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The Rabbler
2010-05-02, 05:05 PM
in case no one remembers my last thread about this group:

they're pretty much anti-optimization and get angry at me for using self-nerfed ToB characters.

anyway. last night we had one of our worse players try and DM for us. he built an adventure that he thought would be too easy. our average level is 6. in our party we have:
me, a crusader 4/warblade 2 with a wrathful healing 2h and a buckler. no tripping.
a factotum 5, just started playing the class.
a warmage 5/incantrix 2, the closest thing we have to an optimized character.
a wizard 5/candlecaster 1, goblin who throws candles. they're like scrolls and he's effectively a grenadier.

we took on:
3 gibbering mouthers
3 6-armed apes (I forget the name)
3 ettins
52 level 5 fighters
13 level 6 fighters.

in the first encounter. after that, we were pretty much spent and we ran away to rest up. there are supposed to be another 3 encounters.

we got 24,400 xp each from this encounter. we're suddenly level 10-11.

now. the encounter, regardless of how crazy difficult it was for us, is now rediculously easy. how should our DM fix this?

I'm thinking he should make everything else much stronger (including the level 10 BBEG fighter (wasn't very well thought-out)). thoughts?

Prodan
2010-05-02, 05:06 PM
Wow, that's some pretty... unique DMing.

Can't you not advance more than one level at a time?

Seatbelt
2010-05-02, 05:07 PM
The quick and dirty solution is that level-up doesn't work that way. You gained enough XP from that encounter to put you 1 XP away from level 8, and no more.

Of course this fails to address the other problems. But it is a solution to the immediate "We're too high level" issue.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-02, 05:09 PM
I'm curious as to how your DM didn't just destroy you with superior action economy. Even if your wizard can incapacitate 10 people with a single spell, he's still got mobs of people left to kill you.

Reynard
2010-05-02, 05:18 PM
Maybe he screwed up in more ways than encounter creation.

How open was the battlemap, i.e. did you take advantage of chokepoints to only face two or three melee enemies at a time?

If so, did he keep funneling them into the obvious death trap?

Did he have them act intelligently?

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-02, 05:18 PM
This immediately came to mind. (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1111)

I play with DM's like that all the time. We end up fighting a legion of soldiers and win by the skin of our teeth each time. We have always done it to where you get a set amount of experience for being successful with the encounter rather than doing entirely based on experience per monster killed. This stops the players from rampaging through the wood like Belkar after that extra piece of XP.

All he has to do, providing the group is enjoying the combat heavy campaign, is to either give experience for winning or do another system that we have done before: "you guys leveled to 8." That system doesn't use experience and it keeps everyone at the same level. The problem is that if players are spending exp for spells or making magic items it becomes impossible or difficult to track.

The Rabbler
2010-05-02, 05:31 PM
well, it wasn't the best of all maps. at the begining there was a 10' wide walkway where all of the monsters sauntered down. beyond that was a wide open area of chaos.

the monsters got vaporized in one action by the warmage. in fact, he vaporized a lot of stuff.

but the real kicker was that none of us took damage. well, I did, but I healed it back immediately.


I wasn't aware that you could only gain one level at a time. that'll really dampen the factotum's day. he was hoping to catch up to the group.

oh, and what do we do about loot? just roll a ton? or make it one giant ECL roll and get like 4 major items?

EDIT: MOAR!



"you guys leveled to 8." That system doesn't use experience and it keeps everyone at the same level. The problem is that if players are spending exp for spells or making magic items it becomes impossible or difficult to track.


this was our last system. but it doesn't work very well now that one of our characters is literally designed around scrolls (the candles are scrolls).

Calmar
2010-05-02, 05:58 PM
http://www.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/5672/Power-leveling.jpg

:smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-05-02, 06:00 PM
The rules prevent gaining more than one level worth of XP at once anyways so you're good to go; I think you'll get half-way through the next level or so.

jindra34
2010-05-02, 06:06 PM
The rules prevent gaining more than one level worth of XP at once anyways so you're good to go; I think you'll get half-way through the next level or so.

1 xp short if you would gain multiple.

The Rabbler
2010-05-02, 06:17 PM
1 xp short if you would gain multiple.

... you have no idea how sad this made me.

there's nothing about nerfing loot based on level, though, right? I want a pile of loot from that.

Reynard
2010-05-02, 06:28 PM
If your DM, no matter how useless, says you're now at levels 10-11, you're now levels 10-11.

The Rabbler
2010-05-02, 06:33 PM
If your DM, no matter how useless, says you're now at levels 10-11, you're now levels 10-11.

unfortunately, he never actually said that we were levels 10-11. we gained enough XP for us to be levels 10-11, but I wasn't aware of that little factoid that limits us from leveling multiple times.

pffh
2010-05-02, 06:35 PM
unfortunately, he never actually said that we were levels 10-11. we gained enough XP for us to be levels 10-11, but I wasn't aware of that little factoid that limits us from leveling multiple times.

There is alway the time honoured tradition of not telling the DM. What he doesn't know doesn't hurt him :smalltongue:

jindra34
2010-05-02, 06:40 PM
... you have no idea how sad this made me.

there's nothing about nerfing loot based on level, though, right? I want a pile of loot from that.

Nope. Maul 'em all with your overkilled WBL.

BobTheDog
2010-05-02, 06:44 PM
There is alway the time honoured tradition of not telling the DM. What he doesn't know doesn't hurt him :smalltongue:

"To even things out, because I know the DM cheats when he rolls behind the screen!"
:smallbiggrin:

absolmorph
2010-05-02, 06:49 PM
There is alway the time honoured tradition of not telling the DM. What he doesn't know doesn't hurt him :smalltongue:
Especially if you have 3 encounters to go.
Seriously, that's a CR... 60 or 70 something, at least, encounter, if I'm figuring this correctly. At level 6.
HOLY CRAP. That's way more than should be used as anything but an encounter that's intended to be a loss.

Kylarra
2010-05-02, 06:51 PM
Actually it sounds pretty much like a slaughterfest if they're all funneling down a 10' hallway in discrete groups. More like multiple chump encounters with little time to rest between them, than a large encounter that's hard to deal with.

The Rabbler
2010-05-02, 06:53 PM
... unfortunately I just made that little piece of information known to the entirety of my group. including my DM.

i believe a certain memetic reference is in order here:

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

EDIT:



Actually it sounds pretty much like a slaughterfest if they're all funneling down a 10' hallway in discrete groups. More like multiple chump encounters with little time to rest between them, than a large encounter that's hard to deal with.


thats how it started. only the 9 non-humanoids were on the 10' walkway. then we got to the 600x600' arena of doom. thats where we fought the 13 squads of 4 level 5s and one level 6. and they weren't clumped together; we had to take them all individually. most of them used bows and our casters abused the fact that falling prone is a free action. still, we shouldn't have survived that.

pffh
2010-05-02, 06:56 PM
Especially if you have 3 encounters to go.
Seriously, that's a CR... 60 or 70 something, at least, encounter, if I'm figuring this correctly. At level 6.
HOLY CRAP. That's way more than should be used as anything but an encounter that's intended to be a loss.

Well if my calculations are correct it's only cr18

Tao the Ninja
2010-05-02, 07:04 PM
Well if my calculations are correct it's only cr18

yup... "only" cr 18. vs an unoptimised lv 6 party.

absolmorph
2010-05-02, 07:04 PM
Well if my calculations are correct it's only cr18
... CR is screwed up.
How does 52 CR 5 enemies translate into less than CR 18?

tyckspoon
2010-05-02, 07:08 PM
... CR is screwed up.
How does 52 CR 5 enemies translate into less than CR 18?

hmm.. let's see.. at 1 CR/doubling: 2 CR 5= CR 6. 4 CR 5= 7. 8=8. 16=9. 32=10. 52.. probably about 10.5. And then start the sequence on the 6th level leaders (9-10ish) and.. add them together in whatever arcane way CRs are supposed to be combined.. however it came out, they should have completely slaughtered the party. Although an actual party of ECL appropriate for that CR wouldn't have had much problem with it.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-02, 07:15 PM
... CR is screwed up.
How does 52 CR 5 enemies translate into less than CR 18?

Eventually it gets to the point where either you're dead regardless and adding more doesn't matter or they're so weak individually that more aren't really much of a threat.

Eldariel
2010-05-02, 07:15 PM
... CR is screwed up.
How does 52 CR 5 enemies translate into less than CR 18?

2xCR 5 = 7
4xCR 5 = 9
8xCR 5 = 11
16xCR 5 = 13
32xCR 5 = 15
64xCR 5 = 17

by DMG CR guidelines.

denthor
2010-05-02, 07:25 PM
Your DM is an dolt. 52 5th levels should be able to wipe you out by shooting arrows and retreating.

They did not have any healing so your goblin could throw a fireball and ten retreat behind the next ten 40 feet behind.

What type of money does your group have candles cost money just like scrolls and you need to light them so it takes more time.

The Rabbler
2010-05-02, 07:46 PM
Your DM is an dolt. 52 5th levels should be able to wipe you out by shooting arrows and retreating.

we were attacking their base; there really wasn't anywhere for them to go. but yea, they should've won. but let's not forget their level 6 leaders.



