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View Full Version : Players robbing merchants, what do you do about it?



Closak
2010-05-03, 12:16 PM
Like the title says, what do you do about this problem?

I know of two occurences where trying to do this went extremely badly for the players.


The first one: Turns out the merchant they were trying to rob was actually the BBEG in disguise, there to sell stuff to them to make them stronger in order to advance his master plan and make a profit at the same time.
Then they try to rob him.
He proceeds to unleash curbstomp on them.
To be fair, they did blow the BBEG's cover in the process of getting murdered.
And screw up the Xanatos Gambit he had going.

They were fine for the first three robberies, it was only when they tried to rob a fourth guy that happened.

DM: You really sure you want to do that? *Looks at notes that details that this specific merchant is the BBEG*
Players: Sure, why not? It went well the last three times!
DM: ...Your loss.


The second one: The merchant was a god who had gotten bored and decided to mess around on the mortal world a little.
So he took up the role of a traveling merchant.
When the players tried to rob him THIS happened as a result (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/09/19/episode-1174-oh-thats-what/)
That's what happens when you try to rob the wrong person, should have gone after the guy in the next stall over instead...but how were they supposed to know that?

Good thing for me i wasn't involved in either incident...

Learnedguy
2010-05-03, 12:21 PM
Ever played Spelunky?

Ranos
2010-05-03, 12:21 PM
You don't need to pull diabolus ex machina to stop robberies. Sure, the players can rob the local baker blind with total impunity, but they'll get more out of the average dungeon crawl.

Any merchant rich and powerful enough to sell things the players may actually want - that is, magic items - will also be rich and powerful enough to protect himself, most likely with the help of those magic items. Spell turrets, traps, wards, guards, constructs...

Not that robbing such a merchant should be impossible. Far from it. It should be an adventure just like another, bribing the right people, getting the password to the force ward from the drunken guard, stealing the keys, etc.

Vizzerdrix
2010-05-03, 12:21 PM
A few chests of those beetles that look like gold coins, along with gem scarabs. And those chests, either pet mimics or homunculus.

Bucky
2010-05-03, 12:22 PM
Simple answer: Merchants start hiring high-level, well coordinated mercenaries as guards
Answer with setup: The players eventually end up trying to rob a caravan that's carrying a shipment of magical military goods and get UMD'd hard
Complex answer:Both of the above in the same caravan

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-03, 12:22 PM
If the players get too much into the habit of robbing merchants ...

Step 1: Confiscate their character sheets.
Step 2: Say "we're going to play a one-shot game tonight. Make character of level N" (where N is their previous level plus 2)
Step 3: Start the game with "Well, there's a group of bandits robbing poor traveling merchants; your group of mercenaries was hired to hunt them down and bring them to justice"

TheThan
2010-05-03, 12:26 PM
You don't need to pull diabolus ex machina to stop robberies. Sure, the players can rob the local baker blind with total impunity, but they'll get more out of the average dungeon crawl.

Any merchant rich and powerful enough to sell things the players may actually want - that is, magic items - will also be rich and powerful enough to protect himself, most likely with the help of those magic items. Spell turrets, traps, wards, guards, constructs...

Not that robbing such a merchant should be impossible. Far from it. It should be an adventure just like another, bribing the right people, getting the password to the force ward from the drunken guard, stealing the keys, etc.

Exactly it should come off like an episode of Mission: Impossible, or an ocean’s movie or some such. Nothing as simple as “we take his stuff”.

Closak
2010-05-03, 12:39 PM
It should be mentioned that both incidents were supposedly going to be plot points later on in the campaign.

But when the players robbed them it forced the BBEG/God to act against them prematurely.
Which led to horrible results.

Death by premature plot points they were not yet ready to handle simply put.


I'm going to pull a comparison here.
You know how in some video games you can go to areas you are not supposed to go to yet, resulting in the monsters there killing you instantly?

For example if in Final Fantasy 2 you go in the wrong direction on the world map early in the game you end up with end-game level enemies gnawing on your corpse (It's happened to me when i tried exploring in the opposite direction from where i was supposed to go)

That's pretty much what happened there.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 12:43 PM
And make sure they deal with the consequences, too. Unless they're all Spymasters, any merchant wealthy enough to be worth stealing from will be able to track them down.

Gnaeus
2010-05-03, 12:44 PM
It depends on campaign assumptions. Keep it realistic to your world.

