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The Pressman
2010-05-02, 09:12 PM
I have heard say of these a lot, and was wondering:

-The XP detriment for level differences still applies, right?
-What would be a good one for an archivist, fairly low level?

Mando Knight
2010-05-02, 09:14 PM
1.) If you never advance more than one class beyond 2nd level, you never have to pay the penalty, especially if you're human or choose your favored class.

2.) Spellcasters should never dip into other base classes unless they're looking to synergize it with a good PrC. Getting better spells is better than adding a second class.

balistafreak
2010-05-02, 09:14 PM
I have heard say of these a lot, and was wondering:

-The XP detriment for level differences still applies, right?
-What would be a good one for an archivist, fairly low level?

It's a level of another class. XP penalty definitely applies here. Actually, it was probably designed to apply there. :smalltongue:

As for a level-dip for an Archivist? Don't. Absolutely not. You're a full-caster, and a dip had bloody well have a good reason for losing a precious caster level, spells per day, and spell-level progression.

... that being said, I've always wanted to try a Factotum1 dip at first level taking Able Learner, just so I could pick whatever skills I pleased my entire career.

The Pressman
2010-05-02, 09:16 PM
... that being said, I've always wanted to try a Factotum1 dip at first level taking Able Learner, just so I could pick whatever skills I pleased my entire career.
That's actually what I was thinking of,but I probably won't. Still, all those skills...:smallsmile:

Geiger Counter
2010-05-02, 09:29 PM
does anyone actually use multiclassing penalties?:smallconfused:

DragoonWraith
2010-05-02, 09:30 PM
Horrifically, yes...

cupkeyk
2010-05-02, 09:31 PM
That's actually what I was thinking of,but I probably won't. Still, all those skills...:smallsmile:

but you don't get 4(or2 or 6 or 8) plus int mod times 4 skill points. You only get 4(or2 or 6 or 8) plus int mod.

nargbop
2010-05-02, 09:31 PM
XP penalties occur when you have a class that is more than one level different from another class, and neither is your favored class. An elf Archivist 3 / Cleric 1 would experience the penalty, but an elf Wizard 3 / Cleric 1 would not, because Wizard is her favored class. Elf Wizard 5 / Cleric 3 / Archivist 1 would experience the penalty. Humans are good for this, because they can use any class as favored.

Possible one-level dips as Archivist :
A. Cleric 1 for turning. Uses : many. Divine Metamagic is probably the best for you. There may be a PrC that grants turning without interrupting your Archivist spellcasting progression, but I don't know it.
B. Factotum 1 for all class skills and adding INT to your attack rolls. If you haven't already started the game, make this your first level.

You can shop around for appropriate PrCs for you, depending on your character.

balistafreak
2010-05-02, 09:54 PM
A. Cleric 1 for turning. Uses : many. Divine Metamagic is probably the best for you. There may be a PrC that grants turning without interrupting your Archivist spellcasting progression, but I don't know it.
B. Factotum 1 for all class skills and adding INT to your attack rolls. If you haven't already started the game, make this your first level.


Just going to add that if you're dipping, there's no reason to not make the Cleric a Cloistered Cleric, for the additional domain. For that matter, a Cloistered Cleric dip should generally turn all three of his domains into Devotion feats, because while those scale with level, the spells don't.

As for Factotum1, also bear in mind you're going to need to use a feat to get the skills for all your levels. (Assuming you don't want to pay 2 points per rank, which frankly stinks to high heaven.) And it's not straight Intelligence to attack rolls - Brains over Brawn only adds Intelligence to Strength and Dexterity based checks, and at 3rd level, not 1st.

Unless you were talking about Cunning Insight, but that's hardly a straight-up bonus; that's an Inspiration ability that you'll be able to use once per encounter.

Glimbur
2010-05-02, 09:57 PM
A. Cleric 1 for turning. Uses : many. Divine Metamagic is probably the best for you. There may be a PrC that grants turning without interrupting your Archivist spellcasting progression, but I don't know it.


