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Jeff240sx
2010-05-03, 10:12 AM
Hi all,

I'm running a game where, at level 9, the Duskblade is just so far ahead - damagewise - and the annoying Swordsage isn't really afraid for it's life, knowing that he can't really be held in place by any reasonable means.

So, the Duskblade is STR20, BAB 9, Knowledge Devotion, Arcane Strike and Vamp Touch for 1d12 + 5str + 3devotion + 9d6 (vamp) + 2d4arcane strike, some Power Attack and averaging like 50 damage per strike.
Strikes almost always hit from his +9 BAB, +5str, +2devotion + 2arcane strike.

No saves really. Just gobs of damage.

The swordsage is full of touch attacks with no saves, or damage + save or suck.
I'm bothered that maneuvers don't provoke AoOs, don't really know what I can do about them. He can meditate to regain maneuvers while grappled and taking damage. So he swaps a readied maneuver with the Teleport/Invisible move if he's stuck or grappled. Any time there's an open door or so, he has a way out.

So he's never really afraid of consequences of doing something stupid, then gets upset when a mook closes the door on him.

The Beguiler is a pain to deal with, but at least it's methods give monsters a save, or at least require creativity to overcome. Damage-wise, she's vastly overshadowed.

I'm unsure how to mitigate the damage, force saves on pure incoming damage, or provide creatures that can handle a few rounds with them - that aren't completely and utterly lethal to the party.

Any suggestions would be great.

Aharon
2010-05-03, 10:19 AM
If you don't mind using houserules, I propose Oslecamo's exellent take (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179&highlight=leader+unit) on the Mob template from DMGII. Lots and lots of hit points, but comparatively low on damage, so it doesn't instagib them. And they have a nice feeling when they succeed at killing over 100 orcs, instead of it being a boring grind.

Gnaeus
2010-05-03, 12:28 PM
With an optimized party, a good place to start might be giving all enemy monsters max hp, without adjusting CR or loot.

subject42
2010-05-03, 12:36 PM
I have been running into a similar problem with my party. I've been moving some fights into unforgiving environments and making the enemies more intelligent.

It only takes one underwater fight against a Lammia with a swim speed and water breathing to make the players a little more cautious.

Aharon
2010-05-03, 12:42 PM
Heh. My players were rather pissed at me when the lair of the dragon they had sought out was filled with water. Although I had provided clues (Black Dragon in a swamp) :smallbiggrin:

Cogidubnus
2010-05-03, 01:48 PM
Heh. My players were rather pissed at me when the lair of the dragon they had sought out was filled with water. Although I had provided clues (Black Dragon in a swamp) :smallbiggrin:

This would make one of my players wet himself with humour if I tried to integrate it into the next dungeon I plan (I tend to plan 3-5 levels ahead). He's taking a homebrew prestige class I built for fun (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151251) so water? Fine.

I've had a similar problem in that I started running my first 3.5 campaign and my encounters got steamrollered by a fairly unoptimised party. Myself, I'd get lots of surprise rounds, with obvious places to escape to (a chokepoint to pull back to, a ledge to teleport to and meditate) but trap them all. Also, vampires. My saving grace in this first adventure I described was a drow vampire ranger 5, with 4 undead HD. CR about 10 (lvl 7 party) but he was a right pain. Dominate, darkness, CON damage, negative levels. Really had them on the ropes.

Darcand
2010-05-03, 02:27 PM
Before I begin, is any of this really a problem? Your players put a descent amount of time, thought, and effort into crafting these characters to be very good at the things at which they are so very good. There is nothing wrong letting them enjoy it.

The biggest issue I see is not making the beguiler useless, it can be extremely difficult building an encounter to be challenging for a high damage PC that's not impossible for a lower damage party member.

I might also throw them up against glass cannons, NPCs that can be swiftly taken down, but deal tremendous damage in the process, thereby forcing the PCs to choose between killing an enemy and defending themselves.

Fast healing/ regeneration might be useful for you too. Monsters that can get chopped in half two or three times and recover.

And of course, Mindflayers.

marjan
2010-05-03, 02:54 PM
So, the Duskblade is STR20, BAB 9, Knowledge Devotion, Arcane Strike and Vamp Touch for 1d12 + 5str + 3devotion + 9d6 (vamp) + 2d4arcane strike, some Power Attack and averaging like 50 damage per strike.
Strikes almost always hit from his +9 BAB, +5str, +2devotion + 2arcane strike.

