meow Meow Meow Meow (Ex): You master Sir Tigger's signature style, and find that casting in cat form is no different than being a short human. You can cast beguiler spells in cat form, but must still provide verbal, somatic, and material components for your spells. You can substitute paw movement and feline sounds for the verbal and somatic components, and can use material components that are on your person. (This has caused the need for cat collars that store spell components.) This class feature does not give you the ability to speak in cat form nor does it give you opposable thumbs.

This substitution feature replaces the Beguiler's Silent Spell bonus feat at level 5.

Okay, nice and fitting.

Undeniable (Ex): Being the paragon of all things charming, you reach out and affect those who would normally not think about compassion. You can affect any subject with a INT score of 1 or higher with your mind-affecting spells and abilities (like the "Look at the cute kitty!" class feature if you have it), regardless if they are normally immune to it. (This class ability even supercedes the Mind Blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) spell.) Such creatures get a bonus of 10 minus your CHA modifier (This bonus can never be negative, but it can be 0.) to any saves against your mind-affecting spells and abilities.

This substitution feature replaces the Beguiler's Still Spell bonus feat at level 10.

Bypassing immunity to mind affecting effect is powerfull but the limit are enough to balance it I think. It could be nice (abusable ?) to not take the first substitution level and have a cha of 10 as to not give a bonus.

Table: Tibbit Beguiler Substitution Levels
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spellcasting
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Emotion Magic|Same as Beguiler
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Look at the cute kitty!|Same as Beguiler
5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Meow Meow Meow Meow|Same as Beguiler
10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Undeniable|Same as Beguiler[/table]

All in all a very nice job for a rarelly use race.

zagan

2010-06-27, 06:45 AM

And I present you my shifter substitution level. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8793700#post8793700)
Big thanks to Sliver for proofreading it.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-27, 10:28 AM

Whoo!

Shifter Substitution Levels - zagan
First, I approve wholeheartedly of this choice.

Shifter Totemist
Incredibly fitting, of course. Should have been their Favored Class to begin with.

Skills - I'm surprised those weren't Totemist class skills to begin with. Good.

Cobalt Shifting - excellent. Seriously, I really like this.

Soul Shifting - You have a typo on Swiftwing, you called it "Swifwing", and you need to pluralize "trait" in "If you have multiple trait" - should be "If you have multiple traits". Other than that, this looks good - simple, fitting, etc.

Incarnum Shifting - This is awesome, but comes at a steep cost. Hmm... I dunno. Both are very valuable, but I feel like I'm giving up more than I'm gaining. Not sure.

Lycanthrope Avatar
For one thing, I don't like how it's so similar in name to Totem Avatar; I dunno, a different name on the end there might be appropriate Hardly a big deal. Anyway...

Basic Effect - looks good.

Arms - A 9th level Totemist who doesn't already have Multiattack is doing something wrong. Say, at least, that if you have it you gain Improved Multiattack; far fewer Totemists will bother with that. Alternatively, consider allowing secondary Natural Weapons to take the full Str bonus to damage a la the Bloodclaw Master feature.

Otherwise, this is good, because Multiattack is a great feat. Just too likely to be wasted on a Totemist.

Brow - Iron Will? At 9th level? Anyone who ever shapes this is a moron. That's a terrible feat, and this is a mid-level Chakra. This needs to be better.

Feet - this is excellent, very useful and fitting feature.

Hand - awesome! Seems odd for Gorebrutes and Longteeth, but not much can be done about that.

Heart - Perfect! I really, really like this one, well done!

Shoulder - Appropriate, both in theme and in level. This is good.

Totem - Ehh... OK, because Shifters have their own Natural Weapons and don't necessarily need the Totem. But honestly it'd be pretty rare that I'd want to bind a Totem that didn't give me another attack. Considering you can only get up to +3 on your chosen Ability's modifier, this doesn't seem very good...

Conclusion
I'm asking my DM if I can make my Shifter Totemist one of these! I think the Lycanthrope Avatar needs some tweaks, but otherwise this is great.

Shifter Binder
Sort of unusual, but then... hehe, my Shifter is also a Binder, so! This is awesome if only for that reason.

HD - Fitting, but the wording on the comment seems a little weird. Consider perhaps the wording I used on my Warlock substitution levels?

Skills - Binders get only 2+Int skill points per level. It's really dumb, but they do. I'm not sure the Shifter is justified in increasing this.

Pact Augmentation - Wording here on how you choose Augmentations when you bind Vestiges is a little weird - I'd recommend just copying the text from Tome of Magic, it's a small enough quote that it shouldn't be a problem.

Bonus Feat - This implies that the Shifter Binder gets the Binder Bonus Feat and a bonus Shifter feat as well. I assume that wasn't intended? I'd recommend that you just state that Shifter feats are added to the list of choices.

Vestige Shifting - Very interesting. There are some wording issues here - "vestige ability that can only be use once every 5 round" should be "vestige ability that can only be used once every 5 rounds", and "For example if you have 2 round" should be "For example, if you have 2 rounds". Other than that, this is a very interesting feature - I like it.

Granes, the First Cursed - If you have Photoshop, I have a .PSD file that could allow you to create a "Vestige card" for Granes, if you'd like. Anyway, there's an issue with using the Special Requirement field for restricting Granes away from normal Binders, and that's the Ignore Special Requirements feat. I suggested to Glimbur that he instead add that requirement to a note in his Manifestation. Anyway, DC looks fine for the level, so that's fine. Legend looks good, Manifestation is very cool, but you should have "envelope you before disappearing, as if fusing with you" - should be a comma, not a period there.

Alternate Form - Looks good. The only commentary I have here is that I'm not quite clear on how the ability scores thing works - so like, if an animal has 16 Str, 8 Dex, and 13 Con, you gain +3 Str, -1 Dex, and +1 Con? An example here might be helpful.

Animal Will - You really like that Iron Will feat, huh? Binders have pretty good Will saves, I'm not really sure this is even all that helpful, but let's see what else you get...

Damage Reduction - Nice, very nice.

Animal Command - Awesome! This is great, I really like this.

Conclusion
I don't know enough about the animals you can choose for Granes to really judge him. Depends on that, really. Anyway, other than that, a clarification on the Bonus Feats is necessary, but this is otherwise very cool. I'll also be asking my DM if my Shifter can take this, heh.

Shifter Swordsage
Seems... oddly, this works. I mean, Tiger Claw, and the Dreamsight Shifters gain bonus Wisdom... I never would have thought it, but this works quite nicely.

Maneuvers and Stances - both refer to "Tiger claw" - it should be "Tiger Claw", it's a proper noun.

Discipline Focus (Shifting) - Very cool.

Beasthide - Ooh, I like this - but "from you chosen discipline" should be "from your chosen discipline".

Cliffwalk - "Climb becomes", but otherwise looks... OK. I'm not sure who useful this becomes, and in some cases it will be very weird (Diamond Mind maneuvers come to mind immediately). Eh. It's a neat idea, but Climb is a strange skill for it.

Dreamsight - Interesting. Very interesting, I like this.

Gorebrute - Nice! Maybe you should give Weapon Focus (Horn)? Can you even take Weapon Focus in Natural Weapons?

Longstride - Cool!

Longtooth and Razorclaw - Again, Weapon Focus (Bite/Claw) seems appropriate.

Swiftwing - typo'd as "Swifwing" again. Anyway, I really like this, awesome!

Truedive - Same issues as Cliffwalk. Same grammatical error, too.

Wildhunt - Nifty! But you should have a comma after discipline, not a period.

Extra Shifting - What doubles at 15th level? You gain +2 rounds and +2/day? If so, just say you gain another round of Shifting and another use per day, I think. Anyway, looks good.

Shifting Recovery - "to use their maneuvers more often". Anyway, one maneuver for giving up Shifting? That seems kinda weak. Why not as many maneuvers as you have rounds of shifting remaining?

Dire Tiger Claw - Using the discipline's name in the maneuver seems a bit odd, especially for such a low level maneuver. Anyway, +1 or +2 (on average) to damage is pretty weak for a stance - Punishing Stance gives +1d6 (average +3.5) as a 1st level stance. This is weaker than it should be.

Lycanthrope Fury - Awesome, this I really like. I like the imagery of how it builds.

Conclusion
Shifting Recovery and Dire Tiger Claw are a little on the weak end, but other than that, this looks really good. I don't have a Shifter Swordsage, but this is awesome.

zagan

2010-06-27, 01:17 PM

Whoo!

Thanks for the peach.

Shifter Substitution Levels - zagan

First, I approve wholeheartedly of this choice.

I was inspired by the winner prc from the last prc contest that combine binder and totemist and that use a shifter for the example character maybe you heard about it ? :smalltongue:

More seriously I was also inspired by Sinfire titan who comment at some point that a shifter totemist substitution level would be awesome and since then the idea stayed in the back of my mind.

Shifter Totemist

Incredibly fitting, of course. Should have been their Favored Class to begin with.

Skills - I'm surprised those weren't Totemist class skills to begin with. Good.

Yeah me too and seeing that shifter get a bonus there it was logical.

Cobalt Shifting - excellent. Seriously, I really like this.

Copied nearly word for word from the moonspeaker Prc, it's need if you don't want to spend all your feat on shifter feat.

Soul Shifting - You have a typo on Swiftwing, you called it "Swifwing", and you need to pluralize "trait" in "If you have multiple trait" - should be "If you have multiple traits". Other than that, this looks good - simple, fitting, etc.

I'll correct the typo.

Incarnum Shifting - This is awesome, but comes at a steep cost. Hmm... I dunno. Both are very valuable, but I feel like I'm giving up more than I'm gaining. Not sure.

Yeah but you still gained the ability later, and the fact that you have a hard time chosing mean that it's probably balanced.

Lycanthrope Avatar
For one thing, I don't like how it's so similar in name to Totem Avatar; I dunno, a different name on the end there might be appropriate Hardly a big deal. Anyway...

The name is chosen to remind of the totem avatar.

Basic Effect - looks good.

Ok.

Arms - A 9th level Totemist who doesn't already have Multiattack is doing something wrong. Say, at least, that if you have it you gain Improved Multiattack; far fewer Totemists will bother with that. Alternatively, consider allowing secondary Natural Weapons to take the full Str bonus to damage a la the Bloodclaw Master feature.

Otherwise, this is good, because Multiattack is a great feat. Just too likely to be wasted on a Totemist.

Yeah your probably right, I'll add that it become improve if you already have it.

Brow - Iron Will? At 9th level? Anyone who ever shapes this is a moron. That's a terrible feat, and this is a mid-level Chakra. This needs to be better.

The lycanthrope template grant it so I went with that but yes it need to be better any idea ? i might scrap that chakra alltogether.

Feet - this is excellent, very useful and fitting feature.

Thanks.

Hand - awesome! Seems odd for Gorebrutes and Longteeth, but not much can be done about that.

Natural weapon need something like that.

Heart - Perfect! I really, really like this one, well done!

I stole it from the shifter druid acf and the moonspeaker. :smalltongue:

Shoulder - Appropriate, both in theme and in level. This is good.

Cool

Totem - Ehh... OK, because Shifters have their own Natural Weapons and don't necessarily need the Totem. But honestly it'd be pretty rare that I'd want to bind a Totem that didn't give me another attack. Considering you can only get up to +3 on your chosen Ability's modifier, this doesn't seem very good...

I don't want it to be too good because you get it at second level, perhaps 2 + 1 per 1 essentia invest ?
Edit: Are you sure that you read it right ? You can get +3 at second level maw equal 1+essentia so +6 to +8. The old version was +1 per two essentia but it was never on the site are you psychic ?

Conclusion
I'm asking my DM if I can make my Shifter Totemist one of these! I think the Lycanthrope Avatar needs some tweaks, but otherwise this is great.

Thanks, I hope your DM approve. for the avatar I was hoping to make it extra special by giving an option for all chakra but i run out of ability to grant or it would overlap with the vestige.

Shifter Binder

Sort of unusual, but then... hehe, my Shifter is also a Binder, so! This is awesome if only for that reason.

see above for the inspiration.

HD - Fitting, but the wording on the comment seems a little weird. Consider perhaps the wording I used on my Warlock substitution levels?

I'll take a look, theoricaly we shouldn't have to give that level of detail its part of the basic rule of substitution level but like you i want to be clear on that point.

Skills - Binders get only 2+Int skill points per level. It's really dumb, but they do. I'm not sure the Shifter is justified in increasing this.

I don't think so but you're right it's dumb.

Pact Augmentation - Wording here on how you choose Augmentations when you bind Vestiges is a little weird - I'd recommend just copying the text from Tome of Magic, it's a small enough quote that it shouldn't be a problem.

I'll probably do that.

Bonus Feat - This implies that the Shifter Binder gets the Binder Bonus Feat and a bonus Shifter feat as well. I assume that wasn't intended? I'd recommend that you just state that Shifter feats are added to the list of choices.

i'll clear that up.

Vestige Shifting - Very interesting. There are some wording issues here - "vestige ability that can only be use once every 5 round" should be "vestige ability that can only be used once every 5 rounds", and "For example if you have 2 round" should be "For example, if you have 2 rounds". Other than that, this is a very interesting feature - I like it.

My proffreader miss that one, i'll correct it.

Granes, the First Cursed - If you have Photoshop, I have a .PSD file that could allow you to create a "Vestige card" for Granes, if you'd like.

Sorry don't have photoshop.

Anyway, there's an issue with using the Special Requirement field for restricting Granes away from normal Binders, and that's the Ignore Special Requirements feat. I suggested to Glimbur that he instead add that requirement to a note in his Manifestation. Anyway, DC looks fine for the level, so that's fine. Legend looks good, Manifestation is very cool, but you should have "envelope you before disappearing, as if fusing with you" - should be a comma, not a period there.

Its mentione in the substitution level that only shifter can use it but using the manifestation line for that is a good idea.

Alternate Form - Looks good. The only commentary I have here is that I'm not quite clear on how the ability scores thing works - so like, if an animal has 16 Str, 8 Dex, and 13 Con, you gain +3 Str, -1 Dex, and +1 Con? An example here might be helpful.

I copied the text from the lycantrhope template and no in your example you would gain a + 6, -2, +3. I'll try to word it better.

Animal Will - You really like that Iron Will feat, huh? Binders have pretty good Will saves, I'm not really sure this is even all that helpful, but let's see what else you get...

No i don't particulary like it but it allow me to grant four ability and as i said the template grant it.

Damage Reduction - Nice, very nice.

thematic.

Animal Command - Awesome! This is great, I really like this.

There's an obsucre faerun feat that grant the same thing and it seem fitting.

Conclusion
I don't know enough about the animals you can choose for Granes to really judge him. Depends on that, really. Anyway, other than that, a clarification on the Bonus Feats is necessary, but this is otherwise very cool. I'll also be asking my DM if my Shifter can take this, heh.

I chose the animal in relation to the various shifter trait.
I'm glad you like it.

Shifter Swordsage

Seems... oddly, this works. I mean, Tiger Claw, and the Dreamsight Shifters gain bonus Wisdom... I never would have thought it, but this works quite nicely.

Yes, isn't it.

Maneuvers and Stances - both refer to "Tiger claw" - it should be "Tiger Claw", it's a proper noun.

I'll correct that.

Discipline Focus (Shifting) - Very cool.

Beasthide - Ooh, I like this - but "from you chosen discipline" should be "from your chosen discipline".

kay.

Cliffwalk - "Climb becomes", but otherwise looks... OK. I'm not sure who useful this becomes, and in some cases it will be very weird (Diamond Mind maneuvers come to mind immediately). Eh. It's a neat idea, but Climb is a strange skill for it.

I was out of idea and it's not overpowered even if weird.

Dreamsight - Interesting. Very interesting, I like this.

Thanks

Gorebrute - Nice! Maybe you should give Weapon Focus (Horn)? Can you even take Weapon Focus in Natural Weapons?

You can and i'll probably do that.

Longstride - Cool!

Thanks.

Longtooth and Razorclaw - Again, Weapon Focus (Bite/Claw) seems appropriate.

Yeah.

Swiftwing - typo'd as "Swifwing" again. Anyway, I really like this, awesome!

I'll correct that.

Truedive - Same issues as Cliffwalk. Same grammatical error, too.

kay.

Wildhunt - Nifty! But you should have a comma after discipline, not a period.

I had a hard time thinking of something.

Extra Shifting - What doubles at 15th level? You gain +2 rounds and +2/day? If so, just say you gain another round of Shifting and another use per day, I think. Anyway, looks good.

i'll change the wording to clear thing up.

Shifting Recovery - "to use their maneuvers more often". Anyway, one maneuver for giving up Shifting? That seems kinda weak. Why not as many maneuvers as you have rounds of shifting remaining?

Yeah, thinking about it, i'll probably do that.

Dire Tiger Claw - Using the discipline's name in the maneuver seems a bit odd, especially for such a low level maneuver. Anyway, +1 or +2 (on average) to damage is pretty weak for a stance - Punishing Stance gives +1d6 (average +3.5) as a 1st level stance. This is weaker than it should be.

Yeah hum, Claw of the Dire Tiger could be a better name.
Punishing stance does impose a -2 penality to AC but I see what you mean.
I'll try to come up with an additional bonus.

Lycanthrope Fury - Awesome, this I really like. I like the imagery of how it builds.

Thank you.

Conclusion
Shifting Recovery and Dire Tiger Claw are a little on the weak end, but other than that, this looks really good. I don't have a Shifter Swordsage, but this is awesome.

Thanks again.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-27, 01:40 PM

I was inspired by the winner prc from the last prc contest that combine binder and totemist and that use a shifter for the example character maybe you heard about it ? :smalltongue:
I'm honored, thank you!

More seriously I was also inspired by Sinfire titan who comment at some point that a shifter totemist substitution level would be awesome and since then the idea stayed in the back of my mind.
Yeah, it really is awesome.

Anyway, it seems like you've got this well in hand, I rather like yours.

Seems like I'll be the only one with just one substitution level. Oh well. I like it, and I'm not really inspired for anything else associated with the Cabal. An Evoker or Warmage, and a Conjurer, would probably be fitting based on the source material, but I'm not particularly interested in either.

zagan

2010-06-27, 02:16 PM

Alright I've made the correction and i've changed the stances what do you think of the new version (copied below) I hope it's clear.

Claw
Tiger Claw (Stances)
Level: Shifter swordsage 3
Prerequisite: One Tiger Claw maneuver
Initiation action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stances

You know the secret to increase the effectiveness of your natural weapon, and you are delighted in demonstrating the result to your enemy.

While you are in this stance, the damage of the natural weapon you gain while shifting increases by one step, as if you were one size category larger. Each time you hit an opponent with one of the effect natural weapon, on the next round you increases the damage done by this weapon by another step against that opponent until the end of the encounter to a maximum of 4 step. For example a longtooth shifter has a bite attack dealing 1d6 damage (+1 per 4 character level + str + other bonus) with this stance this change to 1d8 if he hit with his bite an opponent on the next round his bite will deal 2d6 damage if he hit again on the next round he will deal 3d6 damage.
This effect stacks with any other effect that would increase the damage dealt by your natural weapon.

DragoonWraith

2010-06-27, 02:52 PM

Hmm, interesting. I like it, I think. The name seems a bit weird, though.

zagan

2010-06-27, 03:02 PM

I didn't copied right it supposed to be Claws of the Dire Tiger and i'm glad you like it.

zagan

2010-06-29, 04:04 PM

No reaction to my other Peach yet but oh well i have time so I'll continue.

Substitution levels for a template is very original and I like the idea

Feral bard

d8 instead of d6 fit perfectly.

spot and survival also fit well.

Inspire rage: It's a very good ability probably better than inspire courage but not by much.

Inspire Pack Tactics: I really like the flavor of this one, probably better than inspire competence if only because it also apply to flanking.

Song of the Free Spirit: Also very nice and probably more usefull than Song of Freedom.

Feral Cleric:

d10 instead of d8 okay.

intimidate fit as a skill

Turn Humanoids : Pretty original probably more powerfull than turn undead because humanoide as less hd in general.

Share Vitality: nice idea I like it and it allow to conserve your spell slot for other thing than healing.

Dangerous Metamagic: I'm vary of metamagic reducer but seeing the price it seem fair.

Feral Ranger:

Hd see above

Wrestling Style: I wasn't expecting grappling, I was expecting multiattack still it work too.

Improved Wrestling Style: Well done I wouldn't have tough of doing it like that.

Wrestling Style Mastery : Also nice remove a limitation but the image of a feral hafling ranger grappling the tarrask crack me up.

I think you did a very good job and as i said substitution level for a template is very original.

PId6

2010-07-03, 07:54 AM

zagan

2010-07-03, 10:24 AM

Okay, I think I'm done with my entry, barring revisions, unless I come up with something suitable for swordsage.

Looking over all the entries, I have to say, all of them look pretty good, but Cabal Warlock is by far my favorite. Very interesting twist on standard warlock. I love substitution levels that make the class play very differently (as you can probably tell), and I've always liked the warlock class despite its shortcomings, so I'm definitely itching to try it out.

I've given a quick glance to your class and I must say it's very impressive work. I'll get around to a Peach later because I prefer to do it in order.

Because I don't way to double post too much below is Peach for Glimbur work:

Making substitution level for parangon is a very original idea an I applaud you for thinking to do it.

Martial Human Paragon

HD: D10 instead of D8 but it fit.

Bab: fit too.

Martial Focus: A fair trade.

Martial Proficiency: Weird name I was expecting EWP as a bonus feat.
The wording is weird "you may learn" sound better I think.

Versatile Fighting: You need to add the ability name in the class text.
A floating fighter bonus feat is very nice and very fitting I like it.

Sneaky Human Paragon

Requirements: Why only sneak attack ? Scout or ninja might like to enter too.

Skills: 12 skill instead of 10 fit the sneaky role and 6 skill point instead of 4 also fit well.

Favorite Skill: You need to add the name in the text. Taking 10 a skill and you can change it very nice.

Sneak attack: Dito for the name. You can only qualify with sneak attack but can increase something else ?

Psionic Human Paragon

Additional Power: expanded knowledge without limit, I like it.

Pact Magic Human Paragon

A new vestige hum could be a nice bonus let's see:

The legend is a little silly but I like it.

Die hard: Always usefull.

Human Resourcefulness: Better than Naberius ability because you have a bonus but it's third level so perhaps it's warrant.

Arms of Fire: I don't much like gn in D&D but okay and the damage is reasonable.

Bear Wrestler: Bonus to grappling okay.

Inspirational Oratory: Inspire courage is nice but at half level not too powerfull.

All in all an interesting Vestige with a very diverse range of ability.

Conclusion: Good work even if it feel a little unpolished. I also want to thank you because you inspire me to create additional material for my own ACF.

zagan

2010-07-03, 02:05 PM

I've found myself with time so i'll continue Peaching. It's Hyooz turn:

Warforged Druid

Net idea I always want to play a transformer.

Natural Metal Body: Well yeah okay. I think it would have been easier to grant them the Ironwood body featRoE replacing any other body feat if need. But your way work too.

Clockwork Wild Shape: I love the concept, you might want to precise what racial trait are conserve (living construct immunity, composite plating, light fortification, slam)

Natural Weapon Arsenal: That's also a very good idea.

Dragonborn Druid

Not an obvious combo but why not ?

Breath Weapon: Powerfull, not sure if it's worth the same as an animal companion but still nice option.

Scales: Nice and probably more usefull.

Draconic Companion: Well that's very powerfull but it replace wildshape so it's probably alright.

Changeling Druid

Skills: Fitting for a changelling

Urban Casting: Charisma instead of wisdom might allow for some shenanigan particulary with the numerous way to gain it on various thing but its not that much of a problem and you do pay for it with a number of ability lost, perhaps too much.

Humanoid Shape: Interesting option I like it.

Social Dexterity: Skill are pretty rare nice to seem them used.

No raptoran druid finnaly ?

Still very good work.

Hyooz

2010-07-03, 05:28 PM

I'll get the Raptoran Druid up soon. My summer courses are coming to an end and getting pretty busy, so once my free time is mine again, I'll get that done soon.

Thanks for the PEACHes. I appreciate it.

zagan

2010-07-04, 12:40 PM

Thanks for the PEACHes. I appreciate it.

My pleasures, I'm really curious about the raptoran druid now.

Peach for Dragonwraith Cabal Warlock:

Very good image as usual and the fluff is very interesting.

d12 hd is a serious step up, even if it's only for 4 level.

Full Bab and good fort instead of will is a big change also blance wise it's not that important but still.

Eldritch claw: You effectively lose the range but can add your str instead. You seem to have most angle of abuse covered two thing tough
first while you precise that fiendish grow can only be primary or secondary, you just stat that the claw are primary what'stoping you from using a manufactured weapon to attack as normal an just add the claw as secondary ?
Second you mentionne that no ability that trigger on eldritch blast trigger on the claw does that include magic item such as warlock scepter ?

Fiendish Growths

-Lilitu sting: Give reach okay

-Tail of the Stygian Dragon: So hum effectivelly you can make three different attack as long as it's on different and adjacent target ?

-Bulezau Horns: Double damage on a charge, wow that could get pretty high.

-Hezrou Jaws: First secondary attack okay.

-Glabrezu Claws: A second primary attack cool but powerfull.

-Tentacles Like Unto Dagon: Two secondary attack and with reach seem strong too.

-Vrock Wings: Two secondary again but give fly speed this time.

-Flames of the Balor: Okay original and interesting; No limit on the number of time you can do it per round ?

-Marilith Arms: Just wow, four more secondary claw attack.

The fiendish grow are really powerfull, lets do a little math:
A 20th level warlock who know Hezrou jaws, Glabrezu Claws, Tentacles Like Unto Dagon, Vrock Wings and Marilith arm as the following routine:

Primary Claw (9d6)/ Primary Claw (9d6)/ Secondary Claw (4d6)/ Secondary Claw (4d6)/ Secondary Claw (4d6)/ Secondary Claw (4d6)/Secondary Bite (4d6)/ Secondary Tentacles (4d6)/ Secondary Tentacles (4d6)/ Secondary Wing (4d6)/ Secondary Wing (4d6) = 54d6

All that at full BaB, forget the Totemist I must get some of that.

And it's only the first sub level.

Bastion of the Lower Planes: More powerfull than detect magic but still balanced particulary if you have the low will save from the first level.

Fiendish Carapace: I think I prefer deceive item but this fit a melee character much better.

Fiendish Summons: Okay summon monster are nice could be use as flanking buddy if nothing else or for add verstility from the spell-like abilty.
Still deceive item is pretty powerfull too so it's probably worth it.

Conclusions: I think it's way too good particulary the first level. The idea is awesome but you've probably gone too far. Still I must complimante you on the amount of work put into this once again.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-04, 01:17 PM

Very good image as usual and the fluff is very interesting.
Thanks.

d12 hd is a serious step up, even if it's only for 4 level.
It comes out to an average of +3/level, for +12 HP by the time you take all four. Not really a big deal.

Full Bab and good fort instead of will is a big change also blance wise it's not that important but still.
Yeah, Fort instead of Will is generally seen as a downgrade. I'm not certain I need full BAB at this point, though.

Eldritch claw: You effectively lose the range but can add your str instead. You seem to have most angle of abuse covered two thing tough
OK.

first while you precise that fiendish grow can only be primary or secondary, you just stat that the claw are primary what'stoping you from using a manufactured weapon to attack as normal an just add the claw as secondary ?
Nothing except that it would be pretty useless. You don't get your Eldritch damage to the weapon attacks.

Second you mentionne that no ability that trigger on eldritch blast trigger on the claw does that include magic item such as warlock scepter ?
Depends on the wording of the scepter; which one is that in?

-Lilitu sting: Give reach okay
Mm.

-Tail of the Stygian Dragon: So hum effectivelly you can make three different attack as long as it's on different and adjacent target ?
Yeah. It's a tail sweep. Sort of like a better version of Steel Wind.

-Bulezau Horns: Double damage on a charge, wow that could get pretty high.
Eh, it's the same as a Lance. Getting Pounce would generally do more for you.