Sacred Exorcist, Complete Divine. Not too onerous to qualify for, but Archivists actually get class features so it's not a gimme.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-02, 11:43 PM
Just going to add that if you're dipping, there's no reason to not make the Cleric a Cloistered Cleric, for the additional domain. For that matter, a Cloistered Cleric dip should generally turn all three of his domains into Devotion feats, because while those scale with level, the spells don't.

<snip>


IIRC you can onlyu trade up to two domains, still there are some good domains, for example travel, knowledge & undeath (or planning) make trading knowlede and travel for devotions, make a good base for a DMM cleric IMHO

having said that, my personal favorites are law, animal and travel devotions, and I believe an archivist can make good use of a cleric dip to get any of the above domains

Akal Saris
2010-05-02, 11:49 PM
Yeah, as others have said, cloistered cleric 1 or factotum 1 are both decent dips for an archivist, though it's best to not lose CLs.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-02, 11:51 PM
I never use multiclass penalties, because a single-classed caster will still be more powerful nearly all of the time anyway. On that note, losing a level of archivist better give you some really good stuff in return. I'd say Factotum doesn't cut it. Cleric maybe, but I wouldn't unless you're going for a prestige class that needs it.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-03, 12:34 AM
I never use multiclass penalties, because a single-classed caster will still be more powerful nearly all of the time anyway. On that note, losing a level of archivist better give you some really good stuff in return. I'd say Factotum doesn't cut it. Cleric maybe, but I wouldn't unless you're going for a prestige class that needs it.

I never use multiclass penalties either, for the same reason. Full-casters may occasionally benefit in some small way from a 1-level dip, but it's unlikely to make as much of a difference to their level of power as NOT dipping will to a martial character. And since we already know full-casters out-power all that is not full-caster, it seems unfair to nerf martial characters further.

In theory, it's supposed to keep people from being all over the place, but it's also just a holdover from 2e, along with pick locks and disable device being separate skills.

obnoxious
sig

PId6
2010-05-03, 12:37 AM
Cloistered Cleric at level 1 is actually pretty great for an archivist. Lots of skill points, Turn Undead, Knowledge Devotion, and free Extend Spell (Planning Domain) and Extra Turning (Undeath Domain) for DMM. I'd say three bonus feats and Turn Undead are worth losing 1 caster level for.

And yeah, +1 for getting rid of multiclassing penalties, though unfortunately I know of several DMs who actually do play by that rule.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-03, 12:37 AM
For Archivist?

Wizard 1. With sanctum spell/precocious apprentice, you can get into Mystic Theurge, and end up gaining overall casting power.

Pluto
2010-05-03, 12:44 AM
Conjurer 1 can be decent for the Rapid and Enhanced summoning variants.

Godskook
2010-05-03, 12:58 AM
For dipping, I'd probably prefer abrupt jaunt as my familiar-trade. Rapid Summoning is easier to replicate.

reptilecobra13
2010-05-03, 01:27 AM
One of my favorite dips is Barbarian (lion totem variant). It lets you snag Pounce for a very small price.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-03, 01:50 AM
Technically humans don't treat any class as their favored class they treat their highest level class as their favored class.

An dwarf fighter4/Swashbuclker7/Rogue6 would suffer no xp penalty because his fighter class is favored duh!

A human fighter4/Swashbucker7/Rogue6 would suffer an xp penalty because Swashbuckler is his favored class

sonofzeal
2010-05-03, 01:53 AM
Technically humans don't treat any class as their favored class they treat their highest level class as their favored class.

An dwarf fighter4/Swashbuclker7/Rogue6 would suffer no xp penalty because his fighter class is favored duh!

A human fighter4/Swashbucker7/Rogue6 would suffer an xp penalty because Swashbuckler is his favored class
But a Human Rogue1/Swashbuckler7/Figher2/Barbarian1/Swordsage2/Warblade1 wouldn't suffer an xp penalty. And that's awesome.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-05-03, 02:47 PM
does anyone actually use multiclassing penalties?:smallconfused:Me. I'm a rough DM :smallyuk: