[3.5] Prestige Bard, why not dip this?

[Touchy]

I'm seeing some benefits for dipping this, such as,

1: Easy requirements, the only one that is mildly hard is the perform requirement, simply because it's a cross-class skill

2: +2 to caster level for divination, enchantment, and illusion

3: Free casting in light armor, which is nice, since you can take battle caster(I believe it's called) and then cast in Mitheral Full-plate.

4: One of the -2 caster loss is to evocation, and honestly who cares about
evocation? Necromancy hurts more however, but that varies from character to character

5: A bunch of class skills, and assuming your a wizard going into it, you get oh so many skillpoints.

6: Some limited bardic music ability, wizard's won't get much out of this, since these based on Cha skills.

7: More spells, who doesn't want more spells?

8: A level of (slightly) higher hitdice

All for one caster level loss, why don't I see this suggested a bit more(Or at all, really)?

Edit: Will possibly rewrite this into actual sentences tomorrow.

[ErrantX]

I've used it in builds before, but I think overall it's just kind of taboo. I don't know why, same goes for the Prestige Paladin and Ranger.

-X

[Touchy]

I've used it in builds before, but I think overall it's just kind of taboo. I don't know why, same goes for the Prestige Paladin and Ranger.

-X

I see the prestige paladin(for dips ofcourse) been suggested before though, never the bard or the ranger however.

[Flickerdart]

The little benefits aren't worth the cost. For a Sorcerer, that loss means they're an entire spell level behind Wizards, and Wizards don't care about Bardic abilities. It's really not very good.

[Raging Gene Ray]

All for one caster level loss, why don't I see this suggested a bit more(Or at all, really)?

Edit: Will possibly rewrite this into actual sentences tomorrow.

Because one caster level loss is no small payment. And where do you see more spells available? You don't gain access to bard spells just by taking prestige bard. Furthermore, with that one caster level loss, you're actually only getting +1 Caster Level to Enchantment/Divination/Illusion and a -3 to everything else.

And this is only talking in terms of a 1 or 2 level dip. Beyond that, you lose even more.

If you don't have already have a rogue or bard in the party, I guess it would be good to let your wizard/sorceror fill more roles, but there are probably prestige classes in other books that do this better, like the Unseen Seer.

[Touchy]

Because one caster level loss is no small payment. And where do you see more spells available? You don't gain access to bard spells just by taking prestige bard. Furthermore, with that one caster level loss, you're actually only getting +1 Caster Level to Enchantment/Divination/Illusion and a -3 to everything else.

And this is only talking in terms of a 1 or 2 level dip. Beyond that, you lose even more.

If you don't have already have a rogue or bard in the party, I guess it would be good to let your wizard/sorceror fill more roles, but there are probably prestige classes in other books that do this better, like the Unseen Seer.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm
Unique Spells

The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.

But I do see your point, but Conjuration, Abjuration, and Transmutation only go down 1, not 3.

[Pluto]

What sort of character would you use this with?

Typically making a good Bard means starting with the generalist Bard framework and focusing it on one particular task to make it competent. Prestige Bard does the opposite.

Also, Perform is a surprisingly tough prerequisite.

[Touchy]

What sort of character would you use this with?

Typically making a good Bard means starting with the generalist Bard framework and focusing it on one particular task to make it competent. Prestige Bard does the opposite.

Also, Perform is a surprisingly tough prerequisite.

Well the biggest benefit I'm seeing is the bonus spells, as I said, a dip.

Edit: Rethinking the Prereq. Yes it would be hard, because you need to be 16th level if you want to go straight caster, without alternative class features that would give perform as a class-skill.

Well, I should of seen this one coming.

[dextercorvia]

I was actually thinking about building a Warmage with Prestige Bard the other day. The build would start:

Warmage2/HumanParagon3/WildMage1/PrBard 2

Human Paragon would add Know:Religion, Perform, and UMD to the class skill list (among others). It probably requires taking Arcane Disciple twice to meat the illusion and enchantment spell prereq of Prestige Bard, but I haven't looked into it very thoroughly. Otherwise Practised spellcaster is a must, and probably Versatile Spellcaster.