If a Glaivelock gets Haste, he'd have two touch attacks for full EB damage each. In two levels, he has it without Haste, and with Haste he has 3. Damage seems to be about on par.

-Hezrou Jaws: First secondary attack okay.

-Glabrezu Claws: A second primary attack cool but powerfull.
Eh, by the time you get it the Eldritch Glaive has two touch attacks that deal full EB damage at reach. And that's only using a single Least Invocation, as opposed to a Greater one.

-Tentacles Like Unto Dagon: Two secondary attack and with reach seem strong too.
Again, compares poorly to Eldritch Glaive: the Least Invocation has two attacks for full EB damage each, instead of half, and also has reach.

-Vrock Wings: Two secondary again but give fly speed this time.
Mm-hmm.

-Flames of the Balor: Okay original and interesting; No limit on the number of time you can do it per round ?
Not... currently. I dunno, it's a Dark Invocation, it should be good. I could make it use AoOs, but that makes this class dependent on Dex when otherwise it wouldn't be, and I don't really like that.

-Marilith Arms: Just wow, four more secondary claw attack.
Again, it's a Dark Invocation, and they're at half damage. With this, you are equivalent to a Glaivelock of the same level, except you have to hit Armor AC and they only have to hit Touch AC, they can be Hasted and you can't, and all of their attacks have reach and yours don't. That, and you used a Dark Invocation to do it, they used a Least.

The fiendish grow are really powerfull, lets do a little math:
A 20th level warlock who know Hezrou jaws, Glabrezu Claws, Tentacles Like Unto Dagon, Vrock Wings and Marilith arm as the following routine:

Primary Claw (9d6)/ Primary Claw (9d6)/ Secondary Claw (4d6)/ Secondary Claw (4d6)/ Secondary Claw (4d6)/ Secondary Claw (4d6)/Secondary Bite (4d6)/ Secondary Tentacles (4d6)/ Secondary Tentacles (4d6)/ Secondary Wing (4d6)/ Secondary Wing (4d6) = 54d6

All that at full BaB, forget the Totemist I must get some of that.

And it's only the first sub level.
5/12 Invocations devoted to it, including 2/3 of your Lesser (no invisible flight for you, at least not until 11th), and 2/3 of your Greater. A Glaivelock has +15/+10/+5 for Touch attacks, for 27d6, plus he only used one Least Invocation on it. A Wand of Haste, and he's up to 36d6. Some shenanigans for entry to Abjurant Champion and he's up to +16/+11/+6/+1 for 36d6, or 45d6 with Haste. And they're Touch Attacks, and only require a Least Invocation.

I think you're overstating this. The Glaivelock seems comparable to me.

Bastion of the Lower Planes: More powerfull than detect magic but still balanced particulary if you have the low will save from the first level.
That was the intent. At-will Detect Magic is rather useful, too.

Fiendish Carapace: I think I prefer deceive item but this fit a melee character much better.
Right, exactly.

Fiendish Summons: Okay summon monster are nice could be use as flanking buddy if nothing else or for add verstility from the spell-like abilty.
Still deceive item is pretty powerfull too so it's probably worth it.
Yup.

Conclusions: I think it's way too good particulary the first level. The idea is awesome but you've probably gone too far. Still I must complimante you on the amount of work put into this once again.
I think you're ignoring the fact that you need to use your Invocations to do it, and you're ignoring what a Glaivelock can do.

Running the numbers on a Totemist is a bit harder, because there are so many options, but Totemists are generally considered better than Warlocks, I believe.

zagan

2010-07-04, 01:47 PM

Nothing except that it would be pretty useless. You don't get your Eldritch damage to the weapon attacks.

No but it could be a nice bonus.

Depends on the wording of the scepter; which one is that in?

Complete arcane p145, you spend a number of charge an increase the damage by 1, 2 or 3d6.

Theres also the chasuble of fell power (lesser or greater) that add 1d6 or 2d6 constantly to the eldritch blast. (Carc p148)

-snip-

5/12 Invocations devoted to it, including 2/3 of your Lesser (no invisible flight for you, at least not until 11th), and 2/3 of your Greater. A Glaivelock has +15/+10/+5 for Touch attacks, for 27d6, plus he only used one Least Invocation on it. A Wand of Haste, and he's up to 36d6. Some shenanigans for entry to Abjurant Champion and he's up to +16/+11/+6/+1 for 36d6, or 45d6 with Haste. And they're Touch Attacks, and only require a Least Invocation.

I think you're overstating this. The Glaivelock seems comparable to me.

Eldritch glaive don't benefit from haste you only get max 4 attack from BaB it's not a full attack action it's a number of number equal to what your Bab would permit. So you need to multiclass into something with full bab such as abjurant champion as you mentionned. Their only advantage being touch attack but augmenting attack roll is not that hard (see my sig).
As for investment yes you lose a lot in versatility but a specialized build could be fun too.
The substitution level have another advantage you can go straight warlock that mean you don't need to bother qualifying for any prc and can spend your feat to augmentd your damage even further (martial study and stance for assasin stance come to mind but you have lot of option)

Running the numbers on a Totemist is a bit harder, because there are so many options, but Totemists are generally considered better than Warlocks, I believe.

It's hard to tell for totemist yes but I'm still convince that cabal warlock are superior to normal warlock.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-04, 02:02 PM

No but it could be a nice bonus.
If you didn't have Glabrezu Claws, sure, I guess. I don't think it's a particularly big deal.

Complete arcane p145, you spend a number of charge an increase the damage by 1, 2 or 3d6.

Theres also the chasuble of fell power (lesser or greater) that add 1d6 or 2d6 constantly to the eldritch blast. (Carc p148)
Both would work, because they inherently augment Eldritch Blast. Hellfire Blast reads "When you use Eldritch Blast, you may choose to change it into a Hellfire Blast" - it's keying off of the use of Eldritch Blast, instead of just improving Eldritch Blast, so it doesn't work.

Eldritch glaive don't benefit from haste you only get max 4 attack from BaB it's not a full attack action it's a number of number equal to what your Bab would permit. So you need to multiclass into something with full bab such as abjurant champion as you mentionned. Their only advantage being touch attack but augmenting attack roll is not that hard (see my sig).
Not allowing Eldritch Glaive to work with Haste is preposterous in my mind, RAW or not.

At high levels the average difference between Armored AC and Touch AC is like 15 (conservative estimate). Getting +15 to all attacks is not trivial.

As for investment yes you lose a lot in versatility but a specialized build could be fun too.
Sure, but only if you get something for that specialization.

The substitution level have another advantage you can go straight warlock that mean you don't need to bother qualifying for any prc and can spend your feat to augmentd your damage even further (martial study and stance for assasin stance come to mind but you have lot of option)
Err... so? How is that different from the Glaivelock? Or do you mean Abjurant Champion? Meh, I don't see this as a huge deal.

It's hard to tell for totemist yes but I'm still convince that cabal warlock are superior to normal warlock.
Versatility is king in D&D. You're sacrificing versatility for pure damage. That's not an often-recommended trade.

zagan

2010-07-04, 02:21 PM

If you didn't have Glabrezu Claws, sure, I guess. I don't think it's a particularly big deal.

No it's not a big deal, i was juts curious.

Both would work, because they inherently augment Eldritch Blast. Hellfire Blast reads "When you use Eldritch Blast, you may choose to change it into a Hellfire Blast" - it's keying off of the use of Eldritch Blast, instead of just improving Eldritch Blast, so it doesn't work.

Okay, so that's clear.

Not allowing Eldritch Glaive to work with Haste is preposterous in my mind, RAW or not.

Yes, it's silly but it depend on the DM and for balance debat you need to use the same base of discussion.

At high levels the average difference between Armored AC and Touch AC is like 15 (conservative estimate). Getting +15 to all attacks is not trivial.

It's harder but I think it's doable.

Sure, but only if you get something for that specialization.

I could argue that it doesn't stop you from having fun even if you lose something.

Err... so? How is that different from the Glaivelock? Or do you mean Abjurant Champion? Meh, I don't see this as a huge deal.

I mean abjurant champion straigh glaivelock as only three attack so less potential damage. And yes it's not a huge deal your right but some like to keep thing simple.

Versatility is king in D&D. You're sacrificing versatility for pure damage. That's not an often-recommended trade.

That's true but warlock aren't that versatile to begin with and you have party member for a reason.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that issue. I'm not expert enough on high level play to be able to better argument on that.
As I said i really like the substitution level and I hope i didn't anger you.

zagan

2010-07-06, 12:26 PM

I finnally have to tim do Peach Pld6 work:

Environmental variant is a nice idea, could race from sandstorm also qualify ?

Desert warblade:

The image and the fluff is very nice, good work.

HD: d8 instead of d12 fit with archery.

Skills: More skill point and more skill seem logical too, even if you gain more than you lose.

Proficiencies: Need and fair

Maneuvers: Lose two to gain one but you get the advantage of ranged so okay.

Adept of the Bow: Okay

Bonus feat: All seem fine except wild cohort, I wouldn't give that one as a bonus feat, if the player want it they can use their normal feat slot.

Close Combat Shot: Powerfull that but probably need you only lose Battle cunning (damage) or all version. I presume only this one but you may need to precise it.

Ranged Maneuvers: I presume that this also mean that you now can't use the changed maneuvers in melee ?

Conclusions: Pretty nIce change that nearly completely change the feel of the class.

Desert Crusader:

Again nice image and fluff.

Skills: A small skill change depending on the path to go with discipline.

By Earth or Sky: Do you mean that those that chose the path of heart forever forgo learning desert wind maneuver even via multiclassing or feat ?

Devoted Companion: I'll comment further below on that but I don't much like that you companion advance with your IL level instead of class level as normal for most companion creature. The ability that it replace depend entierely on class level.

Aegis of Wind: Seem nice probably come into play more often than cha to will save but still probably a reasonable trade.

Onslaught of Fire: More damage than normal smite but it's fire damage so it's alright and you need two attack roll.

Detail on mount:

Int/Cha: Why Int and Cha ? Normally it's just Int.

Sublime Mount: Pretty nice and fitting.

Share Stance and Boosts: Powerfull that, I don't know if it can really be abused but I would be carefull with that. It's like gaining double the benefit.

Share Saving Throws: Like for familiar why ?

Devoted Ideal: Thematic bonus but not too strong.

One Body: Oh I get back a version my lost class feature, that's great.

One Soul: Very nice that, foe now need to kill you both to win.

Conclusions: Very powerfull, nearly a no brainer, unless you really don't want to have a mount I don't see anybody that wouldn't take this variant. You might want to tone down the mount power a little.

PId6

2010-07-06, 02:00 PM

Thanks for the PEACH! Appreciate it! I think you were probably looking at it at the same time I was updating, but it was only a few minor things, nothing significant. I'm nearly finished with an arcane swordsage variant, so I'll have that up soon.

Comments:

Environmental variant is a nice idea, could race from sandstorm also qualify ?
Good idea. I've added them to the prereq options.

Desert warblade:
Bonus feat: All seem fine except wild cohort, I wouldn't give that one as a bonus feat, if the player want it they can use their normal feat slot.
I see your point. It's probably too good compared to the other warblade bonus feat choices. Removed.

Close Combat Shot: Powerfull that but probably need you only lose Battle cunning (damage) or all version. I presume only this one but you may need to precise it.
Only Battle Cunning (damage). I specified it.

Ranged Maneuvers: I presume that this also mean that you now can't use the changed maneuvers in melee ?
You can still use them in melee. It's clarified now.

Conclusions: Pretty nIce change that nearly completely change the feel of the class.
That's what I'm going for. I love ToB, but while it's awesome for traditional melee types, it's a bit limited for ranged (non-throwers) and mounted. With these two classes, I'm trying to make up for its deficiencies in these areas, and make them play completely differently.

Desert Crusader:
By Earth or Sky: Do you mean that those that chose the path of heart forever forgo learning desert wind maneuver even via multiclassing or feat ?
I meant that you can still gain Stone Dragon maneuvers through other means, just not the class. Hopefully, it's clearer now.

Devoted Companion: I'll comment further below on that but I don't much like that you companion advance with your IL level instead of class level as normal for most companion creature. The ability that it replace depend entierely on class level.
I chose IL rather than class levels mostly to make multiclassing and PrCing not a terrible proposition. I'm of the opinion that many class feature progressions should work this way. However, your point about the feature it replaces is a good one, and it's a powerful enough class feature that restricting multiclassing options probably is a fair price to pay for having it. Changed to class levels then.

Int/Cha: Why Int and Cha ? Normally it's just Int.
Good point. I just thought it'd be weird for horses with human-like intelligence to walk around with abysmal Cha scores, but it's not really necessary. Removed.

Share Stance and Boosts: Powerfull that, I don't know if it can really be abused but I would be carefull with that. It's like gaining double the benefit.
Modeled this after Share Spells. Stances probably won't be a huge problem, but Boosts might be a bit too good. I might remove the Boosts part entirely, or at least get rid of some of the more powerful options (Burning Blade line, Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose). It does make some maneuvers not completely useless on a mount though, which was the primary reason that I added this (ex: Wind Stride, Quicksilver Motion, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt).

Share Saving Throws: Like for familiar why ?
Paladin mount gets it, and I based this off of that.

One Body: Oh I get back a version my lost class feature, that's great.

One Soul: Very nice that, foe now need to kill you both to win.
I tried to make the higher level special mount bonuses fairly powerful, since otherwise they just can't compete with higher level alternate choice companions. Ultimately though, the alternate choices are still probably better, but keeping a lower level companion is at least a more competitive choice than for a druid.

Conclusions: Very powerfull, nearly a no brainer, unless you really don't want to have a mount I don't see anybody that wouldn't take this variant. You might want to tone down the mount power a little.
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I may reduce the alternate companions list and maybe take away a bit more, but I'm not sure what. I can take away heavy armor proficiencies, but that probably won't trouble anyone much thanks to the second level ability anyway. Taking away a discipline seems like a bad idea, with the few number of them crusaders already get. Not sure about this one.

zagan

2010-07-06, 03:14 PM

Thanks for the PEACH! Appreciate it! I think you were probably looking at it at the same time I was updating, but it was only a few minor things, nothing significant. I'm nearly finished with an arcane swordsage variant, so I'll have that up soon.

The new image are nice; Arcane swordsage, oh I can't wait to see that, it will be very hard to balanced properly.

Response:

You can still use them in melee. It's clarified now.

It might have been better on the contrary to limit it to one or the other that way it's in the player best interest to use a range weapon. Otherwise he might fight in melee like a normal warblade and just use a back-up bow when the enemy is flying or something like that.

That's what I'm going for. I love ToB, but while it's awesome for traditional melee types, it's a bit limited for ranged (non-throwers) and mounted. With these two classes, I'm trying to make up for its deficiencies in these areas, and make them play completely differently.

So far it's working.

I chose IL rather than class levels mostly to make multiclassing and PrCing not a terrible proposition. I'm of the opinion that many class feature progressions should work this way. However, your point about the feature it replaces is a good one, and it's a powerful enough class feature that restricting multiclassing options probably is a fair price to pay for having it. Changed to class levels then.

Yeah it's better like that I think.

Modeled this after Share Spells. Stances probably won't be a huge problem, but Boosts might be a bit too good. I might remove the Boosts part entirely, or at least get rid of some of the more powerful options (Burning Blade line, Dancing Mongoose, Raging Mongoose). It does make some maneuvers not completely useless on a mount though, which was the primary reason that I added this (ex: Wind Stride, Quicksilver Motion, Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt).

Stances are probably enough but you could make a feat to add boost ?

Paladin mount gets it, and I based this off of that.

I didn't remenber that.

I tried to make the higher level special mount bonuses fairly powerful, since otherwise they just can't compete with higher level alternate choice companions. Ultimately though, the alternate choices are still probably better, but keeping a lower level companion is at least a more competitive choice than for a druid.

That's an excellent idea actully. I didn't think of that, still you might want to reduce the bonus from One body a little because otherwise you regain your lost class feature (or nearly so) and you have a powerfull normal mount.

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I may reduce the alternate companions list and maybe take away a bit more, but I'm not sure what. I can take away heavy armor proficiencies, but that probably won't trouble anyone much thanks to the second level ability anyway. Taking away a discipline seems like a bad idea, with the few number of them crusaders already get. Not sure about this one.

Toning down the mount bonus should be enough.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-06, 09:20 PM

Ooh, Adept substitution levels! I really like this, πd6!

Desert Adepts - πd6

Desert Crusader
I love the fluff.

By Earth or Sky - A fair trade, I think. Desert Wind is a bit better than Stone Dragon, IMO, but they're close, and Tumble's a bit better than Balance, but both have their uses.

Devoted Companion - Looks good, though I haven't gone through the list of mounts to specifically compare each option. One thing does strike me about the list, though: you missed the coolest mount in all of 3.5, when the Path of Air was just begging for it! Seriously, the Dust Twister absolutely needs to be an option here.

Aegis of Wind - Uh... kinda favors the Path of Air a bit, don't you think? I mean, Stone Dragon has quite a few stances that require that you don't move, and hell, the very name is wind-centric... you could always not take it if Path of Earth, but an option that favors them would be nice.

Onslaught of Fire - Awesome! Very, very cool, I like it a lot.

Conclusion
Awesome, just awesome. I really like this. You might consider using the Twin Soul homebrew discipline, though, since it's mounted combat based.

Desert Warblade
Very, very cool.

HD, Skills - Seems alright, fitting for a lighter warrior type.

Proficiencies - Wow, that's a big hit right off the bat. Still, can't argue with it, it's fitting and appropriate.

Maneuvers - Uhhh... why on earth are you giving up two Disciplines (including one that's quite fitting, IMO) for one (which is generally weaker than said fitting discipline)?

Adept of the Bow - Why so restricted? By which I mean, why not just any maneuver?

Bonus Feat - Err... no Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, et al.? Those would be kind of expected at the top of the list, no?

Close Combat Shot - This is nifty, fitting, and expected.

Conclusion
Why so limited? Dropping from a d12 to a d8, losing two disciplines for one, especially when one of them is White Raven, losing two-hander proficiency, all for the ability to use some maneuvers at range?

PId6

2010-07-07, 04:05 AM

It might have been better on the contrary to limit it to one or the other that way it's in the player best interest to use a range weapon. Otherwise he might fight in melee like a normal warblade and just use a back-up bow when the enemy is flying or something like that.
I'm not sure that's a problem. He's already lost martial 2h weapons, so he's better off using ranged weapons most of the time. And if he wants to use melee primarily and ranged secondary, well, he's given up a discipline to gain these abilities so I don't think it's quite fair to take that versatility away.

Stances are probably enough but you could make a feat to add boost ?
I changed it so that rather than just sharing boosts, you can choose to affect your mount instead of you. Only a few maneuvers (mostly teleportation based ones) still work on both of you at the same time, so hopefully the utility is still there while the abusability is gone.

I didn't remenber that.
See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#thePaladinsMount).

That's an excellent idea actully. I didn't think of that, still you might want to reduce the bonus from One body a little because otherwise you regain your lost class feature (or nearly so) and you have a powerfull normal mount.
I think it's weak enough already that it shouldn't be a big issue. A key difference here is that the bonus from One Body only affects the one that originally dealt the damage. Furious Counterstrike lets you apply the bonus to everything, which makes quite a difference if the one dealing damage happens to be an archer or mage standing far away.

A second key difference is that you can only give up HP equal to up to half of the damage your partner takes, and the bonus only takes into account damage from a single source at a time. That means your mount has to take 60 damage from a single attack in order for you to gain the full +6. Multiple attacks do not stack for how much bonus you would gain; only the highest one counts. This is again quite weaker than Furious Counterstrike, which takes the cumulative damage you gain in that round rather than require it of a single attack, and you only need to take 30 damage for the full effect.

Ooh, Adept substitution levels! I really like this, πd6!
Thanks!

Devoted Companion - Looks good, though I haven't gone through the list of mounts to specifically compare each option. One thing does strike me about the list, though: you missed the coolest mount in all of 3.5, when the Path of Air was just begging for it! Seriously, the Dust Twister absolutely needs to be an option here.
Good idea. Added.

Aegis of Wind - Uh... kinda favors the Path of Air a bit, don't you think? I mean, Stone Dragon has quite a few stances that require that you don't move, and hell, the very name is wind-centric... you could always not take it if Path of Earth, but an option that favors them would be nice.
Forgot about the "can't move" stances. They don't work well while mounted anyway, so I've changed it so that you don't exit those stances as long as you not leave your mount. Hopefully, that should fix the discrepancy.

Conclusion
Awesome, just awesome. I really like this. You might consider using the Twin Soul homebrew discipline, though, since it's mounted combat based.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm trying to make the original ToB disciplines work for alternate combat styles without relying too much on homebrew disciplines. They would work nicely together, but the class should still be able to work on its own as well.

Proficiencies - Wow, that's a big hit right off the bat. Still, can't argue with it, it's fitting and appropriate.
Not that big, I don't think. The only real difference between a longsword and a greatsword is that greatsword deals 2.5 more damage on average; not huge when the desert warblade wants to be primarily ranged anyhow.

Maneuvers - Uhhh... why on earth are you giving up two Disciplines (including one that's quite fitting, IMO) for one (which is generally weaker than said fitting discipline)?
Stone Dragon is pretty much a straight swap for Desert Wind, and they're about on par power-wise. White Raven is intended to be the cost for the ability to use maneuvers with a bow. Many of its maneuvers are related to charging, which I felt like would be thematically inappropriate for an archer-type. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the cost would be, since Weapon Aptitude isn't really good enough while Tiger Claw seems to make a bit more sense than White Raven.

Adept of the Bow - Why so restricted? By which I mean, why not just any maneuver?
That was because of two reasons primarily. A) Some maneuvers just either don't work, or don't make sense when used with bows (Lightning Throw as an example of the former, most Tiger Claw maneuvers for the latter). And B) Many maneuvers need some changes to make them work at range, and due to the vast variance in rules text for maneuvers, I'm going to have to go through the list one by one anyhow. It's hard to come up with language that would make all maneuvers work seamlessly at range, and corner cases like Steel Wind and Mithral Tornado require specific adjustments no matter what. I prefer to have clear rules guidelines on how the mechanic works, rather than relying on common sense interpretations which can vary wildly, and just saying "all maneuvers work at range" would require a bit too much of that.

Functionally, it's meant to allow pretty much all maneuvers that make sense. I might go through and add in maneuvers from the other disciplines though, and perhaps sort the lists by level so that it's a bit more readable.

Bonus Feat - Err... no Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, et al.? Those would be kind of expected at the top of the list, no?
I didn't want there to be any "must have" feats on the list, since that would deviate too much from the warblade's original list. I felt like I should add more feats that are useful, but not quite worth an extra feat slot. Feats like Far Shot and Ranged Disarm are fairly on par with the feats of the original list, while feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot would be too good in comparison.

Conclusion
Why so limited? Dropping from a d12 to a d8, losing two disciplines for one, especially when one of them is White Raven, losing two-hander proficiency, all for the ability to use some maneuvers at range?
Lower HD was the cost of increasing skill points and skill list. Having 6+Int rather than 4+Int is the equivalent of 12 extra skill points over the three levels (if you take the first one at 1st level), which is pretty big. However, the loss of HP is a bit more dramatic than I intended, so I upped it to d10s. Net loss of 4 HP for 12 skill points is pretty nice.

Loss of proficiency isn't that big of an issue. You can still use simple 2H weapons and martial one-handers, so it's a few points of damage loss in melee at worst; nothing huge. The biggest loss likely comes from losing good reach weapons, but you do gain proficiency with bows, which is what you wanted anyway if you're taking this. Perhaps I should include proficiency with Greatbow or something as well to make up for it?

Loss of White Raven is the biggest one. In my mind, I just see it as the discipline of "Charrrge!" which makes it a bit conflicting on an archer. The other one that I could take away is Tiger Claw, but that has a few good maneuvers like the Mongoose line which work really well with archery. I don't really know how or whether to change this.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-07, 09:34 AM

Basically, I think you're massively over-valuing being a ranged attacker. I don't think you need to lose a second discipline at all, really. Maybe lose the ability to use maneuvers in melee?

PId6

2010-07-07, 10:01 AM

Basically, I think you're massively over-valuing being a ranged attacker. I don't think you need to lose a second discipline at all, really. Maybe lose the ability to use maneuvers in melee?
It's just that I don't see White Raven as being all that useful for the class. Most of the maneuvers wouldn't even work for an archer. You lose White Raven Tactics, which is admittedly awesome, but beyond that, not much.

I could experiment with losing the ability to use maneuvers in melee instead, but honestly, that feels like a much bigger loss than White Raven. Without a bow, you'd pretty much become useless if that were true, while losing White Raven only loses you a small selection of maneuvers.

I'll think about it.

zagan

2010-07-07, 10:30 AM

I'm not sure that's a problem. He's already lost martial 2h weapons, so he's better off using ranged weapons most of the time. And if he wants to use melee primarily and ranged secondary, well, he's given up a discipline to gain these abilities so I don't think it's quite fair to take that versatility away.

DragoonWraith make a good point and remember that with the 7th sibstitution level he don't need a melee weapon anymore so that help.

I changed it so that rather than just sharing boosts, you can choose to affect your mount instead of you. Only a few maneuvers (mostly teleportation based ones) still work on both of you at the same time, so hopefully the utility is still there while the abusability is gone.

That's an excellent idea that way you don't get double effect.

I think it's weak enough already that it shouldn't be a big issue. A key difference here is that the bonus from One Body only affects the one that originally dealt the damage. Furious Counterstrike lets you apply the bonus to everything, which makes quite a difference if the one dealing damage happens to be an archer or mage standing far away.

A second key difference is that you can only give up HP equal to up to half of the damage your partner takes, and the bonus only takes into account damage from a single source at a time. That means your mount has to take 60 damage from a single attack in order for you to gain the full +6. Multiple attacks do not stack for how much bonus you would gain; only the highest one counts. This is again quite weaker than Furious Counterstrike, which takes the cumulative damage you gain in that round rather than require it of a single attack, and you only need to take 30 damage for the full effect.

You're right that should be alright then.

Eurus

2010-07-07, 06:30 PM

Reposted from elsewhere at DW's request, commentary on the Cabal Warlock substitution levels:

Too powerful? Really?

Eldritch Claw is, as far as I can see, strictly weaker than a normal Eldritch Blast. You can use it in conjunction with other natural weapons or with a manufactured weapon, and you add your strength modifier to damage, but Eldritch Glaive is much better for warlock full-attacking and you don't even have the option to use it at range. Being an (Ex) ability is a bit of a trade-off, since it ignores SR and antimagic but can't benefit from the (Metamagic) SLA feats. Plus you can't take Hellfire Warlock, which is one of the main ways for a 'lock to pump his damage to respectable levels (besides the metamagics). Finally, it's a regular attack rather than a touch attack, so you can't even rely on Power Attack. So the Claw is very likely to do much less damage, less often, and to fewer people to boot.

Then there are the Fiendish Growths. If the Claw is weaker than the Blast, this should be what makes up for it, right? Well, it kind of does, but I still definitely wouldn't call it any better than a normal Eldritch Blast. Lilitu Sting is basically a Glaive that can only attack once per round, but at least opens the Cabal Warlock up to AoO builds if he wants. Tail of the Stygian Dragon is only useful if you've got multiple foes in melee with you and can still make a full attack, making it pretty niche.

Bulezau Horns are nice, in the sense that they allow a Cabalock to compare to a normal warlock with Maximize SLA. Hezrou Jaws are the first secondary attack one, so I figure they're probably a must-have since there's just almost no reason to not take them. Glabrezu Claws also give an extra EB attack, but since greater invocations are a bit more impressive I wouldn't call them a must-have. The Tentacles are about the same, but Vrock Wings are probably better. Flames of the Balor is a nice trick, but Marilith Arms is mean. Still, since the Warlock is in the realm of 8th and 9th level spells, it's not really out of hand.

