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rubycona
2010-05-02, 02:50 PM
Hey, all. I'm wanting to build a metamagic-crazy pyromaniac (also slightly insane) high level caster (haven't decided yet, somewhere between 18th and 24th level straight wizard) as a major NPC player in my campaign world.

The players Have met him, and I kind of BS'd my way through a couple of his spells, but now that he's actively involved, I'm hoping to actually build him.

I do have access to all the books, we're playing Pathfinder with 3.5 books allowed in, and I want this guy to be capable. Not retardedly powerful, he needs to be surpassable by the players when the time comes, but he's the single largest threat to the nation. (Easy enough for an epic or near-epic wizard to be, I know :P)

Anyway, so I'm wanting him to be metamagic focused, and he'll be whatever level he needs to be to get the concept in place, so no worries about that. I'm only intimately familiar with Core feats, and I'm hoping you guys can point me in the direction of other metamagic-related feats, preferably the kind that make metamagic penalties less, like Arcane Thesis. I vaguely remember some other mentions of metamagic-aiding feats... which doesn't really help me find them >.>

Also any interesting/useful actual metamagics (l'll have to remember where the Sudden Metamagics were... PHB2, I think?) would be great. The book name to look through is the most useful bit of info.

Thanks so much for your help!

absolmorph
2010-05-02, 03:03 PM
Pick a fire spell, get Arcane Thesis for that spell.
Earth Sense, Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, Maximize Spell and Easy Metamagic are all good feats to grab.
You can grab most of those with the wizard bonus feats, I think.
I recommend Orb of Fire for his Arcane Thesis.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, does being a barbarian mean that I should start raging? I might need to work on my ranting skills...

Escheton
2010-05-02, 03:07 PM
grab a couple of fell's and mod the hell outta powerword pain and thunderclap

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 03:12 PM
Halruaan Elder or Incantatrix are pretty much the PrCs for a metamagic hurling madman.

Tricks I use:
Combust makes an amazing metamagick seed.
Practical Metamagic\Easy Metamagic and Arcane Thesis are bread and butter.
It's even better thanks to empowered spell shards in the MiC.
Sanctum Spell is a must for MM wielders.
My favorite MM is probably ocular spell.
Celerity + Favor Of the Martyr is boss.
Always Have An Orb Spell.
Make sure you have a solid dispelling option. I recommend snagging the Dispelling cord, also MiC.

Eldariel
2010-05-02, 03:15 PM
Metamagic Reducers:
Practical Metamagic [RoD; requires Dragonblood]
Easy Metamagic [DR325]
Metamagic School Focus [CM]
Arcane Thesis [PHBII; one spell only] (great for single-spell focus)

PrCs: (yes, I know you said Wizard 20, but this is just for completeness's sake)
Recaster [RoE] (gets some free Metamagic)
Incantatrix [PGTF]
Dweomerkeeper [CD Web Enhancement] (warning: Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper are both broken; I'm not mentioning Tainted Scholar for the same reason)

Feats:
Residual Magic [CM; you can cast a spell after casting a metamagicked spell with the same metamagic applied to it for no cost! Economic as all hell]
Sudden Maximize [CA; Great with above]
Sudden Empower [CA]
Split Ray [CA; most economic offensive Metamagic ever, but only works on Rays]
Energy Admixture [CA; awesome, but only works on energy spells]
Twin Spell [CA; no frills, boom boom at +4]
Empower Spell [PHB; more efficient than Maximize Spell]
Fell Drain [LM; great for quickened low-level spammables for 1 negative level each; don't use on higher level spells as the effect doesn't scale]
Chain Spell [CA; negative levels for everybody!]
Born of Three Thunders [CA; free, good, but Dazes you - pick Quick Recovery [Lords of Madness] or cast Favor of the Martyr [Pal 4 SC spell] and you're fine]

Note that Arcane Thesis can theoretically apply metamagic with negative adjustment thus dropping the total level of the spell thus making 0-cost metamagic like Born of Three Thunders, Invisible Spell [Cityscape] and Black Lore of Moil [Complete Arcane] very useful...but that's a tad cheesy.

Sanctum Spell [CA] can do sick stuff...but I personally avoid it if possible 'cause it's a bit too good for...y'know, existing.


EDIT: Ninja'd by Roc.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 03:16 PM
Man, I always forget to mention residual in cases like this. Good-on-ya, Eldariel. Residual is extremely good.

rubycona
2010-05-02, 03:37 PM
Sweet. Thanks for all the info!

Um, I looked up Sanctum Spell, and while it looks awesomely useful in the right circumstances, if you're not in your sanctum, you actually get a bit nerfed. Not many feats Reduce your abilty in any facet. So it's great for a defender, but for a wizard that's often out and about, it's actually a really bad idea to take it, isn't it? 'Cause, it says that while in your Sanctum, your spell level gets boosted by one above normal, but if you're Not in your sanctum, "it has an effective spell level one level lower than normal."

So I definitely hesitate with that one, but the others definitely look promising. Thanks again :)

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 03:40 PM
Let us approach this in a Socratic fashion.
What does sanctum spell lower when you are not in your sanctum?

Prodan
2010-05-02, 03:42 PM
The love of all that is good and holy?

absolmorph
2010-05-02, 03:46 PM
Let us approach this in a Socratic fashion.
What does sanctum spell lower when you are not in your sanctum?
Effective spell level and caster level.

rubycona
2010-05-02, 03:51 PM
Effective spell level and caster level.

On all spells, no less, if I read that right, isn't it? The exact same benefit you get for Having the sanctum spell is completely reversed when not in the sanctum.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-02, 03:55 PM
I'd throw Ultimate Magus into the metamagic-focused PrCs.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 03:56 PM
On all spells, no less, if I read that right, isn't it? The exact same benefit you get for Having the sanctum spell is completely reversed when not in the sanctum.

And what do metamagics raise? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoMadFromTheRevelation)

erikun
2010-05-02, 04:11 PM
Searing Spell (Sandstorm) is really nice for fire spells, ignoring resistance and dealing half damage against creatures otherwise immune. You can also see it here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050203a). (Scroll down a bit.) Fiery Burst (Complete Mage) is a reserve feat, not metamagic, but gives you 9d6 mini-fireballs all day long.

Ultimate Magus (prestige class) requires giving up at least two wizard levels, but you can spend the spell slots on the secondary class to power metamagic. Divine Metamagic (feat) requires Turn Undead from somewhere, but can convert turn attempts into instant metamagic.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-02, 04:15 PM
Divine Metamagic (feat) requires Turn Undead from somewhere, but can convert turn attempts into instant metamagic.

And also only works on divine spells, so it's useless for straight wizard.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 04:23 PM
And also only works on divine spells, so it's useless for straight wizard.

+1.
This is an errata, if I remember, so it's not as known as it ought to be.

Mongoose87
2010-05-02, 04:25 PM
And what do metamagics raise? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoMadFromTheRevelation)

Oh my God... this feels like cheating.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-02, 04:25 PM
And what do metamagics raise?

The level of the slot used to cast the spell, not the effective level. And since a Sanctum Spell uses a slot of the spells normal level, it does nothing to help MM unless I'm reading it wrong or missing some very broken cheese here.

Gaiyamato
2010-05-02, 04:57 PM
Also check out the Metaphysical Spellshaper Prc in the Book of Erotic Fantasy.
It has the samily Metamagic reducing ability of the Incantatrix, but is only 3 levels long.
:smallwink:

Combine it with the feats listed above and Incantatrix for your own amusement.

Also if your NPC is evil check out spells such as Stop Heart and metamagic such as Fell Animate... again.. for amusement.

Prodan
2010-05-02, 05:00 PM
Also check out the Metaphysical Spellshaper Prc in the Book of Erotic Fantasy.
It has the samily Metamagic reducing ability of the Incantatrix, but is only 3 levels long.
:smallwink:

But don't worry, it's much longer in other ways.

tyckspoon
2010-05-02, 05:07 PM
Double checking the trick right now, sec.