No saves really. Just gobs of damage.


One thing to do is notice that Vampiric touch is only 1d6/2 levels. Other than that, throw multiple weaker opponents. Duskblades are good vs. single opponents.


He can meditate to regain maneuvers while grappled and taking damage. So he swaps a readied maneuver with the Teleport/Invisible move if he's stuck or grappled. Any time there's an open door or so, he has a way out.

He spends action doing practically nothing. You should be able to make him regret it.



The Beguiler is a pain to deal with, but at least it's methods give monsters a save, or at least require creativity to overcome. Damage-wise, she's vastly overshadowed.

Damage isn't what beguilers do. They are supposed to screw over enemies.


I might also throw them up against glass cannons, NPCs that can be swiftly taken down, but deal tremendous damage in the process, thereby forcing the PCs to choose between killing an enemy and defending themselves.

By definition glass-cannons are easier to kill than defend against, so there really is only one choice here - kill them as quickly as possible.

Il_Vec
2010-05-03, 03:08 PM
Do they have any means of recursive healing?

I mean, I'd throw 2 or 3 encounters with swift hunters / range-attack-using enemies to wear their hitpoints/spells down, follow with one encounter with a high-resistance brute, and then finally end the day with the really important/challenging/plot-related encounter, one that would most likely be easier if dealt via the beguiler's abilities...

Eldariel
2010-05-03, 03:10 PM
If you feel they aren't being challenged properly, it may be interesting to use some opponent spellcasters and martial adepts; it's quite easy to negate individual hits through e.g. Wings of Cover [RoD], Greater Mirror Image [PHBII] or Lesser Celerity [PHBII]-spells, or Baffling Defense/Shifting Defense/Wall of Blades/Scorpion Parry-type maneuvers/stances. This would give the damage machines something to think about, and yet simple full attacks would work just fine.

And opponent isn't countering them for free, but using resources; it's simply a matter of negating the impact of the big hits. As for Beguiler, well, Beguilers don't deal damage. They disable enemies. Your opponent's HP total doesn't matter if he's sleeping or even blind (that doesn't kill, but it does make fighting a pain; you need Listen-checks to even figure where opponents are and if they move after attacking, that becomes almost impossible; and a blind guy is flat-footed and opponents get further +2 to attacks), and that's before the Beguiler drops stuff like Confusion to make them attack each other or Solid Fog to take multiples entirely out of the fight for many turns or so on.

If you wonder how to deal with him, well, some monsters have True Seeing, others have non-visual senses and such, and some are hard to affect with mind-affecting. He'll never be useless, but there are ways to challenge him with creatures that don't play into his strengths.


Damage isn't power; it's just one of the many convenient ways of disposing with things, but not the one Beguiler uses practically ever. Beguiler specializes in different fighting. As such, I wouldn't be worried; Beguiler's player no doubt knows that when he picked the class, he picked a different, more efficient fighting style.

And what the Duskblade and Swordsage are doing is par de course for these levels. Don't be alarmed; it's just D&D. That's how the game works; you'd think fights would get longer by level, but actually, damage grows just as fast as HP does so only thing that changes is the amount of available ways to mitigate opponent's attacks.

As for the Swordsage, point out beforehand that creatures capable of catching up with him and killing him do exist, and that he might consider being more careful. E.g. Anticipate Teleport-spell [SC] can really ruin his day. And honestly, grappling became obsolete many levels ago. What works are save-targeting effects that prevent him from acting, and damage. Yes, enough damage to threaten his life; that should give him a ringer.


But I don't get why all of this is a problem. Of course Swordsages are capable of recovering their maneuvers and of course Duskblades deal a lot of damage. Swordsages are versatile and hard to pin down; that's what the classes do! And Beguilers are very hard to pin down and capable of destroying opposition without even touching them.

I think you're simply alarmed by what a D&D character is capable of on level 9. It's different from 1st level play; that's par de course. Opposition gets equally brutal. That too is par de course; it's just a matter of monsters having class levels occasionally, and using monsters with strong inherent abilities.