If you play in a world where PCs are small fish and characters of their level and higher are common, they will eventually fail. The first merchant might have some CR appropriate guards. The second might have stepped up defenses. Then a merchants guild will have them hunted down, or a good church will send paladins and clerics to smite them, or the kingdom's ruler will ask his mage friend to scry and die the criminals.

If you play in a world where PCs are the big fish, you let them succeed, and deal with the consequences of their actions. Merchants stop selling magic items in the kingdom where the PCs live. They will be confronted by waves of guards and NPCs, which they will beat, until the kingdom collapses. While they were crushing the defenders of civilization, monsters ran the show, and now the PCs have to deal with monstergeddon, but everyone they meet will see them as the bad guys and no one will help them. In this kind of campaign, the PCs could just as easily be taking over the kingdom themselves. They just chose to spend their time poorly.

Flickerdart
2010-05-03, 12:46 PM
Deny them merchants. They've raided the Magic Item Mart too many times? No more Magic Item Mart.

valadil
2010-05-03, 12:59 PM
The bigger the reward, the better the defenses. Let them hit a non magical weapons shop. If they go for level appropriate weapons, let them slaughter some guards to earn their keep. If they're going for +5 gear at level 6, show no mercy and kill them appropriately.

Heists are fun to play and plan. You shouldn't deny them to the players just to enforce WBL. But your players should always be evaluating risk vs reward.

And make sure there are consequences! If the players loot a magic mart and get away clean, good for them. They earned it. But every other merchant who hears about it is going to double their defenses. If the players try to use the same trick twice, punish them.

Thrawn183
2010-05-03, 12:59 PM
Either the stuff at the merchants is of too little value to be worth stealing, or they can afford decent protection.

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 01:05 PM
To be fair, they did blow the BBEG's cover in the process of getting murdered.

Sounds like their cunning plan went off without a hitch. :smalltongue:

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-03, 01:06 PM
I usually call the police.

Or did you mean Player Characters robbing merchants?

obnoxious
sig

jiriku
2010-05-03, 01:13 PM
As a point of good DMing, when players blunder into an NPC (or attempt to rob!) who is greatly superior to them, I try to give them a clear heads-up so they can choose to exit gracefully, and when they're in a fight they can't win, I always leave the exit door open so they can at least attempt to retreat. What does it profit to kill all the PCs and end the campaign prematurely? Then I'd have to throw away all my hard work and start over with a new campaign.

OldFart
2010-05-03, 01:17 PM
Step 3: Start the game with "Well, there's a group of bandits robbing poor traveling merchants; your group of mercenaries was hired to hunt them down and bring them to justice"Basically this.

How about: A Merchant Guild hires the party to bring down another merchant-robbing band of PCs. There's lots of loot to be gained from the "bad guys," just the same as any quest. But as a "unique element" of this quest, the Merchant Guild will cast divinations post-completion, and award "bonuses" based upon a) how painful the deaths of the targets were b) how impossible raise dead/resurrections are c) how completely and utterly hosed the targets are/were before/after being killed. The guild encourages the party to do their absolute worst, and spares no expense in motivation. Because this isn't about the money for the Merchant Guild. No, it's about sending a message. So, yeah, they're offering an economic incentive for the Familicide spell, or as close to it as the party can possibly get. Now, after the party returns to collect their dough, the clerk making the payout mentions that what the targets did to deserve such over-the-top wrath was steal from Merchant Guild members one less time than the party did, and then they refused to return the stolen items and/or make amends when the Merchant Guild asked them nicely. The Merchants Guild, BTW, is now asking the party nicely.

Failing that, whaddaya think Assassin's guilds are for, anyway?

Morty
2010-05-03, 01:21 PM
I agree with the people suggesting that they should be hunted down by a higher-level group of good guys or mercenaries. I mean, that's what adventurers are for - dealing with threats regular people can't handle. It's the players' fault they decided to reduce their characters to being such a threat. :smalltongue:

DragonBaneDM
2010-05-03, 01:26 PM
If the players get too much into the habit of robbing merchants ...

Step 1: Confiscate their character sheets.
Step 2: Say "we're going to play a one-shot game tonight. Make character of level N" (where N is their previous level plus 2)
Step 3: Start the game with "Well, there's a group of bandits robbing poor traveling merchants; your group of mercenaries was hired to hunt them down and bring them to justice"

I REALLY LIKE THIS!!!