I don't think it works for hard-applied metamagics, since Sanctum Spell leaves it actually occupying the same slot it did before, but it does work for things that only care about effective spell level. You can use Sanctum Spell to, for example, make a Sanctum Spell'd wand of a 5th level spell, use a Minor Metamagic Rod on a 4th level spell, and, most abusively, make recursive Arcane Fusions that contain a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion as the 4th level spell.

Mongoose87
2010-05-02, 05:09 PM
But don't worry, it's much longer in other ways.

Actually, it's not. It's also completely unrelated to the rest of the book.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 05:10 PM
I don't think it works for hard-applied metamagics, since Sanctum Spell leaves it actually occupying the same slot it did before, but it does work for things that only care about effective spell level. You can use Sanctum Spell to, for example, make a Sanctum Spell'd wand of a 5th level spell, use a Minor Metamagic Rod on a 4th level spell, and, most abusively, make recursive Arcane Fusions that contain a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion as the 4th level spell.

All of these are what I was getting at originally, but...
Here's the most unfortunate part. Take a look at the exact wording of sanctum spell:

"A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level."

Effects canonically apply in the most beneficial order.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-02, 05:10 PM
I don't think it works for hard-applied metamagics, since Sanctum Spell leaves it actually occupying the same slot it did before, but it does work for things that only care about effective spell level. You can use Sanctum Spell to, for example, make a Sanctum Spell'd wand of a 5th level spell, use a Minor Metamagic Rod on a 4th level spell, and, most abusively, make recursive Arcane Fusions that contain a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion as the 4th level spell.

There it is. I knew there was some Gouda in here somewhere.

Prodan
2010-05-02, 05:15 PM
There it is. I knew there was some Gouda in here somewhere.

Errata nerfed that usage.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 05:17 PM
Errata nerfed that usage.

There's no errata for it in the Complete Arcane errata.

Prodan
2010-05-02, 05:20 PM
I swear I've heard something about Sanctum Spell for that particular use...

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 05:21 PM
I swear I've heard something about Sanctum Spell for that particular use...

Yes. The ToS Ban list. :)
I try to kill my own tricks first.

tyckspoon
2010-05-02, 05:22 PM
All of these are what I was getting at originally, but...
Here's the most unfortunate part. Take a look at the exact wording of sanctum spell:

"A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level."

Effects canonically apply in the most beneficial order.

Could you clarify that a bit? I don't see how that makes any difference to what I said- it doesn't work on things that specify spell slot levels, which are not reduced by Sanctum, but it does work for things that only refer to the general spell level, which is. All the examples I mentioned are of the latter kind.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 05:24 PM
Right, so, sit down and say...

Empowered Sanctum Spell Magic Missile.
3rd level slot, 0th level spell.

Sanctum spell, unfortunately, is listed as a metamagic. This means you can control the ordering of application.

Sanctum Spell Empowered Magic Missile.
"A Slot of the spell's normal level", 0th level spell.

While lacking in parsimony, it is true that technically, metamagicks do not raise a spell's level.

tyckspoon
2010-05-02, 05:32 PM
Ah, I thought that might be it.. I was just wondering because I don't think I've ever seen somebody put forth that claim, as the same wording is used in +0 metamagics like Energy Substitution and Invisible Spell. There's an awful lot optimization deep magic that could be avoided if that argument was taken seriously. Personally, I believe when metamagic is involved 'normal' refers to whatever changes have been made by the metamagics unless specifically not included, although I don't know if any RAW source has ever felt the need to address that issue.

Doc Roc
2010-05-02, 05:35 PM
Ah, I thought that might be it.. I was just wondering because I don't think I've ever seen somebody put forth that claim, as the same wording is used in +0 metamagics like Energy Substitution and Invisible Spell. There's an awful lot optimization deep magic that could be avoided if that argument was taken seriously. Personally, I believe when metamagic is involved 'normal' refers to whatever changes have been made by the metamagics unless specifically not included, although I don't know if any RAW source has ever felt the need to address that issue.