Flickerdart
2010-05-03, 03:13 PM
Miss chances. They might be able to hit the AC, but they still have a 50% chance to miss the enemy. Incorporeal opponents are a ready source of this. Send a few Shadows at them, Spring Attacking from the walls to drain STR and retreat into the wall.

Eldariel
2010-05-03, 03:14 PM
Miss chances. They might be able to hit the AC, but they still have a 50% chance to miss the enemy. Incorporeal opponents are a ready source of this. Send a few Shadows at them, Spring Attacking from the walls to drain STR and retreat into the wall.

Duskblade does have Quickened True Strikes for that though. It would definitely hurt the swordsage.

marjan
2010-05-03, 03:23 PM
Duskblade does have Quickened True Strikes for that though. It would definitely hurt the swordsage.

Having 50% chance that attack fails against incorporeal creature isn't miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target, so true strike won't help.

Eldariel
2010-05-03, 03:25 PM
Having 50% chance that attack fails against incorporeal creature isn't miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target, so true strike won't help.

Fair enough. I recalled True Strike was worded like Seeking.

Jeff240sx
2010-05-03, 03:31 PM
If you feel they aren't being challenged properly, it may be interesting to use some opponent spellcasters and martial adepts; it's quite easy to negate individual hits through e.g. Wings of Cover [RoD], Greater Mirror Image [PHBII] or Lesser Celerity [PHBII]-spells, or Baffling Defense/Shifting Defense/Wall of Blades/Scorpion Parry-type maneuvers/stances. This would give the damage machines something to think about, and yet simple full attacks would work just fine.

And opponent isn't countering them for free, but using resources; it's simply a matter of negating the impact of the big hits. As for Beguiler, well, Beguilers don't deal damage. They disable enemies. Your opponent's HP total doesn't matter if he's sleeping or even blind (that doesn't kill, but it does make fighting a pain; you need Listen-checks to even figure where opponents are and if they move after attacking, that becomes almost impossible; and a blind guy is flat-footed and opponents get further +2 to attacks), and that's before the Beguiler drops stuff like Confusion to make them attack each other or Solid Fog to take multiples entirely out of the fight for many turns or so on.

If you wonder how to deal with him, well, some monsters have True Seeing, others have non-visual senses and such, and some are hard to affect with mind-affecting. He'll never be useless, but there are ways to challenge him with creatures that don't play into his strengths.


Damage isn't power; it's just one of the many convenient ways of disposing with things, but not the one Beguiler uses practically ever. Beguiler specializes in different fighting. As such, I wouldn't be worried; Beguiler's player no doubt knows that when he picked the class, he picked a different, more efficient fighting style.

And what the Duskblade and Swordsage are doing is par de course for these levels. Don't be alarmed; it's just D&D. That's how the game works; you'd think fights would get longer by level, but actually, damage grows just as fast as HP does so only thing that changes is the amount of available ways to mitigate opponent's attacks.

As for the Swordsage, point out beforehand that creatures capable of catching up with him and killing him do exist, and that he might consider being more careful. E.g. Anticipate Teleport-spell [SC] can really ruin his day. And honestly, grappling became obsolete many levels ago. What works are save-targeting effects that prevent him from acting, and damage. Yes, enough damage to threaten his life; that should give him a ringer.


But I don't get why all of this is a problem. Of course Swordsages are capable of recovering their maneuvers and of course Duskblades deal a lot of damage. Swordsages are versatile and hard to pin down; that's what the classes do! And Beguilers are very hard to pin down and capable of destroying opposition without even touching them.

I think you're simply alarmed by what a D&D character is capable of on level 9. It's different from 1st level play; that's par de course. Opposition gets equally brutal. That too is par de course; it's just a matter of monsters having class levels occasionally, and using monsters with strong inherent abilities.

With all due respect, I understand that Duskblades do damage. That's what they do, and pretty much all they can do. I don't really have issue with that - I was looking more at ways to force saves or soak damage.

The swordsage, really, I'm just miffed at how stupid the class is. Somehow meditating is less disadvantageous than casting a spell, and meditating does not provoke AoOs as written. Grappled? Meditate. On fire? Meditate.
Combined with it's Monk armor bonus in light armor, it's the highest-AC character and I can usually only hit it's 26AC a fraction of the time.

And the beguiler seems to do enough damage with her dominated rogue at party level -2. Combine that with her Friend to Foe - she's had two piles of minions kill themselves off while the party killed whoever wasn't fighting it's ally, or focus the leader of the group. And when the Ogre was finally going to beat her brains in with a stick, a simple Halt prevented that.

I have thought of maxing monster HP, and I did that once for a published adventure, The Tower of Lore. Well.. the Bodak killed two people who rolled a 1 and 3 on saves :sadface:

As far as wings of cover, miss chance - it's interesting that this was brought up. My BBEG Swiftblade - who I'm sure will become Dominated at some point in it's life, is the only thing capable of fighting them, and has won twice while sustaining little damage.

Guess I'm just pouting about my last session. I don't think anyone was in fear of their lives, while I was throwing deadly CL+3 encounters at them. The double-edged sword is the loot that the enemies need to use to live/hit the group would rocket their WBL, and the CL+3 stuff is making them nearly level each session (3 or so encounters).
I'll just keep trying to balance lethality and duration, or just making more badguys to fight - because they're the only things that can give any semblance of difficulty.

Eldariel
2010-05-03, 03:45 PM
Guess I'm just pouting about my last session. I don't think anyone was in fear of their lives, while I was throwing deadly CL+3 encounters at them. The double-edged sword is the loot that the enemies need to use to live/hit the group would rocket their WBL, and the CL+3 stuff is making them nearly level each session (3 or so encounters).
I'll just keep trying to balance lethality and duration, or just making more badguys to fight - because they're the only things that can give any semblance of difficulty.

Important question: What stuff are you using? 'cause opponents directly from the Monster Manual 1 in particular aren't going to be worth the CR they're printed on unless they have natural spellcasting or belong to the list of "under-CRd for awesome boss battles"-creatures. And beyond Monster Manual I, CR tends to get even more volatile and as such, at best a rough guideline.

And CR doesn't account for action advantage meaning a higher CR monster is often either a murder or a corpse; murder if it can't really be affected by what the PCs have, and corpse if it can, since 3 guys means 3xactions, which will **** all but the best defended creatures.

Instead, I suggest numerically seeing how the challenge matches up to the PCs' numbers and if it's around there, using it. It's generally a fair game, especially since your PCs are decently strong and as such, can pump up their numeric capabilities if necessary and generate a strategically favorable environment.


So yeah, if you're using MM CRs, I suggest switching out feats for some more interesting stuff and using strategic advantage against the PCs. Greathorn Minotaurs [MMIV] Spring Attacking from within ground is pretty tough to deal with, for example. Same with various Incorporeals. And Flyby Attacking casters with e.g. immediate action countermagic can severely inconvenience such a party.

And simple other martial adepts and such; a Stone Giant Warblade 2 can suddenly really put on the hurt thanks to its base initiator level of 8. Hust the two levels gives it access to level 5 stuff. It's a CR 10, and fully capable of hitting AC 26 on 2. And if it fails, it can just use a touch attack, and it doesn't need any magic equipment for any of this. Power Attack for 12 (with a two-hander), Emerald Razor and see what happens; that's a touch attack at ~+10 or so. And it can buff up its AC and saves with maneuvers + stances as necessary. Or maybe make a Bloodstorm Blade and have a pair engage them at range. And that is to say nothing of spellcasters.

lsfreak
2010-05-03, 03:48 PM
Guess I'm just pouting about my last session. I don't think anyone was in fear of their lives, while I was throwing deadly CL+3 encounters at them. The double-edged sword is the loot that the enemies need to use to live/hit the group would rocket their WBL, and the CL+3 stuff is making them nearly level each session (3 or so encounters).
I'll just keep trying to balance lethality and duration, or just making more badguys to fight - because they're the only things that can give any semblance of difficulty.

CR is a trap. Ignore it. Don't give out XP as the book says to, but why what a 'challenge' is supposed to be. If something was challenging, no matter what 'CR' the party faced, treat it as roughly a party-equal challenge rating for experience. If it was barely a win, treat it as party level +3 challenge rating. If they steamrolled it, it's below the party.

As for making the monsters tougher, Incarnum, DFA, binders, psions, and many Vancian casters can still be tough without using their full allotted wealth. Another option is to up toughness without upping damage output, if you're afraid of it being too much - take existing monsters and add DR, miss chance, significant self-healing, and so on, using existing rules (feat to take Child of Shadows, for example) or just saying 'this monster is different.'