[Greenish]

I was actually thinking about building a Warmage with Prestige Bard the other day. The build would start:

Warmage2/HumanParagon3/WildMage1/PrBard 2

Human Paragon would add Know:Religion, Perform, and UMD to the class skill list (among others). It probably requires taking Arcane Disciple twice to meat the illusion and enchantment spell prereq of Prestige Bard, but I haven't looked into it very thoroughly. Otherwise Practised spellcaster is a must, and probably Versatile Spellcaster.So at ECL 8 you cast like lvl 6 warmage. You do get a few more spells known, which is nice, but then again, if you're losing two caster levels, take Sand Shaper gets you a lot more spells known. (Also, Rainbow Warsnake.)

[Raging Gene Ray]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm
Unique Spells


Did NOT see that part...now it starts to make sense...a lot of sense...in fact, I have might have to agree with you now. Not only do you gain new spells, but the ones you have can be cast at lower levels. It's like the Arcane Archivist!

EDIT: Oh, wait..."At the indicated levels for the standard class" In other words, A Wizard going into Prestige Bard wouldn't get Glibness until his 7th level of the PrC.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I could see use for it in a suel arcanamach build that want to get higher level spells.. probably a dip lon enoug to get into subilme chord, and then a gish pretige class to advance sublime chords spell casting.

[Geiger Counter]

3: Free casting in light armor, which is nice, since you can take battle caster(I believe it's called) and then cast in Mitheral Full-plate.

where does it say that?

Also why has no one mentioned the beguiler?

[Mongoose87]

I could see use for it in a suel arcanamach build that want to get higher level spells.. probably a dip lon enoug to get into subilme chord, and then a gish pretige class to advance sublime chords spell casting.

Arcanamach doesn't get the required enchantment spells.

[Optimator]

What sort of character would you use this with?


Int based Bard, I guess. Like if a player wanted to pump int and int only. I guess for skills and roleplaying reasons. Or to have a Bard that could cast wizard spells but wanted the wizard chassis instead of Sublime Chord.

[Touchy]

where does it say that?

Also why has no one mentioned the beguiler?

Under weapon and armor proficiency.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
As the standard bard. A prestige bard can cast any arcane spells in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.


Edit:


Did NOT see that part...now it starts to make sense...a lot of sense...in fact, I have might have to agree with you now. Not only do you gain new spells, but the ones you have can be cast at lower levels. It's like the Arcane Archivist!

EDIT: Oh, wait..."At the indicated levels for the standard class" In other words, A Wizard going into Prestige Bard wouldn't get Glibness until his 7th level of the PrC.
Then wait, why do I see recommendations for a single level prestige paladin dip?


Prestige PaladinUA
This class only exists for a one level dip. If it wasn't actually a prestige class, it would be up in the dip section. The important aspect of this class is that it puts all the paladin spells onto your cleric spell list. In combination with Ordained Champion, A build utilizing this dip can be a powerhouse.

This is the cleric handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) I'm referencing. Guess that information is wrong then.

[Greenish]

EDIT: Oh, wait..."At the indicated levels for the standard class" In other words, A Wizard going into Prestige Bard wouldn't get Glibness until his 7th level of the PrC.One should assume that refers to spell level, not character level (so dipping Prestige Bard would get you Glibness as a 3rd level spell).

[dextercorvia]

So at ECL 8 you cast like lvl 6 warmage. You do get a few more spells known, which is nice, but then again, if you're losing two caster levels, take Sand Shaper gets you a lot more spells known. (Also, Rainbow Warsnake.)

Yeah after posting I was thinking about it, and I realized I had lost two caster levels and wasted a couple of feats to be beguiler's idiot kid brother.

Rainbow Warsnake sounds fun, but I don't have the Sand Shaper info.

[Greenish]

Rainbow Warsnake sounds fun, but I don't have the Sand Shaper info.Sand Shaper is 8/10 castin PrC from Sandstorm that has different desert-related class features, such as +1 CL while in desert (or carrying a pouch of sand) and the handy ability to apply any metamagic to a spell 3/day without raising the level of the spell. You don't even have to have the relevant metamagic feat, but it sadly only works on "wastes".

Also, it has a huge list of spells, and any spontaneous caster will explicitly gain them all as spells known. Most of them aren't that hot, but they replace quality with quantity many times over. (Also, all "Animal's Attribute" spells as 1st level spells.)