I think it is fundamentally simpler to just go ahead and admit that there is not really a good reading of sanctum spell as it is, and rewrite it so it does Just One Good Thing, without some of the weird modal interactions. Even the ToS Fix we use feels a little puny. I did flag this with a warning. :)

rubycona
2010-05-02, 11:11 PM
Ok, so I see that Sanctum Spell gives you the ability to do cool stuff if you use it right. (Though, it actually says, "slot of the spell’s normal level, modified by any other metamagic feats" which, to me, pretty clearly eliminates That usage)

Buuuut... that doesn't change the problem that if you're Not actively using it in these ways, and you're away from the sanctum, say, adventuring, then it hurts you. Right? Because, let's say, my opponent has a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, and I cast a 4th level spell... normally, it'd penetrate just fine, but because I took this feat, and because I'm away from home, my spell fails.

Mind you, the wording's a bit unclear to me on how this really helps in most regards, even in the Sanctum, but the fact that it's obviously supposed to be a good thing to have the level increased, and it Decreases it away from home seems... well, bad. >.>

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-02, 11:35 PM
but the fact that it's obviously supposed to be a good thing to have the level increased, and it Decreases it away from home seems... well, bad. >.>

So when you're not planning on being in your sanctum, don't prepare sanctum spells.

obnoxious
sig

Sophismata
2010-05-03, 12:46 AM
You can use Sanctum Spell to, for example, make a Sanctum Spell'd wand of a 5th level spell
Maybe...


use a Minor Metamagic Rod on a 4th level spell, and, most abusively, make recursive Arcane Fusions that contain a Sanctum Spell Arcane Fusion as the 4th level spell.
Yes, and yes.


The problem with crafting, is that there is only one specific reference to allowing metamagic where doing so:

Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

Now, all examples of metamagic used in crafting fit this quote exactly, because they're all Heightened Spell. But, choosing to believe that this does not disqualify other metamagics (and assuming that if it did, there would damn well be a rule along the lines of, "Only Heightened Spell may be used in crafting items"), we need to look at what the quote means.

There are two possibilities (aside from that just mentioned, ie only Heighten may be used when crafting).

EITHER:

The final spell slot taken up by metamagic feats causes the caster to craft the item at a higher spell level then normal,

OR

That a caster may place spells in items at a higher level than normal, should he choose to include Heighten Spell or a similar metamagic when crafting.


What reading do people believe is correct? Now that I think about it, this is very similar to the Psionic Item Creation rules regarding augmentation.




On the topic itself, make sure that your fire wizard has Searing Spell (from Sandstorm). It is reasonable to expect the PC's to acquire Fire Immunity and/or resistance, and Searing Spell makes sure that the pyromaniac is still a threat. Orb of Fire is a good thing to specialise in, like so:

Orb of Fire (4th level spell)
Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire) (feat at 9th level)
Metamagic School Focus (Conjuration)
Eschew Materials
Searing Spell
Enervate Spell
Easy Metamagic (Enervate Spell)
Empower Spell
Easy Metamagic (Empower Spell)
Radiant Spell
Easy Metamagic (Radiant Spell)
Twin Spell

Eschewed Searing Empowered Enervated Radiant Twin Orb of Fire (5th level slot)

2 x (15d6 x 1.5 x 1.5) fire damage, average 236.25 fire damage (if both orbs hit).
Fire Immunity (players should be expected to have this) brings it to 118.125 average fire damage.

In addition, each orb that hits requires a Fort save against daze (one round), and a Will save against blind (four rounds).

There are defences against this, of course, that I'd expect the PC's to use, like the ray deflection spell (which applies to all touch attacks IIRC). Psions have even better defences, and can minimise the damage (Dampen) to a measly 33 fire.