All in all, I'd say the Claw + growths is definitely weaker than a Glaivelock (for the first 15 levels or so, at least), and let's not even get started on a Hellfire Glaivelock, but Eldritch Glaive is arguably overpowered anyway. Compared to a non-Glaive melee warlock, it's more balanced, but I still feel like it's definitely not better. It does have the perk of being able to deliver a barrage of debuffs via Eldritch Essences (Utterdark in particular comes to mind as a nasty problem for anything without energy drain immunity), but in terms of pure damage - which is what you'd normally expect from a melee warlock, ironically - I definitely don't think it's overpowered.

As for the rest. Bastion of the Lower Planes is nice, possibly nicer than free Detect Magic, but for a class that already has a good will save it doesn't seem like a deal-breaker. Fiendish Carapace is very nice, but so is Deceive Item. In fact, I might put Deceive Item higher. Fiendish Summons is great, and since PCs in the groups I'm in rarely do their own crafting I'd rank it higher than Imbue Item. Even limited to only evil creatures, it adds plenty of versatility to any 'lock. Probably not overpowering, but I'm still slightly leery.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-07, 06:59 PM

Eurus

2010-07-07, 07:11 PM

I generally agree with your entire assessment. You might consider reading what zagan has said, since he's done some quite nice numerical analysis; this class can do quite a bit more damage than the Glaivelock - assuming it hits, which may not be entirely fair due to the differences between regular and touch attacks. Then again, natural weapons have at most a -5 penalty, and more realistically a -2, compared to the Glaivelock's -5/-10, so... eh, the differences between regular and touch AC are greater than 10, so that's still quite a bit in the Glaivelock's favor.

Power Attack, though, that's an interesting option I hadn't considered. Definitely quite a bit more powerful for a Glaivelock than for this. Yeah, the Glaivelock probably wins on damage with that.

Looking over Zagan's analysis, I admit that I did underestimate the sheer quantity of dice a bit, but I still don't think it's as potent as claimed. It beats out a normal glaivelock only assuming that the glaivelock isn't doing anything at all to pump up their damage, and every attack hits, and the Cabalock is willing to make a massive investment in terms of number of invocations. In my (admittedly limited) experience, Power Attack is generally fairly common for glaivelocks (and is a big deal, since a glaive is two-handed IIRC), and the aforementioned Hellfire Warlock is a massive difference in terms of damage. Plus the ability of a normal glaivelock to maximize or empower a handful of full attacks per day shouldn't be underestimated.

As for Fiendish Summons, Imbue Item is the only reason Warlocks were 3rd Tier in the first place. It's generally considered by-far the most powerful thing they get. So losing that, it must be replaced by something huge. I think Fiendish Summons appropriately replaces the versatility you can get from crafting any wand in the game ever.

Fair enough, I suppose. Like I said, I generally don't deal with campaigns that involve much crafting, so I've never gotten much use out of it myself, but I'll take your word for it. I just know that summoning, if you're creative, can be very useful (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker).

DragoonWraith

2010-07-07, 07:14 PM

Of course, but you're also not a Malconvoker. You don't have Augment Summoning, Deceptive Summoning, and most importantly, you don't have Fiendish Legion.

Eurus

2010-07-07, 07:17 PM

Of course, but you're also not a Malconvoker. You don't have Augment Summoning, Deceptive Summoning, and most importantly, you don't have Fiendish Legion.

Was mostly pointing at the lists of SLAs that you indirectly have access to through Summon Monster, sorry.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-07, 08:25 PM

Oh, I know, but that list is quite a bit shorter than "any spell in the game, provided you have time to prepare the scroll/wand".

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-08, 08:00 PM

Well, my entry is up. I've taken the idea of Rokugan blood magic, genericized it somewhat, put a Drizzt spin on it (in the "it doesn't have to be evil!" sense, not the "it's going to start cutting itself" sense...though there is some self-mutilation going on with the blood theme, so....) and tried to give a boost to some really underwhelming oriental classes in the process. Hope you like it.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-08, 09:52 PM

Well, I don't think I can offer you a PEACH, Dice, cuz I don't know the classes these are substitution levels for. Sorry.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-08, 10:25 PM

Well, I don't think I can offer you a PEACH, Dice, cuz I don't know the classes these are substitution levels for. Sorry.

...you're not familiar with the monk, ninja, samurai, and shugenja? Or is it just that it's not clear which classes these are for? I'd hoped the little paragraph blurb for each one would make that clear enough.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-08, 10:30 PM

Ack, you caught me. I'd just skimmed and saw Mystic, Shinobi, and er, the third one. OK, given that they're Monk, Ninja, Samurai, and Shugenja, I can look into it.

Of course... I really detest each of those classes, with the possible exception of the Shugenja (whose only real fault is the lack of splatbook support, and a bit of Healer-syndrome with the Water path), because they're hideously poorly designed - and at the same time I don't like ACFs or PrCs that are stealth rebalancers. Of course, you more-or-less won me over with the Proclaimer of Victory, so I'll have to give these a look. I'd love for them to actually work, of course.

EDIT: I have CWar and could judge the CWar Samurai, but this seems to be the OA version? Haven't read it yet (again...), but I see reference to Iaijutso... well, we'll see. If it is the OA Samurai, I can't help you.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-08, 10:39 PM

Ack, you caught me. I'd just skimmed and saw Mystic, Shinobi, and er, the third one. OK, given that they're Monk, Ninja, Samurai, and Shugenja, I can look into it.

I'll stick the class names at the end to prevent that from happening again.

Of course... I really detest each of those classes, with the possible exception of the Shugenja (whose only real fault is the lack of splatbook support, and a bit of Healer-syndrome with the Water path), because they're hideously poorly designed

You and me both; if I hadn't been paging through OA for kicks and giggles I wouldn't have touched them either, and I almost couldn't make myself look at the samurai abilities. :smallwink:

- and at the same time I don't like ACFs or PrCs that are stealth rebalancers. Of course, you more-or-less won me over with the Proclaimer of Victory, so I'll have to give these a look. I'd love for them to actually work, of course.

Honestly, it's less of a real attempt to rebalance them than it is an excuse to give some really good and flashy blood-type abilities (I feel I should make a joke involving blood types and O/A here...) because it won't really matter if it powers them up some. Something that might shoot a swordsage up a tier won't do much for a monk, so there's a bit more leeway for feature design there.

And thanks again for the PoV praise; hope you like these as well.

EDIT: I have CWar and could judge the CWar Samurai, but this seems to be the OA version? Haven't read it yet (again...), but I see reference to Iaijutso... well, we'll see. If it is the OA Samurai, I can't help you.

Nope, it's the CW one. They just get an ability called Iaijutsu master that gives them free Quick Draw with katana and wakizashi. No relation to Iaijutsu Focus or the Iaijutsu Master PrC.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-08, 11:08 PM

OK, that all sounds fine. Here's the Shugenja one, but that's as far as I'm getting tonight:

Disciples of the Sanguine Way - Pair O' Dice Lost
Well, interesting. Not a huge fan of the concept of blood magic in general, but then again once upon a time fey didn't interest me much either, hehe.

Mystic of the Pulsing Veins
I like this intro a lot better than the intro to the Sanguine Way itself, though the fact that I like the Shugenja better probably has something to do with that. Then again, Wood and Metal are both Wu Jen disciplines, and I kind of liked how the Shugenja used the western elements and the Wu Jen used the eastern ones. *shrug* All minor. Anyway, sounds good.

HD, Skills - Higher HD probably makes sense for a class dealing with blood, especially since I suspect they'll be damaging themselves... Autohypnosis... yeah, that also makes sense, I'm for that.

Blood Focus - Sooo... effectively, you're dual-specializing. Well, the 50% of your spells known being from your specialized element restriction is gone, since you have no elements that are neither specialized nor banned... Losing both Earth and Air seems a bit rough. That seems to hurt more than it helps.

Order of Pulsing Veins Spells - Blood Wind as a cantrip? Wow. The local Totemist is going to love you... Anyway, Puppeteer seems a bit strange, and I notice Blood Sirocco is missing, though I have no idea if the spell is any good and worth learning... Eh, whatever. I basically can't claim to know enough about these spells to really judge things.

Sense Blood - Interesting. I can't say I'd make this trade, though; you have so few spells as it is... Though I guess it does mean you'll pretty much never be ambushed if you're paying attention, which is rather nice. Yeah, I guess it's worth it.

Maho Component - Uhh... having a 750+ section seems dangerous to me. Sure, a potentially DC 42 Concentration check is problematic, but the fact that it doesn't scale means that True Resurrection hurts no more than Raise Dead. Not sure about that one. On the other hand, you're giving up another spell... ouch.

Anyway, I'll look at the rest tomorrow; I'm going to bed.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-08, 11:21 PM

Then again, Wood and Metal are both Wu Jen disciplines, and I kind of liked how the Shugenja used the western elements and the Wu Jen used the eastern ones.

Hence why orders teaching shugenja to use wood or metal would be few and far between. :smallwink:

Blood Focus - Sooo... effectively, you're dual-specializing. Well, the 50% of your spells known being from your specialized element restriction is gone, since you have no elements that are neither specialized nor banned... Losing both Earth and Air seems a bit rough. That seems to hurt more than it helps.

Keep in mind that there are spells of no element, so those would still fall in the non-specialized slots. I figured this wouldn't be as bad as it seems, since chances are you'd only be focusing on 1 or 2 elements anyway due to the division in spells known, but if it really seems to be too much of a drawback I can change it.

Hmm...would it make more sense to let them specialize in either water or fire and ban the others (ensuring more of a 50/50 element split) and then give a separate benefit to make up for the lost elements?

Order of Pulsing Veins Spells - Blood Wind as a cantrip? Wow. The local Totemist is going to love you... Anyway, Puppeteer seems a bit strange, and I notice Blood Sirocco is missing, though I have no idea if the spell is any good and worth learning... Eh, whatever. I basically can't claim to know enough about these spells to really judge things.

Puppeteer is there to represent controlling your opponent's movements via moving their blood (if you've seen the Avatar series, think Bloodbending). I considered blood sirocco, but it's just minor dessication damage. If you're not familiar with those spells, that's fine, someone else can eyeball those.

Maho Component - Uhh... having a 750+ section seems dangerous to me. Sure, a potentially DC 42 Concentration check is problematic, but the fact that it doesn't scale means that True Resurrection hurts no more than Raise Dead. Not sure about that one. On the other hand, you're giving up another spell... ouch.

That's copied verbatim from the OA blood magic class, so if it's good enough for WotC.... :smallwink: I figured the additional spell slot and spell known would be enough of a balancing factor, and from your reaction it seems I wasn't too far off.

Anyway, I'll look at the rest tomorrow; I'm going to bed.

Thanks much. Your critique is always appreciated.

zagan

2010-07-09, 10:25 AM

DragoonWraith going back to your Cabal warlock I've just found in another thread a feat from dragonmag 355 that can give two claw attack each dealing full eldritch blast damage + unarmed damage, I though you might find it interesting.

Anyway on to Peaching PairO'Dice Lost works,

The blood theme is a very nice idea and you use class with little support so that's cool too.

Mystic of the Pulsing Veins

Nice fluff.

HD: Bigger than normal but it's need.

Skills: Autohypnosis fit.

Blood focus: Very interesting, double specialization but double loss I think it's fair. Plus you gain spell focus for both.

-The Order of the Pulsing Veins spells:

0—blood wind: Thematic but as a 0 level spell it seem strong and could be useless if the party doesn't have anyone with natural attack (with Int 4 or more). As an alternative there's Discern Bloodline in RoD it's also first level but not overpowered at 0
1—blood frenzy:The name fit but it doesn't seem that great, again its usefull only if you have a barbarian in the party. I recommand Blade of blood from the PHB 2
2—puppeteer: This one I like.
3—burning blood: Very nice particulary one level early but it fit to well to change
4—bloodstar: Also very good, Blood of the Martyr from BoED could also work.
5—thalassemia: Okay fit with the blood theme and the water speciality, as an alternative you could go with Gelid blood from frostburn, it's not direct damage but inflict some nice penality, but both work.
6—parboil: Direct damage again, while the fluff mentionned blood and it's a fire spell I'm not sure it's the best one to use, but blood sirroco is not that great so let's go with that.
7—avasculate: Okay, cool Blood to Water (SpC) could also work.
8—extract blood elemental: Very cool, but it's normaly a 6 level spell so perhaps you could use Avasculate mass at 8 and this one at 7 ?
9—internal fire: Yeah, okay not much choice there. Red Tide (Spc) but it's only 8th level normaly.

Sense Blood: Yes, could be very usefull.

Maho Component: Cool, you might want to precise that DR and other ability don't prevent the hp loss.

Conclusions: Nice work on an underused class.

Shinobi of the Thousand Cuts:

HD: d8 instead of d6 good.

Skills: Make sense seing the fluff.

Bloodletting Strike: Very nice ability, just one thing you probably mean that the bleeding damage take effect the round after the attack but it's not clearly stat (or I miss it)

Bloodseeking Poison: You need to specify injury or contact poison otherwise with that wording any poison could be used and the +4 to the poison DC is strong. Raising the DC of any poison is really hard a +4 just like that is a big deal +2 could probably be better.

Flowing Ki: Interesting mechanic for the ninja that desesperatily need more ki and your wording mean that you must take the damage and heal it afterward.

Conclusions: Interesting addition to the ninja.

Warrior of the Bloodless Daisho

Okay, the ability will need to be impressive to bring the class up.

Hd: Good again.

Skills: More skill point and two more skill, okay even if the more skill point aren't really justified it's not a big deal.

Bloodcurdling Smite: Way more powerfull than normal and having the bonus damage depending on skill rank is original. Normaly I would say that the blinded or deafened effect is a little too much but it's a samurai so.

Shogun of Fear: Bonus feat okay, source could be nice (CW yes but still)

Disembowel: Wow, very very nice.

Conclusions: You don't lose anything by taking this sub level and the ability are good but seing what the base is I won't complain.

Grandmaster of the Crimson Path

HD: Same as the other

Still the Beating Heart: Very nice, not too strong not too weak. The only thing that bother me is that you gain it at 3rd while the class feature that replace it is gained at 7th, you should lose still mind instead even if it's more thematic.

Ride the Crimson River: A variant of the blood magus capstone at ECL 9 instead of ECL 15, it's a move action instead of standard far less distance and less damage plus the creature are flat-footed. While the flavor is awesome that's a little much even for a monk and again it replace something that's gain later.

Mingle the Lifeblood: I love this one, the flavor is great the mechanic is interesting and the effect is useful. Not complaint on this one.

Conclusions: You might want to work on the first two ability particulary the second one.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-09, 10:53 AM

0—blood wind: Thematic but as a 0 level spell it seem strong and could be useless if the party doesn't have anyone with natural attack (with Int 4 or more). As an alternative there's Discern Bloodline in RoD it's also first level but not overpowered at 0
1—blood frenzy:The name fit but it doesn't seem that great, again its usefull only if you have a barbarian in the party. I recommand Blade of blood from the PHB 2

I knew I'd regret lending out my PHBs and Races books; I didn't even think to check them for spells. Thanks for the suggestions.

8—extract blood elemental: Very cool, but it's normaly a 6 level spell so perhaps you could use Avasculate mass at 8 and this one at 7 ?

I bumped it up two levels because blood elementals are better than basic water elementals, and though they're only Medium there can be more of them at once, which is an advantage. If you really think it's not worth it, though, I can bring it down.

Maho Component: Cool, you might want to precise that DR and other ability don't prevent the hp loss.

Point.

Bloodletting Strike: Very nice ability, just one thing you probably mean that the bleeding damage take effect the round after the attack but it's not clearly stat (or I miss it)

"Each round thereafter" is supposed to mean "every round starting the next round," but I'll clarify that.

Bloodseeking Poison: You need to specify injury or contact poison otherwise with that wording any poison could be used and the +4 to the poison DC is strong. Raising the DC of any poison is really hard a +4 just like that is a big deal +2 could probably be better.

Well, I thought it was clear that it had to be injury or contact poison, since it's on your weapon...but I guess I can see people trying to stick an ingested poison on there. :smallsigh: I'll change that.

On the poison DC, yes it's hard to raise the DCs, but (A) there are enough feats and items out there that you can get much better than +4 with one or two of them and (B) without such a boost poisons really aren't cost-effective, and I'm trying to give an incentive to use poison more with this feature.

Flowing Ki: Interesting mechanic for the ninja that desesperatily need more ki and your wording mean that you must take the damage and heal it afterward.

Yep. Also note that it's Con burn, meaning no magical healing. I wanted to give the ninja some more uses per day, but not to the extent that a wand of restoration lets him use abilities at will.

Bloodcurdling Smite: Way more powerfull than normal and having the bonus damage depending on skill rank is original. Normaly I would say that the blinded or deafened effect is a little too much but it's a samurai so.

Blindness/deafness is a 2nd level spell that you get at 3rd level that causes permanent blindness or deafness, caster's choice. Bloodcurdling Smite is a feature that you get at 3rd level that causes permanent blindness or deafness, determined randomly. Plus the spell can be prepared multiple times per day to start with where the Smite is only 1/day.

Still the Beating Heart: Very nice, not too strong not too weak. The only thing that bother me is that you gain it at 3rd while the class feature that replace it is gained at 7th, you should lose still mind instead even if it's more thematic.

Whoops. It should be at the level you get Wholeness of Body; if something in there says 3rd, it's a copy-paste error from one of the others. I'll fix that.

Ride the Crimson River: A variant of the blood magus capstone at ECL 9 instead of ECL 15, it's a move action instead of standard far less distance and less damage plus the creature are flat-footed. While the flavor is awesome that's a little much even for a monk and again it replace something that's gain later.

[...]

Conclusions: You might want to work on the first two ability particulary the second one.

Looks like I forgot to change the level on this one too. It should be at the same level as Abundant Step, so level 12.

I really want to keep this one in there, since thinking "You know, 10 levels of Blood Magus is too much for such a limited Bloodwalk, but that would be really cool on a monk or ninja" was what started me on this theme. I'd have thought the shorter distance and LoS requirement would tone it down sufficiently; you can't teleport through barriers or even total concealment with it, and with the monk's speed being 70 feet at that level, I'd say teleporting 100 feet and flat-footing your opponent is about on par with taking one of the various abilities granting an extra move action, as it's a bit worse than using the action to move again and a bit better than using it to feint an opponent. So it's basically Improved Feint + Travel Devotion plus a bit more, which I think is okay for a 12th-level class feature.

Thanks for the PEACHes; I'll go make those changes now.

EDIT: Changes made.

zagan

2010-07-09, 02:17 PM

I knew I'd regret lending out my PHBs and Races books; I didn't even think to check them for spells. Thanks for the suggestions.

Glad you like them.

I bumped it up two levels because blood elementals are better than basic water elementals, and though they're only Medium there can be more of them at once, which is an advantage. If you really think it's not worth it, though, I can bring it down.

Blodd elementale aren't stronger by that much and the size difference is a serious problem because one big creature is often better than multiple small one. You could just calculate the stat of large and huge blood elementale and put it in a spoiler that could bring it 8 level (barely)

"Each round thereafter" is supposed to mean "every round starting the next round," but I'll clarify that.

That's what I understand but clarity is always appreciate.

Well, I thought it was clear that it had to be injury or contact poison, since it's on your weapon...but I guess I can see people trying to stick an ingested poison on there. :smallsigh: I'll change that.

Yeah it's silly but some people are like that.

On the poison DC, yes it's hard to raise the DCs, but (A) there are enough feats and items out there that you can get much better than +4 with one or two of them and (B) without such a boost poisons really aren't cost-effective, and I'm trying to give an incentive to use poison more with this feature.

There's not that many way to do it, most feat give a +2 and the only item I could find is the assasination special property for a max of +5. Still your right in that it's not cost effective.

Blindness/deafness is a 2nd level spell that you get at 3rd level that causes permanent blindness or deafness, caster's choice. Bloodcurdling Smite is a feature that you get at 3rd level that causes permanent blindness or deafness, determined randomly. Plus the spell can be prepared multiple times per day to start with where the Smite is only 1/day.

That's true

Whoops. It should be at the level you get Wholeness of Body; if something in there says 3rd, it's a copy-paste error from one of the others. I'll fix that.

Okay.

Looks like I forgot to change the level on this one too. It should be at the same level as Abundant Step, so level 12.

I really want to keep this one in there, since thinking "You know, 10 levels of Blood Magus is too much for such a limited Bloodwalk, but that would be really cool on a monk or ninja" was what started me on this theme. I'd have thought the shorter distance and LoS requirement would tone it down sufficiently; you can't teleport through barriers or even total concealment with it, and with the monk's speed being 70 feet at that level, I'd say teleporting 100 feet and flat-footing your opponent is about on par with taking one of the various abilities granting an extra move action, as it's a bit worse than using the action to move again and a bit better than using it to feint an opponent. So it's basically Improved Feint + Travel Devotion plus a bit more, which I think is okay for a 12th-level class feature.

At 12th level with the limitation its alright.

Thanks for the PEACHes; I'll go make those changes now.

Glad to help.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-09, 02:34 PM

Blodd elementale aren't stronger by that much and the size difference is a serious problem because one big creature is often better than multiple small one. You could just calculate the stat of large and huge blood elementale and put it in a spoiler that could bring it 8 level (barely)

I suppose you're right. I'll swap the levels around.

PId6

2010-07-09, 06:16 PM

Okay, I finished swordsage and updated warblade, removing the loss of White Raven but making changed maneuvers only work with ranged attacks. Managed to cross the upper character limit by 5000 characters, so had to make a new post for swordsage (hence the repost to keep them together).

Would anyone mind reading over the swordsage rules to see if they make sense? I'm very conflicted over them, since they came out much wordier than I originally intended and I'm still not sure if it's even understandable to anyone else. If it's too convoluted, I may remove swordsage entirely or come up with something else.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-09, 06:35 PM

Would anyone mind reading over the swordsage rules to see if they make sense? I'm very conflicted over them, since they came out much wordier than I originally intended and I'm still not sure if it's even understandable to anyone else. If it's too convoluted, I may remove swordsage entirely or come up with something else.

Looks clear enough to me. The only thing I'd clarify would be the issue of what "directly after readying maneuvers" means--is it in the same round? Does it require an action?

PId6

2010-07-09, 08:30 PM

I looked over Sanguine Way sub levels. Most of it looked great and were nice additions on underwhelming classes. A few specific comments:

You should put the (Ex) tag on most of the abilities, especially the ones that require activation. Abilities not designated as (Ex), (Sp), or (Su) default to natural abilities, which might not be what you're going for.

Maho Component: I'm worried that it's a bit too good. "Free" spells that normally require material components can be quite broken, but I'm not familiar enough with the shugenja list to be sure.

Bloodletting Strike: Would be nice to have a clearer indication of when the damage is dealt. Something like "every round at the start of your turn" would work.

Disembowel: Wow, this is incredibly powerful. It's pretty much a 3-5/day instant-kill ability. On anything else, I'd be tempted to call it too good, but on CW samurai that's not so clear. Reminds me of the Conjunctive Gate utterance. If a PC has this, BBEGs everywhere had better beware.

Ride the Crimson River: This would be a lot more useful if the monk can actually Flurry with a standard action. Perhaps increase the damage dealt a bit or cause some bleeding with the entrance/exit so that it's better for more than just movement?

Mingle the Lifeblood: The best use I can think of for this is to link up with your entire party to sense their location and status at all times, though the damage can be annoying when using it on allies. Maybe allow a variable amount of damage of the monk's choice so that he can choose to make it more or less damaging?

Looks clear enough to me. The only thing I'd clarify would be the issue of what "directly after readying maneuvers" means--is it in the same round? Does it require an action?
Thanks. Glad it makes sense to somebody else. It's meant to be immediately afterward and requires no action; I've added a line to clarify. The "after readying maneuvers" part was mostly because it's the best workaround I can find to make it do what I want without making the language even more complicated.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-09, 08:44 PM

You should put the (Ex) tag on most of the abilities, especially the ones that require activation. Abilities not designated as (Ex), (Sp), or (Su) default to natural abilities, which might not be what you're going for.

Will do.

Maho Component: I'm worried that it's a bit too good. "Free" spells that normally require material components can be quite broken, but I'm not familiar enough with the shugenja list to be sure.

As mentioned before, this already exists in a Rokugan PrC and nobody seems to think that's OMGWTF powerful, so this shouldn't be too bad. Plus, the shugenja list isn't the best around--they don't get any of the good blasting spells that would make this good for metamagic abuse, and the only spell they have that would benefit from cost reduction is true resurrection at 18th level.

Bloodletting Strike: Would be nice to have a clearer indication of when the damage is dealt. Something like "every round at the start of your turn" would work.

Bleeding damage is kinda vague by the rules, as none of the other such abilities specify a time. I guess beginning of the ninja's turn works as well as anything else.

Disembowel: Wow, this is incredibly powerful. It's pretty much a 3-5/day instant-kill ability. On anything else, I'd be tempted to call it too good, but on CW samurai that's not so clear. Reminds me of the Conjunctive Gate utterance. If a PC has this, BBEGs everywhere had better beware.

Yeah, it's pretty good, but a 15th-level samurai doesn't really have the capability to cheese out the Fort save too much; even using a Smite with this, that's 1d10+18+Str damage when you first get it, and assuming around a 22 Str, a DC of 25-34 shouldn't be too unmanageable. I can decrease the uses per day down if you think it's too much.

Ride the Crimson River: This would be a lot more useful if the monk can actually Flurry with a standard action. Perhaps increase the damage dealt a bit or cause some bleeding with the entrance/exit so that it's better for more than just movement?

Well, it was meant to be mostly for movement, as it's replacing Abundant Step, a purely-movement ability; the flat-footing and damage are just minor perks.

Mingle the Lifeblood: The best use I can think of for this is to link up with your entire party to sense their location and status at all times, though the damage can be annoying when using it on allies. Maybe allow a variable amount of damage of the monk's choice so that he can choose to make it more or less damaging?

I hadn't thought of that, actually; it was meant to be more useful in tracking down an elusive BBEG type, but I think I'll make that change.

PId6

2010-07-09, 10:19 PM

Yeah, it's pretty good, but a 15th-level samurai doesn't really have the capability to cheese out the Fort save too much; even using a Smite with this, that's 1d10+18+Str damage when you first get it, and assuming around a 22 Str, a DC of 25-34 shouldn't be too unmanageable. I can decrease the uses per day down if you think it's too much.
Don't forget that coup-de-grace auto-hits, which means you can Power Attack for massive damage, not to mention it auto-crits as well for scythe-wielding pain. Even a basic 1d10+18+Str becomes around DC 68 with a simple x2 crit. If the auto-hit/auto-crit wasn't intended, definitely specify that.

Lowering uses per day doesn't really affect much, since you only need one to kill the BBEG. Lowering it just makes it less useful on an everyday basis against mooks. If it's not meant to automatically hit and crit though, the limitations are probably enough to balance it. You will have to start out next to them, you have to actually hit, and they might not automatically die even if you do, so it shouldn't cause too many problems. By current rules though, it's death upon pretty much anyone guaranteed.

Well, it was meant to be mostly for movement, as it's replacing Abundant Step, a purely-movement ability; the flat-footing and damage are just minor perks.
I'm just not sure when I might actually want to use it. It doesn't work in Solid Fogs or locked rooms thanks to the LoS requirement. It requires someone next to you, so it could be helpful if the entire party is trapped in an open Forcecage or something, but that's the extent of it that I can see. Monks have high enough movement speed already that you shouldn't have any trouble getting close to an enemy, especially if you have flight (and at that level, you should). I guess you can use it to get next to some kind of AoO tripper or Stand Still user, but you'll only get one hit in, so it's not going to help that much.

Still much better than Abundant Step though.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-09, 10:46 PM

Don't forget that coup-de-grace auto-hits, which means you can Power Attack for massive damage, not to mention it auto-crits as well for scythe-wielding pain. Even a basic 1d10+18+Str becomes around DC 68 with a simple x2 crit. If the auto-hit/auto-crit wasn't intended, definitely specify that.

I already did; it only resolves as a CDG if you hit, you don't get the auto-hit or the auto-crit. I was probably editing my post when you were writing yours.

I'm just not sure when I might actually want to use it. It doesn't work in Solid Fogs or locked rooms thanks to the LoS requirement. It requires someone next to you, so it could be helpful if the entire party is trapped in an open Forcecage or something, but that's the extent of it that I can see. Monks have high enough movement speed already that you shouldn't have any trouble getting close to an enemy, especially if you have flight (and at that level, you should). I guess you can use it to get next to some kind of AoO tripper or Stand Still user, but you'll only get one hit in, so it's not going to help that much.

Still much better than Abundant Step though.

The bolded part is the most important part (:smallwink:) but it isn't quite as useless as it would seem. The main goals for this ability are the following:
Give the monk more mobility options than just higher speed. He might not be able to fly at his full land speed, enemies might be behind bars, etc.
Look cool. Can't forget that, can we?
Give the monk a way to deal with tank types and casters a bit more easily. This way they can get through a lockdown build's defenses, as you mentioned, and possibly avoid triggering contingencies and moving through battlefield control effects, and since the destination creature is flat-footed until the end of the monk's next turn they actually can make a flurry against flat-footed AC.

Again, it's not supposed to be awesome, just a step up from Abundant Step with the perks I mentioned. One thing I had in there before that I took out because I thought it was too good was the ability to jump to someone whose name you know regardless of LoE or LoS, kind of like how the blood magus can carry around vials of blood to jump to a specific individual. Would that make this any more useful, do you think?

PId6

2010-07-09, 11:13 PM

I already did; it only resolves as a CDG if you hit, you don't get the auto-hit or the auto-crit. I was probably editing my post when you were writing yours.
It's still a bit ambiguous whether you get a critical hit because of it. You should either make a direct statement to that effect or, alternatively, remove the "coup-de-grace" part entirely and just say the creature must make a DC 10 + damage dealt Fortitude save or die (this does not affect crit-immunes, etc).

But yeah, with the fix it should be fine.

One thing I had in there before that I took out because I thought it was too good was the ability to jump to someone whose name you know regardless of LoE or LoS, kind of like how the blood magus can carry around vials of blood to jump to a specific individual. Would that make this any more useful, do you think?
That'd be pretty cool. It'd mostly be used to jump to allies, and can be fun if used creatively. I like it. Yeah, I think you should add it. If you feel really mean, have it require the target's true name and need a Truespeak check to perform. :smalltongue:

Better yet, how about having it allow you to jump to anyone affected by your Mingle the Lifeblood ability?

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-09, 11:19 PM

It's still a bit ambiguous whether you get a critical hit because of it. You should either make a direct statement to that effect or, alternatively, remove the "coup-de-grace" part entirely and just say the creature must make a DC 10 + damage dealt Fortitude save or die (this does not affect crit-immunes, etc).

But yeah, with the fix it should be fine.

Will do.

That'd be pretty cool. It'd mostly be used to jump to allies, and can be fun if used creatively. I like it. Yeah, I think you should add it. If you feel really mean, have it require the target's true name and need a Truespeak check to perform. :smalltongue:

Truespeak? I'm trying to make these classes suck less!

Better yet, how about having it allow you to jump to anyone affected by your Mingle the Lifeblood ability?

I was thinking along those lines as well. Perhaps I'll make it so you can jump to anyone whose name you know without LoS or LoE, and Mingle the Lifeblood lets you exceed the range limitations as well. "Ain't no mountain high enough, ain't no valley low enough...."

zagan

2010-07-10, 07:56 AM

Peach for the desert Swordsage.

Very nice image and the fluff is very interesting too.

Skills: You kept the typo of *6 at first level.:smallsmile:
The new skill make perfect sense.

Dichotomy of Day and Night: You sacrifice one discipline and replace another completely but it seem fair.

Arcane Focus: This is a good idea and fit perfectly.

Force of the Tranquil Storm: This is also a good idea.

Stance of the Insatiable Wind: Nice this allow to compensate for the specialization a little.

Arcane Disciplines:
-The no component, xp or foci could in theory be abused but you probably chose spell for wich it didn't matter, so it's not a problem.
-Wisdom based arcane caster is a first but it's the stat used by standard swordsage and we don't want mad.
-The ability to use either of the base discipline or the arcane one as prerequisite is nice but probably useless because you can only gained maneuver from the discipline via feat.

Arcane sun:
-It's a little weird to see stance at every level (except nine) because for the discipline it's roughly every two level but okay.

-Haze of smoldering stone: Does knowing this spell also grant the fire resistance as normal ?
-Haste: as a stance is pretty strong but at the level it's porbably acceptable

Blackened Moon:

-I like the image of cloud of knives

Arcane Maneuvers and Requirements: The funny thing is that it allow you to enter the jade phoenix mage prc without multiclassing.

Metamagic: A nice list.

Conclusions: A very good work, ireally like it.

PId6

2010-07-11, 06:04 PM

Peach for the desert Swordsage.
Thanks, much appreciated.

Skills: You kept the typo of *6 at first level.:smallsmile:
Feature, not a bug. Swordsages are just too awesome for x4 at first level. :smallcool:

Stance of the Insatiable Wind: Nice this allow to compensate for the specialization a little.
I feel like this is really something that should have been with the swordsage to begin with. Desert Wind becomes pretty bad once enemies start getting fire resistance/immunity, so there really should have been a way to negate that in order for that discipline to be on par with the others. Likewise for Stone Dragon's "must stand on earth" requirement.

-The no component, xp or foci could in theory be abused but you probably chose spell for wich it didn't matter, so it's not a problem.
Yeah, I don't think there's a single spell on there that requires XP, and the only material components are either costless or relatively cheap.

-The ability to use either of the base discipline or the arcane one as prerequisite is nice but probably useless because you can only gained maneuver from the discipline via feat.
Well, if you started out as a desert warblade/crusader with some Desert Wind maneuvers and then multiclass into desert swordsage, it would matter. It's a minor thing, but could be important at times.

Arcane sun:
-It's a little weird to see stance at every level (except nine) because for the discipline it's roughly every two level but okay.
It's because the arcane disciplines are basically supposed to be almost twice as large, simply because you give up two disciplines to gain them. They likewise have more maneuvers at each level than traditional disciplines, and I added an extra 9th level maneuver to each.

-Haze of smoldering stone: Does knowing this spell also grant the fire resistance as normal ?
Thanks, I missed that. Added a note saying you don't gain the fire resistance.

Conclusions: A very good work, ireally like it.
Thank you.

Hyooz

2010-07-11, 10:36 PM

Raptoran Druid is (finally) up!

I definitely have some concerns about the current level 15 ability, and for avian companion, I was debating between its current form and giving animal companions a fly speed. It seems really good... but shapeshift is a significant hit to the Druid's power, so I'm not sure. What do you folks think?

PId6

2010-07-11, 10:55 PM

Raptorian Druid PEACH:

To take a Raptoran Druid substitution level, a character must be a Raptoran, and be about to take his 1st, 5th, or 13th level of Druid.
Typo (or copy/paste error). That should be 15th judging from table and ability text.

Raptorian Shapeshifting: Very interesting ability, quite fitting for a shapeshifting raptorian druid. I like it.

Avian Companion: I like it just the way it is. Rather than lose your AC entirely, you keep a more limited and thematic version of it. I definitely prefer this version to just giving all ACs wings, since shapeshift variant is balanced enough that buffing AC isn't necessary, and it would be a bit strange seeing flying riding dogs all over the place.

Natural Flight: Not sure if you intended it that way, but you can't take this level if you take Raptorian Shapeshifting, since they both replace Wild Shape. Unfortunately for this ability, you'd never want to actually give up Wild Shape for it, since you can change into bird forms with faster fly speeds anyway. If this is just a free ability on a shapeshifting druid who's already given up Wild Shape, then it's fine. But for a druid that actually still has Wild Shape (which is the currently only ones able to take it), it's a huge loss of power and isn't really usable in comparison. You should probably put a qualifier on it saying that you can take this even if you took the 1st substitution level.

Aerial Mastery: This is incredibly powerful. You should probably name what you lose for this ability (Timeless Body?). As is, though, it seems way too powerful to just have +3 worth of free metamagic on all of your spells. Perhaps limit it to [Air] spells, change it to a few times per day, and/or change it to a smaller boost, like free Enlarge/Silent/Still or a caster level boost.

Hyooz

2010-07-11, 11:27 PM

Raptorian Druid PEACH:
Typo (or copy/paste error). That should be 15th judging from table and ability text.

D'oh. (Fixed)

Raptorian Shapeshifting: Very interesting ability, quite fitting for a shapeshifting raptorian druid. I like it.

Avian Companion: I like it just the way it is. Rather than lose your AC entirely, you keep a more limited and thematic version of it. I definitely prefer this version to just giving all ACs wings, since shapeshift variant is balanced enough that buffing AC isn't necessary, and it would be a bit strange seeing flying riding dogs all over the place.

Works for me. I do like it the way it is too, a friend of mine just presented the winged companion idea, and I started mulling it over.

Natural Flight: Not sure if you intended it that way, but you can't take this level if you take Raptorian Shapeshifting, since they both replace Wild Shape. Unfortunately for this ability, you'd never want to actually give up Wild Shape for it, since you can change into bird forms with faster fly speeds anyway. If this is just a free ability on a shapeshifting druid who's already given up Wild Shape, then it's fine. But for a druid that actually still has Wild Shape (which is the currently only ones able to take it), it's a huge loss of power and isn't really usable in comparison. You should probably put a qualifier on it saying that you can take this even if you took the 1st substitution level.

Will make a note of that. You're right about fly speeds not being worth Wildshape on their own, though. I put in that loss of Wildshape to prevent someone grabbing the sub level and keeping wildshape and a good natural flight ability... which wouldn't make that much of a difference, because you have Wildshape.

Aerial Mastery: This is incredibly powerful. You should probably name what you lose for this ability (Timeless Body?). As is, though, it seems way too powerful to just have +3 worth of free metamagic on all of your spells. Perhaps limit it to [Air] spells, change it to a few times per day, and/or change it to a smaller boost, like free Enlarge/Silent/Still or a caster level boost.

Yeah... believe it or not I was having issues coming up with ideas at the time, and knew I wanted something in this vein, so I laid this OP ability out as a sort of PEACH trap >.>

Thanks for the ideas. And yeah, Timeless Body.

zagan

2010-07-12, 07:41 AM

PId6 has already PEACH the raptoran druid but I also want to do so if only for completness sake.

Raptoran druid:

Raptoran Shapeshifting: This variant was always considered more balanced than normal wildshape so that's nice even if weaker.

Avian Companion: The wording is a little weird and I'm not sure it augmented the standard animal companion ability. You have less choice after all, perhaps counting as 1 level higher for the purpose of determining companion ability ?

Natural Flight: Nice but as was sais it can't replace wildshape because you've already lost it if you've taken the first level. Perhasp you can only take this sub level if you've taken the first one ?

Aerial Mastery: Nice in theory but very few druid spell with the air descriptor benefit from maximized. In fact i've only found two cloud spear (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050114a) and Flaywind burst (Sand p115) plus of course summoning spell when use to summon multiple lower level air elemental.
You might want to give more option

Conclusions: Not bad at all even if probably weaker than normal druid but seeing their base power it's not a bad thing really.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-13, 04:58 PM

OK, I need to catch up here:
Druid Substitution Levels - Hyooz
Raptoran Druid
Nice, I like the fluff.

Raptoran Shapeshifting - Uhhh.... PHB2's Shapeshift ACF replaced Wildshape and the Animal Companion, that's why you get it at 1st level. Giving up something you wouldn't have gotten until 5th for something at 1st seems like a bad plan. Hell, what's to stop them from just "not taking the 5th level substitution"? No DM would allow it, but I don't think substitution levels can do cross-level swaps like that. ACFs can, but this isn't an ACF...

I mean, as an ACF, this is pretty solid, though it's strictly better than Shapeshift and simultaneously costs less, which is kind of bizarre.

Avian Companion - So this gets limited, but not eliminated (as with Shapeshift). In general I don't really have a problem with this (except insofar as it affects Shapeshift), but I think calling it an "augmentation" is a little silly.

Natural Flight - How can you take this if you've already replaced Wildshape with Raptoran Shapeshifting? I mean, it's otherwise fine, but...

Aerial Mastery - Free +3 Metamagic in exchange for a useless fluff-feature? Uhh....

Conclusion - It's overpowered. And it's on a Druid, so that's a serious statement. Yes, Raptoran Shapeshifting is not as good (read: abusable) as Wildshape, but that doesn't really get any sympathy from me. The fluff works fine, but I don't like the way the class ends up.

To be continued! Heading out to dinner, but I figured I'd let Hyooz and Dice get an early glimpse. I do intend to get everyone.

EDIT: Continued below.

Hyooz

2010-07-13, 05:21 PM

PId6

2010-07-13, 05:42 PM

Aerial Mastery - Free +3 Metamagic in exchange for a useless fluff-feature? Uhh....
I disagree here. The number of [Air] spells a druid gets that can actually benefit from the ability is quite low. Here's a list:

Cloud Spear (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20050114a) - Very minor boost in damage.
Downdraft (SpC) - Arguably affects fall damage. Not a big difference.
Eye of the Hurricane (SpC) - Pushes back enemies a bit further. Meh.
Favorable Wind (Wet) - Same as previous, only even more minor.
Flaywind Burst (Hot) - Decent blasting and control. One of the best uses of the Maximize.
Gust of Wind (PHB) - Same as Favorable Wind.
Haboob (Hot) - Minor damage increase. Decent control spell.
Storm Mote (Hot) - Very minor damage increase.
Summon Nature's Ally (PHB) - Just for summoning multiple Air Elementals from a lower level list. Probably best and most common use of it.
Whirlwind (PHB) - Minor damage increase.
Whirlwind, Greater (SpC) - Like Whirlwind and Eye of the Hurricane.

So the ability boosts a few situational spells in a small way, makes Flaywind Burst a decent damage spell, and makes summoning air elementals more reliable. For +3 worth of free metamagic, that doesn't really do all that much. At 15th level, it's not going to affect druid power much, if at all, so this is not much better than a flavor ability as well. Seems reasonable to me, since Raptorian is far from an optimal druid race anyway.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-13, 06:52 PM

Shinobi of the Thousand Cuts
Intro is amusing, though I'd think that if you don't have at least some modicum of acrobatic ability, you cease to be a ninja, really... Anyway, it's fine.

It just says acrobatics aren't as effective as poisoning; the Disciples are of the opinion that this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HighlyVisibleNinja) leads to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkLXdLgOybE), so you're better off sneaking up, slicing someone up, and sneaking away.

Bloodletting Strike - Damage on this is going to ramp up rapidly; 3 damage is only slightly less than the average, and after two rounds you're well ahead of the curve. Of course, not a lot of fights last that long, particularly a single opponent. I say this is fine.

That's the whole point, really, with the whole "many cuts are better than one" theme. The idea here is that they trade spike damage now to pull ahead in damage later.

Flowing Ki - God knows the Ninja needs this, but 2 Con burn is a really harsh penalty. Not sure I'd want to lose the Will in favor of Fort, either. I was also kind of hoping for a way to create poison... Anyway, this is flavorful, and as an option it can't hurt the Ninja. Their Ki per day really is abysmal...

Can you think of another penalty that would be more fitting? Con loss is pretty solidly linked with blood loss, but if I make it damage or drain he can just pick up some restoration items and have as much ki as he wants.

Conclusion
I would have liked some way for the Ninja to create poison from his blood. It seems fitting and would help make Bloodseeking Poison and Poison Use more meaningful. Other than that, though, this is pretty good, for a Ninja...

I really wanted to put in an ability that lets him make poison, but I wasn't sure whether it would be too much on top of the other abilities. If you don't think it's too much, I can easily add something in there. Something like "spend a ki point and X HP to create Y poison," to link in with the blood and the ki-refreshing ability?

Hmm. Perhaps I could simply replace the DC increaser with the poison generation ability as part of Bloodseeking Poison, since a higher DC doesn't matter as much if you're not wasting so much money on poison that you really need it to work every time. I'll think about how to make that work.

Shogun of Fear - The mechanism here seems odd; why not make it Kiai Shout (or Greater Kiai Shout if he already has Kiai Shout), and Freezing the Lifeblood etc.? And the blatant improvement of the class makes this a gimme, but well, it's the CW Samurai...

Mostly because you can already get both Shout feats by this level easily, but if you don't get them you really should for the theme. Although, on second thought, the fact that you'll probably take them anyway means I can probably just give them Freezing the Lifeblood to start with. I'll do that.

Conclusion
There seems to be rather little here that is actually "bloodless", I'd say. Shogun of Fear, certainly, but it's the only one. Other than that, this definitely is more interesting than the CW Samurai (well... what wouldn't be...), and actually keeps the theme pretty well. I like it well enough, which is to say I still wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft. pole, but, well, ya know, CW Samurai. Your improvements are quite well done, considering what you had to work with.

Well, two of the three are more fear than bloodshed. The first one basically scares someone out of their wits and blinds/deafens them from the force of your shout; the bursting blood vessel fluff is there because...well, c'mon, you're blowing up people's eyes with your voice! :smallwink: The third one is definitely more direct-combat oriented, but it fits the samurai theme better than any of the other ideas I had.

Hit Die - Well, yeah, they need it. Just, it should be all Monks. It seems odd for these substitution levels to get d10s when all other Monk levels get d8s...

You'll notice each class gets a 1-step increase in HD from these sub levels because of the blood = life-force theme and because the monk, shugenja, and ninja end up lowering their HP to use some abilities.

Still the Beating Heart - This is totally awesome. Just saying.

:smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the additional critique.

EDIT: Whoops, looks like DW removed the critique I quoted. I'll leave this up here for now, so he can take my responses into consideration for his next post.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-13, 08:08 PM

I have a decent idea for how I'm going to fix the Raptoran Druid. It'll probably involve moving the shapeshift to 5th level, adding another small feature to the first level substitution so that limiting your companion is worth it, and then slipping flight in a little later. I liked the idea of augmenting your casting while flying, but it doesn't work out well. It can't be a big boost, because any decent raptoran at that level will be flying almost always anyway, and anything too small becomes not worth it.
Sounds good, and as πd6 suggests, the Maximize thing might not be too strong.

I disagree here. The number of [Air] spells a druid gets that can actually benefit from the ability is quite low.
That's true; I didn't realize the list was so weak. Maybe it's not such a big deal after all.

Anyway, continuing my PEACH (cut and paste over to this post to keep it in one place):
Rokugan Blood Magic Substitution Levels - Pair O' Dice Lost
Shinobi of the Thousand Cuts
Intro is amusing, though I'd think that if you don't have at least some modicum of acrobatic ability, you cease to be a ninja, really... Anyway, it's fine.

Skills - A slight upgrade, I think, as these are somewhat better skills than those lost, but only slightly.

Bloodletting Strike - Damage on this is going to ramp up rapidly; 3 damage is only slightly less than the average, and after two rounds you're well ahead of the curve. Of course, not a lot of fights last that long, particularly a single opponent. I say this is fine.

Bloodseeking Poison - Neat - or would be, if poison wasn't so problematic. Still, that's a problem that really can't be fixed with substitution levels, I think. The effect is nice and appreciated by the right sort of Ninja.

Flowing Ki - God knows the Ninja needs this, but 2 Con burn is a really harsh penalty. Not sure I'd want to lose the Will in favor of Fort, either. I was also kind of hoping for a way to create poison... Anyway, this is flavorful, and as an option it can't hurt the Ninja. Their Ki per day really is abysmal...

Conclusion
I would have liked some way for the Ninja to create poison from his blood. It seems fitting and would help make Bloodseeking Poison and Poison Use more meaningful. Other than that, though, this is pretty good, for a Ninja...

Warrior of the Bloodless Daisho
Heh, I like the intro.

Bloodcurdling Smite - Whoa, crazy. Still, I like it; it seems fitting and it's a much-needed improvement.

Shogun of Fear - The mechanism here seems odd; why not make it Kiai Shout (or Greater Kiai Shout if he already has Kiai Shout), and Freezing the Lifeblood etc.? And the blatant improvement of the class makes this a gimme, but well, it's the CW Samurai...

Disembowel - There are going to be a lot of situations where this save is going to happen only on a 20. It seems... well, by 15th, considering you need to be in melee, you need to full-attack, you need to hit... yeah, I'm not sure this is overpowered. Only because of how screwed up the game gets at 15th, though.

Conclusion
There seems to be rather little here that is actually "bloodless", I'd say. Shogun of Fear, certainly, but it's the only one. Other than that, this definitely is more interesting than the CW Samurai (well... what wouldn't be...), and actually keeps the theme pretty well. I like it well enough, which is to say I still wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft. pole, but, well, ya know, CW Samurai. Your improvements are quite well done, considering what you had to work with.

Grandmaster of the Crimson Path
Like the other intros, is amusing and well written. Not much else to be said.

Hit Die - Well, yeah, they need it. Just, it should be all Monks. It seems odd for these substitution levels to get d10s when all other Monk levels get d8s...

Still the Beating Heart - This is totally awesome. Just saying.

Ride the Crimson River - As the Blood Magus? Anyway, nifty feature. Maybe add a way to Flurry against the guy on the end? The names thing is cool, as is the thing with Mingle.

Mingle the Lifeblood - Whoa, this is really cool. I like this a lot!

Conclusion
Excellent work here, it fits the Monk, your theme, and it provides some fixes to Monk problems without really powering them up, just removing a lot of stupid daily (and... weekly...) limitations. Very, very well done, I think.

It just says acrobatics aren't as effective as poisoning; the Disciples are of the opinion that this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HighlyVisibleNinja) leads to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkLXdLgOybE), so you're better off sneaking up, slicing someone up, and sneaking away.
Fair enough.

That's the whole point, really, with the whole "many cuts are better than one" theme. The idea here is that they trade spike damage now to pull ahead in damage later.
Yeah, I was just thinking aloud (in type?) there. By the time I thought it through I came to agree with you.

Can you think of another penalty that would be more fitting? Con loss is pretty solidly linked with blood loss, but if I make it damage or drain he can just pick up some restoration items and have as much ki as he wants.
Honestly, I don't think the standard Hellfire Warlock "issues" are much of a problem here. I mean, it's the Ninja. Even infinite Ki doesn't let them do anything too game-breaking. And the standard solutions (Strongheart Vest, Naberius) wouldn't work nearly so well if it was 2 Con damage instead of 1.

I really wanted to put in an ability that lets him make poison, but I wasn't sure whether it would be too much on top of the other abilities. If you don't think it's too much, I can easily add something in there. Something like "spend a ki point and X HP to create Y poison," to link in with the blood and the ki-refreshing ability?

Hmm. Perhaps I could simply replace the DC increaser with the poison generation ability as part of Bloodseeking Poison, since a higher DC doesn't matter as much if you're not wasting so much money on poison that you really need it to work every time. I'll think about how to make that work.
I didn't have specific thoughts on the matter, I just thought it would be a good thing to include. A 4th ability would not be out of place, IMO, nor would replacing the increased DC thing. Up to you.

Mostly because you can already get both Shout feats by this level easily, but if you don't get them you really should for the theme. Although, on second thought, the fact that you'll probably take them anyway means I can probably just give them Freezing the Lifeblood to start with. I'll do that.
Yeah, that's kinda what I meant. I'm not even sure what Freezing the Lifeblood does, but it was really obvious that the correct way to do this was to have Kiai Shout and to get a free feat (Greater Kiai Shout) and a feat you couldn't have gotten at all otherwise (Freezing the Lifeblood that works with a Samurai).

Well, two of the three are more fear than bloodshed. The first one basically scares someone out of their wits and blinds/deafens them from the force of your shout; the bursting blood vessel fluff is there because...well, c'mon, you're blowing up people's eyes with your voice! :smallwink: The third one is definitely more direct-combat oriented, but it fits the samurai theme better than any of the other ideas I had.
Still a lot of bloodshed in Bloodcurdling Smite, though. You're rupturing their eyeballs or eardrums! Definitely not bloodless, even if it is fear-based.

You'll notice each class gets a 1-step increase in HD from these sub levels because of the blood = life-force theme and because the monk, shugenja, and ninja end up lowering their HP to use some abilities.
Do they? Yeah, that does make sense then.

:smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the additional critique.

EDIT: Whoops, looks like DW removed the critique I quoted. I'll leave this up here for now, so he can take my responses into consideration for his next post.
Yeah, it was incomplete so I cut and paste the whole thing to keep it in one place, not realizing you'd seen that bit. It's here now.

Desert Adepts - πd6
Desert Swordsage
First, I love the image. Kudos on that, it's awesome.

Second, the quote is also awesome, but "blasphemy Pelor's name" should be "blaspheme Pelor's name".

Third, the intro is awesome again. Seriously, kudos on the writing here, it's really solid.

Skills - Fitting and appropriate.

Dichotomy of Night and Day - A. Whoo, cool word choice. Am a fan (as anyone who checked out my Mage of Ice and Fire might have guessed).

Anyway, awesome, awesome, awesome. Very excited about this.

Arcane Focus - Oh, nice! Very fitting!

Force of the Tranquil Storm - Ultimately, I feel like this isn't a great trade unless you're focused almost exclusively on the arcane arts - but that's what makes this great, really, it's a tough decision to make. Very nice.

Stance of the Insatiable Wind - Whoa, awesome! I love this, kudos, this is excellent.

Arcane Disciplines
The rules here are well written, thought out, and very well done. I'm really impressed; I can't think of anything to nit-pick here. Very, very well done.

Arcane Sun - I feel like you should have some of the dessication-damage spells from Sandstorm here, but otherwise this looks excellent. Very exciting.

Blackened Moon - First thing I notice is Greater Invisibility as a 4th level Boost, when it's already a 2nd level Boost of Shadow Hand (Cloak of Deception). Other than that, it looks quite nice.

For the Sake of Requirements - Very well thought out, and I approve. The sheer variety of options this allows is awesome. I like it, a lot.

Metamagic - Interesting, I like it; I'd say it works. Makes sense and is well thought-out.

I only question why you go with this "swapping" thing - why not just allow them ... oh, cuz then there'd be no cost cuz they'd just ready everything as metamagic'd to the highest level possible. Kudos to you for thinking this through! Well done.

Conclusion
Oh man, I'd love to try this. This is really, really cool. You should definitely submit this to the Age of Warriors project after we're done.

Child Prodigy Substitution Levels - Felyndiira
A very interesting idea here. I'm excited to see how it plays out.

Child of the Books
Should be "would deny" instead of "would denied", and probably "only a cipher in hand" (to decipher is a verb; the noun that is the code would be a cipher). Anyway, grammatical nitpicks aside, an excellent intro: well-written and illustrative.

Requirements - I believe there might be rules for children's stats somewhere... a -1 to all ability scores, perhaps? Something like that. Anyway, this is fine otherwise.

Skills - Haha, I like it! Maybe add something minor in exchange, something playful? Perform, maybe, or Jump?

Child Wizard - Uh... brutal? I'm not sure about this one; I mean, OK, it's fitting, but it seems like it should be covered in separate rules for child characters?

Innocence - Uhhh... wouldn't you expect them to, I dunno, outgrow this? Those are pretty hefty penalties, and they get worse...

Rapid Memory - I dunno if "Rapid" is the right term, and I think there's already an ACF for this, but anyway... eh, I can see it. Sort of how a child can learn a new language much more easily than an adult can.

Lore - Pretty neat, and I like it thematically. A good choice.

Imagination (Familiar) - Well, it eliminates the XP bomb problem of familiars, but I'd now be tempted to make a battle-familiar (Improved Familiar, Imbue Familiar with Spell-like Ability, Fortify Familiar, etc) that is suddenly immune to all damage and can cast spells. This might be easily abused.