Superglucose
2010-05-03, 01:30 PM
I'd like to add something:

The more the PCs manage to steal, the more EXP they should get for the heist. Why? WBL. Why in terms of non-fourth-wall-breaking? The better the heist, the more difficult the heist, the more they learned.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 01:30 PM
As a point of good DMing, when players blunder into an NPC (or attempt to rob!) who is greatly superior to them, I try to give them a clear heads-up so they can choose to exit gracefully, and when they're in a fight they can't win, I always leave the exit door open so they can at least attempt to retreat. What does it profit to kill all the PCs and end the campaign prematurely? Then I'd have to throw away all my hard work and start over with a new campaign.

Ideally, you don't kill them. You do something like get them imprisoned and then have the king request that they work for him in exchange for their freedom. Plot hooks abound!

Piedmon_Sama
2010-05-03, 01:57 PM
If you play in a world where PCs are the big fish, you let them succeed, and deal with the consequences of their actions. Merchants stop selling magic items in the kingdom where the PCs live. They will be confronted by waves of guards and NPCs, which they will beat, until the kingdom collapses. While they were crushing the defenders of civilization, monsters ran the show, and now the PCs have to deal with monstergeddon, but everyone they meet will see them as the bad guys and no one will help them. In this kind of campaign, the PCs could just as easily be taking over the kingdom themselves. They just chose to spend their time poorly.

Yeah, this is pretty much what I do. The players, no matter how powerful, are ultimately just four-to-six blokes and will have to rely upon the help of others at some point, whether it's coerced or not. Even if they can overpower virtually any challenge society can throw at them, sooner or later they'll get sick of having to fight and intimidate or fight for everything.

IME it's usually when they're mulching the third wave of lowly warriors and feeling bored that they start thinking this whole "make the setting our bitch!" idea wasn't so hot.

Darcand
2010-05-03, 02:03 PM
When your players throw you for a loop you don't restrain them, you roll with it.

If you have a group of PCs who enjoy robbing merchants then you ditch your original plans and let them. Provide a hideout, patrols of rangers to fight, information on caravan schedules, rival groups of bandits and monsters with which to vie over the same stretch of valley. And who doesn't love it when the merchant's guild hires a notorious bounty hunter (They say he's killed more folks then small pox!) to deal with them, or the church of (whomever your patron deity of travelers might be, or of extremely lawful evil tyrants) sends forth a band of clerics to harshly open the roads.

Start watching westerns and read up on Jesse James and the like.

Nightson
2010-05-03, 02:08 PM
Well you can be passive aggressive and try and make the character's lives hell because they aren't going down a path you like.

Or you could just ask them why they're doing it.

I mean, maybe they just plain like the idea of being criminals, maybe they're having a lot of fun, if so, don't stomp on it, encourage it.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-03, 02:14 PM
Consequences. Reasonable, realistic consequences. If they are part of any guilds, their licenses are revoked. Shop owners and innkeepers refuse to do business with them and are likely to call city guard, as is any who recognise them on the street.. Now, the groups are likely able to slaughter such with ease but now Bards sing of their knavery in taverns, attracting other adventurers to come and slaughter the villains. Specific groups are hired by the crown to take them out. Now former allies start avoiding dealing with them, and may even try to turn them in. Even family members may reject them. Soon they are alone in the world, hedged in at every side. They can't sell treasure, they can't buy items and they are possibly wanted for treason (assault on the crowns constabulary may be the same as assault on the crown).
In short, things are quite FUBAR for our jolly band of adventurers.

gdiddy
2010-05-03, 02:16 PM
Roll a d4 when the characters hold up the caravan.

On a 4, the Wizard 20 that was in the lead cart casts time stop. You just lost.

On a 3, The Gold Elder Drake Caravan Company is named that for a reason. Roll Will and Reflex. Then Initiative.

On a 2, the only person who can buy the stuff in the carriages in the BBEG. All is going according to plan.

On a 1, there is a powerful artifact that replaces the HD of any creature that holds it has with monk levels. They don't notice anything is wrong, until they go to use their class abilities. Give them their new sheet the following session. Taste their tears. Delicious.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 02:25 PM
On a 1, there is a powerful artifact that replaces the HD of any creature that holds it has with monk levels. They don't notice anything is wrong, until they go to use their class abilities. Give them their new sheet the following session. Taste their tears. Delicious.

That is deliciously evil. Mmm, tears.

That said, I don't like the idea of punishing players for doing something, as long as the whole group wants to do it. The point of the game is to have fun, after all.

Lateral
2010-05-03, 02:31 PM
Roll a d4 when the characters hold up the caravan.
...
On a 1, there is a powerful artifact that replaces the HD of any creature that holds it has with monk levels. They don't notice anything is wrong, until they go to use their class abilities. Give them their new sheet the following session. Taste their tears. Delicious.

No. Not monk levels. Worse.
...
TRUENAMER levels. They will hate you for all time.

Ok, serious time. It all depends on a few things.
A) Are the players doing this for fun, or for extra cash?
B) How overarching and developed is your plotline? Do they already know who the BBEG is? Do they have a single goal that you plan to keep until they reach epic levels?
C) Is this any fun for YOU?

Telonius
2010-05-03, 02:43 PM
If the players get too much into the habit of robbing merchants ...

Step 1: Confiscate their character sheets.
Step 2: Say "we're going to play a one-shot game tonight. Make character of level N" (where N is their previous level plus 2)
Step 3: Start the game with "Well, there's a group of bandits robbing poor traveling merchants; your group of mercenaries was hired to hunt them down and bring them to justice"

This is my preferred method. Seriously, this is a person who deals in magical items. Where do you think he got the stuff he's selling? He bought it from other adventurers who were strong enough that they didn't need it anymore. He has connections.

Johel
2010-05-03, 02:45 PM
If the players get too much into the habit of robbing merchants ...

Step 1: Confiscate their character sheets.
Step 2: Say "we're going to play a one-shot game tonight. Make character of level N" (where N is their previous level plus 2)
Step 3: Start the game with "Well, there's a group of bandits robbing poor traveling merchants; your group of mercenaries was hired to hunt them down and bring them to justice"

Lin Bayaseda, you win an Internet.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-03, 04:55 PM
It's never come up in one of my campaigns. But I've thought about it, and have a couple of ready-made solutions.

1) He's a reputable magic item merchant. When someone deals with him honestly, he makes certain that none of the curses on the items he's selling applies to the person he's selling them to (e.g., the Cloak of Resistance that sets off a Meteor Swarm on it's wearer every round it's worn by someone who is not a female gnome is only sold to a female gnome, who won't notice - most of them won't be that bad, though). You're stealing from him? Sorry, he's not filtering... and he really only deals in cursed items. One or two might not apply to you... if you're lucky.

2) The "Magic Item Merchant" is a front. The stuff he has out front is the stuff that's unsaleable (Cursed, doesn't actually work, whatever). When a purchase is successfully made, he takes the money, goes into the back room, puts the money in a portable hole (minus his cut; and the portable hole has a curse: Everything in it is spit out one minute after being put in), which he then hands off to the storehouse along with an order form through an unusually small ring-gate. The storehouse takes and counts the money, puts the item in the portable hole, and hands it back. The "Magic Item Merchant" then takes the item to the front desk, and hands it over. Selling stuff to him works the same way, in reverse. Beating him up just gets you... what he has on him.

3) After the first, you no longer get magic merchants. When you go shopping, you need to make a couple of different checks:

a) Gather Information to find someone who has it or can make it. (DC 15+minimum level of the standard caster who could make).
b) Diplomacy to bargain for the price; results are as follows:
50+: 1/2 DMG list price.
40-49: DMG list price
30-39: 2* DMG list price
20-29: 3* DMG list price
10-19: 4* DMG list price
Less than 10: The person you found seeks out a way to spite you. You may end up with a cursed item, you may end up with your name and face associated with a crime, you may end up with someone who tracks your movements and tips off people who will want to oppose you, or you may end up with something nasty. Depends on the person you found.
Modifiers:
You receive a +5 bonus on both rolls if you're commissioning the item's creation, rather than trying to purchase one that already exists.
Non-core items have an increased DC at DM whimsey.

Seatbelt
2010-05-03, 05:13 PM
I think my group has a sort of gentleman's agreement that merchants can't be robbed because the one time in NWN when you tried to rob the merchant you got turned into a penguin. Its a sort of collective memory that shows itself when we play.

gbprime
2010-05-03, 08:05 PM
Hey, they want to rob the merchants? Go ahead. They want to craft stuff and sell it for profit, go ahead. They want to kidnap people and sell them in foreign lands, be my guest. Want to use powerful magic to create fake exotic creatures or rare substances and dump them on the market? Have fun.

