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View Full Version : How to tone down optimization? [Any, but primarily Exalted at the moment]



Fortuna
2010-05-03, 04:10 AM
So I've got this group. And we play RPGs, mostly D&D or Exalted (actually, just Exalted now). And in this group is a player.

And this player, he's a nice guy. But unfortunately, he optimizes. Like crazy. We've yet to see a session where he didn't outshine everyone. Including the time he deliberately played a fighter to gimp himself. This player just doesn't seem to be ale to help himself. What do you suggest we do? He (nolispe on these boards) has agreed with me that there exists a problem, but I've yet to see a way to solve it that doesn't rely on him restraining himself (which just doesn't seem to work).

Doc Roc
2010-05-03, 04:23 AM
Pick a more mellow system? Exalted is... fragile.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 04:34 AM
Gimp the ability scores?

Greenish
2010-05-03, 04:34 AM
Yeah... that's the problem. Does anyone here have any good ideas to prevent this? Although, be fair, in our group, when you flurry it completely outshines everyone, and the use of *Shudder* charms seems to be cheating optimisation.
But still, even I would prefer not to be playing on my own.Don't build your characters: make tables of everything and roll.

nolispe
2010-05-03, 04:36 AM
Don't build your characters: make tables of everything and roll.

What do you mean?

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 04:49 AM
What do you mean?

"What feats do I take?" "Roll a d100."
"What skills do I put ranks in?" "Roll a d20."
"What class do I take?" "Roll 5d6."

And so on.

One Step Two
2010-05-03, 05:19 AM
In Exalted? Hard to say, the aim of the game is to try and shine a little brighter than the rest as it is.

As for other games, ask him to take a back-seat, healer (not cleric, a healer), a buffing mage or a Bard. In those sorts of scenarios, his optimisation becomes a benefit to the party to be a whole.

Tengu_temp
2010-05-03, 07:16 AM
In Exalted? Tell him to play a character focusing on one or more of these:
1. Crafting
2. Sorcery
3. Social combat

Problem solved! Especially if he takes all three.

SadisticFishing
2010-05-03, 07:18 AM
Much simpler solution, and what I did, seeing as I'm the crazy forum reading power gamer...

Have him teach the rest of you to optimize. Working together to come up with characters that people want to play in combat and out is an important part of the game, and having someone that can do in combat well is a good thing, especially if he uses his power for good, and not evil.

Tengu_temp
2010-05-03, 07:29 AM
That's a good idea, but only if the other players agree. You can't force the majority to accomodate to the playstyle of one player in the group.

kamikasei
2010-05-03, 07:36 AM
I'd be interested in seeing specific examples.

Do you guys build your characters together, or separately?

Drascin
2010-05-03, 07:42 AM
In Exalted? Tell him to play a character focusing on one or more of these:
1. Crafting
2. Sorcery
3. Social combat

Problem solved! Especially if he takes all three.

Tengu, how many times do I have to ask you to not be evil? :smalltongue:

Anxe
2010-05-03, 09:05 AM
Build his character for him?

Godskook
2010-05-03, 09:13 AM
OK, can we get examples of his and other people's builds? Cause "We have this player who can take some really bad options and then outshine the team" doesn't sound like a problem with that player typically.

I mean, what level are you guys playing at, and in the case of his fighter build, how much dipping did he do?



Oh, and a quick test to make sure he's the problem. Have him play a truenamer without: Item Familiar, Leadership, or custom magic items that involve truenaming.

If he *still* comes out ahead of your group, he ain't the problem.

Jerthanis
2010-05-03, 11:07 AM
There's a pretty intense gulf in Exalted that basically hinges around Extra Action Charms, in my experience. I've seen two situations occur where a character got up to the very first Extra Action Charm in their fighting style and stopped, yet continued to hold their own for the entire game.

If the other characters manage at least that and he's still so much better that they feel like taggers on and baggage, then you might want to ask him to tone down, and that could be represented by him losing his giant weapon, or tending towards weaker combos or even just that the enemies acknowledge his martial pussiance and dedicate the majority of their motes to staving his attacks off.

gdiddy
2010-05-03, 11:41 AM
Uh, I would honestly have him number out what everyone else in the party is capable of.

Then have him come up with something that is numerically in line with that average.

"[C]an't help himself" is no excuse if he's ruining other people's times.

Indon
2010-05-03, 12:06 PM
Optimize with a less powerful objective in mind.

My players, for instance, are good optimizers (some have been regulars of this very forum). They optimize within limitations that they set for their character concepts.

If things are really problematic, you can have him play a less powerful character type. Exalt character type power, in rough order, from the strongest down (mind that optimization can make big differences here):

-Solar
-Infernal, Abyssal (At least I'm pretty sure they're both just under Solars).
-Lunar, Sidereal
-Dragon-Blood
-Dragon King, most Spirits
-God-Blooded
-Essence-using Mortal
-Non Essence-using Mortal

I don't know where Alchemicals, Fae, or Jadeborn land.


In Exalted? Tell him to play a character focusing on one or more of these:
1. Crafting
2. Sorcery
3. Social combat

Problem solved! Especially if he takes all three.

Misho, Thrice-Radiant!

nolispe
2010-05-03, 02:04 PM
Just need to point something out: In that group, use of charms in combat was the major outshining point. That and flurry.

randomhero00
2010-05-03, 02:31 PM
It sounds like he isn't the problem. Either the group as a whole wants less combat/hack-n-slash, in which case its the DM/storytellers fault for not accommodating his/her players. Or you guys need to get some combat focus in your builds. Combat charms and flurry are basic parts of exalted. You're supposed to have charms for everything so you never feel left out.

If the problem is that nolispe has all combat charms then he should be feeling left out in social situations, which are meant to be a big part of exalted. If that is the case just take 1/3 to 1/2 of your charms as social/utility charms.

The other thing in exalted is that some of the circle are meant to be better in certain areas. Dawn is supposed to kick butt in combat. Not all exalted are created equal in all areas. So the problem may also be in your perception of exalted.

Indon
2010-05-03, 02:51 PM
Just need to point something out: In that group, use of charms in combat was the major outshining point. That and flurry.

Strategic combat, then?

I helped my players familiarize themselves with combat strategy by putting them in situations where flurries/charms were helpful, or facing them against opponents who used them against the players.

Tengu_temp
2010-05-03, 03:44 PM
Just need to point something out: In that group, use of charms in combat was the major outshining point. That and flurry.

What. Flurry is a base combat mechanic, and even the most non-combat oriented Exalted should at least have an excellency in some combat ability. The problem is not that this guy is a powergamer, the problem is that the rest of the group doesn't grasp the very basics of the system. If I'd play a DND wizard who wouldn't use spells, I'd feel overshadowed too.

Solution: Give players hints in combat, remind them that they can use flurries and charms. I assume they have combat charms and just don't use them for whatever reason, yeah?

Tome
2010-05-03, 04:17 PM
Agreed. If actually using combat charms and flurries is causing one player to outshine the rest, that's not the player's fault. I mean, I've been ST for a few Exalted games and even the non-combat characters had a combat excellency and knew how to use flurries. In fact, the two I can recall off the top of my head both picked up a few other combat Charms pretty quickly that saw frequent use. :smallbiggrin: