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Sachiru
2010-05-03, 04:27 AM
Creating a new character (preferably a sorcerer or some other spellcasting equivalent where I do not need to prepare spells).
I'd like to have a reasonably powerful magus who'd give pause to enemy armies, but not unreasonably powerful like a kobold who can one-shot a thousand Tarrasques using insane Celerity combos.
I'd like it so that his typical approach to problems is to use illusions and mind control to turn foes onto each other, or cause them to go into eternal sleep/gibber in fear/be polymorphed into cockroaches or something. Kinda like a mage who can do anything except blast enemies away.
Any tips that you have for me to build my character upon?

Starting Level: 1st (LA +1 Maximum, No LA Buy-Off)
Ability Generation: Standard 25 Point-Buy
Alignment: Good and Neutral
Wealth: Average for Class
Hit Points: Max at Every Level
Required Material: PHB I and a d20 SRD
Optional Material: Cityscape, Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Complete Champion, Complete Divine, Complete Mage, Complete Psionic, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Warrior, Deities & Demigods, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Expanded Psionic Handbook, Frostburn, Ghostwalk, Heroes of Battle, Magic Item Compendium, Magic of Incarnum, Miniatures Handbook, Planar Handbook, Player's Handbook II, Psionics Handbook, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of the Dragon, Races of the Wild, Sandstorm, Spell Compendium, Stormwrack, Tome of Magic, Unearthed Arcana
Traits and Flaws (Optional): Up to Two (2) Traits or One (1) Flaw. Note that these things WILL come into play, so choose carefully as to whether you actually want them or not.
Optional House Rules: Environmental Racial Variants, Elemental Racial Variants, Racial Paragon Classes, Spelltouched Feats, Weapon Group Feats, Variant Character Classes, Specialist Wizard Variants

Aharon
2010-05-03, 04:36 AM
Hi Sachiru, there are lots of helpful handbooks on the old wizards forum and on the brilliant gameologists site:
here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?board=22.0) and here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872646/Some_handy_links_for_CO_work).

If you don't want a celerity-abusing monstrosity, just choosing the right spells will do the trick. You could play sorcerer 20 and still be reasonably powerful.

Those tips are also in the handbooks you will find on the linked sites, but to start you off
To have an easier time using Metamagic with the feat Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage or the Variant from Unearthed Arcana, though you lose your familiar for it.

On the choice of Flaws and Traits:
I don't know how to interpret the line you posted. If your DM intends to use them in ways other than the mechanical drawbacks they bestow (i. e. vulnerable does things worse than lower your AC by one), I would probably limit myself to one flaw that somehow fits the background story, or take none at all. They might be crippling if he makes up drawbacks you don't know about.

ghost_warlock
2010-05-03, 04:45 AM
Spontaneous spellcaster who would give pause to an army, but not blow them away?

Look here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872218/-_The_New_Beguiler_Handbook_-_2008).

Runestar
2010-05-03, 04:51 AM
I second beguiler as well. You don't have to fuss over what spells to choose, simply select the best spell you have.

You will probably want beguiler5/mindbender1/beguiler6+. The purpose is to push advanced learning to lv8, when you get 4th lv spells, so you can choose more useful spells to learn. :smallsmile:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-03, 05:07 AM
I second beguiler as well. You don't have to fuss over what spells to choose, simply select the best spell you have.

You will probably want beguiler5/mindbender1/beguiler6+. The purpose is to push advanced learning to lv8, when you get 4th lv spells, so you can choose more useful spells to learn. :smallsmile:Nabbing that 60' Telepathy for Mindsight (Lords of Madness) is a nice added benefit.

Amphetryon
2010-05-03, 05:22 AM
Beguiler Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0). Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Beguiler +2/Divine Oracle 2/Beguiler +10 is pretty solid.

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 05:25 AM
Thanks for the tips.

So I'm going for a human sorcerer, no special bloodlines or anything.

Are these stats okay? (http://yellowrex.com/tools/pbcalc.php?str=5&dex=9&con=11&iq=10&wis=5&cha=13&str_mod=0&dex_mod=0&con_mod=0&iq_mod=0&wis_mod=0&cha_mod=0&race=0)

EDIT: Oooh, the Beguiler sounds very nice. Can I start with him, given those conditions at my first post?

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 05:48 AM
Also, If I'd like to focus on status effects (causing enemies to cower in fear, silencing or stunning them, or controlling them so that they attack one another) and If beguiler is locked (seems like the DM doesn't favor using nonstandard classes, so I'd simply have to go with sorcerer and go prestige class later on), what other options do I have?

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 05:54 AM
It sounds like you really, really want to play a beguiler. There's no reason why you can't. Switch your Int and Cha, and beg your DM to let you play the class.

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 07:00 AM
It sounds like you really, really want to play a beguiler. There's no reason why you can't. Switch your Int and Cha, and beg your DM to let you play the class.

Well, he flat-out refused. Seems like his previous game had a Beguiler too who minmaxed. Being the only spellcaster in that game (apart from a cleric who did nothing but teleport, heal, resurrect and turn undead, since it was an undead-themed adventure), it kinda made the other characters redundant and instilled a deep phobia in the DM.

gdiddy
2010-05-03, 07:05 AM
Have you considered a Psion?

They're a little bit easier to handle for beginners, if your comfortable with the flavor difference.

Prodan
2010-05-03, 07:11 AM
Have you considered a Psion?

They're a little bit easier to handle for beginners, if your comfortable with the flavor difference.

Not going to work well if his DM considers Beguilers overpowered...

Greenish
2010-05-03, 07:14 AM
So I'm going for a human sorcerer, no special bloodlines or anything.How do you feel about kobolds?

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 07:17 AM
How do you feel about kobolds?
To quote my DM directly:


Remember: Interesting and Compelling > Uber-Divine Kobolds.

So, no, no to kobolds. I haven't had the foggiest idea of what a kobold is, anyway, and I don't think I can adapt and act out the mind-set of a kobold.

Greenish
2010-05-03, 07:35 AM
So, no, no to kobolds. I haven't had the foggiest idea of what a kobold is, anyway, and I don't think I can adapt and act out the mind-set of a kobold.Well, Races of Dragon could educate you further, but if you're not interested, humans are never a bad choice.

So, your DM dislikes non-core races and classes; that's a bit of a bummer, since you'd have a nice selection of books in there.

For your sorcerer, have a look at Comp. Arcana and Mage of the Arcane Order PrC: it's not hugely powerful, but gives sorcerers some versatility.

Amphetryon
2010-05-03, 07:44 AM
OK, so your DM prefers you to play a Sorcerer, which is (arguably) more powerful than a Beguiler. Please don't throw me in that briar patch. :smallwink:

Run this past him:
Killoren (Races of the Wild) Sorcerer 8/Divine Oracle (Complete Divine) 2/Wild Soul (Complete Mage) 10.

Gets: 19/20 Spellcasting, immunity out of the box to sleep effects, bonuses vs. enchantment and mind-affecting, evasion in armor, a 'smite' ability, some fun spontaneous spell options, 3/day Summon Ally ability, and TONS of fey flavor.

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 07:47 AM
Well, Races of Dragon could educate you further, but if you're not interested, humans are never a bad choice.

So, your DM dislikes non-core races and classes; that's a bit of a bummer, since you'd have a nice selection of books in there.

For your sorcerer, have a look at Comp. Arcana and Mage of the Arcane Order PrC: it's not hugely powerful, but gives sorcerers some versatility.

Yeah, just read up on that and it seems to be an interesting idea.

Side question: Does Mage of the Arcane Order go well with Ultimate Magus or Archmage or (gasp) Incantatrix (since I managed to get him to allow this)?

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 07:51 AM
OK, so your DM prefers you to play a Sorcerer, which is (arguably) more powerful than a Beguiler. Please don't throw me in that briar patch. :smallwink:

Run this past him:
Killoren (Races of the Wild) Sorcerer 8/Divine Oracle (Complete Divine) 2/Wild Soul (Complete Mage) 10.

Gets: 19/20 Spellcasting, immunity out of the box to sleep effects, bonuses vs. enchantment and mind-affecting, evasion in armor, a 'smite' ability, some fun spontaneous spell options, 3/day Summon Ally ability, and TONS of fey flavor.

Seems like a good idea, but just a few questions:


TONS of fey flavor.

Please explain, I have absolutely no idea what you meant with that.

Also, is this a combat-oriented spellcaster (by combat oriented you step into the fray and rain death upon enemies) or a noncombatant build (by noncombatant you stay far behind the meatshield, directing things and ensuring that even if your entire party is wiped, you stay safe behind a layer of Prismatic Walls, Forcecages and walls of flaming death, while you cast your teleport and resurrection spells)?

Greenish
2010-05-03, 07:52 AM
Yeah, just read up on that and it seems to be an interesting idea.

Side question: Does Mage of the Arcane Order go well with Ultimate Magus or Archmage or (gasp) Incantatrix (since I managed to get him to allow this)?Beguiler in undead-heavy campaign was overpowered, kobolds are overpowered, Incantatrix is a-ok. :smallconfused:

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 07:58 AM
Beguiler in undead-heavy campaign was overpowered, kobolds are overpowered, Incantatrix is a-ok. :smallconfused:

I know, I was astounded myself when I managed to persuade him to allow that. Then again, I told him I'd give my hot cousin's phone number to him if he'd allow it, so...

Aharon
2010-05-03, 08:11 AM
Well, I wouldn't have thought you would want Incantatrix seeing how you want reasonably powerful :smallwink:

Ask your cousin for a favor, get her to date him once, and get your Beguiler :smalltongue:

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 08:16 AM
Well, I wouldn't have thought you would want Incantatrix seeing how you want reasonably powerful :smallwink:

Ask your cousin for a favor, get her to date him once, and get your Beguiler :smalltongue:

Why? What's wrong with an Incantatrix? How did he become unreasonably powerful?

Amphetryon
2010-05-03, 08:25 AM
Seems like a good idea, but just a few questions:

Please explain, I have absolutely no idea what you meant with that.

Also, is this a combat-oriented spellcaster (by combat oriented you step into the fray and rain death upon enemies) or a noncombatant build (by noncombatant you stay far behind the meatshield, directing things and ensuring that even if your entire party is wiped, you stay safe behind a layer of Prismatic Walls, Forcecages and walls of flaming death, while you cast your teleport and resurrection spells)?The Killoren race is a fey race, and the Wild Soul PrC is a fey-themed one. If you chose this build, you'd be a sorcerous (wo)man of the forest, excelling in Illusion and Enchantments.

While the spells you choose can transform a Sorcerer pretty easily from a combat-oriented build to a non-com and back, the illusory and enchantment abilities inherent to the build, coupled with the ability to summon creatures to help, lend themselves to a 'stay in the back' style of play for most.

Aharon
2010-05-03, 08:28 AM
Sorry for being obtuse, I will elaborate.

There are two versions of the Incantatrix class, one is in Magic of Faerun, the other, updated one in player's guide to Faerun (you didn't mention access to those books, by the way.)
The one in Magic of Faerun is already rather good, offering 3 bonus feats, Instant Metamagic (2/day, apply metamagic without changing spell slot), and improved metamagic (spell level adjustment for all metamagic feats is lowered by one), as well as a bunch of other things.

The one in PGtF is generally considered overpowered. It takes away most of the other things, but adds one more bonus feat, the ability to apply metamagic to spells of allied spellcasters, the ability to apply metamagic to spells already in effect, the ability to apply metamagic to spells cast from spell trigger items, and the ability to take over concentration from another caster. That's a lot of abilities, most of them very strong. Experienced players can do awful things with those abilities, and it should be rather strong even in the hands of a noob.

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 09:28 AM
Sorry for being such a noob, but I still don't get it. What's the deal with metamagic anyway?

Greenish
2010-05-03, 09:31 AM
Sorry for being such a noob, but I still don't get it. What's the deal with metamagic anyway?1. Magic is the best thing in D&D.

2. Metamagic makes magic better.

3. Incantrix screws the limitations of metamagic over.


[Edit]: See also mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer), which applies metamagics to what is generally considered the least optimal aspect of casters: blasting.

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 09:38 AM
how does metamagic make magic better?

Greenish
2010-05-03, 09:45 AM
how does metamagic make magic better?:smallconfused: Ya pullin' me leg?

Larger area, longer duration, stronger effect, additional effects…

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 10:03 AM
:smallconfused: Ya pullin' me leg?

Larger area, longer duration, stronger effect, additional effects…

Oh I see.

I don't know exactly what "metamagic" is, so I have no idea how it makes things better. If you can explain exactly how metamagic works, thanks.

Incidentally I went with Killoren (Races of the Wild) Sorcerer 8/Divine Oracle (Complete Divine) 2/Wild Soul (Complete Mage) 10, since the DM allowed Killoren races.

How would I go about building him?

Aharon
2010-05-03, 10:07 AM
Well, you should perhaps read the rules about magic if you intend to play a caster.
You will find them in the Magic section of the PHB, page 169 onwards. Information about metamagic feats can be found in the same book page 88. There, the basic rules are explained.

Perhaps you should also read the information on character creation, you find that on page 6. :smallconfused:

When you said noob, I didn't think absolutely new to the game. I'm sorry, but you won't get around some reading of the rules - they are available to you, and they won't get easier to understand if we paraphrase them for you, sorry.

If this is your first game ever (and it seems like it), you may want to consider playing something easier, like a druid or a barbarian. You can't make lots of mistakes with those.

the humanity
2010-05-03, 10:43 AM
a Warlock is the easiest spellcaster early on.

if you don't know what to do with yourself, just blast people. if you get a few good tricks, use eldritch to make your enemies all weak and fluffy.

also, metamagic works like this- you take a spell, and by putting more of your energy and ability into it, you make it tougher, or more powerful, or longer lasting...etc etc.

Amphetryon
2010-05-03, 11:14 AM
1st level: Choose a non-lawful alignment. Take the feat Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion), which is required for Divine Oracle. Ask your DM if you can have the feat "Educated", found in the Eberron Campaign Setting and detailed at Crystalkeep.com (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf). If you can, all Knowledge skills are class skills for you. If not, take the feat "Open Minded" from the Expanded Psionic Handbook. With your stats, consider the flaw "Noncombatant," as your STR and class make melee a tertiary choice as it is.

You should have 12 skill points to spend at 1st level, which is a little rough but manageable, or 17 if you took Open Minded. If you took Educated, spend 2 in Concentration, 4 in Knowledge: Arcana, 2 in Knowledge: Nature, and 4 in Knowledge: Religion. If you took Open Minded, spend 3 in Concentration, 4 in each of the Knowledges listed above, and 2 in Spellcraft. Remember, if you take Open Minded, Knowledge: Nature and Knowledge: Religion are cross-class skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm) and cost twice as much to level.

Buy a light crossbow, some bolts, a morningstar, and the best armor you can.
buy no armor. Ignore me.

Good 1st level spells to know are Mage Armor and Grease.

2nd Level: Three more skill points, one each for Concentration, Knowledge: Arcana, and Knowledge: Nature.

3rd Level: Three more skill points, spent as at 2nd. If you took Educated, you need spend no more skill points in Knowledge: Nature from here on out. If not, you have 2 more levels to go.

Spell Focus: Illusion is a reasonably solid choice for your feat.

Color Spray is a solid choice for your additional spell. It gives you an offensive spell (of sorts) while staying true to the Illusion/Enchantment theme.

Continue advancing Sorcerer to 6th level. At 9th, start taking Wild Soul. Remember to keep spending skill points on Concentration,Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion, and Knowledge: Nature until you've fulfilled the requirements for the Prestige Classes. After that, it may be best to focus those skill points on Spellcraft or even Bluff, depending on the style of campaign.

Prodan
2010-05-03, 11:19 AM
Levels in Ruathar mean that you don't need to spend a feat on Educated.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 02:12 PM
If this is your first game ever (and it seems like it), you may want to consider playing something easier, like a druid or a barbarian. You can't make lots of mistakes with those.

This is what I did. Don't do it. Building the character is easy--just take Natural Spell at level 6 and you're good. But the massive spell list, the massive Wildshape list, and the animal companion make for a tremendous amount of in-game bookkeeping.

I second the humanity's suggestion of Warlock, and add that Dragonfire Adept would also be good. Both are fairly simple classes to build and play, and you can have a lot of fun with them without breaking the game or anything.

And by the possibly extant gods, don't deal with Incantatrix.

I don't think anybody bothered to explain this, by the way: Metamagic is acquired through various feats (Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, and so on). They increase the level of the spell, making it more difficult to cast; in return, they make it much more powerful. Incantatrix reduces the increased-level cost, and provides a number of situations where you can skip it entirely (as many other people did explain). This practically breaks the game for you.

Flob
2010-05-03, 02:25 PM
Cast magic missile, and nothing but it.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-03, 02:34 PM
Well, he flat-out refused. Seems like his previous game had a Beguiler too who minmaxed. Being the only spellcaster in that game (apart from a cleric who did nothing but teleport, heal, resurrect and turn undead, since it was an undead-themed adventure), it kinda made the other characters redundant and instilled a deep phobia in the DM.


How was a beguiler useful in an undead-heavy game? I'm starting to smell some rank-ass fail.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 02:40 PM
How was a beguiler useful in an undead-heavy game? I'm starting to smell some rank-ass fail.

Mindless creatures don't get a Will Save against illusions, is the ruling that makes it work, I think...in which case, the DM should have been throwing in more intelligent undead. Casters in control of the undead, to Dispel illusions. Et cetera.

Doc Roc
2010-05-03, 06:59 PM
I have an awesome idea.
You can still be a beguiler, just the race-not-the-class!
Shining South, ToC lists them in the magic item section. Because they are that awesome.
They make marvelous sorcerers and superb factotums.

it's not on your allowed booklist though.... ask anyway? I'll come back later and be more helpful.

Sorcerer -> Malconvoker
+
Fiendish Summoning Specialist (Planar Handbook)

Prodan
2010-05-03, 07:00 PM
Mindless creatures don't get a Will Save against illusions, is the ruling that makes it work, I think...

Then how would a sorcerer with an illusion spell or two be less "broken"?

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 07:24 PM
Then how would a sorcerer with an illusion spell or two be less "broken"?

I think you are mistaking me for someone who thinks the beguiler is broken.

Prodan
2010-05-03, 07:28 PM
I think you are mistaking me for someone who thinks the beguiler is broken.

I meant, from the DM's perspective.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 07:33 PM
I meant, from the DM's perspective.

Eh. Maybe he thinks it's okay as long as they don't have access to an entire spell list's worth of illusions. Because, you know, having Silent Image and Disguise self is so much more broken than having two Silent Images. [/sarc]

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 07:38 PM
1st level: Choose a non-lawful alignment. Take the feat Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion), which is required for Divine Oracle. Ask your DM if you can have the feat "Educated", found in the Eberron Campaign Setting and detailed at Crystalkeep.com (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf). If you can, all Knowledge skills are class skills for you. If not, take the feat "Open Minded" from the Expanded Psionic Handbook. With your stats, consider the flaw "Noncombatant," as your STR and class make melee a tertiary choice as it is.

You should have 12 skill points to spend at 1st level, which is a little rough but manageable, or 17 if you took Open Minded. If you took Educated, spend 2 in Concentration, 4 in Knowledge: Arcana, 2 in Knowledge: Nature, and 4 in Knowledge: Religion. If you took Open Minded, spend 3 in Concentration, 4 in each of the Knowledges listed above, and 2 in Spellcraft. Remember, if you take Open Minded, Knowledge: Nature and Knowledge: Religion are cross-class skills (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm) and cost twice as much to level.

Buy a light crossbow, some bolts, a morningstar, and the best armor you can.
buy no armor. Ignore me.

Good 1st level spells to know are Mage Armor and Grease.

2nd Level: Three more skill points, one each for Concentration, Knowledge: Arcana, and Knowledge: Nature.

3rd Level: Three more skill points, spent as at 2nd. If you took Educated, you need spend no more skill points in Knowledge: Nature from here on out. If not, you have 2 more levels to go.

Spell Focus: Illusion is a reasonably solid choice for your feat.

Color Spray is a solid choice for your additional spell. It gives you an offensive spell (of sorts) while staying true to the Illusion/Enchantment theme.

Continue advancing Sorcerer to 6th level. At 9th, start taking Wild Soul. Remember to keep spending skill points on Concentration,Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion, and Knowledge: Nature until you've fulfilled the requirements for the Prestige Classes. After that, it may be best to focus those skill points on Spellcraft or even Bluff, depending on the style of campaign.

Thanks for the tip. How about stat distribution? Also, I'd like to go silent image asap, is that viable?



I don't think anybody bothered to explain this, by the way: Metamagic is acquired through various feats (Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, and so on). They increase the level of the spell, making it more difficult to cast; in return, they make it much more powerful. Incantatrix reduces the increased-level cost, and provides a number of situations where you can skip it entirely (as many other people did explain). This practically breaks the game for you.

THAT'S METAMAGIC? THE WHOLE EXTEND/WIDEN/EMPOWER/MAXIMIZE SPELL STUFF? No wonder it's so broken. Thanks, gonna stay away from incantatrix lest the DM cause a Tarrasque to attack me in my sleep.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 07:46 PM
Thanks for the tip. How about stat distribution? Also, I'd like to go silent image asap, is that viable?

Cha > Int/Con/Dex (build-specific) > Wis > Str. Silent Image is a great spell at any level, but I don't know that I would take it over the other three. Mage Armor keeps you from dying, Grease and Color Spray are simply winners at low level.


THAT'S METAMAGIC? THE WHOLE EXTEND/WIDEN/EMPOWER/MAXIMIZE SPELL STUFF? No wonder it's so broken. Thanks, gonna stay away from incantatrix lest the DM cause a Tarrasque to attack me in my sleep.

Whoa, whoa, calm down. Metamagic itself isn't broken. Just Incantatrix.

Prodan
2010-05-03, 07:51 PM
THAT'S METAMAGIC? THE WHOLE EXTEND/WIDEN/EMPOWER/MAXIMIZE SPELL STUFF? No wonder it's so broken. Thanks, gonna stay away from incantatrix lest the DM cause a Tarrasque to attack me in my sleep.

1. Widen and Extend are not broken.
2. You will be able to kill the Tarrasque.

Sachiru
2010-05-03, 07:55 PM
2. You will be able to kill the Tarrasque.

How?

Also, is this stat distribution okay? Racial bonuses/penalties are not yet factored in.

8 STR
12 DEX
14 CON
13 INT
8 WIS
16 CHA

Prodan
2010-05-03, 07:56 PM
How?

Start by flying. Note how the Tarrasque can't reach you now?

Go up in the air 100 feet and cast Rope Trick. Rest, and plan how to kill the Tarrasque.

Amphetryon
2010-05-03, 08:43 PM
How?

Also, is this stat distribution okay? Racial bonuses/penalties are not yet factored in.

8 STR
12 DEX
14 CON
13 INT
8 WIS
16 CHAKilloren, if that's still your plan, have no stat adjustments.

14 INT will make acquisition of the skills for your prestige classes somewhat easier, at the cost of some HP. That's a risky chance to take, but it can pay off with careful play. Careful play means, among other things, knowing that you should not get into melee, and taking advantage of cover, as often as possible.

That said, 13 INT is sufficient. It's just slower for skills.

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 09:12 PM
How?

Also, is this stat distribution okay? Racial bonuses/penalties are not yet factored in.

8 STR
12 DEX
14 CON
13 INT
8 WIS
16 CHA

Looks good.

Eldariel
2010-05-03, 10:10 PM
Start by flying. Note how the Tarrasque can't reach you now?

Go up in the air 100 feet and cast Rope Trick. Rest, and plan how to kill the Tarrasque.

Totally off-topic but necessary anyways:
Mage's Guide To Slaying Tarrasque

First part of the puzzle was already covered by our friend, Prodan here: Make sure it doesn't reach you. Flight is a great choice. Other options include going Ethereal (that is, jaunting to the coexistent Ethereal Plane, through e.g. Ethereal Jaunt or Etherealness), Incorporeal (that is, a bodiless creature - Ghostform from Spell Compendium does this, among others) or...yeah, even Invisibility is quite good against it as its Spot/Listen suck so it can't really pinpoint you as long as you move silently with any relevant degree of boosters.

Then, actually slaying the beast: Easiest way to kill Big T (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) is to find an Allip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) through Scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm)/Contact Other Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) or whatever, use Control Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlUndead.htm) on it, Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) to Big T and let the Allip at 'em. It's Incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype) (bodiless) so Big T can't harm it (its weapons are only magical (and Epic) for piercing Damage Reduction, no other purposes - as much is stated in its description), it has no trouble hitting Big T's Touch AC (lol) and Big T is only immune to ability damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDamage), not ability drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityDrain) which is what Allips cause. Few hits later, Big T is Wisdom 0 and in comatose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss); then you can go Coup de Grace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#coupdeGrace) it until it rolls 1 on its save and dies, and Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) it to death or whatever (Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) acquired through Candle of Invocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation), Planar Binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarBinding.htm) or whatever to get an Efreet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti)/Noble Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#nobleDjinn)/Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar)/whatever [all have Wish as an SLA]; though you can just leave it there, go adventure and come back to Wish it to death on higher level, as Ability Drain doesn't heal naturally).

A bit harder is using damage spells from whatever protection you chose to hammer at it until it dies (or just make it roll saves against Finger of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fingerOfDeath.htm)/Flesh to Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm)/whatever until it rolls 1 and break it/follow it up with infinite Coup de Graces/whatever to keep it dead, or Wish), though Magic Jar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicJar.htm) and making it your new body (Big T's Will-save isn't the best in the world) is fun too. That does require more work as you gotta beat its SR though, but that's completely doable even in Core in the teens (UMDd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm) Beads of Karma (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#strandofPrayerBeads) for +4, Orange Prism Ioun Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones) for +1, Archmage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm) for Spell Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm#highArcana) for +1, Greater Spell Penetration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterSpellPenetration) for +4, totalling around Level + 10). You could also just Plane Shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm) it to Positive Energy Plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#positiveEnergyPlane) (where it will go through Major Positive Dominant Death By Awesome (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#positiveDominant)) or Elemental Plane of Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#waterDominant) (and Drown (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#drowning); Magical Beasts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#magicalBeastType) need to breathe) or just some hostile Outer Plane where it'll eventually be killed (though that's a bad idea as someone competent may Magic Jar it and then you're dealing with a high-level caster in Tarrasque's body which is notably harder).

Alternatively, spells like Control Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWater.htm) could also be tried to drown it. But yeah, bottomline is, it's not nearly as immortal as it'd like you believe. Attacking its weaknesses: Touch AC, Will-save, Ability Drain lack of any relevant offense - is a good idea. SR can be plowed through (outside Core, there's level 1 True Casting [Complete Mage] which grants +10 to any check to pierce Spell Resistance much like True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm), and level 4 swift action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#swiftActions) Assay Resistance, which will improve your checks against targeted creature's SR by +10 for 1 round/level) and hitting it in its weaknesses, you'll notice it isn't any tougher than your average brute. It just has high attack bonuses, high Fort/Ref saves and lots of HP/Regeneration/Spell Resistance.


Oh, and if we bring high-level magic in game, Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) could get creatures easily able to solo it (like the aforementioned Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) that can e.g. just shoot it with Smiting Arrows until it dies, or a Great Wyrm Gold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#goldDragon) that'll just beat it in its own game if it so feels like and then Wish it to death, or such) with complete control over them, Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) can e.g. turn you into an Allip yourself and drain it out, Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm)-bomb with sufficient number of Explosive Runes on it could just blow it up outright (cast Explosive Runes on your maximum CL, then Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) on minimum CL after throwing the bomb next to it; this means you autofail your Dispel check and as per Explosive Runes-clause, it'll blow up) or a billion more imaginative ways. But yeah.

@Opening Post: You don't need to get or even know all that. It's just...let us say, a taste of what magic can do.

On a completely different topic: If it wasn't emphasized enough, metamagic in and of itself is fine. Indeed, Extend Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell), Quicken Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell) are staples in Wizard's arsenal and if you want to blow something up, you'll really want Metamagic for that too (Energy Admixture, Empower Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell), Split Ray & Twin Spell are all quite efficient). Only thing to know: As a Sorcerer, Metamagicked spells require you a Full-Round Action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#fullRoundActions) to cast so while normally you can move and cast in the same turn, when casting Metamagicked spell, you can't. This also means you can't benefit of Quicken Spell normally. A feat called "Rapid Metamagic" exists in Complete Mage which removes this drawback though (it can't be taken before level 9). And a limited alternative class feature for it exists in Player's Handbook II that trades your Familiar for the ability to cast a Metamagicked spell without increasing the casting time 3+Int (yes, Int) times per day. Oh, and Sorcerer applies metamagic on the fly; that is, you decide if you want to cast a normal Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm) (from level 2 slot) or an Extended Mirror Image (from a level 3 slot) when you cast the spell (you don't need to prepare metamagic beforehand like Wizards) and as such, they increase your versatility comparatively more than for prepared casters.

Also, Metamagic Rods (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods) enable applying a metamagic for free to a spell, and work even if you don't know the Metamagic Feat itself. They are split to 3 levels; Lesser which can be used for spells from level 1 to 3; Normal which works for 1 to 6; and Greater which works from 1 to 9. Those are good investments; Lesser Rod of Extend Spell so your hour/level buffs (like Mage Armor, to take a simple example) last longer, and so you can get 10 min/level spells last through dungeons - Rods of Maximize/Empower/Twin so you can use your highest level attack spell with metamagic to make it even more powerful; and so on. If you take Rapid Metamagic, you can also use Rod of Quicken, and it's indeed one of the great options.


Sorry for the walls of text, but I'm hoping you find them informative, and Tarrasque's mortality amusing (if you bother to read it).

Greenish
2010-05-03, 10:56 PM
Whoa, whoa, calm down. Metamagic itself isn't broken.Well, metamagic isn't any more broken than magic. :smallwink:

Math_Mage
2010-05-03, 11:30 PM
Well, metamagic isn't any more broken than magic. :smallwink:

Metamagicked spells are broken because spells are broken. Reduced metamagic is broken because reducers are broken. In no case is metamagic itself broken. Okay, maybe Invisible Spell.

Sachiru
2010-05-04, 02:54 AM
I see.

How would I go about in general combat? What tactics should I use?

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 03:47 AM
Well, what you wanted, of course. It doesn't hurt that it tends to be the best caster strategy in parties anyways: use illusions, trickery and mind control to disable and use enemies, and protect yourself with the same tools. Let your friends with pointy sticks do the grizzly work for you, though carrying few ranged weapons with you is probably a good idea so you don't have to do "nothing". And don't waste your precious spell slots on single opponents unless they are tough to kill, early on. Later on, go nuts as you have spell slots to spare. Avoid being in melee or attacked overall, but make sure to maximize the number of foes you hit with your spells; in general, if you meet multiple adversaries early on (or particularly tough ones), that's your cue. I'd write you a quick guide, but it's already been done many times.