They did not have any healing so your goblin could throw a fireball and ten retreat behind the next ten 40 feet behind.

they were level 5s. fireballs from the goblin would do 6d6 to them. it takes 2-3 to kill a single soldier. instead, we had our warmage throw massively metamagic'd lightning bolts and fireballs at everyone.



What type of money does your group have candles cost money just like scrolls and you need to light them so it takes more time.

the candles are a class feature, so they cost half as much to create. that said, each one cost about 200 gp. we all chipped in a bit, but combat didn't last long enough for him to use more than 3. and no, its a free action to light them. remember: they're scrolls for all intents and purposes. except party members can light them too.

denthor
2010-05-02, 08:11 PM
we were attacking their base; there really wasn't anywhere for them to go. but yea, they should've won. but let's not forget their level 6 leaders.


they were level 5s. fireballs from the goblin would do 6d6 to them. it takes 2-3 to kill a single soldier. instead, we had our warmage throw massively metamagic'd lightning bolts and fireballs at everyone.


the candles are a class feature, so they cost half as much to create. that said, each one cost about 200 gp. we all chipped in a bit, but combat didn't last long enough for him to use more than 3. and no, its a free action to light them. remember: they're scrolls for all intents and purposes. except party members can light them too.

The last time I looked at the candle maker prestige class it was 25*level of spell*level of caster. 25*3*5= 375 for one candle and only lightable by the maker. You need to be 8th to make them usable by anyone. What spell was on them?

the above is fireball.

Ok so you sent fireballs and lighting down a corridor the arrows now target your mage his A/C? Even using scrolls the concentration check is DC scroll or finger is: 10+level of spell+ damage taken. unless you have the first shot in combat. Then you get two spells off the archer who should survive the first spell fire five and the other five wait for the caster to start forcing a concentration roll as above.

What else you got?

The Rabbler
2010-05-02, 08:33 PM
The last time I looked at the candle maker prestige class it was 25*level of spell*level of caster. 25*3*5= 375 for one candle and only lightable by the maker. You need to be 8th to make them usable by anyone. What spell was on them?

the above is fireball.

Ok so you sent fireballs and lighting down a corridor the arrows now target your mage his A/C? Even using scrolls the concentration check is DC scroll or finger is: 10+level of spell+ damage taken. unless you have the first shot in combat. Then you get two spells off the archer who should survive the first spell fire five and the other five wait for the caster to start forcing a concentration roll as above.

What else you got?

again. it was our warmage who did most of the aoe casting. the wizard threw two candles. we didn't use them. and I know that we can't use them until 8th level. that was a note for the future.

and in case you don't believe that our warmage did the blasting, say hello to his friend: empowered, extended, twinned lightning bolt with warmage's edge.

and as for your math, he was level 6. (25*3*6)/2 = 225.

Evil the Cat
2010-05-03, 12:55 AM
That damage doesn't seem right.

6d6 would average 21, 25 with warmage edge and 18 int.

Empower bumps it to 37

Twin makes it 74.

You can't extend Lightning Bolt, it's instantaneous.

if you toss in maximize you get 104, but that's still quite a ways shy of 200.

Maybe Repeat, Twinned, Maximized, Empowered would break 200, but even with Arcane thesis that's a 9th level spell, though with negative modifiers it's theoretically possible to get it back down to 3rd level, I think. Are there 6 different 0 adjustment metamagics?

Godskook
2010-05-03, 01:02 AM
L6 != 6th caster level.

Arcane Thesis alone bumps it up to 8th caster level.

Evil the Cat
2010-05-03, 01:23 AM
Hmm, 8th level caster...

8d6 would average 28, 32 with warmage edge and 18 int.

Empower bumps it to 48

Twin makes it 96.

Still can't extend.

Maximize would add 20 to baseline, so Maximized, Twinned, Empowered is at 136. Pretty frightening at level 6, but still not 200+

Repeat in this case would hit that 272 mark though, but that is an awful lot of feats for a 6th level character.

Empower, Twin, Maximize, Repeat, Arcane Thesis, and 6 +0 metamagics to get it back down to a level 3 slot.

11 feats at level 6 is petty extreme.

Though going cold sub, to fire sub, to acid sub, to elec sub, three thunders, invisible is pretty amusing. Apply substitution in the order that makes you happiest.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 01:49 AM
again. it was our warmage who did most of the aoe casting. the wizard threw two candles. we didn't use them. and I know that we can't use them until 8th level. that was a note for the future.

and in case you don't believe that our warmage did the blasting, say hello to his friend: empowered, extended, twinned lightning bolt with warmage's edge.

and as for your math, he was level 6. (25*3*6)/2 = 225.