If your wizard is an Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper, you get another -1 level to all metamagic and can drop all those Easy Metamagic feats (or keep them, and have any fire spell the wizard ever casts be automatically Empowered, Enervated and Radiant).

As an 18th - 24th level encounter, I'd expect the PC's to have enough health to survive an Orb provided they've (wisely) opted for Fire Immunity. You can increase the damage much more, but you'll wander into instagib territory against even a partially prepared party.

Eldariel
2010-05-03, 12:07 PM
As an 18th - 24th level encounter, I'd expect the PC's to have enough health to survive an Orb provided they've (wisely) opted for Fire Immunity. You can increase the damage much more, but you'll wander into instagib territory against even a partially prepared party.

Between Revivifies, Last Breaths and similars, death isn't all that frightening on those levels anymore. And yeah, definitely picking e.g. Energy Admixture would increase the efficiency of the whole. Admixtured Twin is already 210 alone. Add Maximize for 360. As an example.

Obviously that's still not gonna kill a half-way prepared high-level character (Wizards by 20 can easily have ~190 HP and a bunch of Temp HP and they're the lowest HP characters - and their principal defenses involve not being hit, anyways), but it's decent damage even through Immunity.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-05-03, 02:40 PM
Doc Roc, I love metamagics, but I must confess that I am utterly uninterested in heighten and sanctum spell abuse :smallsigh:

Also I'm not sure we can interpret the 'same level as' clause to have global scope. RAI its clearly supposed to be local. :smalltongue:

rubycona
2010-05-03, 02:44 PM
So when you're not planning on being in your sanctum, don't prepare sanctum spells.

obnoxious
sig

I feel so incredibly, incredibly retarded, btw. For some reason (presently unknown to me) it read to me as, all spells you cast ever, get this bonus if in your sanctum, and get this penalty if not in your sanctum. I looked at it like a passive ability instead of applied like a metamagic. Yeah. Go me XD

Thanks, everyone, for your help with this stuff! That Orb of Fire craziness is... well, crazy :P It's nice. He's actually an ally of the party *chuckles* So, I'm less concerned about the party being directly able to take him, unless they decide to piss him off. Not likely, really... how many characters with decent intelligence and knowledge would willingly aggravate a person with a reputation for dropping Meteor Swarms when he's pissed?

I'm looking forward to finishing building this guy now ^-^ Thanks again!

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-03, 07:36 PM
He's a flaming pyro, eh? His familiar should be a boa (http://cmtagency.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/feather-boa.jpg), and he should be flaming (http://www.headinjurytheater.com/images/d&d%20beasts%20%20senmurv%20gay%20pride.jpg). See how long it takes for your players to get the joke.


Ok, so I see that Sanctum Spell gives you the ability to do cool stuff if you use it right. (Though, it actually says, "slot of the spell’s normal level, modified by any other metamagic feats" which, to me, pretty clearly eliminates That usage)

Buuuut... that doesn't change the problem that if you're Not actively using it in these ways, and you're away from the sanctum, say, adventuring, then it hurts you. Right? Because, let's say, my opponent has a Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, and I cast a 4th level spell... normally, it'd penetrate just fine, but because I took this feat, and because I'm away from home, my spell fails.

Mind you, the wording's a bit unclear to me on how this really helps in most regards, even in the Sanctum, but the fact that it's obviously supposed to be a good thing to have the level increased, and it Decreases it away from home seems... well, bad. >.>Simple (if cheesy) solution: planar bind or simulacrum a nightmare (the My Little Hellpony one). Have it cast astral projection on you while you're in your sanctum, and leave it to guard your body. Now you can plane shift yourself to wherever it is you want to go, and you can now adventure while simultaneously residing in your well-guarded sanctum.

Plus, if you die, you can just kick back, have a bit of a rest, re-prep your spells, and do it all over again later. This way you can make him a bit weaker, and still be a recurring enemy.

demidracolich
2010-05-03, 08:02 PM
I know fell drain has been mentioned but combined with force missile mage (you can change the magic missile damage to fire). It virutally guarantees enemies without immunities getting negative levels.