Imagination (Projection) - In general, this is a great, thematic, and fitting ability. But the char op'er in me is terrified of what this does to the Killer Gnome... Ah, whatever. Shadowcraft Mage is broken anyway; worrying about making it more broken is a little silly. Might not even work as an SLA, now that I think about it. This gets a thumbs up.

If they're a generalist, though, how do they lose a specialist spell slot?

Imagination (Flexibility) - Same issue as with the Projection, in that generalists don't have specialist spell slots, but this is also quite good; I like it.

Imagination (Imitation) - Having d20 + 10 + blah is a bad idea; the 10 in most formulas is to represent taking ten because having an opposed roll slows down the game too much. While an opposed roll might be appropriate here, the DC is just too high here; make it 1d20 + CL + Will save bonus (the bonus bit is important, too, otherwise this would mean a Will save, as in 1d20+Will, so you'd get the 1d20 in there twice).

Anyway, the rest of it looks fine; I like the feature. What do you mean by "Divine abilities" though? Salient Divine Abilities? Divine Spells? The SLAs of a denizen of an Outer Plane?

Also, typical problem with respect to generalists and specialist spell slots.

Conclusion
I really like it, in general, but I think there are a few issues. One, the penalties off the bat are really harsh, and I don't think they need to be; "Innocence", in particular, is extremely problematic for a number of reasons, mostly to do with the in ability to ever get Bluff as a class skill (just... not a good plan). You should sort out the issues with the generalists and the specialist spell slots; then again, specialists are generally just better, so maybe letting them get those for just the cost of the bonus feats would be fine.

Basically, the way it is now, no one would ever take the first substitution level unless they planned to abuse the invincible Familiar thing, which would be bad. Rapid Memory is good, but you can just take Eidetic Spellcaster to get the same thing without all the rather harsh penalties here. The rest of the levels are great though.

I hope this helps!

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-13, 08:15 PM

Ride the Crimson River - As the Blood Magus? Anyway, nifty feature. Maybe add a way to Flurry against the guy on the end? The names thing is cool, as is the thing with Mingle.

As I mentioned to...whoever last brought it up, the destination creature is flat-footed against the monk's attacks until the end of her next turn, so you're in a prime flurrying position already. I figured giving a flurry at the end of this would kind of be like shadow pounce, and teleportation+full attack was a bit too much of a power-up.

Very, very well done, I think.

Glad you like it! You input is highly valued, as always.

Did you have any comments on my comments on your comments (:smallbiggrin:) above, regarding an alternative to Con burn and a good balance point for the poison ability?

DragoonWraith

2010-07-13, 08:17 PM

But Shadow Pounce is awesome! I think it would be a good thing.

Anyway, yes, my responses to you have been swordsage'd into my previous post.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-13, 08:40 PM

But Shadow Pounce is awesome! I think it would be a good thing.

All right, then, Crimson Pounce it is.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-13, 08:44 PM

Whee! Awesome.

Felyndiira

2010-07-13, 08:54 PM

Thank you very much for the feedback, DW :smallsmile:.

Requirements - I believe there might be rules for children's stats somewhere... a -1 to all ability scores, perhaps? Something like that. Anyway, this is fine otherwise.
I've seen two versions of rules for child's stats. One of them is a straight loss of two dice for all attributes (so 2d6b1 instead of 4d6b3), which was so unfair that I don't know why that is ever written. The other one, the flat penalty to all ability scores, I feel is also crippling, since a child that's a good wizard shouldn't really be that disadvantaged in intelligence, for one; no one likes a penalty to their main stats.

The substitution levels are intended to be a replacement. Basically, the children specialize in one area, learning more rapidly than adults, and are penalized in another; that way, I don't have to penalize classes on their main casting or battle stats.

Skills - Haha, I like it! Maybe add something minor in exchange, something playful? Perform, maybe, or Jump?
Thanks =D. I considered perform and autohypnosis, although neither seems appropriate for a bookworm-type character. Since all knowledges and spellcraft are already class spells, I couldn't find anything else that would fit.

Child Wizard - Uh... brutal? I'm not sure about this one; I mean, OK, it's fitting, but it seems like it should be covered in separate rules for child characters?

Innocence - Uhhh... wouldn't you expect them to, I dunno, outgrow this? Those are pretty hefty penalties, and they get worse...
Yeah, I definitely overdid those two a little. I guarantee that they won't be nearly as severe in the fighter and rogue subs, although I always feel cautious whenever I add more powers to the wizard's repertoire. The intention was to force characters to take the penalties before they can take the other sub levels (the entry rules has an addendum for this), so I won't be adding even more power to the already top-tier wizard.

I'll probably tone those down a little; maybe just -2 con and str instead of all stats but int. I guess I'm just paranoid about the wizard's power (can't wait until I get to cleric, in that case =p).

EDIT: Figured it out. I put the stat bonuses and penalties into variant rules (child wizard), which is automatically applied for an under-aged character taking her first wizard level and is now one of the requirements for the sub levels. The penalties are reduced to +2 INT, -2 STR, -2 CON, and -2 Sense Motive. The additions makes the first level in the class very good, with lore replacing scribe scroll and the no spellbook ACF for free =p. It also makes child wizards a bit more attractive, since +2 int is very fair for -2 con and -2 sense motive.

Imagination (Familiar) - Well, it eliminates the XP bomb problem of familiars, but I'd now be tempted to make a battle-familiar (Improved Familiar, Imbue Familiar with Spell-like Ability, Fortify Familiar, etc) that is suddenly immune to all damage and can cast spells. This might be easily abused.
Eep. I always disregarded my familiar as a wizard (traded it away for ACFs whenever I could =p), so I never actually thought about ways to overpower the familiar. I should probably make the wisp attackable and just have it regenerate automatically after an encounter instead to prevent that kind of abuse, and add a clause to get rid of the XP bomb.

EDIT: I eliminated this ability altogether. Also renamed rapid memory to imagination (memory) since I need at least one imagination for every level =p.

Imagination (Projection) - In general, this is a great, thematic, and fitting ability. But the char op'er in me is terrified of what this does to the Killer Gnome... Ah, whatever. Shadowcraft Mage is broken anyway; worrying about making it more broken is a little silly. Might not even work as an SLA, now that I think about it. This gets a thumbs up.

If they're a generalist, though, how do they lose a specialist spell slot?

Imagination (Flexibility) - Same issue as with the Projection, in that generalists don't have specialist spell slots, but this is also quite good; I like it.
I'm an idiot XD. I actually warded Imagination (Flexibility) so that it works for generalist wizards, and forgot all about that for the specialists. I guess I'll add a clause that forces a generalist to discard a spell slot of the appropriate level, as well (it's harsher than specialist wizards, but no penalties is a bit unbalanced as well).

I had considered Shadowcraft Mage as well, although I figured that for a class that calls 140% miracles from low-level slots, giving them an unlimited power source won't really do much worse than what they already broke =p.

DIT: Fixed the problem. Wizards can now choose between generalist and specialist slots when obtaining their level 5 and 10 abilities, so generalist wizzies give up a general spell slot and specialists give up either (preferably a specialist slot). The level 10 ability is also more powerful for generalist wizards, so it balances out in a weird way =p.

Imagination (Imitation) - Having d20 + 10 + blah is a bad idea; the 10 in most formulas is to represent taking ten because having an opposed roll slows down the game too much. While an opposed roll might be appropriate here, the DC is just too high here; make it 1d20 + CL + Will save bonus (the bonus bit is important, too, otherwise this would mean a Will save, as in 1d20+Will, so you'd get the 1d20 in there twice).

Anyway, the rest of it looks fine; I like the feature. What do you mean by "Divine abilities" though? Salient Divine Abilities? Divine Spells? The SLAs of a denizen of an Outer Plane?

Also, typical problem with respect to generalists and specialist spell slots.
The ability was a bit frightening to me, since I was afraid of abuse on the level of polymorphs. The will save bonus was a wording error on my part, although the high DC overall was so that a PC can't easily steal divine abilities from a solar at low levels and go to town or something to that effect. Divine abilities was supposed to be Salient Divine Abilities; I completely misworded that =p.

I guess I'm just too frightened of wizards and tier 1 characters, though. I could probably lessen some of the penalties a bit, and still have it be relatively viable (since I can't really out-cheese some of the wiz stuff out there =p).

EDIT: I fixed the wording. It's now 10 + CL + Will Save Bonus + 1d20. I do think it's fair since spellcraft/knowledge check bonuses aren't difficult for a wizard, whereas CL and Will Saves are considerably harder to increase. Also, this ability no longer nukes an eighth level slot, since the difference between generalist and specialist slots is too big at that level. It just flat-out replaces the level 15 bonus feat with nothing else added.

Thanks again for the help ^^. I'll update the wizard sub class as soon as my fighter child sub is done (who will not be penalized much thanks to being a tier 5 class).

EDIT: Thanks again for the help =D. I've updated my post with the new version of the child wizard ^^.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-07-13, 09:13 PM

Okay, I've changed the Bloodseeking Poison ability to Poison in the Blood (the ninja can make poison from his blood now!), changed the fluff of the samurai from the Bloodless Daisho ("I don't want to fight, so I'll scare you away") to the Bloodstained Daisho ("I walk a precarious path between honor and dishonor because I love being unnecessarily violent in combat"), and updated Ride the Crimson River to give you a free flurry.

PId6

2010-07-13, 10:50 PM

First, I love the image. Kudos on that, it's awesome.
Thanks! I actually found that one in the Player's Guide to Faerun image gallery while looking for something that works for the warblade. Apparently, images of fantasy archers that don't involve woodland terrain are incredibly rare.

Second, the quote is also awesome, but "blasphemy Pelor's name" should be "blaspheme Pelor's name".
Ah, thanks. Fixed. Can't say I ever had to use that word in verb form before.

Third, the intro is awesome again. Seriously, kudos on the writing here, it's really solid.
Thank you, again. Glad you like it.

Force of the Tranquil Storm - Ultimately, I feel like this isn't a great trade unless you're focused almost exclusively on the arcane arts - but that's what makes this great, really, it's a tough decision to make. Very nice.
I agree. If a swordsage is just taking a few maneuvers from an arcane discipline and has most of his maneuvers from outside that, then he likely won't need to make the switch since he can deal with high-SR enemies using regular maneuvers. However, an arcane-focused swordsage needs the boost against SR, since he doesn't have options that typical spellcasters have, such as Assay Spell Resistance or True Casting.

Note that I tried to word both these abilities so that you don't actually need to take the 1st sub level to benefit. This will work even on spells you gain from other spellcasting classes. The number of spellcasters with four levels of swordsage is admittedly low, but it is an option.

Stance of the Insatiable Wind - Whoa, awesome! I love this, kudos, this is excellent.
Yeah, this was one ability I really wish the default swordsage had. Desert Wind just isn't as strong as the other disciplines without something to negate fire resistance. This also works even without taking the 1st sub level, so you can apply it on regular Desert Wind swordsage as well.

Arcane Disciplines
The rules here are well written, thought out, and very well done. I'm really impressed; I can't think of anything to nit-pick here. Very, very well done.
Very happy that they work for you. This ended up far longer than I originally intended, so I wasn't sure if it was completely comprehensible to others. Glad my fears were unfounded.

Blackened Moon - First thing I notice is Greater Invisibility as a 4th level Boost, when it's already a 2nd level Boost of Shadow Hand (Cloak of Deception).
The difference is that these boosts last until the beginning of your next turn, so you're gaining the invisibility defensively as well as offensively (unlike Cloak of Deception, which only lasts until the end of your turn). I felt like the 50% miss chance for 1 round warrants a two-level increase, especially as you can Extend it.

For the Sake of Requirements - Very well thought out, and I approve. The sheer variety of options this allows is awesome. I like it, a lot.
Thanks. There's probably some abuse possible in there, but I felt that the sheer breadth of options was worth it. Allowing for more interesting builds is more important than disallowing exploits, especially when the core rules already have so many possible exploits if you're out to do that.

Metamagic - Interesting, I like it; I'd say it works. Makes sense and is well thought-out.
I was really looking for ways to distinguish arcane maneuvers from "just another ToB discipline," and make them really feel like spells. Somatic/verbal components and spell resistance helped with that, but allowing metamagic probably cinched the difference there. I do hope these rules made metamagic useful without being OMG AWESOME.

Also added few more metamagic options from Sandstorm/Frostburn and BoED/VD.

I only question why you go with this "swapping" thing - why not just allow them ... oh, cuz then there'd be no cost cuz they'd just ready everything as metamagic'd to the highest level possible. Kudos to you for thinking this through! Well done.
Yeah, exactly. The swapping mechanic was a workaround so that there's actually some cost to the process. I couldn't find a more elegant way to do it without doubling the word count or underpowering it too much (my first idea was to make you choose "Empowered Burning Hands" in place of a maneuver known when you level up; yeah, bad idea).

Conclusion
Oh man, I'd love to try this. This is really, really cool. You should definitely submit this to the Age of Warriors project after we're done.
Thank you a lot for the critique. Always appreciated! I'll make sure to submit it to AoW after the contest.

DragoonWraith

2010-07-13, 11:22 PM

Heh, not much for me to respond to; I had very few criticisms to begin with, after all. The one thing is this:

The difference is that these boosts last until the beginning of your next turn, so you're gaining the invisibility defensively as well as offensively (unlike Cloak of Deception, which only lasts until the end of your turn). I felt like the 50% miss chance for 1 round warrants a two-level increase, especially as you can Extend it.
I hadn't realized that about Cloak of Deception (and it certainly explains why my Swordmage with Martial Study in it was doing so well), but I disagree that this is worth two levels. One, maybe, though honestly I think I'd prefer Cloak of Deception over Greater Invisibility as you have it.

Even with Extension, it's two rounds. You're not getting far on that, and at best you have +2d6 Sneak Attack anyway without multiclassing.

PId6

2010-07-14, 12:52 AM

I hadn't realized that about Cloak of Deception (and it certainly explains why my Swordmage with Martial Study in it was doing so well), but I disagree that this is worth two levels. One, maybe, though honestly I think I'd prefer Cloak of Deception over Greater Invisibility as you have it.
Okay, I lowered Greater Invisibility, Greater Blink, and Superior Invisibility all by one level, and added Dragon Breath as a replacement 6th. 50% miss chance is pretty powerful, but I guess you're right that it's not worth 2 levels.

Okay, I've changed the Bloodseeking Poison ability to Poison in the Blood (the ninja can make poison from his blood now!), changed the fluff of the samurai from the Bloodless Daisho ("I don't want to fight, so I'll scare you away") to the Bloodstained Daisho ("I walk a precarious path between honor and dishonor because I love being unnecessarily violent in combat"), and updated Ride the Crimson River to give you a free flurry.
Looks good! I especially like the samurai's new fluff. Nothing much to complain about here.

DaTedinator

2010-07-15, 11:56 PM

Fantastic entries, everyone! The contest is now closed to new entries, and the voting thread is up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8933208#post8933208)! Give us your vote!

Entrants, go ahead and PM me your votes for the Wish I'd Thought of That! category. I'll PM anyone who hasn't PMed me in a few days.

DaTedinator

2010-07-30, 12:01 AM

And the voting is over! Congratulations PId6, PairO'Dice Lost, and especially Glimbur, who took the Wish I'd Thought of That category by a landslide!

I must say, though, everyone, I was really impressed by what I saw. Pretty much all of the entries were very creative and well done; solid effort was given, and it showed.

I'll get the next contest up tomorrow.

And by the by, while it's a little late for suggestions for this upcoming contest, in the future, feel free to submit ideas for contests. I may not use them immediately or exactly, but when the idea is for each contest to have a completely different subject matter in addition to theme, any help is fantastic. :smallcool:

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-30, 12:56 AM

I'd like to see something Warforged-themed in the future. That or probably feats, as I imagine feats would be something easy to make. Or both.

Stompy

2010-07-30, 10:59 AM

Best new race

Best 1-shot module :smallamused:

I'm fine with the feats but making a feat usually takes like 5 minutes. Would we be making, like, 10 of them at a time and getting them to connect?

Glimbur

2010-07-30, 11:06 AM

Soulmelds! Maneuvers! Invocations! Vestiges! Utterances (just kidding)!

It would be really fiddly and weird to have us invent a new combat maneuver, like disarm or trip, and feats for it. Could be interesting though.

zagan

2010-07-30, 11:45 AM

New race could be interesting, new parangon class could be awesome too.

Hyooz

2010-07-30, 04:48 PM

A general ToM theme would be cool. Develop new soulmelds/mysteries/utterances.

DaTedinator

2010-07-30, 11:42 PM

Ooh, all good ideas. I especially like the one-shot idea... that'd be a lot of work, but if enough people entered, it could be pretty awesome. Continue to feel free to submit contest ideas, all of you!

Also, new contest is up! This month: Spells! Specifically, named spells. Enjoy!

Hyooz

2010-07-30, 11:52 PM

This isn't necessarily portentous, but would it be ok to base our fictional wizard on a pre-existing character? Say, describe him very broadly and use the spells to hint at the 'true' identity?

DaTedinator

2010-07-31, 07:35 AM

Well, you need to include the spellcaster's name in the spells, but if you can do that while still making it vague, go for it!

zagan

2010-07-31, 08:49 AM

Good idea for the contest, I think I have an idea we'll see how it pan

EDIT: While the contest is about spellbook could the spell be divine or would that go against the spirit of it ?

Hyooz

2010-07-31, 10:58 AM

Not to step on the toes of the Sanguine Disciples, but I'll get the ball rolling with my first of several in a line of necromantic spells.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-07-31, 03:58 PM

Themes by books would be interesting. Templates also seem to be relatively untouched by the monster contest, too, so that's another option.

zagan

2010-08-01, 12:29 PM

And my subsition is post, I present you Kuthar martial spell. I might add more later if I'm inspired.
When I have the time I will try to peach the work of the other.

FlamingKobold

2010-08-01, 01:03 PM

THese look really good so far. By the way, Zaydos, you may want to change "preemptive" to "preeminent" in the first line of the flavor text.

Zaydos

2010-08-01, 01:24 PM

Thanks. Now I just have to wonder how I made that mistake in the first place.

zagan

2010-08-01, 04:29 PM

I've add one more spell to my spellbook.

DaTedinator

2010-08-01, 06:08 PM

Looking good, everybody, and so quickly! Keep it up!

EDIT: While the contest is about spellbook could the spell be divine or would that go against the spirit of it ?

Sorry for taking too long to answer for you to benefit from it, but yes, that is allowed. Technically, you could even do spells of different types, though it would be tough to really make that work.

Glimbur

2010-08-01, 06:38 PM

I found myself PEACH'ing zagan's work, so here it is.

Martial Enhancer seems not good enough to be third level. The duration really hurts it, if you made it 10 min/level so it doesn't have to be cast in combat we could talk about making it third level.
Martial Support is ok at 4th due to hour/level

Martial Extension has scary synergy. It's reasonable at the level it is at.

Martial Projection is snazzy but I would put it lower than 4th, Blood Wind is first level after all. Maybe make it second due to the free action activation.

Martial Preparation is too high level too, I'd move it down to fourth just because recovering all of your maneuvers as a swift action is nice.

DragoonWraith

2010-08-01, 07:25 PM

While the contest is about spellbook could the spell be divine or would that go against the spirit of it ?
Archivists use a Prayerbook that's pretty much identical to a Spellbook anyway.

zagan

2010-08-02, 06:00 AM

Looking good, everybody, and so quickly! Keep it up!

Sorry for taking too long to answer for you to benefit from it, but yes, that is allowed. Technically, you could even do spells of different types, though it would be tough to really make that work.

No problem my first idea didn't pan out anyway.

I found myself PEACH'ing zagan's work, so here it is.

Thanks.

Martial Enhancer seems not good enough to be third level. The duration really hurts it, if you made it 10 min/level so it doesn't have to be cast in combat we could talk about making it third level.

I'll do that then, I don't want it to be too low level.

Martial Support is ok at 4th due to hour/level

Ok.

Martial Extension has scary synergy. It's reasonable at the level it is at.

Thanks.

Martial Projection is snazzy but I would put it lower than 4th, Blood Wind is first level after all. Maybe make it second due to the free action activation.

Yeah, probably, I'll look into it.

Martial Preparation is too high level too, I'd move it down to fourth just because recovering all of your maneuvers as a swift action is nice.

I didn't want it to be too low, but you're right fourth level is probably enough.

Thanks again for the Peach.

Archivists use a Prayerbook that's pretty much identical to a Spellbook anyway.

True. Finnaly I didn't go divine so the point is moot.

EDIT: I've changed my spell as recommand by Glimbur.

zagan

2010-08-02, 10:48 AM

Okay, as promise Peach for the other:

JACEN MAKSIM'S SPELLBOOK

Fluff: Very nice I like it.

Blood component:While we've recently seen a similar idea in homebrew and it also exist in official material It's still a good concept. I don't see anyway to abuse the rule as such.

Maksim's Lesser Invigoration: Does it also work on construct/ooze ? It's fine otherwise.

Maksim's Lesser Communion: Your missing saving throw and SR line, useless for this spell but it should be there. The wording is also a little lacking something like "You can use the bardic knowdlege ability of bard but use your caster level as your bard level for this purpose" Or something like that.

Maksim's Vicious Upwelling: No SR line either and for this one it matter. Does it work on creature without blood, I guess not but it need to be clear. Otherwise it's fine.

Maksim's Revivification: Very nice and could be a life saver.

Conclusions: Good work and very nice idea, I was expecting the spell to be more blood oriented however. The bardic knowledge one seem out of place here for example but that might be just me.

Zantar the Green Clad's Spellbook:

Fluff: Interesting but a little long for my taste.

Zantar’s Singing Flower: Flavorfull spell. Why a swift action seeing the effect I don't see why.

Zantar’s Lightning Net: A few thing first a small niptick, generraly it's better to spell the word completely such as attack roll instead of just Atk, Armor class instead of AC, reflex save instead of reflex.
Second what do you mean a move action can be use to end these effect ?
Finally as written the damage is untyped while it should probably be electricity.

Zantar’s Thunderous Claws: You don't need special rule to make multiple touch attack as part of a spell. See here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Range_(Spell_Descriptor)) for the rule. Again the damage is untyped. "dealing 1d4" isn't great it should be 1d4 point of (electricity) damage.
I don't understand the last part at all you can make a normal claws, slam or unarmed strike as part of the casting and deliver the spell in adition to the normal damage ? it's really confusing.

Zantar’s Rune Blade: Maximum +10 at level 36 ??? I've never seen a spell explaining it's effect that far into epic they generally cap at 20 or 25. The enhancement bonus is +1 to attack and +1/4 level to damage ? That's weird enhancement bonus apply to attack and damage most of the time.
For the secondary effect you need to change the duration to "10 minutes/level or until expanded"
It also seem a little weak for a 5 level spell but I'm not sure.

Zantar’s Rune Claws: Mostly the same as the previous one and same remark.

Zantar’s Eldritch Augmentation: Nice idea. First the warlock isn't the only one to use invocation, dragonfire adept also use them but they don't have an eldtrich blast how does it affect them ? Seem fine otherwise.

Zantar’s Sphere of Electric Devastation: Okay basic blasting spell but strickly stronger than polar ray (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Polar_Ray) of the same level but it affect an area, you don't need the touch attack and the range is greater.

Zantar’s Soul of the Storm: This one I really like and seem balanced.

Zantar’s Wall of Thunder: What do you mean near the wall for the listen penality ? Within 10-20ft ?
Apart from that it seem good to me.

Conclusions: Not bad, it need some polish but seem good otherwise. The only thing that really bothered me is the lack of unifying theme generally found with spell name after a spelcaster. There's the story and electricity in some of them but that's all but that's just my personal opinion. Good work.

Hyooz

2010-08-02, 12:20 PM

JACEN MAKSIM'S SPELLBOOK
Fluff: Very nice I like it.

I'll probably do some tweaking now that I have a fuller idea of this guy, but thanks a lot.

Blood component:While we've recently seen a similar idea in homebrew and it also exist in official material It's still a good concept. I don't see anyway to abuse the rule as such.

Yeah, I kinda felt bad using the blood stuff right after the Sanguine sub levels showed up, but this particular form of necromancy is something I've liked for a long time, and finally had a chance to make some spell spells for it.

Maksim's Lesser Invigoration: Does it also work on construct/ooze ? It's fine otherwise.

I'll make a note of it. Good catch.

Maksim's Lesser Communion: Your missing saving throw and SR line, useless for this spell but it should be there. The wording is also a little lacking something like "You can use the bardic knowdlege ability of bard but use your caster level as your bard level for this purpose" Or something like that.

I left those out because similar spells in the PHB left them out. See Commune with Nature, Contact other Plane and the like. I'll play with the wording and see what works.

Maksim's Vicious Upwelling: No SR line either and for this one it matter. Does it work on creature without blood, I guess not but it need to be clear. Otherwise it's fine.

Ah, I did miss SR there. Drat.

Maksim's Revivification: Very nice and could be a life saver.

The normal spell is already really handy. A little extra leeway is awesome.

Conclusions: Good work and very nice idea, I was expecting the spell to be more blood oriented however. The bardic knowledge one seem out of place here for example but that might be just me.

I'm trying to keep these spells from being... 'themed' I guess, and more spells this guy would come up with. As a specialized necromancer turned away from the undead, I wondered what kinds of things he might come up with so he could still use his talents without delving into the... squickier parts of necromancy. Maksim's Communion, for example, draws on the latent dead spirits of the area to gain knowledge. It felt thematic for him, and the blood component ends up being a sort of 'life' sacrifice to pay respects to those he seeks knowledge from.

I'll clear that up more in the flavor as I go back to work on fleshing him out once I get his spells done.

DaTedinator

2010-08-02, 02:14 PM

The only thing that really bothered me is the lack of unifying theme generally found with spell name after a spelcaster. There's the story and electricity in some of them but that's all but that's just my personal opinion. Good work.

I'm trying to keep these spells from being... 'themed' I guess, and more spells this guy would come up with.

Hyooz has the right idea, Zagan. If you look at the named spells in the PHB, for some of them the only unifying factor is the name. Look at, for example, Tenser's Floating Disc and Tenser's Transformation: completely different spells, but clearly springing from the same general character; it's a guy who wants to be less reliant on having a pack mule/meatshield.

The idea of the contest is less to have a set of themed spells, and more to have a set of spells that reveal the character of the mage who created them.

zagan

2010-08-02, 03:34 PM

Hyooz has the right idea, Zagan. If you look at the named spells in the PHB, for some of them the only unifying factor is the name. Look at, for example, Tenser's Floating Disc and Tenser's Transformation: completely different spells, but clearly springing from the same general character; it's a guy who wants to be less reliant on having a pack mule/meatshield.

The idea of the contest is less to have a set of themed spells, and more to have a set of spells that reveal the character of the mage who created them.

Ha, I didn't remember that, I was thinking of Bigby line of spell, that create hand of force for various thing. But you're right I appologize.

DaTedinator

2010-08-02, 03:53 PM

Ha, I didn't remember that, I was thinking of Bigby line of spell, that create hand of force for various thing. But you're right I appologize.

No apologies necessary!

Zaydos

2010-08-02, 07:35 PM

Okay, as promise Peach for the other:
Zantar the Green Clad's Spellbook:

Thanks a lot, you really helped :smallsmile:

Fluff: Interesting but a little long for my taste.

He was a :smallredface: DMPC :smallredface: in a long running campaign I ran; it was supposed to become round-robin DMing after a few sessions and never did. The fluff is actually pretty much me summarizing a 2 year campaign.

Zantar’s Singing Flower: Flavorfull spell. Why a swift action seeing the effect I don't see why.

That was because I copy-pasted the format from another homebrewed spell of mine and didn't bother to change it. Changed, because it might actually get abused if it was left a swift action.

Zantar’s Lightning Net: A few thing first a small niptick, generraly it's better to spell the word completely such as attack roll instead of just Atk, Armor class instead of AC, reflex save instead of reflex.
Second what do you mean a move action can be use to end these effect ?
Finally as written the damage is untyped while it should probably be electricity.

Fixed the editing mistake, and rephrased the move action part. In short the targets can use a move action to stop the extra damage and the penalties.

Zantar’s Thunderous Claws: You don't need special rule to make multiple touch attack as part of a spell. See here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Range_(Spell_Descriptor)) for the rule. Again the damage is untyped. "dealing 1d4" isn't great it should be 1d4 point of (electricity) damage.
I don't understand the last part at all you can make a normal claws, slam or unarmed strike as part of the casting and deliver the spell in adition to the normal damage ? it's really confusing.

I took out the last part, but kept in the note about the full attack since by RAW you can only touch as many willing targets as you want while casting.

Zantar’s Rune Blade: Maximum +10 at level 36 ??? I've never seen a spell explaining it's effect that far into epic they generally cap at 20 or 25. The enhancement bonus is +1 to attack and +1/4 level to damage ? That's weird enhancement bonus apply to attack and damage most of the time.
For the secondary effect you need to change the duration to "10 minutes/level or until expanded"
It also seem a little weak for a 5 level spell but I'm not sure.

Zantar’s Rune Claws: Mostly the same as the previous one and same remark.

Mostly because 10 is a nice round number, and it ought to have a noticeably better cap than Greater Magic Weapon. Also the Cure Spells go fairly high into epic (I believe Mass Cure Critical Wounds is 4d8+caster level with a max of +40). The omission? I blame sleep deprivation for the attack/damage discrepancy and sheer stupidity for the duration.

Zantar’s Eldritch Augmentation: Nice idea. First the warlock isn't the only one to use invocation, dragonfire adept also use them but they don't have an eldtrich blast how does it affect them ? Seem fine otherwise.

I considered making it increase dragonfire adept breath weapon damage, but decided for fluff reasons not too.

Zantar’s Sphere of Electric Devastation: Okay basic blasting spell but strickly stronger than polar ray (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/SRD:Polar_Ray) of the same level but it affect an area, you don't need the touch attack and the range is greater.

I originally put it at 9th, but I compared it to Ice Berg (Frostburn) which deals 20d6 in a 20-ft radius (no save) as well as burying the creatures, and then can affect further away creatures out to 60-ft. Also I stopped using Polar Ray as a balance point when I realized it was strictly inferior to Maximized Orb of Cold without metamagic reducers.

Zantar’s Soul of the Storm: This one I really like and seem balanced.

Zantar’s Wall of Thunder: What do you mean near the wall for the listen penality ? Within 10-20ft ?
Apart from that it seem good to me.

Yes it was supposed to be 20-ft, that's what I get for making spells at 5 AM and not reading over them before posting.

Conclusions: Not bad, it need some polish but seem good otherwise. The only thing that really bothered me is the lack of unifying theme generally found with spell name after a spelcaster. There's the story and electricity in some of them but that's all but that's just my personal opinion. Good work.

Thanks for the work, I feel like I should get around to doing the same for the other contestants; not sure how useful I'll be.

zagan

2010-08-03, 08:48 AM

I left those out because similar spells in the PHB left them out. See Commune with Nature, Contact other Plane and the like. I'll play with the wording and see what works.

Didn't remember that.

The normal spell is already really handy. A little extra leeway is awesome.

Yes.

I'm trying to keep these spells from being... 'themed' I guess, and more spells this guy would come up with. As a specialized necromancer turned away from the undead, I wondered what kinds of things he might come up with so he could still use his talents without delving into the... squickier parts of necromancy. Maksim's Communion, for example, draws on the latent dead spirits of the area to gain knowledge. It felt thematic for him, and the blood component ends up being a sort of 'life' sacrifice to pay respects to those he seeks knowledge from.

I'll clear that up more in the flavor as I go back to work on fleshing him out once I get his spells done.

Good.

Thanks a lot, you really helped :smallsmile:

My pleasure.

He was a :smallredface: DMPC :smallredface: in a long running campaign I ran; it was supposed to become round-robin DMing after a few sessions and never did. The fluff is actually pretty much me summarizing a 2 year campaign.

A nice idea.

That was because I copy-pasted the format from another homebrewed spell of mine and didn't bother to change it. Changed, because it might actually get abused if it was left a swift action.

I don't see how but standard action for cantrip is probably better.

Fixed the editing mistake, and rephrased the move action part. In short the targets can use a move action to stop the extra damage and the penalties.

Okay, that's clearer.

I took out the last part, but kept in the note about the full attack since by RAW you can only touch as many willing targets as you want while casting.

Ah you'r right it's only willing target. You still need to precise the type of damage is any.

Mostly because 10 is a nice round number, and it ought to have a noticeably better cap than Greater Magic Weapon. Also the Cure Spells go fairly high into epic (I believe Mass Cure Critical Wounds is 4d8+caster level with a max of +40). The omission? I blame sleep deprivation for the attack/damage discrepancy and sheer stupidity for the duration.

It happen don't worry about it, it seem fine now.

I considered making it increase dragonfire adept breath weapon damage, but decided for fluff reasons not too.

That mean you need to stat what happen if the target doesn't have any eldritch blast.

I originally put it at 9th, but I compared it to Ice Berg (Frostburn) which deals 20d6 in a 20-ft radius (no save) as well as burying the creatures, and then can affect further away creatures out to 60-ft. Also I stopped using Polar Ray as a balance point when I realized it was strictly inferior to Maximized Orb of Cold without metamagic reducers.

Ha, you're right I didn't realize that polar ray was that bad of a comparaison.

Yes it was supposed to be 20-ft, that's what I get for making spells at 5 AM and not reading over them before posting.

Okay.

Thanks for the work, I feel like I should get around to doing the same for the other contestants; not sure how useful I'll be.

My pleasure. And if you have time peaching for the other always help you could catch grammar error, omission or think of an abusing to use the spell.

EDIT: I've add another spell to my speelbook, Kuthar’s Martial Linking I hope you link. I would like an opinion on the level I'm not sure about that i don't want it to be too low but 5 might be too high.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-03, 02:39 PM

I'll throw down a quick PEACH for you zagan. I remember checking out the spells earlier and being generally pleased. You've kind of inspired me for this contest, too. Hopefully I'll have my own stuff up in the next day or so.

Martial Enhancer ist nice. The level is spot on, as is the duration. Unfortunately, the number of maneuvers that actually increase in power with IL is rather limited, but you're a wizard: you can just "cheat" that away by dumping Heroics next turn to grab a higher level maneuver. Another thing to consider is listing if it increases IL for all disciplines/classes or not. RAW, your example would also gain a boost from 3 to 5 for Warblade/Crusader IL.

Martial Support still feels a little high to me for a fourth level spell, due to how maneuvers refresh after combat. It could lead into White Raven Tactics abuse by gaining three turns in a row, but other than that it seems underwhelming.

Martial Extension looks fine. I'd almost consider letting its benefit apply for the entire time the spell is up, as I can't think of any terribly powerful boosts.

Same thing goes for Martial Projection as it does for Extension. This may just be me, but I generally don't like most duration spells that pop off for an effect without at least having something minor while it's up.

Martial Preparation is nice, but the wording can use some work. You should add that when you use the spell, you refresh either just one maneuver in addition to the changed maneuver or not. Or if the refreshed one has to be the changed one or what have you. As to the intended effect, I like it.

Love Martial Linking! Fifth level may be a little too high, but I still love it. This is one of those spells that I just want to persist for the day so I can have my cake and eat it, too.

zagan

2010-08-03, 04:06 PM

I'll throw down a quick PEACH for you zagan. I remember checking out the spells earlier and being generally pleased. You've kind of inspired me for this contest, too. Hopefully I'll have my own stuff up in the next day or so.

Thanks and I'm glad that i've inspired you I hope to see your stuff soon.

Martial Enhancer ist nice. The level is spot on, as is the duration. Unfortunately, the number of maneuvers that actually increase in power with IL is rather limited, but you're a wizard: you can just "cheat" that away by dumping Heroics next turn to grab a higher level maneuver. Another thing to consider is listing if it increases IL for all disciplines/classes or not. RAW, your example would also gain a boost from 3 to 5 for Warblade/Crusader IL.

Well yeah it boost all IL as normal but i'll change the example so it's clear just in case.

Martial Support still feels a little high to me for a fourth level spell, due to how maneuvers refresh after combat. It could lead into White Raven Tactics abuse by gaining three turns in a row, but other than that it seems underwhelming.

Perhaps, it's hard to judge the level i've got nearly nothing to compare. i'll think about it.

Martial Extension looks fine. I'd almost consider letting its benefit apply for the entire time the spell is up, as I can't think of any terribly powerful boosts.

I've just realise that i need to change the wording because some boost have a duration of "end of turn" instead of 1 round and other are instantaneous.
As for applying it for the entire duration i'm not sure perhaps a small bonus (?) and you can end the spell the gain the real benefit.

Same thing goes for Martial Projection as it does for Extension. This may just be me, but I generally don't like most duration spells that pop off for an effect without at least having something minor while it's

Yeah, this one too.

Martial Preparation is nice, but the wording can use some work. You should add that when you use the spell, you refresh either just one maneuver in addition to the changed maneuver or not. Or if the refreshed one has to be the changed one or what have you. As to the intended effect, I like it.

I've use the same wording as adaptive style. You can rereadied as many maneuver as you normally could and you can chose to not ready the same one.

Love Martial Linking! Fifth level may be a little too high, but I still love it. This is one of those spells that I just want to persist for the day so I can have my cake and eat it, too.

If you like it so much I might keep it at this level just for the reason you give.

Thanks again for the peach I will work on them and if I'm inspired I might add more. I'm also working on something else ToB relate that I will post soon, if you like the spell you will probably like that too.

EDIT: Changed a few thing as suggested,
- Give a more complete example for martial enhancer
- Martial support granted one more readied maneuver for the duration of the spell in addition of his previous effect, I'm affraid it might be too strong for it's level now however.
- Martial extension now granted a bonus on skill check made as part of a maneuver and the wording is corrected to deal with boost with unusual duration.
- Martial preparation give a bonus on save against maneuver in addition to previous effect
- no change to martial preparation because i can't see how to make the wording clearer.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-03, 05:03 PM

Thanks and I'm glad that i've inspired you I hope to see your stuff soon.

I'm hoping to get some fluff and a few spells up soon. The problem with this contest is I have three separate ideas rolling, but the one you spawned gave me more than the other two for spell ideas.

Well yeah it boost all IL as normal but i'll change the example so it's clear just in case.

Sounds good. I figured it would just be best to be explicit about that sort of thing.

Perhaps, it's hard to judge the level i've got nearly nothing to compare. i'll think about it.

Honestly, for some of the stuff, I'm not certain if a lower level spell would be better for it or not. My guy reaction is to say, as is, they should be lower, but I think the better approach would be to throw something extra onto the hour/level stuffs so you have a reason for it to be up rather than just a one time pop.

The Heart of X spell line is a good example of this. Individually, the static benefits are underwhelming. Together, they net you Light/Heavy Fortification, but all of them sit around on a trigger for things like Stoneskin or Freedom of Movement. Your stuff has the Freedom of Movement, but not the rest. Something to consider.

I've just realise that i need to change the wording because some boost have a duration of "end of turn" instead of 1 round and other are instantaneous.
As for applying it for the entire duration i'm not sure perhaps a small bonus (?) and you can end the spell the gain the real benefit.

A small bonus would probably be better, as I mentioned above.

I've use the same wording as adaptive style. You can rereadied as many maneuver as you normally could and you can chose to not ready the same one.

Huh, so you did. My bad. I hate it when I have mistakes like this in my PEACHes.:smallredface:

If you like it so much I might keep it at this level just for the reason you give.

Honestly, that's probably the right thing to do. I'd either have to work at it to get to persist it or I could just blow 6th level slots on Extended Kuthar’s Martial Linking, which is also fine with me.

Thanks again for the peach I will work on them and if I'm inspired I might add more. I'm also working on something else ToB relate that I will post soon, if you like the spell you will probably like that too.

I look forward to seeing it. I know your work has caught my eye in the past, so I'll probably swing by that project and throw down a PEACH there, too.

And while I'm at it, I'll PEACH BIBBULUH'S SPELLBOOK, too!

The opening fluff is a little light, but that's something that can easily be added later.

For Bibbuluh's Iron Guts, the focus is generally put at the bottom of the spell description. Also, as the spell is Range: Personal, having a line for SR is meaningless as caster always automatically overcome their own SR. The wording needs work. You should mention if the bonus increases at CL 5 or CL 6, as the "increases every 5th caster level" bit could be interpreted either way. The second "and" in the second sentence should be replaced by a comma. You should probably list the positive effects of alcohol, as I have no idea what they may be. Even a simple blurb referring to a list of booze in something like Arms and Equipment will do. The last part of the last sentence also needs work, as I've got no idea as to what it means: does poison stop working on me? Do I benefit from random poisons somehow? Etc.

For Memory Aid, see my line about the focus on Iron Guts for the material component. You have an extra "record" in the first sentence that doesn't need to be there. For the retention of the information, it should probably read "Once the object is done recording, it will continue to retain the information up to another 30 minutes per caster level." You also need to say how it absorbs the memories. Is it standard sight, sound, smell? Or does the object record information with the benefits of Darkvision and Blindsight? You should probably list what the DC for the Will Save is, as some spells will give a non-standard formula. Also, you should mention what success and failure do to the creature attempting to absorb the memories from the object.

For the Rosy Haze, you should probably allow a saving throw as it could be used offensively to stack mischances. Your "additional" is missing its "l." You should also list in full the increased bonuses at 14th level (i.e., "+4 morale to Strength and Charisma..."). Other than that, looks fine.

For the Cold Shower, you should replace "It" with "The spell" or something similar. The save should be "Fortitude partial; see text" and probably have some blurb on it to prevent Mettle from stopping the beneficiary parts of the spell on a successful save. Otherwise, I like it.

For the Fire Water, you should mention what happens if only some of the water is imbibed: does the rest of it retain its magical potency or not? The spell should also probably scale the damage with caster level, but other than that, it looks fine.

EDIT: Because I don't feel like double-posting, I'll give a quick re-PEACH of the Martial spells for zagan.

The new example for the Enhancer looks good.

Martial Support looks fine. The extra readied maneuver is a nice benefit, but I don't think it's too much. You should mention what happens to your readied maneuvers when you pop it off, though.

The wording on Martial Extension looks fine now. The bonus to skill checks is minor, but useful at the lower levels with Tiger Claw shenanigans. You're missing some "s" on the plurals, but whatever.

I find it odd that Martial Projection gives a bonus on saves against maneuvers rather than increasing save DCs for maneuvers, but that's just me. Otherwise, it looks good.

Glimbur

2010-08-03, 08:10 PM

So I've got some spells up. It's possible that Gideon's Purge should be Conj (healing) but since it doesn't actually restore hp I made it transmutation. Gideon's Grasp might be unclear. Archivists are kind of jerks when you're trying to make Paladin or Ranger spells, but all they can use is Trumpet which is fine and Grasp which is mostly useful for things you can dodge via Freedom of Movement instead.

The save for Gideon's Trumpet is pretty odd, it would certainly be easier but less powerful to only allow rerolls of effects that allowed a save in the first place.

Zaydos

2010-08-03, 11:53 PM

Well I've looked over all the spells. I don't have much to say, though. But here goes.

To Hyooz: I like the Blood component mechanic. The only real thing I have to say is with the Crimson Ruby spell you don't have a price listed for the component which means it is theoretically free. Also as written you can heal yourself with the spell, which means a wizard effectively becomes immune to damage for the duration since they can just use an immediate action to fully heal whenever it gets too much (this might have been fully intentional). I'd say put a price down for the ruby and maybe make it heal less than the damage received. Also Maksim's Revivification isn't my favorite because it's effectively just revivify but better and for wizards. Finally with Maksim's Lesser Communion is it just CL or do you also get your Int modifier, from reading it I'd say it is flat CL but I just wanted to double check.

To Zagan: Not much I can say here. I'd like to see some minor extra benefit for having all three of the expendable spells in effect at once, but they don't need it and I'm not sure how it would affect their balance. Other than that I'd actually say Kuthar's Martial Linking looks like it could be Lv 4, except then (as already mentioned) it would be valid for Persisting.

To playswithfire: Like the alcohol theme, some of the spells make me want to laugh but they still seem usable and useful. Bibbuluh's Memory Aid and Bibbuluh's Cold Shower especially look useful, although Fire Water looks like the most fun. Game mechanically my only problem is

If your caster level is at least 9th, you may gain the positive effects of an alcohol while ignoring the negative ones and you only suffer that effect of a poison or drug even on a failed save.

The last part of the sentence (bolded by me) is confusing, only suffer the positive effect of a poison or drug on a failed save? Other than that what is the ranged increment for firewater used as a splash weapon and does it vary by size (although how many wizards could even throw 8 gallons).

To Glimbur: Gideon's Grasp is a little oddly worded (I'm one to talk) but understandable. Can't say as a DM I like Gideon's Trumpet's ability to negate save free fear effects, but I'm trying to think of what grants save free fear effects other than Intimidate and as a player fear effects that don't allow saves feel cheap (and besides they'd just be Shaken or else they'd be totally broken); my final verdict would be keep the ability but make it only a 25% chance. Aghh now you've made me want to make a dungeon which applies the shaken condition to everything that enters without a save. My favorite is probably Gideon's Tomb Strike (which I would make Conjuration [Healing] but even if it's Transmutation I still like it) although Gideon's Wings of Wrath also seems neat (a little better than Swift Fly but balanced).

To everyone: Looks good, I wish mine were as nice :smallsmile:

zagan

2010-08-04, 07:00 AM

I'm hoping to get some fluff and a few spells up soon. The problem with this contest is I have three separate ideas rolling, but the one you spawned gave me more than the other two for spell ideas.

Now I'm getting really curious.

Huh, so you did. My bad. I hate it when I have mistakes like this in my PEACHes.:smallredface:

Happen to me all the time, don't worry.

Honestly, that's probably the right thing to do. I'd either have to work at it to get to persist it or I could just blow 6th level slots on Extended Kuthar’s Martial Linking, which is also fine with me.

Yeah.

I look forward to seeing it. I know your work has caught my eye in the past, so I'll probably swing by that project and throw down a PEACH there, too.

I'm glad. Hoppefully I will post later today.

EDIT: Because I don't feel like double-posting, I'll give a quick re-PEACH of the Martial spells for zagan.

The new example for the Enhancer looks good.

Kay.

Martial Support looks fine. The extra readied maneuver is a nice benefit, but I don't think it's too much. You should mention what happens to your readied maneuvers when you pop it off, though.

Good point i will do that.

The wording on Martial Extension looks fine now. The bonus to skill checks is minor, but useful at the lower levels with Tiger Claw shenanigans. You're missing some "s" on the plurals, but whatever.

I'll try to correct that.

I find it odd that Martial Projection gives a bonus on saves against maneuvers rather than increasing save DCs for maneuvers, but that's just me. Otherwise, it looks good.

I wasn't sure on that I want something really minor because using strike at range can be really usefull.

To Zagan: Not much I can say here. I'd like to see some minor extra benefit for having all three of the expendable spells in effect at once, but they don't need it and I'm not sure how it would affect their balance. Other than that I'd actually say Kuthar's Martial Linking looks like it could be Lv 4, except then (as already mentioned) it would be valid for Persisting.

Yes, it will stay lv 5, better a weak 5 than a too strong 4.

zagan

2010-08-04, 07:38 AM

Now Peaching:

Thrice dead cat already did a pretty good job on Playwithfire work so I won't do a second one before you change thing

Glimbur spells:

Fluff: Very nice, I wasn't expecting paladin spell so kudo on that and the story is nice.

Gideon's Tomb Strike: I'm not if I would have gone with evocation for that but I have a hard time coming with better. The range of personal confuse me a little, touch and target one weapon might be better. My english isn't great but i believ it should be "Undead get a will save to halves the damage inflicted by Lay on Hands on them."
What happen is I use it on a living creature does my weapon also deal damage or can i chose to only give the lay on hand benefit ? On a reach or ranged weapon it could be usefull to heal ally without moving.
Nice idea anyway, it's interesting to have more use for that ability.

Gideon's Grasp: Wording, "in excess of your own size bonus" might be clearer. Also an interesting idea.

Gideon's Purge: Wording, "spend one of your weekly Remove Disease use" and you might want to add: If you can't either because you don't have use remaining or because you don't have this class feature you can't cast this spell. Or something like that. As with the first one it's nice to be able to use these thing on something else.

Gideon's Trumpet: Fit the paladin theme. I don't much like the word originator but i can't think of better.

Gideon's Wings of Wrath: Okay cool. And original mecanic.

Glimbur

2010-08-04, 12:03 PM

Thanks, I have refined the spells as you suggested.

playswithfire

2010-08-04, 04:51 PM

Thank you to all who have commented on my spells so far. Expect changes and formal response to comments to take place this weekend (busy work week).

Glimbur

2010-08-04, 07:11 PM

PEACHes for everyone!

Hyooz:

Blood component is interesting. Temp hp are the easiest way I can think of to reduce the impact of this, but that still costs resources so I don't know if you need to forbid that.

Lesser Invigoration steps on the cleric's toes a little. On the other hand, it is only a cantrip and it is necromancy, so I'm ok with it.

Lesser Communion is cool and hearkens back to an older definition of necromancy. This might fit better in divination though, which kind of grates against your person.

Vicious Upwelling is useful and powerful. I am concerned that it is SR: No. The ability to use the blood to power your spells next round is cool.

Maksim's Crimson Ruby is cool. It is another way to reduce the pain of using Blood Components, but then it costs you a spell slot so that is not too scary. I am concerned that you can heal with it as an immediate action; again this steps on the cleric's role but you should be ok if you make it a standard action.

Palsy looked weak and I thought it needed a longer duration until I saw the blood component. Cones are still somewhat problematic and the damage is pretty low. I would kick it up to 2d4 per round.

Revivification (that word looks funny, by the way) is like a cleric spell but better and cheaper. I would be more comfortable with giving wizards a form of Revenance, which temporarily reanimates people.

All in all, you are kind of hampered by the narrow definition of necromancy that isn't negative energy or undead. It would be cool to use negative energy to cure disease.

Zaydos

The singing flower is cute.

Lighting Net looks useful, but honestly Black Tentacles is better. I think it could move down a level, to third level. Then it competes with fireball by being smaller in area but a different element and entangle-y.

I don't see how the Thunderous Claws are claws. I'm not sure exactly what level this should be, but with the cap going to 15d4 maybe fourth is ok. I might slip it to third; touch attacks are dangerous.

The wording on rune blade could use a little cleaning up. By the cap it looks like you get +1 +1/four CL's. Did you intend to increase the effective enchantment by only two when it was expended? By my current reading it doubles the enchantment, plus two.

Rune Claws seems similar to Superior Magic Fang (spell compendium) but worse. I would just drop it.

Eldritch Augmentation is interesting. Invocations are rare, but I could see a warlock suppressing Fell Flight or any other buff after they cast it on themselves. You might want to remove the effect of the invocation which is suppressed to avoid this.

Sphere of Electric Devastation is too high level. Radiant Assault (SpC) is lower level, untyped damage, larger radius, and also a daze effect. It also does d6's instead of d4. Average damage of 52.5 versus 62.5 at maximum effective CL, which is easier to reach for Radiant Assault. Drop it to about 6th, maybe 5th and throw on a Ref save for half. It keeps getting better with higher CL, but it starts out kind of weak. I'm also unclear on your fluff here, as I don't see why the spell would work in an AMF.

Storm of the Soul is a nice buff. Compared to Animal Growth, which is Druid 5 but Ranger 4 it is more speed and more AC but less damage increase. +8 str means +4 damage per attack, which is more on average than 3.5 electrical. In addition, more base damage is better in case of elemental resistances. I might drop it to Ranger 3. My gut says it's too good to be Druid 3 though.

Wall of Thunder has to be broken and then it still does damage and repulses people who can't make the save? It's like Wall of Fire and Wall of Ice stapled together. I would make it more like Prismatic Wall and not require people to break it and then make saves, as it is it's as good as a wall of force because it is so expensive in actions to get through. I would just teleport rather than force my way through. Wall of Fire is about the same level and is much easier to get through, the element change to sonic and electric alone makes this better. I'd keep everything but the requirement to break it before you can try to get through.

I'm a little fuzzy on why Zantar was both Wizard and Druid. The backstory was a little tl;dr

Zagan already got a PEACH from me. Martial Linking is really expensive, remember that iterative attacks are less likely to hit so it might be ok lower level.

Playswithfire

Iron Guts is nice. Mettle for poisons only is not a big deal, and it happens later in your career. I like it.

Memory Aid is really useful. My only concern is that you need to have a CL of 16 for it to last long enough assuming you get a full 8 hours of sleep after your night of drunkenness, which seems to be the original purpose of this spell. It has... other applications, which I like.

Rosy Haze is interesting. The concentration requirement and miss chance mean that it's not awesome for combats, but still interesting. It is less awesome than Haste at buffing for combat, but has other perks. Keep it.

Cold Shower is nice, it could probably be a level lower.

Fire Water is a little tricky because there is no facing, you could aim the cone with a d8 scatter die if there is any doubt. I don't see this as anywhere Bard 5 or Domain 7, I'd put it about Bard 3 and Domain 4.

Glimbur: Your spells are entirely perfect. You are demonstrably a genius.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-04, 07:41 PM

Glimbur: Your spells are entirely perfect. You are demonstrably a genius.

I c wut u did thar. Honestly, if I didn't know you better, I would hate you for that bit. However, as this is your general MO, I couldn't help but chuckle.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-04, 10:51 PM

...and my spells are finally up! I may need to expand with The Bookkeeper's background to help explain the nonmagic magical abilities, but the basics should be there.

Inspiration largely came from zagan's Martial spells and Kurald Galain's Bookkeeper's Bane. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177)

playswithfire

2010-08-04, 10:52 PM

And while I'm at it, I'll PEACH BIBBULUH'S SPELLBOOK, too!

The opening fluff is a little light, but that's something that can easily be added later.

Yeah, I erred on the side of brevity for the initial post to stop myself from creating a whole arcane monk order that brews both beer and potions.

For Bibbuluh's Iron Guts, the focus is generally put at the bottom of the spell description. Also, as the spell is Range: Personal, having a line for SR is meaningless as caster always automatically overcome their own SR. The wording needs work. You should mention if the bonus increases at CL 5 or CL 6, as the "increases every 5th caster level" bit could be interpreted either way. The second "and" in the second sentence should be replaced by a comma. You should probably list the positive effects of alcohol, as I have no idea what they may be. Even a simple blurb referring to a list of booze in something like Arms and Equipment will do. The last part of the last sentence also needs work, as I've got no idea as to what it means: does poison stop working on me? Do I benefit from random poisons somehow? Etc.

For Memory Aid, see my line about the focus on Iron Guts for the material component. You have an extra "record" in the first sentence that doesn't need to be there. For the retention of the information, it should probably read "Once the object is done recording, it will continue to retain the information up to another 30 minutes per caster level." You also need to say how it absorbs the memories. Is it standard sight, sound, smell? Or does the object record information with the benefits of Darkvision and Blindsight? You should probably list what the DC for the Will Save is, as some spells will give a non-standard formula. Also, you should mention what success and failure do to the creature attempting to absorb the memories from the object.

For the Rosy Haze, you should probably allow a saving throw as it could be used offensively to stack mischances. Your "additional" is missing its "l." You should also list in full the increased bonuses at 14th level (i.e., "+4 morale to Strength and Charisma..."). Other than that, looks fine.

For the Cold Shower, you should replace "It" with "The spell" or something similar. The save should be "Fortitude partial; see text" and probably have some blurb on it to prevent Mettle from stopping the beneficiary parts of the spell on a successful save. Otherwise, I like it.

For the Fire Water, you should mention what happens if only some of the water is imbibed: does the rest of it retain its magical potency or not? The spell should also probably scale the damage with caster level, but other than that, it looks fine.

Made most of the changes you recommended, except for Fire Water; still need to work out the mechanics on that one better. And I didn't explicitly list the save DCs, since they all use the standard formula.