The OP indicates a Warmage 5/Incantatrix 2. Is it just Incantatrix 1, then?

He's casting Lightning Bolt, a 3rd-level spell. Those three metamagic feats bump it up to a 10th-level spell, which he simply can't cast, unless there's some terrible cheese going on here. How is this possible with the 1 remaining feat (3 if flaws are allowed)?

It's no wonder you beat a ~17 CR encounter. You have >17 CR magic at your disposal.

EDIT: Also, your foes were apparently conveniently lined up in a 100 foot long, 5 foot wide corridor or something. I wouldn't expect a line attack to hit that many people.

denthor
2010-05-03, 09:49 AM
a warmage 5/incantrix 2

I get your warmage did most of the casting. Math mage you beat me to post. I had just pulled out my books to find out what spell slot level that lighting bolt should have been.


and in case you don't believe that our warmage did the blasting, say hello to his friend: empowered, extended, twinned lightning bolt with warmages edge warmage'

Twinned I have used it takes a first level spell and makes it a third(I used ray of enfeeblement). so Lightning starts at a third and bumps to a fifth level with just that megametic feat.

Can your warmage cast fifth level spells with only seven levels of mage? The last time I checked you need to be 9th to cast one 5th level spell with minimum of 15 intelligence. How many of those did he cast?

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 09:54 AM
Twinned I have used it takes a first level spell and makes it a third(I used ray of enfeeblement). so Lightning starts at a third and bumps to a fifth level with just that megametic feat.

Can your warmage cast fifth level spells with only seven levels of mage? The last time I checked you need to be 9th to cast one 5th level spell with minimum of 15 intelligence. How many of those did he cast?

Actually, Twin is +4 (you're probably thinking of Split Ray). And warmage doesn't get 5th level spells until level 10.

denthor
2010-05-03, 09:56 AM
Actually, Twin is +4 (you're probably thinking of Split Ray). And warmage doesn't get 5th level spells until level 10.

You are correct and I stand corrected.

gdiddy
2010-05-03, 11:46 AM
So a DM that had no idea what he was doing sent wave after wave of tactically-unthinking mooks at illegal builds?

There is more going wrong here than even the internet can fix.

Nidogg
2010-05-03, 12:09 PM
doesnt incantarix gain the ability to ignore spell level adjustment from meta mage? or is that its capstone?

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 12:29 PM
doesnt incantarix gain the ability to ignore spell level adjustment from meta mage? or is that its capstone?

At level 2, you can add metamagic to allies' spells, but that's not what's happening here. At level 3, you can add metamagic to long-term effects, also not what's happening here. At level 5, you can add it to spell trigger items, also not happening here. You can't add it to your own instantaneous spells until level 7, and even that is only once per day (twice at level 9). The capstone is -1 to all metamagic adjustments, which still wouldn't let you cast that spell at level 6.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 01:59 PM
At level 2, you can add metamagic to allies' spells, but that's not what's happening here. At level 3, you can add metamagic to long-term effects, also not what's happening here. At level 5, you can add it to spell trigger items, also not happening here. You can't add it to your own instantaneous spells until level 7, and even that is only once per day (twice at level 9). The capstone is -1 to all metamagic adjustments, which still wouldn't let you cast that spell at level 6.

Or level 16, for that matter, without other metamagic reducers like Easy/Practical Metamagic/Meta School Focus/Arcane Thesis etc.

Knaight
2010-05-03, 07:13 PM
So a DM that had no idea what he was doing sent wave after wave of tactically-unthinking mooks at illegal builds?

There is more going wrong here than even the internet can fix.

Nah, its fixable. You just need the internet equivalent of an amputation. Get them a new system, which is simpler, easier to understand, and harder to cheat in, while still being as capable.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 07:19 PM
Nah, its fixable. You just need the internet equivalent of an amputation. Get them a new system, which is simpler, easier to understand, and harder to cheat in, while still being as capable.

Bunnies and Burrows?

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 07:30 PM
Nah, its fixable. You just need the internet equivalent of an amputation. Get them a new system, which is simpler, easier to understand, and harder to cheat in, while still being as capable.

I dunno, if they're able to pretend that metamagic is free, it seems like you'd need a really simple system to keep them from cheating. How about a nice game of chess?

Threeshades
2010-05-03, 07:31 PM
I've got a question: If you cannot gain more than one level at a time where does all the excess experience go?

I think if I were to field so many monsters against the pcs at once, I'd rather keep track of how many they killed and let them advance in midfight.

gdiddy
2010-05-03, 07:46 PM
I dunno, if they're able to pretend that metamagic is free, it seems like you'd need a really simple system to keep them from cheating. How about a nice game of chess?