Take a look at:
Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards: Playing a God (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) and Being Batman: Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002)

Both are Wizard-guides, but they outline the spells that work for your kind of strategy quite perfectly. For Sorcerers, Solo's Stupendously Superior Sorcerer Strategems (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2180.0) seems like an excellent stopping point. The writing style is interesting, but it's also useful.


Overall though, just from Player's Handbook-spells, things that should interest you:
0th Level
- Daze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/daze.htm): A must for a low-level caster, it's basically a combat-usable cantrip on level 1. Very, very useful against Humanoids, when saving your level 1 slots.
- Detect Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm): Very, very useful; locates auras, magic items, invisible people, etc. with some work.
- Mage Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageHand.htm): Telekinesis, even weak one, is useful.
- Message (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/message.htm): Convenient, particularly the "mouthing the word without sound"-use when lacking higher level communication magic.
- Open/Close (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/openClose.htm): Sometimes it's not a good idea to personally be there to open the door in case it blows up, an arrow flies whatever. And sometimes you're just lazy.
- Prestidigitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prestidigitation.htm): The uses are endless. Turn the king's pants blue! Clean up dirt! Make the water taste heavenly! Make the poison tasteless! It's called "mini-Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)" for a reason. Countless problems are solved with simple application of Prestidigitation and some creativity. Also, a lot of hilarity is had.
- Read Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/readMagic.htm): The uses are obvious.

1st Level
- Color Spray (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/colorSpray.htm): Probably the spell you want to pick up 1st; efficient, versatile multitarget disabling spell. Maximize your Charisma and profit. Have your teammates Coup de Grace the enemies once they're stunned.
- Mage Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm): From the first levels, it's probably a good idea to ramp up your AC a bit with this as it'll be your primary defense outside hiding and in general, being elusive, on the first levels. As a Sorcerer, you have enough spell slots to cast this once or twice and still have enough Color Sprays to knock out the tough groups of adversaries.
- Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleep.htm): Longer range version of Color Spray, sort of. Puts enemies to sleep, but the problem is the "1 round" casting time. This means that you not only spend your entire turn casting the spell, but it actually takes until your next turn, meaning enemies get to act before then; any damage you take forces Concentration-check or losing the spell. Still, due to range, a very useful alternative to have in your pocket.
- Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm): Not an illusion or enchantment, but trickery. The great thing here is that while Sleep/Color Spray wane in efficiency as enemies get tougher, Grease is worthwhile even on higher levels. Heck, Tarrasque has trouble with that Balance-check to move! Few things have ranks in Balance and anything without at least 5 ranks is considered flat-footed while balancing so your Rogue can Sneak Attack. Also, Grease yourself if you got grappled, grease the enemy Fighter's weapon to force Reflex-save or dropping it, etc. Uses are endless, get creative!
- Charm Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm): Pretty "duh" considering your focus. Note, it doesn't make their former friends their enemies though. For that you need the much-stronger Dominate Person.
- Silent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm): Your imagination is the limit. Illusions are superb. Something to pick up a bit later, once every one of your slots isn't taken by something absolutely pivotal.
- True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm): Higher level choice; not impressive early on, but once your other level 1 spells get worse, pick this to ensure your Touch Attacks hit, to ignore concealment-based miss chances and such.
- Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm): Speaking of Rays, this is the first useful Ray. People carrying lots of stuff can become completely unable to move, and they will definitely slow down, Fighter-types will suffer serious issues with their martial prowess, etc.
- Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm): Mage Armor's much-shorter-duration little brother.
- Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm): Very convenient buff spell; boosts saves, AC and most importantly, blocks all (regardless of alignment) mental control on the subject. Your very first counter to your own gameplan. Take it or leave it depending on what the other casters are doing and whether you intend on buffing up the party at a point or not.
- Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm): Very useful buff in combat; again, something to pick up on higher levels.
- Magic Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm): Eventually grows into a decent reliable damage when you need to absolutely deal few points. Key tool against incorporeals.


So, I'd start off with the following payload:
Level 0:
Daze
Detect Magic
Mage Hand
Prestidigitation

Level 1:
Color Spray
Mage Armor


Yeah, you could pick up Grease instead of Color Spray to ensure you have useful attack options, and since on level 1, Mage Armor is quite the drain on your resources (especially if you adventure more than 1 hour each day; Mage Armor is mostly good when you can expect encounters, like when entering a hostile group's building or a dungeon) so if you expect to ride a lot and get ambushed or such, Grease may be better.

Oh yeah, and get a Crossbow and a Sling for your armament. Don't carry too much ammo for encumbrance reasons. This guarantees you have toys to hit both, Zombies and Skeletons which are resistant to your magic (though not Grease).


Later on, pick up Grease, Sleep/Silent Image and eventually move onto the other spells. On level 2, spells to consider first:
- Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm): Awesome control-spell whenever you can cast it. Few creatures on this level are ever getting outta there so they're out of the battle even if they succeed the save. Then you can leave them there or torch the Web and finish them with readied actions with the party.
- Pyrotechnics (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pyrotechnics.htm): Great way to blind opponents. Blind opponents have 50% miss chance, need huge listen-checks to locate people, move at ˝ speed, take -2 to AC in addition to always being flat-footed (denied Dex-bonus to AC), unable to use targeted spells and so on. Basically, blind people are screwed. Use with Bullseye Lantern (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#lanternBullseye) to best effect (having allies to close eyes on a code word helps too). And the Smoke Cloud-version is very useful too, for blocking sight, weakening people in an area, etc.
- Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm): Remember what I said about Blinding being good? Yeah. Oh, and this reveals the Invisibles you located with Detect Magic too.
- Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm): Short duration, but one of the best defensive spells in the game, period. Makes you devilishly hard to hit regardless of the attacker's attack bonus and only True Seeing (a level 7 spell with an expensive material component) avails them. Something to cast when you're expecting a tough battle.
- Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm): Uhh, you're invisible? Nuff said.
- False Life (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/falseLife.htm): Something to pick up later for extra HP. Notice hour/level duration.


Out of these, you don't want both, Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics since they do much the same thing; prolly pick Glitterdust for revealing Invisibles. And...yeah. That's about as far as it makes sense to go right now as you're many, many levels off level 3 spells.

Sachiru
2010-05-04, 05:13 AM
Thanks for the gameplay tips.

Another short question, the levels in Divine Oracle are for??? What does a Divine Oracle do?

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 09:36 PM
Thanks for the gameplay tips.

Another short question, the levels in Divine Oracle are for??? What does a Divine Oracle do?

Gains you some prescience-related abilities. Basically, your Divination-spells (spells used to gather information like Contact Other Plane, See Invisibility and so on) are cast at higher caster level, you gain the ability to dodge explosions entirely with successful Reflex-save like Rogue with Evasion and such.

Mostly, it's there because it's better than default Sorcerer, that gets nothing beyond spells (this gets spells and small bonuses).

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-04, 09:57 PM
If we have a n00b on our hands, perhaps psionics would be easier to learn. I mean, everyone knows how Magic Points work in video games, right?

Psionics is also harder to screw up.

Sachiru
2010-05-07, 07:37 AM
Sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I have a kinda related question to ask the masters of the forum.

Given that I'd like to play as a heavy on illusion and fear caster, and these restrictions


10 ECL
32 point buy
HP will be full
No limits on LA, but no LA buyouts are allowed
Maximum of 1 flaw and 1 trait

Gear
+2 weapon or +1 weapon with +1 enhancement
+2 armor or +1 armor with +1 enhancement
one +4 or two +2 ability enhancing items
2 rings, no more than 6,000 gp each
2 minor wondrous items
2 potions valued at no more than 300 gp
2000gp for anything else you want, NOTE: if you don't buy it here or get it above you don't have it

Books
Core books
Completes
Races books
Eberron books
Forgotten Realms
Heroes of Battle
Tome of Battle
Underdark
Storm/sand/frost
Lords of Madness
Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium
Underdark
Draconomicon
PHBII
Crystal Keep (everything from that site except for the parts that come from Dragon or Dungeon magazines which are marked by DR### or DU###)
Dandwiki.com 3.5 SRD


If I went for Beguiler (as you guys originally suggested), how should I go building things?

By the way, if it helps, I'm planning to roleplay a Joker (not the ignorant fool type, the Batman's Heath Ledger type) in an arena-type game.

Amphetryon
2010-05-07, 07:39 AM
Thanks for the gameplay tips.

Another short question, the levels in Divine Oracle are for??? What does a Divine Oracle do?
Evasion, plus the Domain.

Sachiru
2010-05-07, 09:40 AM
Shameless thread bump.

Aharon
2010-05-07, 10:14 AM
I'm a bit confused. In your first post, you said LA+1 max, now it is any LA allowed? If any opponent in this arena fight is a **** and abuses this, you might be in trouble.

Eldariel
2010-05-07, 05:37 PM
With Beguiler in an arena settings, you'll simply want Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Beguiler +4, taking Mindsight-feat [Lords of Madness] on the Mindbender levels and fitting Darkstalker-feat [Lords of Madness] in your normal progression and getting some source of Hide in Plain Sight (e.g. "Dark creature"-Template [Tome of Magic] or Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis-item [Tome of Magic], that gives you the template). Though you can just cast enough Fogs and such to generate sufficient Concealment for hiding.

Then maximize your ability to avoid being seen and then bombard your opponent with various Save-or-X spells (it'll take some digging to find non-Will save targeting ones though), Dispels if they have protections on (Dispel Magic on their equipment can disable said equipment, for one), Solid Fog to stall them out and yeah...I'm sure it counts as victory if you turn your opponent into a mindslave. If you can use the PHBII variant "Eclectic Learning" for your Advanced Learnings, that would be very convenient for learning some Fort save-or-X or some seed spell like Combust to make exploding opponents easier.


And for good spells, stuff like Legion of Sentinels, Feeblemind, Glitterdust, Suggestion, Dominate Person, Hold Monster, etc. Carry a scythe around for cutting peoples' heads off with Coup de Grace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#coupdeGrace) after they can't defend themselves.

But yeah, Mindbender gives you Telepathy which allows you to take Mindsight. Mindsight is a nonvisual sense that enables you to locate creatures with intellect and deducting their intelligence. This is extremely convenient as there are no real means of masking the mind on these levels so in your Fogs and such, opponents don't know where you are but you'll always locate them.

Then you use Beguiler's Surprise Casting and Silent Spell and such to land various spells on the opponent until one sticks. Especially area-spells like Glitterdust to further disable opponent are good as they don't require line of sight or effect to fucntion.