To playswithfire: Like the alcohol theme, some of the spells make me want to laugh but they still seem usable and useful. Bibbuluh's Memory Aid and Bibbuluh's Cold Shower especially look useful, although Fire Water looks like the most fun. Game mechanically my only problem is ...

The last part of the sentence (bolded by me) is confusing, only suffer the positive effect of a poison or drug on a failed save? Other than that what is the ranged increment for firewater used as a splash weapon and does it vary by size (although how many wizards could even throw 8 gallons).

My goal was humorous spells that could still actually have a use in-game. Re-worded Iron Guts. I need to give Fire Water some more thought.

PEACHes for everyone!
Iron Guts is nice. Mettle for poisons only is not a big deal, and it happens later in your career. I like it.

Memory Aid is really useful. My only concern is that you need to have a CL of 16 for it to last long enough assuming you get a full 8 hours of sleep after your night of drunkenness, which seems to be the original purpose of this spell. It has... other applications, which I like.

Rosy Haze is interesting. The concentration requirement and miss chance mean that it's not awesome for combats, but still interesting. It is less awesome than Haste at buffing for combat, but has other perks. Keep it.

Cold Shower is nice, it could probably be a level lower.

Fire Water is a little tricky because there is no facing, you could aim the cone with a d8 scatter die if there is any doubt. I don't see this as anywhere Bard 5 or Domain 7, I'd put it about Bard 3 and Domain 4.

Thanks for the comments. Changed memory aid to retain the memories for a total of 24 hours, though it still only records 1 hour/level. I based the duration for Rosy Haze on the one for Rage and since it's Concentration + 1 round/level, it can still be used in combat. Fire Water will be getting a serious overhaul over the next few days. I'll try to adjust the damage potential so it fits well at Bard 5. I wanted one spell for each bard spell level (if I can think of them, I may add a cantrip and a Bard 6).

Thanks to all those who commented.

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-05, 03:24 AM

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-05, 05:37 AM

Ok, I put up my hastily-designed entry. It is quite likely that power levels are completely out of whack, but they seem fitting, other than that. Anyway, the creator is the kind of guy you could probably beat in a fair fight. The problem is, he's not a fan of fair fights. Plus, Belror's Rude Awakening is the most powerful nightmare fuel I have ever dared to release upon the world.

I'll throw you a quick PEACH.

First off, is there any reason why these are all Sorcerer only rather than the usual "Wizard/Sorcerer X?" Generally, the only reason for restricting the spells to only one or the other is when they either A) Require prepared spells, B) Require spontaneity, or C) Have something to do with dragon's blood shenanigans.

Rude Awakening looks fine and good for its level. You should mention if people with psionic powers, spells, or whatever can still use such and what restrictions would apply on doing so. I would imagine that componentless spells are kosher, as are psionics in general, but it's good to throw such down.

Uncontrolled Rage is Confusion on crack and a spell level sooner to boot! As such, it'd probably be better at at least 4th level, more than likely 5th level. You should mention on each roll with "allies" listed that you mean "allies other than the caster/target/whatever" as each person is always considered his own ally in 3.5

Bone Breaking is a little strong for a second level spell. The counter to it is also odd in the sense that a Cure Minor would solve the problem, but trying to make a heal check could result in DCs in the low 30s or high 20s at 4th freaking level. I'd suggest changing the heal check DC to being based off of either a spell DC or casting modifier instead. For a second level spell, their should probably be a restriction on time, otherwise it should probably be 4th level or so.

Skeletal Stiffness suffers some of the same problems that Shivering Touch does. Does it do 2 Dex damage/minute or does the 2 Dex damage only last for 1 minute/caster level? Other than that wonky issue, the spell looks fine for its level, as it's basically a -1 to every Dex-based check when you get it, bumping up to -2 at 8th level.

Ironic Death is functionally similar to a cleric spell from Complete Champion I want to say. I'd check that out. Otherwise, it looks fine in principle, but I feel as though there should be a save to realize that shenanigans are afoot.

zagan

2010-08-05, 07:49 AM

As promised peach for Thirce dead cat work,

THE BOOKKEEPER'S SPELLBOOK

Fluff: Simple image but fitting. The fluff is interesting and might even give a nice plot hook.

Multiple Sourced Spells and Powers: Very interesting idea but it strike as odd that you need more ressource to use the pisonic than the incarnum or binding spell. In the later case you need "only" one feat in the other you need a power point reserve at least big enough to use the spell not just wild talent. Still I like it.

The Bookkeeper's Bane: Okay in order:
-How can be be knowledge 1 while there's already a spell in that domain of that level ?
-A spell that can transform a wizard or archivist permanently into a commoner at level 2 (or even 1) with no saving throw ??? Eve, with the mind-affecting tag this is way too strong. I don't know at what level it should be but it need at least to give a save. The only comparable spell I could find (in the srd) is Blindness/Deafness and it offer a save for a far lesser effect.
-If I prepare my spell using an aureon's spellshard (ECS p265) replace a spellbook to prepare spell with.

The Bookkeeper's Mind Reader: This one is very nice I can't think of any way to abuse it from the top of my head. Very good idea.

The Bookkeeper's Infusion: This one is very nice. Ironically the secondary effect is probably better than the primary one because increasing the max essentia of a receptacle is even harder than gaining bonus essentia. Still very nice mechanic.

The Bookkeeper's Focus: I love this one. Could you use the spell to maintian effect that ask you to keep your psionic focus such as speed of thought ?

The Bookkeeper's Bound Soul: This one is very nice and balanced too.

Conclussions: Very good work and interesting idea. Do you intend to add more ?

On a side note, if you're still interest I've post what I've mentioned previously it's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162975) I would appreciate your opinion on it if you have the time.

While I'm at it I will aslo peach Bladeofoblivion work.

BELROR'S SPELLBOOK

Fluff: Very interesting fluff, I like it.

Belror's Rude Awakening: I really like this one, it's really evil. Could a psionic character use it's power while under the effect or could he use spell-like ability both purelly mental action ?

Belror's Uncontrolled Rage: The idea is very nice but you seem to be missing some text. While the fluff imply that it force a creature into a rage you need to say so. Does the target need to be able to rage ? If not what are the stat change, as a 1st level barbarian ? If the target can rage does it consume a rage per day and does he use is own bonus ?
The random part is a nice idea but you need a better wording such as "the target attack a random creature as determine by the following table:" or something like that. Also as thrice said it's too low level.

Belror's Bone Breaking: As was said probably too low level.

Belror's Skeletal Stiffness: need to clarify wording but fine otherwise

Belror's Ironic Death: I really like this one but yes it's close to Bewildering Substitution from complete champion (p116)

Conclusions: Nice work and i love the theme.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-05, 10:31 AM

As promised peach for Thirce dead cat work,

Always appreciated!

THE BOOKKEEPER'S SPELLBOOK

Fluff: Simple image but fitting. The fluff is interesting and might even give a nice plot hook.

I still have more that I feel like I should add to it. I'm having trouble where I'd fit it in without breaking the "flow" of the fluff, but I want to mention some obtuse scheme for converting an entire library into some sort of elaborate "give me divine essence" machine to explain the Demigod-ness, Simulacra working libraries all over the planes to explain how his spells pop up at seemingly random, and detailing how every single book in his own personal collection was either copied via Amanuensis or faked via Secret Page. I may still add at least some of it in, I just don't want it to feel forced.

Multiple Sourced Spells and Powers: Very interesting idea but it strike as odd that you need more ressource to use the pisonic than the incarnum or binding spell. In the later case you need "only" one feat in the other you need a power point reserve at least big enough to use the spell not just wild talent. Still I like it.

My initial thoughts were that psionics/arcane would be more prevalent/easier to accomplish than arcane/others, but I may just reduce it down to "must have a power point reserve" for sake of making it more appealing.

The Bookkeeper's Bane: Okay in order:
-How can be be knowledge 1 while there's already a spell in that domain of that level ?
-A spell that can transform a wizard or archivist permanently into a commoner at level 2 (or even 1) with no saving throw ??? Eve, with the mind-affecting tag this is way too strong. I don't know at what level it should be but it need at least to give a save. The only comparable spell I could find (in the srd) is Blindness/Deafness and it offer a save for a far lesser effect.
-If I prepare my spell using an aureon's spellshard (ECS p265) replace a spellbook to prepare spell with.

For the Knowledge 1, some Forgotten Realms books list alternate spells for various domains at certain levels. I suppose I should make it clear that such would be a permanent, alternative replacement for some clerics.

I was debating the save, but in my mind it's less a combat spell and more something to keep a prisoner inline, as it doesn't prevent a wizard from casting whatever he has left. I did go against my gut and put it at 2nd level instead of 3rd or 4th level.

I'll have to check the Spellshard, though, as I'm unfamiliar with it. I it's done without the usual text-format of a spellbook, I'd be inclined to let it bypass the spell, but I'll probably give a more definite answer after I tweak Bookkeeper's Bane a little bit.

The Bookkeeper's Mind Reader: This one is very nice I can't think of any way to abuse it from the top of my head. Very good idea.

Yeah, I tried to prevent the silliness that would be giving Schism and other psionics-only tricks to every wizard or archivist ever, but it would still allow a party of multiple spell/prayerbook based casters to gain the same benefit from just one casting. In my mind, I also still see it as an unorthodox way for a Cerbremancer to be able to metamagic his powers... which reminds me that I need to add a bit more to this to detail the whole school conversions and what not, too.

The Bookkeeper's Infusion: This one is very nice. Ironically the secondary effect is probably better than the primary one because increasing the max essentia of a receptacle is even harder than gaining bonus essentia. Still very nice mechanic.

Yeah, I kind of realized that after I threw it down, but I'm okay with the secondary being better than the primary. It kind of reminds me of Heart of Water in that regard. Free swimming is nice, but free FoM on basically an all day long trigger is better.

The Bookkeeper's Focus: I love this one. Could you use the spell to maintian effect that ask you to keep your psionic focus such as speed of thought ?

I'm inclined to say "yes," as I forgot about various features that just care if your focused or not.

The Bookkeeper's Bound Soul: This one is very nice and balanced too.

This one was pretty simple as I often feel that I only ever get to use any one special ability once per combat as a binder. It may not give you a second use in a fight, but it could still help.

Conclussions: Very good work and interesting idea. Do you intend to add more ?

Definitely! I was a little worried getting into this contest as even though I knew I had a lot to work with, I only really had three spell ideas in my head when I started my entry. I'd like to have at least two spells per combination, maybe three per combination if I don't just throw some generic ones down.

On a side note, if you're still interest I've post what I've mentioned previously it's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162975) I would appreciate your opinion on it if you have the time.

I'll go ahead and swing by it right now. I'm a little groggy so I may not be able to give a PEACH right this moment, but I'll definitely take a look.

EDIT: I've made a few quick changes. I'll probably also throw up a new domain rather than toy with the wording of having alternate spells on the Knowledge domain list. This should also get me more motivated to actually feel out that bugger, too!

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-05, 01:38 PM

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-07, 01:43 AM

Ok, I made some fixes. Thrice, the reason that they are all Sorcerer spells is explained in the Fluff. The Guy hated wizards and couldn't bear to have his creations used against him by some Scrawny, Pathetic Wizard. The Real Reason is that I like to throw Sorcerers a bone. I fixed Uncontrollable Rage as it is more or less Confusion on Crack. On Bone Breaking, I meant CHA Modifier, but I was just sleepy. I am not going to put it above 3rd level, as it is Decidedly Weaker than Bestow Curse. Stiffness has been clarified, and Ironic Death is left as is.

That's cool, it's just generally restricting spells to one or the other kind of bugs me, and I personally find the irony of someone restricting something from a certain type of people only to have them gain it in the end amusing.

Also, I've got a new spell and spoiler up.

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-07, 02:16 AM

You can add more?! That's Allowed?! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

zagan

2010-08-07, 05:18 AM

You can add more?! That's Allowed?! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Of course, I've done so myself and if i'm inspired before the end of the contest i might add more.

Now for thrice addition/change:

The Bookkeeper's Expanded Soul:
I love it ! High enough level that you can't use it on yourself unless you're an anima mage and very team friendly if you have a binder in the party. Kudo for that !

The Bookkeeper's Bane, new version: Much better ! Seem fine now.

Atheneum domain: Nice so far, three thing:
What does the name mean ?
The option to replace knowledge and magic domain for this one is nice but perhaps unclear at first reading I get the impression that you need to trade both domain for this one.
Where the patience domain from ?
As for power maybe make the cleric count as having a power point reserve, essentia pool and ability to bind vestige if doing so would be advantageous ?
They don't really gain anything but they can use their spell.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-07, 05:55 AM

The Bookkeeper's Expanded Soul:
I love it ! High enough level that you can't use it on yourself unless you're an anima mage and very team friendly if you have a binder in the party. Kudo for that !

I figured that would be a sort of "end-game" type of spell, considering just how few binds a binder can have at any one time.

The Bookkeeper's Bane, new version: Much better ! Seem fine now.

Good to hear. I figured that for a prisoner-scenario the no-save 1 day/CL would be fine, but it could still hurt for a PC to get hit.

Atheneum domain: Nice so far, three thing:
What does the name mean ?
The option to replace knowledge and magic domain for this one is nice but perhaps unclear at first reading I get the impression that you need to trade both domain for this one.
Where the patience domain from ?
As for power maybe make the cleric count as having a power point reserve, essentia pool and ability to bind vestige if doing so would be advantageous ?
They don't really gain anything but they can use their spell.

The name is something that roughly means "Library" that I stole off of dictionary.com's thesaurus function.

I spent a little bit of time trying to make it clear that you only need to spend up your ability to take the Knowledge and Magic domains with cleric levels, but I suspected that would need work. Basically, if you choose the Atheneum domain you cannot use your second domain slot on Magic or Knowledge.

I can't site the patience domain off-hand, but I want to say either Draconomicon or Spell Compendium.

Thanks for the idea on the granted power! I had something vague down for it, but nothing really satisfied me. This now seems so obvious to me it's kind of sad.:smallredface:

EDIT: I tried a quick hand at clearing up the domain issue. I also took your suggestion and threw 3 PP and 1 essentia at them. I'll try to have an essentia-spell up tomorrow or Monday, maybe more if inspiration strikes as I'm wanting to hit the full cap of 10 spells.

zagan

2010-08-07, 06:46 AM

The name is something that roughly means "Library" that I stole off of dictionary.com's thesaurus function.

Okay.

I spent a little bit of time trying to make it clear that you only need to spend up your ability to take the Knowledge and Magic domains with cleric levels, but I suspected that would need work. Basically, if you choose the Atheneum domain you cannot use your second domain slot on Magic or Knowledge.

That's what i understand but it was a little unclear.

I can't site the patience domain off-hand, but I want to say either Draconomicon or Spell Compendium.

The only patience domain I can find is from Dragon mag 355 p28

Thanks for the idea on the granted power! I had something vague down for it, but nothing really satisfied me. This now seems so obvious to me it's kind of sad.:smallredface:

Glad to have helped.

EDIT: I tried a quick hand at clearing up the domain issue. I also took your suggestion and threw 3 PP and 1 essentia at them. I'll try to have an essentia-spell up tomorrow or Monday, maybe more if inspiration strikes as I'm wanting to hit the full cap of 10 spells.

This seem fine.

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-07, 02:16 PM

I'm going to add more as soon as I can think of some more things straight out of an anatomy teacher's nightmares.

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-09, 05:39 PM

Messed with the domain spells a bit and added another psionic spell to the list. I've currently got another binding spell and incarnum spell in the works, but I'm leaving the former until everything else is finished.

zagan

2010-08-10, 07:04 AM

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-08-10, 08:14 AM

Comment on Imprinted mind: The equivalent of you other spell that convert power into spell. I'm curious about the level difference, I would have though that they would be of the same level (or even fuse into one spell/power)

I was debating that, but it's mostly so it fits better on the domain list. That and the options are much greater for spells than for powers.

zagan

2010-08-13, 03:55 PM

Peach for "On the life and time of Edward the sly"

Fluff: I really like the fluff and the image from complete scoundrel

Luck component: Very nice idea, I like it.

Edward's Lucky Break: Really, really nice. Not sure if it would be worth a second level spell but at first level I get the feeling it's too powerful. Remind me a lot of abrupt jaunt which is considered very powerfull. Why conjuration and divination ?

Edward's Lucky Charm: Very nice too. The mechanic that add the bonus directly to the roll is interesting and powerfull.

Edward's Lucky Moment: Simple but cool.

Edward's Lucky Streak: Really powerfull this one. No luck component ? I think it could be abused in a crit build. (classic keen kukri with blood in the water stances). While rolling 10 or below end the spell It's not clear if the bonus count for that, if I have a +5 luck bonus do only rolling a 5 or below end it ?

Edward's Purloined Fortune: I love this one ! Nothing else to say on that count.

Edward's Replenishing Luck: Very nice but at level 4 it's probably all right.

Conclusions: I really like the fluff in each spell really add to the flavor, the mechanic of the luck component and adding the bonus to the die direcly is very nice too. All in all very good work.

PId6

2010-08-13, 04:39 PM

Peach for "On the life and time of Edward the sly"
Thanks for the PEACH; always helpful.

Edward's Lucky Break: Really, really nice. Not sure if it would be worth a second level spell but at first level I get the feeling it's too powerful. Remind me a lot of abrupt jaunt which is considered very powerfull. Why conjuration and divination ?
I balanced this in comparison to Wings of Cover, which I consider a very good but not broken spell. The limiting factor on this is the expenditure of luck rerolls, which are extremely tight and require a lot of resources (aka feats) to get. To me, that justified the lower level, and likely made this weaker than Wings of Cover too. The luck reroll limitation also grants you a lot less uses than Abrupt Jaunt.

It's divination because I consider the idea of luck inherently falls under divination. It's Conjuration [Teleportation] because it's a teleporting effect. I had considered making it purely divination and fluffing it as "you were actually standing there the entire time," but that felt a bit too hard to believe. :smalltongue:

Edward's Lucky Streak: Really powerfull this one. No luck component ? I think it could be abused in a crit build. (classic keen kukri with blood in the water stances). While rolling 10 or below end the spell It's not clear if the bonus count for that, if I have a +5 luck bonus do only rolling a 5 or below end it ?
It is very powerful, but it's also very risky. Every time you roll a d20, you'll always have at least a 25% chance of the spell failing. Even at caster level 15, you'll have to succeed with rolls at 50%, 55%, 60%, 65%, and 70% in order to get a +5 bonus, which is very unlikely. You can skew that distribution by using rerolls and Action Points and such, but that requires expending even more resources to perform. Due to the short duration, long buildup, and multiple chances of failure, I think the spell's powerful effects are relatively balanced (though with something this weird, its impossible to be sure).

I didn't include a Luck component on this one because you're going to be expending them like crazy to make sure the spell doesn't fail. And yeah, the bonus was meant to be included in the spell's own calculations, which gives a sense of the more you get lucky, the easier it is to get luckier.

Conclusions: I really like the fluff in each spell really add to the flavor, the mechanic of the luck component and adding the bonus to the die direcly is very nice too. All in all very good work.
Thank you! :smallsmile:

zagan

2010-08-14, 05:29 AM

Thanks for the PEACH; always helpful.

I balanced this in comparison to Wings of Cover, which I consider a very good but not broken spell. The limiting factor on this is the expenditure of luck rerolls, which are extremely tight and require a lot of resources (aka feats) to get. To me, that justified the lower level, and likely made this weaker than Wings of Cover too. The luck reroll limitation also grants you a lot less uses than Abrupt Jaunt.

Very true, I didn't consider that.

It's divination because I consider the idea of luck inherently falls under divination. It's Conjuration [Teleportation] because it's a teleporting effect. I had considered making it purely divination and fluffing it as "you were actually standing there the entire time," but that felt a bit too hard to believe. :smalltongue:

Okay.

It is very powerful, but it's also very risky. Every time you roll a d20, you'll always have at least a 25% chance of the spell failing. Even at caster level 15, you'll have to succeed with rolls at 50%, 55%, 60%, 65%, and 70% in order to get a +5 bonus, which is very unlikely. You can skew that distribution by using rerolls and Action Points and such, but that requires expending even more resources to perform. Due to the short duration, long buildup, and multiple chances of failure, I think the spell's powerful effects are relatively balanced (though with something this weird, its impossible to be sure).

I can see your reasoning, and crit build need aren't that common particulary with caster level.

I didn't include a Luck component on this one because you're going to be expending them like crazy to make sure the spell doesn't fail. And yeah, the bonus was meant to be included in the spell's own calculations, which gives a sense of the more you get lucky, the easier it is to get luckier.

Okay, the reasoning is sound.

Thank you! :smallsmile:

Glad to help.

Glimbur

2010-08-17, 07:08 PM

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-17, 08:26 PM

PEACH of Belror's spells.

Let's compare Rude Awakening to Dominate Person. They're the same level, and Dominate Person is more restrictive on targets. Dominate lasts a lot longer (round/level v day/level). Dominate offers a meaningful save. Dominate allows another save if you're compelled to do something abhorrent. My biggest concern is that there is no helpful save against Rude Awakening, and no viable defense besides not having a skeleton or having lots of SR, or Mettle. I would be ok with Rude Awakening if the fort save suppressed the animation of the skeleton, and if it offered a save every round. As it is, it's crazy good.

Uncontrolled Rage is significantly stronger than Confusion. It's also a level higher, but a 3/6 chance of actively hurting the party is very strong. Even worse, the best way to attack yourself is a coup de grace (barring rules trickery about how you can't coup de grace yourself), which is probably lethal to most low will save folks. I'd spread the table out to a d8, pull out the bystander attack, and include 3/8 act normally.

Bone Breaking... normally you don't include both a touch attack and a saving throw. The rules about a spine attack are inconsistent, does it last 1d4 rounds or until cured? D&D doesn't model maiming well, but compare this to bestow curse. Bone Breaking is a level lower and is more limited in what it can affect. So, the power level is reasonable.

Skeletal Stiffness doesn't need a saving throw. Without one it could theoretically drop a dragon at CL 20, but by then dragons should be cheating up their dex and/or have other defenses.

With regard to Ironic Death, it's a mix of Disguise Self (1st level) and... the lowest level spell I could find to disguise someone else (besides an undead) is Veil, at level 6. That seems too high, but I'd still peg this spell at third level, especially with the trickery about spellcraft to identify it.

There is one thing about Rude Awakening that I need to clarify, and that is that the target is still in control of their own mind and voice. That means that purely mental and verbal actions, such as Suggestion Spells and most Psionics, or, for that matter, an Iron Heart Surge, are not hindered by the spell and can still be used by the victim. In addition, the caster cannot force the victim to do any of these things. If anyone wants to help me fix the wording, that would be great.

You are probably correct about Uncontrolled Rage. I will fix that.

The spine function of Bone-Breaking lasts for 1d4 rounds. The Semi-Permanent duration is for the other two effects. Not sure how to word that. I modeled this one based slightly off bestow curse anyway.

You are likely correct about Skeletal Stiffness, as it already requires an attack roll. Dex damage hurts though.

Ironic Death is very limited, however. It is weaker for the purpose of disguising oneself than Disguise self, and it is only effective to disguise others as you. It is too conditional of a spell for most Sorcerers, hence the level 2 status. The only two real uses for it are as the description implies, and to throw off pursuers.

zagan

2010-09-01, 11:34 AM

I'm not sure PairO'Dice Lost will have the time to react to any comment but I will try to peach his entry:

Fluff: The aliteration thing is cute and was probably pretty hard to pull off but i need to reread multiple time to get everything still it's nice idea. The seventh son of a sententh son is a reference to pratchett or to magical mythe in general ?

Synosto's Serpentine Saboteur: A little complexe but I like the idea, a few thing:
-Can the snake be attacked and if so what's it's stat ?
-What's the size of the snake ? Large as in large size category ?
-Do magical trap get to make opposed caster level check or something ?
-No save against the gaze attack ? That seem strong particulary the restriction against "readied actions, immediate actions, contingencies"

Synosto's Soporific Symbol: This one seem fine and correct for it's level one thing are you immune to your own spell ?

Synosto's Superficial Seeming: I really like this one. Typo in casting time it should probably be "1 standard action".
-No effect can see through both disguise, like higher level spell ?

Synosto's Suitability Shroud: I love thos one ! :smallsmile:
One thing you mentionned that creature with other sense like dog or bulette could make a will save. While I understand that scent make sense, why would tremorsense help at all ?

Synosto's Split-Second Skedaddle: Very good too. One confusing thing you mentionned that thing like dimensional anchor would get transfered to the illusion but the spell would fail if you were affected by a dimensional anchor, no ?

Anyway, all very good of spell, good job.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-09-01, 11:56 AM

I'm not sure PairO'Dice Lost will have the time to react to any comment but I will try to peach his entry:

Well, the contest finished before you commented so I couldn't make any changes regardless, but I wasn't expecting to get any PEACHes at all so I appreciate it anyway.

Fluff: The aliteration thing is cute and was probably pretty hard to pull off but i need to reread multiple time to get everything still it's nice idea. The seventh son of a sententh son is a reference to pratchett or to magical mythe in general ?

Myths in general (it's a fairly common trope) but I did have Pratchett in mind.

Synosto's Serpentine Saboteur: A little complexe but I like the idea, a few thing:
-Can the snake be attacked and if so what's it's stat ?

I used "magical construct" instead of "creature" for that reason--it has no stats, it just occupies space, though I should have been more clear.

-What's the size of the snake ? Large as in large size category ?

Yep; large is big, Large is a size category.

-Do magical trap get to make opposed caster level check or something ?
-No save against the gaze attack ? That seem strong particulary the restriction against "readied actions, immediate actions, contingencies"

I knew I forgot something. There should be a Will save for both the traps and the gaze attack.

Synosto's Soporific Symbol: This one seem fine and correct for it's level one thing are you immune to your own spell ?

Yep.

Synosto's Superficial Seeming: I really like this one. Typo in casting time it should probably be "1 standard action".

Yep.

-No effect can see through both disguise, like higher level spell ?

That's correct. Wouldn't be much use for it if true seeing and such could see through it, would there? :smallwink: I based the level and functionality off a Dragon spell that creates an illusory disguise that cannot be seen through by any detection spells but is lower-level than true seeing; it's a narrow enough use of illusions that I thought it was justified.

Synosto's Suitability Shroud: I love thos one ! :smallsmile:
One thing you mentionned that creature with other sense like dog or bulette could make a will save. While I understand that scent make sense, why would tremorsense help at all ?

Tremorsense senses vibrations. Even if you look and feel like, say, a giant, your weight and the way you move will still match your true form.

Synosto's Split-Second Skedaddle: Very good too. One confusing thing you mentionned that thing like dimensional anchor would get transfered to the illusion but the spell would fail if you were affected by a dimensional anchor, no ?

Dimensional anchor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) is a single-target effect and would be transferred to the duplicate; Dimensional lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) is an area spell and would prevent the teleportation. The reason the spell is such a high level (aside from the fact that it combines two lower-level effects) is the fact that it can circumvent single-target restraints like dimensional anchor--the whole point is that it gets you out of things that are trying to prevent your escape without letting your captors know.

Anyway, all very good of spell, good job.

Thanks. I just wish I'd thought of it before 11 last night so I'd be able to change it based on feedback.

zagan

2010-09-01, 12:31 PM

Well, the contest finished before you commented so I couldn't make any changes regardless, but I wasn't expecting to get any PEACHes at all so I appreciate it anyway.

:smallredface: My bad I was sure it was until today at midnight.

I used "magical construct" instead of "creature" for that reason--it has no stats, it just occupies space, though I should have been more clear.

Okay.

Yep; large is big, Large is a size category.

I meant in the sense the it occupy four square simultaneously ans can suppress trap in a 4 by 4 square area. I ask because a medium size snake pretty big for a snake and because you put Large in capital.

I knew I forgot something. There should be a Will save for both the traps and the gaze attack.

Yep better that way.