>checkers

Fixed.

The Rabbler
2010-05-03, 07:56 PM
sorry it took so long to post; I had school.

anyway, I'm not familiar with the incantrix and I generally don't play casters; I assumed that my party member's build was correct. he is a warmage 5/incantrix 2 (yes, he is level 7) with a ring of arcane might and what he seemed to be doing was adding metamagic feats to the spells he was casting by making a spellcraft check (with his beefed up spellcraft modifier). I have no idea if this is legitimate.

the monsters that we fought were on what amounted to a 10' wide bridge. all 9 of them. they died rather quickly. then we proceeded to enter the fortress. the fortress consisted of a MASSIVE courtyard (easily 600x600', probably way more, our DM wasn't specific. it didn't matter.) and it was THERE that we fought the 13 squads of human fighters.

any other things that need clarification?


EDIT:

oh, and he didn't have arcane thesis. he had rapid metamagic, extend spell (for persist spell next level), empower, twin, and acid substitution. I don't know if he had any flaws, though I doubt it.

Knaight
2010-05-03, 08:01 PM
Bunnies and Burrows?

I'm thinking Risus. You can't screw up Risus, and it is amazing.

Spellcraft checks? You might be able to pull that stunt off once with heavy flaws and the sudden line of spells, but spellcraft checks? Nuh-uh.

The Rabbler
2010-05-03, 08:09 PM
Spellcraft checks? You might be able to pull that stunt off once with heavy flaws and the sudden line of spells, but spellcraft checks? Nuh-uh.

I thought it sounded way too powerful...
well, at least we have a real reason to make him re-roll now.

Reynard
2010-05-03, 08:12 PM
Or just have him re-arrange his spells.

If the campaign is starting to break down, which happens, and sounds like it is, ask if you can have it end spectacularly.

The Rabbler
2010-05-03, 08:35 PM
Or just have him re-arrange his spells.

If the campaign is starting to break down, which happens, and sounds like it is, ask if you can have it end spectacularly.

he's a warmage. he's a spontaneous caster who focuses on blasting. what else would he get besides lightning bolt and fireball? (he can't get orb spells yet)

anyway, the idea of this thread was to give an example of how our campaign was begining to get way more difficult than we could reasonably handle and ways to get that fixed. apparently we only survived the encounter because of our grossly mis-played warmage. that will be solved. any other ideas as to how to fix the campaign?

Knaight
2010-05-03, 08:42 PM
Well, there are three main possibilities behind the difficulty.
a) Too hard to handle might be partially because of an assumption that encounters will be balanced regardless of what the people playing do. This incredibly hard encounter happened after a frontal assault on the enemy fort, it being extremely difficult makes sense. If this is the case, be more cautious.

b) The GM is balancing the encounters to deal with the completely and utterly illegal tactics being used with the warmage, and this is necessary for a real challenge because the warmage has taken glass cannon traits to an absurd level. Get that toned down or fixed, given that it is either illegal or completely broken and questionable, and this case is solved.

c) The GM is just giving way too hard encounters. Keep at it, either there will be a TPK at some point (which will tone them down in the future), or there won't be (so it isn't too bad anyways). If the encounters are the only real issue (that is to say, there is solid focus, description, setting, immersion, etc.) odds are the problem is either a), b), or soon to fade. If the GM lacks the other qualities mentioned, try to get a new GM for a while.

The Rabbler
2010-05-03, 08:52 PM
b) The GM is balancing the encounters to deal with the completely and utterly illegal tactics being used with the warmage, and this is necessary for a real challenge because the warmage has taken glass cannon traits to an absurd level. Get that toned down or fixed, given that it is either illegal or completely broken and questionable, and this case is solved.

c) The GM is just giving way too hard encounters. Keep at it, either there will be a TPK at some point (which will tone them down in the future), or there won't be (so it isn't too bad anyways). If the encounters are the only real issue (that is to say, there is solid focus, description, setting, immersion, etc.) odds are the problem is either a), b), or soon to fade. If the GM lacks the other qualities mentioned, try to get a new GM for a while.

in this instance, it was C, but more out of inexperience than anything else. he honestly thought that it was balanced for an average group of level 6s.

in general, though, it's B. not because of the illegal-ness of the warmage, but because our party manages to pull easily through encounters 1-2 ECL above. before the warmage's metamagic cheese could even happen. I ran four encounters by the party (we rotate DMing) which were all ECL 9-10 and they managed to down it pretty easily. at level 5. which is amazing given the fact that only the warmage can optimize (well, I can too) to any degree of playground worthiness.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 09:09 PM
sorry it took so long to post; I had school.

anyway, I'm not familiar with the incantrix and I generally don't play casters; I assumed that my party member's build was correct. he is a warmage 5/incantrix 2 (yes, he is level 7) with a ring of arcane might and what he seemed to be doing was adding metamagic feats to the spells he was casting by making a spellcraft check (with his beefed up spellcraft modifier). I have no idea if this is legitimate.

I can assure you that it is not.


the monsters that we fought were on what amounted to a 10' wide bridge. all 9 of them. they died rather quickly. then we proceeded to enter the fortress. the fortress consisted of a MASSIVE courtyard (easily 600x600', probably way more, our DM wasn't specific. it didn't matter.) and it was THERE that we fought the 13 squads of human fighters.

any other things that need clarification?

Presumably even heavily metamagicked Lightning Bolts cannot be hitting lots of spread-out enemies at once in a courtyard (unless he was using Sculpt Spell too?). Who dealt with them, and how?


EDIT:

oh, and he didn't have arcane thesis. he had rapid metamagic, extend spell (for persist spell next level), empower, twin, and acid substitution. I don't know if he had any flaws, though I doubt it.

This isn't improving the situation. What's he doing with a 20,000 gp ring at level 7? And I don't care how many Incantatrix levels he has, he can't get unlimited free metamagic with a Spellcraft check of any DC--and with a DC of 48 to cast a 10th-level metamagicked spell once a day (after taking 7 levels of Incantatrix), I'm baffled as to how he's boosting his Spellcraft checks that high at ECL 7. He also seems to have ignored the Iron Will feat prerequisite for Incantatrix.

The Rabbler
2010-05-03, 09:21 PM
Presumably even heavily metamagicked Lightning Bolts cannot be hitting lots of spread-out enemies at once in a courtyard (unless he was using Sculpt Spell too?). Who dealt with them, and how?
he was also throwing around fireballs. the lightning bolt killed all of the monsters, then he threw around a few fireballs as the rest of the party started doing stuff. and we were doing it well. invisibility only breaks when direct damage is dealt, after all.



This isn't improving the situation. What's he doing with a 20,000 gp ring at level 7? And I don't care how many Incantatrix levels he has, he can't get unlimited free metamagic with a Spellcraft check of any DC--and with a DC of 48 to cast a 10th-level metamagicked spell once a day (after taking 7 levels of Incantatrix), I'm baffled as to how he's boosting his Spellcraft checks that high at ECL 7. He also seems to have ignored the Iron Will feat prerequisite for Incantatrix.

this is part of the destabilization of the campaign; we all have money way beyond the WBL (I have +4 armor, a +2 weapon, and a +2 shield) because of the encounters we've been taking on.

and apparently he was treating himself as his own ally and metamagic-ing his own spells. he also has a +15 item of spellcraft (yea, I was serious about the money), so he was able to make some crazy checks.

oh, and he did take Iron Will; I just didn't bother listing it as it wasn't relevant to his metamagic-abuse.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 10:36 PM
he was also throwing around fireballs. the lightning bolt killed all of the monsters, then he threw around a few fireballs as the rest of the party started doing stuff. and we were doing it well. invisibility only breaks when direct damage is dealt, after all.


The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Just making sure.




this is part of the destabilization of the campaign; we all have money way beyond the WBL (I have +4 armor, a +2 weapon, and a +2 shield) because of the encounters we've been taking on.

and apparently he was treating himself as his own ally and metamagic-ing his own spells. he also has a +15 item of spellcraft (yea, I was serious about the money), so he was able to make some crazy checks.

oh, and he did take Iron Will; I just didn't bother listing it as it wasn't relevant to his metamagic-abuse.

How did you come to obtain enough money for this kind of abuse? Just how much over-CR were you before all this WBL started getting tossed around? I need not mention that he doesn't, in fact, count as his own ally.

Knaight
2010-05-03, 10:36 PM
Yeah, its time to break into a lighter system. Risus is probably overkill, but Savage Worlds could work (as much as I hate to suggest it.)

On an unrelated note, I like the Sarte quote (although technically it belongs to one of his characters in his play No Exit, but eh.)

gdiddy
2010-05-03, 10:53 PM
Breaking WBL isn't surprising when you have a player cheating with an Incantrix. Meanwhile, they are making The Rabbler reroll because ToB is overpowered.

I...ugh.

It's like people are on a mission to ruin the hobby.

The Rabbler
2010-05-03, 10:54 PM
How did you come to obtain enough money for this kind of abuse? Just how much over-CR were you before all this WBL started getting tossed around? I need not mention that he doesn't, in fact, count as his own ally.

it all started with a foray into a template-infested undead hellhole. that was probably 4-5 ECL higher than our group and we managed to make it through. the loot from that made our characters about 30k gp richer each. at level 5.

a combination of being lucky and quick thinking got us through alive. from there we started getting items that really made our characters work well.

EDIT:


Breaking WBL isn't surprising when you have a player cheating with an Incantrix.

he wasn't an incantrix at the time.



Meanwhile, they are making The Rabbler reroll because ToB is overpowered.

I've decided to make a psywar and show them that its not ToB that's wrong with the game. next campaign, they'll meet GOD a wizard.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-03, 10:55 PM
Breaking WBL isn't surprising when you have a player cheating with an Incantrix. Meanwhile, they are making The Rabbler reroll because ToB is overpowered.

I...ugh.

It's like people are on a mission to ruin the hobby.

It's like buying a puppy from a pet store specifically so you can kick it....

Kylarra
2010-05-03, 11:08 PM
Before this devolves into ToB-fire, it's worth pointing out that at the levels the OP seems to be playing, 1-6, ToB is significantly more powerful than most other classes straight out of the box, and even unoptimized ToB stands up to most optimized classes.

gdiddy
2010-05-03, 11:18 PM
Before this devolves into ToB-fire, it's worth pointing out that at the levels the OP seems to be playing, 1-6, ToB is significantly more powerful than most other classes straight out of the box, and even unoptimized ToB stands up to most optimized classes.

But it doesn't stand up to a person cheating with an incantrix.

Kylarra
2010-05-03, 11:23 PM
But it doesn't stand up to a person cheating with an incantrix.:smallsigh: The game was broken before incantrix became relevant.


he wasn't an incantrix at the time.



in general, though, it's B. not because of the illegal-ness of the warmage, but because our party manages to pull easily through encounters 1-2 ECL above. before the warmage's metamagic cheese could even happen.

gdiddy
2010-05-03, 11:27 PM
But the whole game is suspect.

We have limited information, and what we do know is that they let people cheat and ostensibly plan around cheaters.

The fact that they're "anti-optimization" is even more bizarre, because of what is obviously rules abuse.

The Rabbler
2010-05-03, 11:34 PM
But the whole game is suspect.

We have limited information, and what we do know is that they let people cheat and ostensibly plan around cheaters.

The fact that they're "anti-optimization" is even more bizarre, because of what is obviously rules abuse.

we don't let people cheat; we assume people are not cheating. the encounter described in the OP is the first in which we've seen the incantrix being played and abused. one encounter.

and we never plan around cheating. we were able to down excessively difficult challenges far before any rule-misinterpreting happened. we planned around us being able to handle these crazy encounters. this was the farthest a DM has ever advanced an encounter and we see how crazy it's getting. so we're all rebalancing our characters and the campaign.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 11:53 PM
it all started with a foray into a template-infested undead hellhole. that was probably 4-5 ECL higher than our group and we managed to make it through. the loot from that made our characters about 30k gp richer each. at level 5.

It is not uncommon for groups to face encounters 4-5 ECL above their level, I think (unless there's some vast disconnect between ECL and CR that I'm not aware of). It is uncommon for the DM to let his group get vastly over-WBL because of it. In one of my current PbP campaigns, our party of 6 level-6 characters took out a ~CR 12 encounter. We didn't level up, we didn't get a serious amount of loot, and what we did get we had to hand off to the NPCs that were helping us defend the town. If everyone had gotten +2 Flamestrike weapons and custom skill items, the campaign would be broken.

Okay, one exception. We got two Robes of +5 AC, which were only of serious benefit to the wizard in the party. But her AC's still under 20 before Mage Armor, and she's not going to break the game, because she knows how to play the game. Your warmage seemingly doesn't.

And while I'm thinking about it, even that +15 custom item you mentioned (which should be more expensive than it probably was) probably isn't enough for a 7th-level character to be making a DC 48 check with any regularity. 7 ranks + 4 ability + 1 ability increase + 15 skill item + 2 ability item = +29 modifier, which is obscene but still not enough to be casting Twinned Empowered Extended Lightning Bolt/Fireball with any regularity...wait, how was he using Extend Spell on a Lightning Bolt or Fireball, since those spells have instantaneous duration??? Excuse me: ARGH!!! :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:


I've decided to make a psywar and show them that its not ToB that's wrong with the game. next campaign, they'll meet GOD a wizard.

With how badly they've screwed up here, I really doubt they'd notice. Every time I look back at this thread I find another way in which the players are mismanaging their characters (at least the warmage, anyway) and the DM is mismanaging the campaign. You need to have a long and serious talk with this warmage player and the DM, at the very least. A short summary of the basic problems:
-The powergamer is *extremely* careless with the rules (bad combination);
-The DM is letting him get away with it (does he not know the rules well enough to offer a contradiction? That's a really bad sign);
-The DM is not considering game balance when awarding loot;
-The DM may not be playing the monsters intelligently or realistically.

If these four problems can be fixed, your future games will not be as devastatingly broken as this one was, and you probably won't need to break out the Psywar or God.

EDIT: I'm really, really tempted to break out the signature, but it would imply that you are a fool, when you're not really the target of this rant. Hmmm...

Evil the Cat
2010-05-04, 12:44 AM
Too much WBL is a very easy mistake to make. GM's like to toss in difficult encounters, which usually means npcs/villains with good gear. It only takes a few such encounters to throw off WBL.
I run a game where I think I've let the WBL get too high. Fortunately, I've made the availability of magic crafters rare enough that they don't have any way to abuse it.

Note: Any game with rotating GM can have problems. Sometimes in this situation, there is nobody to properly check people's characters and make sure everything is legit. In my group, I've become the de facto character auditor, but for a while there were occasional characters with serious design errors.


Even if you rotate GMs, have 1 person who is the "Main GM" who generally makes sure everything is going right.

Depending on your meanness level, a disjunction trap solves WBL issues in a hurry.....

The Rabbler
2010-05-04, 01:08 AM
It is not uncommon for groups to face encounters 4-5 ECL above their level, I think (unless there's some vast disconnect between ECL and CR that I'm not aware of). It is uncommon for the DM to let his group get vastly over-WBL because of it. In one of my current PbP campaigns, our party of 6 level-6 characters took out a ~CR 12 encounter. We didn't level up, we didn't get a serious amount of loot, and what we did get we had to hand off to the NPCs that were helping us defend the town. If everyone had gotten +2 Flamestrike weapons and custom skill items, the campaign would be broken.


actually, it is uncommon. when it does happen, it amounts to a 50-50 chance to even survive it or it's used in a way that's supposed to make the party run (as it says in the DMG). unless the party is optimized enough that 4-5 ECL higher is an effective challenge, of course (definitely not our party).

our DM gave out randomly rolled loot. we didn't get thrown a giant pile of goodies to pick through. the warmage sold his item and worked with the DM to get someone to make him an item of +15 spellcraft.




With how badly they've screwed up here, I really doubt they'd notice. Every time I look back at this thread I find another way in which the players are mismanaging their characters (at least the warmage, anyway) and the DM is mismanaging the campaign. You need to have a long and serious talk with this warmage player and the DM, at the very least. A short summary of the basic problems:
-The powergamer is *extremely* careless with the rules (bad combination);
-The DM is letting him get away with it (does he not know the rules well enough to offer a contradiction? That's a really bad sign);
-The DM is not considering game balance when awarding loot;
-The DM may not be playing the monsters intelligently or realistically.

If these four problems can be fixed, your future games will not be as devastatingly broken as this one was, and you probably won't need to break out the Psywar or God.



the powergamer likes to find holes in rules (he wanted to get wings of flurry without being a dragon for example) and he thought that he had found one. this was the first time any of us had used an incantrix and it seemed reasonable at the time (all day buffs certainly helped us beat that encounter).
our loot is rolled randomly and anything too unbalanced will be rerolled (example: when I was DMing, I rolled for them to find a staff of power. they ended up with a scroll of rejuvination. only one.).
and the DM was playing the monsters as well as could be expected; the idea was they were captured and they were used as the first defense against intruders.

look. the warmage screwed up and trashed a devastatingly difficult encounter (ECL 4-5 higher is one thing; 10+ higher is quite different). that's the fact of the matter. the warmage was trying to optimize as best he could by (apparently) exploiting what he thought was a hole in the rules. honestly, we trusted him enough to check his facts before trying anything and from now on he'll be forced to play ToM casters at worst. maybe a truenamer :smallamused:. we haven't decided yet.

in all seriousness, his characters will all be checked and re-checked and all PrCs thoroughly researched before they will be allowed. and he's promised to not even try to break anything again.

We will be redesigning all of our characters (here comes the psywar) and none of us will be given anything over WBL to start.

that should cover the holes in our game.


and as for your group of level 6s downing a ECL 12... by all means, you should have been given much more than a few robes of armor +5. unless it was very plot centric and it would make no sense for there to be any loot (up to the DM). but I can understand the idea of throwing off campaign balance by giving too much loot. We certainly wont let it happen again.

does that sound like it'd make a difference?