That's correct. Wouldn't be much use for it if true seeing and such could see through it, would there? :smallwink: I based the level and functionality off a Dragon spell that creates an illusory disguise that cannot be seen through by any detection spells but is lower-level than true seeing; it's a narrow enough use of illusions that I thought it was justified.

okay.

Tremorsense senses vibrations. Even if you look and feel like, say, a giant, your weight and the way you move will still match your true form.

Yeah I can see that but it vary on what the target perceive.

Dimensional anchor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) is a single-target effect and would be transferred to the duplicate; Dimensional lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) is an area spell and would prevent the teleportation. The reason the spell is such a high level (aside from the fact that it combines two lower-level effects) is the fact that it can circumvent single-target restraints like dimensional anchor--the whole point is that it gets you out of things that are trying to prevent your escape without letting your captors know.

I was confusing the two, no problem then.

Thanks. I just wish I'd thought of it before 11 last night so I'd be able to change it based on feedback.

Very good work in so little time.

PairO'Dice Lost

2010-09-01, 01:01 PM

I meant in the sense the it occupy four square simultaneously ans can suppress trap in a 4 by 4 square area. I ask because a medium size snake pretty big for a snake and because you put Large in capital.

4 by 4 squares is 20 by 20 feet, which is a fair size room/vault/tunnel; I made it big enough so the caster can essentially cast the spell, send it in, and ensure that a whole room is safe for them.

Very good work in so little time.

Thanks.

DaTedinator

2010-09-01, 01:40 PM

Okay! Contest officially closed, and the voting thread is up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9270254)!

And may I just say, good job everyone! People really brought their A-game, and while I'm usually impressed with entries in contests, this one was, in my opinion, even higher quality stuff than usual.

DaTedinator

2010-09-17, 12:23 PM

Congratulations to Thrice Dead Cat, PId6, Glimbur, and zagan, and great job everyone! We had a pretty close race this time around.

Speaking of which, seeing as we had two ties, I went ahead and declared myself the official tie-breaker, because I didn't want to end with a tie. I'll be including that in the rules from now on, I suppose, though I'm open to complaints alternatives, including finishing with ties.

Glimbur

2010-09-17, 12:41 PM

I'm ok with you breaking ties. You should get some sort of autocratic powers for all the work you put in to this.

zagan

2010-09-17, 01:47 PM

I'm happy with an honorable mention thanks. :smallsmile:
So when does the next one start ?

DaTedinator

2010-09-17, 10:23 PM

Right now! Check it out! Contest IV: Origin of Species (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9378358)!

zagan

2010-09-18, 01:11 PM

Race, hum. i was half expecting this one. No real idea yet but it should be interesting.

DaTedinator

2010-09-18, 02:31 PM

Well, I mean, I can't be making up completely random stuff all the time. :smalltongue: One of the reasons I went with the rotating theme was so there could be a contest for normal stuff like races and feats and stuff, since there couldn't be a dedicated contest for either (it would get really, really hard to keep fresh).

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-09-19, 04:18 AM

Dang, why is my first thought to make another human variant for this?:smallbiggrin: I'll probably find another idea here shortly, though.

zagan

2010-09-25, 04:07 PM

Finally I've manage to finnish my race, it's was way harder than i though it would be. My first idea didn't pan out, but I'm pretty proud of my Lesser Silthilar.
I'll peach anyone that peach my race, in particular I would like to hear your though about the ability modifier and the dispersion ability.

EDIT: Oh and big thanks to unasorta for proofreading my work. :smallsmile:

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-09-25, 09:56 PM

Bah! I had nearly all of my fluff up before GITP decided to destroy my previewed post. I'll get my modular dragonborn-esque race up sometime in the next few days.

unosarta

2010-09-25, 10:21 PM

Bah! I had nearly all of my fluff up before GITP decided to destroy my previewed post. I'll get my modular dragonborn-esque race up sometime in the next few days.

That is why I always use word documents. :smallwink:

I may or may not have an entry for this class, depending on when I finish the soulmelds for my Base Class entry. I definitely have enough races to give stats. :smallbiggrin:

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-09-26, 03:05 PM

That is why I always use word documents. :smallwink:

I may or may not have an entry for this class, depending on when I finish the soulmelds for my Base Class entry. I definitely have enough races to give stats. :smallbiggrin:

See, I usually use word documents, but I felt that I could get everything done in one glorious burst of homebrew: I didn't.

It's not a terribly big deal, though. I can churn out the fluff again rather easily and maybe get some of the general mechanics down, too.

unosarta

2010-09-26, 03:10 PM

See, I usually use word documents, but I felt that I could get everything done in one glorious burst of homebrew: I didn't.

It's not a terribly big deal, though. I can churn out the fluff again rather easily and maybe get some of the general mechanics down, too.

Ah, well, I usually use 'em anyway. :smallbiggrin:

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-09-26, 03:56 PM

Got the basics up on crunch and nearly all the fluff, too. I've got six lists of abilities to go through. Those lists will probably be up later, too.

zagan

2010-09-26, 04:12 PM

Got the basics up on crunch and nearly all the fluff, too. I've got six lists of abilities to go through. Those lists will probably be up later, too.

Look really good so far, the image and the quote are really creppy but it fit, I'm looking forward to seing the possible ability.

unosarta

2010-09-26, 10:37 PM

Well, the Zaletah is posted. Any critiques would be greatly appreciated! :smallbiggrin:

zagan

2010-09-27, 07:21 AM

Quick comment for the Zaletha:

The fluff seem very nice even if it remind a little of the raptoran but that's normal seeing that they're both humanoid with wing.

You don't specify their type, I think you mean for them to be Fey but i'm not sure.
A little more detail on their glide speed would be nice like the gliding entry for the raptoran.

Na maximul age ? So they're immortal ? If so you need to stat it somewhere I think.

The archbow and Gesh spear seem like nice weapon.

Feat:

Keeneye: :smallamused: Hum, I get the feeling that i've seen something exactly like that somewhere before, wasn't it an homebrew Prc ? Ah, I can't remember. :smallwink:

Climb the tree: I don't understand this one. Ignoring difficult terrain in forest ? By climbing and gliding ? That's the goal ?

Guidance of the Fae Brethren: What's the use for this one ? It seem really situational and setting specific because it depend on the Dm integratting the race fluff in the game.

The god seem very nice.

unosarta

2010-09-27, 07:31 AM

Quick comment for the Zaletha:
Thanks!

The fluff seem very nice even if it remind a little of the raptoran but that's normal seeing that they're both humanoid with wing.
Well, that is a little bit unavoidable.

You don't specify their type, I think you mean for them to be Fey but i'm not sure.
A little more detail on their glide speed would be nice like the gliding entry for the raptoran.
Ugh, my mistake. Actually, they are not so much fey (because if they were, they would be at the very least LA +1), as humanoids descended from fey.

Na maximul age ? So they're immortal ? If so you need to stat it somewhere I think.
I could add one. It just seemed that if there was a race that was a) a hunter and gatherer society and b) not very many other races liked them or saw them in a positive light at all, if they weren't functionally immortal, a lot of them would have been dead, and the population would be incredibly small. I suppose I could remove it and simply say that they have a very, very small population.

The archbow and Gesh spear seem like nice weapon.
Thanks.

Feat:

Keeneye: :smallamused: Hum, I get the feeling that i've seen something exactly like that somewhere before, wasn't it an homebrew Prc ? Ah, I can't remember. :smallwink:
>_>
<_<

Definitely not... :smalltongue:

Climb the tree: I don't understand this one. Ignoring difficult terrain in forest ? By climbing and gliding ? That's the goal ?
This is practically an exact copy of the text from the Brachiation feat, in Complete Adventurer, but with a bonus that you can take 10 on Climb checks.

Guidance of the Fae Brethren: What's the use for this one ? It seem really situational and setting specific because it depend on the Dm integratting the race fluff in the game.
I suppose. It was mostly just another way to show Zaletah and Fey relations, although I suppose it is pretty specific. Of course, if you saw the DM note at the bottom of the section, it is pretty blatantly clear that if the DM wants, they can remove the fluff about Fey, and simply not give access to the feat.

The god seem very nice.
Thanks.

Lord_Gareth

2010-09-28, 01:03 AM

Do I NEED to have the starting ages/aging effects tables? Or the height-weight tables? Anything I put in them won't make any sense, and it's not like ANYONE ACTUALLY USES THEM.

......

.....

EVER.

DaTedinator

2010-09-28, 07:33 AM

Do I NEED to have the starting ages/aging effects tables? Or the height-weight tables? Anything I put in them won't make any sense, and it's not like ANYONE ACTUALLY USES THEM.

......

.....

EVER.

No! All you need is the name of the race and complete crunch, and a description of the race's physical and mental traits and characteristics. It doesn't even have to be a ridiculously full description, but, probably at least a paragraph for each, yeah?

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-09-28, 08:52 PM

Added stuff for the the Structure, Frame, and Wit Relicforged, as well as the rough details for the Revivification process. I'll add the remaining three's stuff latter when I'm feeling more cognizant.

Morph Bark

2010-10-10, 05:38 PM

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/25719/original/CHALLENGER_APPROACHING_2_by_Rarthus.jpg?1257653034 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9522407#post9522407)

Glee. :smallbiggrin:

Thrice Dead Cat

2010-10-10, 11:30 PM

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/25719/original/CHALLENGER_APPROACHING_2_by_Rarthus.jpg?1257653034 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9522407#post9522407)

Glee. :smallbiggrin:

You, sir, win. The contest is over: you won with just that post.:smallbiggrin:

In all seriousness, I'll take a look at your stuffs and throw around PEACHes... after I get my own work done.

Morph Bark

2010-10-11, 08:25 AM

You, sir, win. The contest is over: you won with just that post.:smallbiggrin:

In all seriousness, I'll take a look at your stuffs and throw around PEACHes... after I get my own work done.

As I said: glee. :smallbiggrin:

That would be nice indeed! You making a templated race is not a bad idea - dragonborn are great in their own right and warforged can work in that way fluff-wise. The picture creeps me out bigtime though.

zagan

2010-10-11, 09:37 AM

That's what I call style.

Now for a peach of the Unspirited:

The art is very good, I assume the the race was at least partially inspired by the image otherwise I have a hard time imagining such faithful representation.

The history is nice but a little complex for me, a race coming from a crossbreeding between one specific species of dragon and a specific kind of fey, they create some sort of civilazation, one of their member was crazy and in love witht he king but he reject her for some unspecified crime so she somehow got enough power on the spot to threatened their whole city, then for some reason the only way they though of stopping her is to send her in the far realm. There she somehow become a godess, come back to take revenge by tearing their soul apart. This time their god, never mentioned before, come to save them and they do it but because of the damage done to the soul they didn't reassemble them right and this mean that they lose part of the power they had before (also never mentioned). Finally their descendant also inherit this sould damage resulting in the current race.

So it could make a nice novel with lot more detail, but as it is I'm just left confused because I got the feeling that I miss something while reading.

Sorry if it sound harsh, it's interesting really and way better than my own origin of species story but not to my taste.

Anyway on to the rest, each section is well detailled and it give some good explanation for each thing.

The optional benefit for the familly name is original and interesting, I'm not sure on the balance betwen some of them, proficiency with some weapon or additional class skill could help qualify for feat or prc at no real cost so it might be too strong compared to other, I'm not sure.

Racial trait: (sorry if I'm harsh but the race seem really strong to me)

+2 Con, -2 Int.

No probleme there.

Fey (dragonblood, incarnum). Unspirited are fey with the dragonblood (Dragon Magic 4) and incarnum subtypes (Magic of Incarnum 169).

Great i don't have to spend a feat on dragontouch feat to gain acces to dragonblood only soulmeld !

Medium. As Medium creatures, Unspirited have no special bonus or penalties due to their size.
Unspirited base land speed is 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: An Unspirited can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

No problem here either.

Extra essentia: The essentia pool of an Unspirited increases by 1. If they have no essentia pool they gain one with 1 essentia in it. This bonus increases to 2 at 8 HD and to 3 at 15 HD.

Hum, yeah, that's strong, really strong the rarity of essentia is one of the balancing factor of incarnum to gain that much bonus essentia normally you need to spend at least 2 feat on it (bonus essentia and another incarnum feat).
I think it's too much.

Caste ability (Su): The Unspirited are divided into three castes, which are called the palechildes, the faytpriests and the drakeknights. The palechildes receive neither of the caste abilities listed below. The faytpriests have the fragmented focus ability. The drakeknights have the dragonfire initiation ability.

Interesting idea, let's see:

Fragmented focus: By investing 1 point of essentia in this ability, the Unspirited can use all mental skills (those based off Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma) untrained. Furthermore, they count as having a virtual minimum effective skill rank in all mental skills equal to (essentia invested -1).

This one is nice and again the equivalent of a feat, elf diletante (for elf only) from race of the wild.

Dragonfire initiation: By investing essentia into this ability, the Unspirited’s melee attacks and attacks with thrown weapons deal an amount of extra damage equal to (points invested)2. This extra damage is either acid, cold, electricity or fire damage, chosen at the time of investment. To change the energy type, all essentia invested in this ability must be removed first and may not be re-invested until a full turn has passed.

essentia squared in extra damage ? And you can chose the damage type, on a totemist this could be devastating.

Washed Skin: The skin of an Unspirited seems almost constantly washed over by a very thin layer of water, thanks to their lung dragon heritage no doubt. They take only half damage from non-magical fire.

Flavorfull.

Automatic Languages: Common and Draconic, Common and Sylvan, or Draconic and Sylvan.
Bonus Languages: Aquan, Auran, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnomish, Goblin, Ignan, Sylvan, Terran. The Unspirited usually have at least one person in the family who keeps contact with their distant fey relatives and for that reason also often come into contact with beings of elemental descent. Unspirited also often live in societies where another humanoid race is prevalent and they adopt their language, if they find themselves able to.

Nice.

Favored Class: Totemist. Most Unspirited try to find a stronger bond to their souls and their hardy nature allows them to do so easily as Totemists, despite it being more common among tribal races. (One could always ‘fix’ this by making Unspirited Totemists automatically literate, since they have that different, more educational background.)

Rarelly used but synergised really well. Honestly i think the rest is too strong you gain the equivalent of a least 3 to 4 feat plus a bonus to an essential incarnum ability score. While I would love to play a race I like that I think few DM would allow it at LA 0.

Morph Bark

2010-10-11, 10:37 AM

That's what I call style.

Now for a peach of the Unspirited:

The art is very good, I assume the the race was at least partially inspired by the image otherwise I have a hard time imagining such faithful representation.

Heh, thanks. To be honest, I had two basic ideas before starting, the other being a plant race (somehow linked to my Monster Competition entry, possibly), but the basic idea of a dragonblooded fey race won out. I searched for a picture and it was just perfect. Due to her lung dragon-like appearance I felt the need to specify that heritage (just like how Silverbrow humans are specifically descended from silver dragons).

The history is nice but a little complex for me, a race coming from a crossbreeding between one specific species of dragon and a specific kind of fey, they create some sort of civilazation, one of their member was crazy and in love witht he king but he reject her for some unspecified crime so she somehow got enough power on the spot to threatened their whole city, then for some reason the only way they though of stopping her is to send her in the far realm. There she somehow become a godess, come back to take revenge by tearing their soul apart. This time their god, never mentioned before, come to save them and they do it but because of the damage done to the soul they didn't reassemble them right and this mean that they lose part of the power they had before (also never mentioned). Finally their descendant also inherit this sould damage resulting in the current race.

So it could make a nice novel with lot more detail, but as it is I'm just left confused because I got the feeling that I miss something while reading.

Sorry if it sound harsh, it's interesting really and way better than my own origin of species story but not to my taste.

Yeah, it's a bit haphazardly written, and probably way too long... I honestly wrote this header/history part as the last part of the entire thing, so I guess I ended up trying to cram in reasons behind everything. I'll see if I can try make it sound clearer and better and perhaps shorter, but that is sadly not my forte.

'sfine if it is not to your taste of course, we all differ in that. The silthilar are not to my taste at all, yet you seem to have made a good link with their lesser version.

The optional benefit for the familly name is original and interesting, I'm not sure on the balance betwen some of them, proficiency with some weapon or additional class skill could help qualify for feat or prc at no real cost so it might be too strong compared to other, I'm not sure.

Some of them might be strong, yeah... I tried to make it mostly flavourful, like elvish racial proficiencies, which aren't that strong, but fit their culture.

I hope that in the end I won't be cracked down on because of these family bonuses and penalties, because I just meant them to add crunch ties to flavour for each, purely optional, nothing more.

Great i don't have to spend a feat on dragontouch feat to gain acces to dragonblood only soulmeld !

Bonus points, am I right? :smallwink:

(Though I honestly did not think about that... talk about lucky coincedence!)

Hum, yeah, that's strong, really strong the rarity of essentia is one of the balancing factor of incarnum to gain that much bonus essentia normally you need to spend at least 2 feat on it (bonus essentia and another incarnum feat).
I think it's too much.

I first had it non-scaling, with just 1 at first level. Azurin get 1 essentia in place of bonus skill points, and I figured a little extra essentia at higher levels wouldn't be so bad, plus there are too few scaling racial abilities... should I take out the second and third essentia you get at 8 HD and 15 HD?

Interesting idea, let's see:

This one is nice and again the equivalent of a feat, elf diletante (for elf only) from race of the wild.

essentia squared in extra damage ? And you can chose the damage type, on a totemist this could be devastating.

Yeap, I figured it would be interesting to give a choice in racial abilities, since - what, only the dragonborn get that? Blasphemous. More racial choices!

I squared the damage because 1 or 2 points of extra damage at level 1 seemed perfectly fine, but at high levels, 1*essentia or 2*essentia would be at 8 bonus points of damage per strike, which is very little... but essentia squared for a maximum of 16 at high levels seemed great. With a lot of attacks, I see your point though. I'll bring that back to 2*essentia.

Rarelly used but synergised really well. Honestly i think the rest is too strong you gain the equivalent of a least 3 to 4 feat plus a bonus to an essential incarnum ability score. While I would love to play a race I like that I think few DM would allow it at LA 0.

If I made essentia non-scaling and bring down Dragonfire Initiation (the latter I am doing anyway, like right now), would it be more in line of 2 feats (or 2 1/2)? I think that is about the strength of most human-equivalent races.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the PEACH, zagan! I appreciate it a lot. :smallsmile:

Tomorrow I will look into giving PEACHes myself, though perhaps for Thrice Dead Cat I should wait until he's done.

zagan

2010-10-11, 10:51 AM

Heh, thanks. To be honest, I had two basic ideas before starting, the other being a plant race (somehow linked to my Monster Competition entry, possibly), but the basic idea of a dragonblooded fey race won out. I searched for a picture and it was just perfect. Due to her lung dragon-like appearance I felt the need to specify that heritage (just like how Silverbrow humans are specifically descended from silver dragons).

Okay.

Yeah, it's a bit haphazardly written, and probably way too long... I honestly wrote this header/history part as the last part of the entire thing, so I guess I ended up trying to cram in reasons behind everything. I'll see if I can try make it sound clearer and better and perhaps shorter, but that is sadly not my forte.

Simplifying it a little should be enough.

'sfine if it is not to your taste of course, we all differ in that. The silthilar are not to my taste at all, yet you seem to have made a good link with their lesser version.

Thanks.

Some of them might be strong, yeah... I tried to make it mostly flavourful, like elvish racial proficiencies, which aren't that strong, but fit their culture.

I hope that in the end I won't be cracked down on because of these family bonuses and penalties, because I just meant them to add crunch ties to flavour for each, purely optional, nothing more.

As it's optional I don't think anyone will penalise you for it.

Bonus points, am I right? :smallwink:

(Though I honestly did not think about that... talk about lucky coincedence!)

I though it was deliberate because unless it clash with my backstory I always try to take dragontouch on my incarnum user just for those soulmeld but apart from a little more option it's not too powerfull.

I first had it non-scaling, with just 1 at first level. Azurin get 1 essentia in place of bonus skill points, and I figured a little extra essentia at higher levels wouldn't be so bad, plus there are too few scaling racial abilities... should I take out the second and third essentia you get at 8 HD and 15 HD?

If the race only give that it could work but with caste abilty only 1 bonus essentia is enough.

Yeap, I figured it would be interesting to give a choice in racial abilities, since - what, only the dragonborn get that? Blasphemous. More racial choices!

My first race idea was supposed to have racial choice too but I couldn't make it work and your right it's very rare dragonborn and hellbred only I believe.

I squared the damage because 1 or 2 points of extra damage at level 1 seemed perfectly fine, but at high levels, 1*essentia or 2*essentia would be at 8 bonus points of damage per strike, which is very little... but essentia squared for a maximum of 16 at high levels seemed great. With a lot of attacks, I see your point though. I'll bring that back to 2*essentia.

2*essentia is enough it come to a respectable +8 customizable damage, usefull against enemy with vulnerability and still good against other enemy. At 16 it was comparable with craven the famous rogue feat that grant +20 extra damage.

If I made essentia non-scaling and bring down Dragonfire Initiation (the latter I am doing anyway, like right now), would it be more in line of 2 feats (or 2 1/2)? I think that is about the strength of most human-equivalent races.

It should be fine, a little strong but specialized so it work.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the PEACH, zagan! I appreciate it a lot. :smallsmile:

My pleasure. :smallsmile:

Tomorrow I will look into giving PEACHes myself, though perhaps for Thrice Dead Cat I should wait until he's done.

Thanks in advance, i'm also waiting for thrice to finish before peaching the reforged myself.

Terumitsu

2010-10-11, 12:06 PM

zagan

2010-10-11, 12:14 PM

Oooh. This looks interesting.

I've got an idea for this but I wonder... Would it be permissable to do a sort of 'alien' race or some such? I mean, as long as it uses the standard 3.5 crunch setup, it would be fine to use even if it wasn't strictly DnD (Was thinking this up for D20 Modern actually)?

The crunch I have works for either as it is 3.5 standard anyway... But yes, I suppose this would be fine?

Well, Detedinator got the final word but i think it should be fine as long as the crunch is usable without needing to change it. Perhaps adding a section about changing the fluff for a more fantasy setting just in case.

zagan

2010-10-15, 10:03 AM

Peach for the Lissoan:

Fluff: Interesting and well detailed i only have two small issue:
-the description is nice but it lack any detail on general shape, I assume they are humanoid but a few word on that would be nice.
-You said that after a competition betwen monastery the two winner would marry, make sense, but why would the two loser marry too ?

Crunch:
-A +4 to any attribute is pretty rare but you do give two -2 and one of them is for con so it's probably alright. It's hard to judge.
-Slight build is a nice ability anf it fit.
-Invertebrate fit perfectly and won't probably come up often so it's not a problem.
-Low Structural Integrity: A drawback, might matter at low level but it's not too much of an handicap.
-Stunning Susceptibility; This one is bigger, stunning is relatively common and it could be become a real drag.
-Weapon Familiarity: You need to give the source of the braid blade, dragon mag I believe ? Also why the fluff doesn't mention it.
-skill bonus and speak language: Thematically fitting but perhaps redudant with the +4 dex for some of them.
-Favored class monk: Well it fit the fluff but I think they make better rogue, your choice.

It's not a bad race, probably wouldn't play it personally but still nice.

Now for the feat:

Lissoan Grappler [Fighter, Lissoan]
Training the muscles in your arms and legs you are able to crush your grappled foes like a python.
Prerequisites: Lissoan, Muscle Isolations (Arms and Legs), BAB +1.
Benefit: You gain the Constrict ability, dealing 1d4 + Str bonus non-lethal damage on a successful grapple.
Special: If you also have monk unarmed strike damage, you instead deal damage with your Constrict ability as a monk 2 levels higher than your current monk class level.

Costly feat wise but very nice for a grappler.

Lissoan Water Kata [Fighter, Lissoan]
Your defensive training has left you less susceptible to bludgeoning forces and falls.
Prerequisites: Lissoan, Combat Expertise, Toughness.
Benefit: You gain a racial damage reduction versus bludgeoning weapons of 2, or your damage reduction versus bludgeoning weapons increases by 2. You also suffer -1 point of damage per die from falls.

Pretty weak for the cost of three feat, remove combat expertise or toughness and it's enough. Also you might want to offer the choice toughness or improve toughness if you keep it.

Muscle Isolations, Arms [Lissoan]
You have trained the muscles in your arms to move in every direction and to hold unusual positions and angles.
Prerequisite: Lissoan, BAB +3, Disable Device 5 ranks, Craft (any) 5 ranks.
Benefit: You are considered ambidextrous, and do not suffer off-hand penalties. You gain a +1 racial bonus to Disable Device and all Craft checks.
Note: This feat does not grant any increased proficiency in wielding two weapons at once; the Two-Weapon Fighting feat is still required to gain those attack modifiers.

I don't understand this one a little more detail ?

Muscle Isolations, Face [Lissoan]
You have trained the muscles in your face and throat to move in every direction and to hold unusual positions and angles.
Prerequisite: Lissoan, Disguise 5 ranks, Listen 5 ranks, Perform (Sing) 5 ranks.
Benefit: +1 racial bonus to Disguise, Listen, and Perform (Sing) checks. You can drink a potion as a move-equivalent action (rather than a standard action; this still provokes attacks of opportunity).

This one is nice.

Muscle Isolations, Feet [Lissoan]
You have trained the muscles in your feet to move in every direction and to hold unusual potions and angles.
Prerequisite: Lissoan, Balance 5 ranks, Climb 5 ranks, Move Silently 5 ranks.
Benefit: +1 racial bonus to Balance, Climb, and Move Silently checks. You can pick up small or smaller items with your toes, allowing you to perform the ‘pick up an item’ action without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Situational but interesting.

Muscle Isolations, Hands [Lissoan]
You have trained the muscles in your hands to move in every direction and to hold unusual positions and angles.
Prerequisite: Lissoan, Forgery 5 ranks, Open Lock 5 ranks, and Sleight of Hand 5 ranks.
Benefit: +1 racial bonus to Forgery, Open Lock, and Sleight of Hand checks. +1 competence bonus to resist being disarmed. +1 competence bonus to catch items.

A bonus to catch an item ? I don't remember any rule about thing like that.

Muscle Isolations, Legs [Fighter, Lissoan]
You have trained the muscles in your legs to move in every direction and to hold unusual positions and angles.
Prerequisite: Lissoan, BAB +3, Jump 5 ranks, Improved Grapple.
Benefit: +1 racial bonus to Jump checks, and can run at x4 your normal movement rate. You may make unarmed attacks with your legs, allowing you to attack even with both hands full. Finally, you also gain a +1 racial bonus to grapple checks, as your legs now act as a second set of arms.
Normal: Lissoa are able only to run at x3 their normal movement rate.

I'm not sure that the option to attack with your leg is useful because for unarmed strike don't need a hand you can do it with any part of your body already.

Muscle Isolations Master [Lissoan]
You are a master of muscle manipulation.
Prerequisite: Lissoan, Muscle Isolations (Hands, Feet, Legs, Arms, Torso, and Face), 8 ranks in all prerequisite skills for Muscle Isolations feats.
Benefit: You gain an additional +1 racial bonus to all skills affected by your Muscle Isolations feats. You gain an additional +1 racial bonus to resist being disarmed or bull rushed and to catch items. You gain an additional +1 racial bonus to Bluff checks to feint in combat.

A feat that require 6 prereqs feat that only give a +1 bonus to a few skill is worthless you need more than that to make it worthwile because that's a feat that can only be taken at level 18 if you don't have flaw or source of other bonus feat.

Muscle Isolations, Torso [Lissoan]
You have trained the muscles in your torso to move in every direction and to hold unusual positions and angles.
Prerequisite: Lissoan, Ride 5 ranks, Escape Artist 5 ranks, Tumble 5 ranks.
Benefit: +1 racial bonus to Ride, Escape Artist, and Tumble checks. +1 competence bonus to resist bull rush attempts. You treat your Strength score as only 3 points lower in regards to determining carrying capacity.

Not great you could get ride of the carrying capacity penality completely and it would still be balanced.

Some good idea for these feat but most need a little something more to make them worthwile.