But there's the little chart called the Wealth By Level guideline. As the DM, it's my job to follow that thing as a general rule. If the PC's are poorer than that, the treasure just comes to them. if the PC's are rolling in cash for any reason, then the monsters they beat up on are paupers and the villains had no magic weapons, but rather were buffed by the caster in their group.

If you instead feel like punishing the characters... there are deities of commerce, right? Honest merchants who are preyed upon by the unscrupulous can turn to these churches for help. And honestly a strike force of PC-level clerics and crusaders hunting the party down is scary. :smallbiggrin:

Kirgoth
2010-05-03, 09:00 PM
Merchants do business in a region because they can make a profit. If they keep getting robbed they will make losses and stop trading there; Historically in the real world this did happen and in many cases the local rulers paid out the merchants as it was their responsibility to ensure safe passage so the merchants kept comming. The local rulers then hunted down the robbers.

If the pc's are so strong they can rob with impuinity as the local ruler doesn't care or the p's are too strong/tricky for him to catch/stop then the merchants will stay away. Not just those robbed but pretty much all merchants who feel they may be next.

This will result in much less income in the region and could lead to ecomonic collapse. This probably will be seen in less income for the ruler, leading to him/her having a less efficient or large army which then leads to lots of other gangs of bandits entering the area, invasions, plagues of undead which he cannot afford to take down.

Basically there are consequences. I would let them steal stuff and slowly let the region they live in turn to a horrible mess as a result.

Arcane_Secrets
2010-05-04, 10:12 PM
A strong enough local constabulary (especially if you combine it with the possibility of communication between towns through magic) worked as a deterrent in my last campaign. After the first time my PC's tried it and ended up wanted throughout the entire region, with some good disguises and magic, they were able to trade after a while again, but they tended to stay relatively honest and/or discreet afterwards.

ghashxx
2010-05-05, 01:01 AM
I really like the natural consequence set of things over the "throw a merchant to kick their but" routine. They steal and rob = crusaders etc. come out to get them. Since they're evil now (robbing from innocents = evil) then even if they kill off your avenging warriors, they'll have to deal with some major force for good eventually that will kick their but.

It's kind of like when they're running good guys. The bad guys don't mean to draw the attention of warriors that can squash them, but in come the PCs to do it anyways. Now it's the PCs turn. If the players can get hired to take out robbers, then NPCs can get hired to take out PC robbers too.

Edit: Almost forgot, if they didn't mean to be evil then maybe some atonement is in order. If they are being evil...marks of justice a la Belkar to work off their debt to society, or spend the rest of their days rotting in a jail. Their call.

Morithias
2010-05-05, 04:24 AM
Use RAW. Whip out the DMG2.

On page 186 it points out what the "Banditry" and "Burglary" fall into respectively. Figure out which one these fall into.

First off Banditry by definition, assuming the shops is playing by the same rules as the players. Is going to have an owner higher level than the players.

Let's say your team is 4 Pc's with Level 10 characters. This would be a ECL 14, meaning the shop owner according to the canon rules, must be CL 16.

An added benefit to this, is that few people ever read said rules, meaning that they'll probably not catch onto what you're doing.

The second one is a more sneaky counter. Burglary, even if you treat it as 4 seperate events goes into "steals any gold kept on site along with 2d6 x 100 gp in good and supplies"

Sound bad, until you realize there's carry capacity. Plus the owner is allowed to have defenses. The most they'll get out of it is 4800 gp in goods (8d6 * 100) plus up to whatever gold puts them all at max load (don't forget most shops deal in copper and silver not gold) ;)

At a high enough level unless your characters are playing hulking hurlers, they'll quickly find it's not worth the trouble.

Oh, and the Mercenary thing, that was clever.

Sergeantbrother
2010-05-05, 08:37 AM
I'm afraid to say that many of the answers here are pretty terrible. IN my opinion, diabolus ex machina is about the worst thing that a DM can do aside from perhaps abusing a DM NPC.

If you want to run a heroic campaign and don't want your characters robing merchants, then tell them out of character about your feeling and then discuss your expectations about the campaign in comparison to the players expectations for the campaign. Come to some agreement about what direction the campaign is headed in, in a way that hopefully pleases everybody.

Lacking that, if you have no major objections and the players want to rob merchants, why not let them? Make the merchants realistic and appropriate for the characters level and the party's strengths and weaknesses just like you would with any challenge in a campaign. Low level parties go after more low level merchants and have to face town guardsmen. Higher level characters go after wealthier merchants who can hire powerful bodyguards, or perhaps the characters gain the ire of the king or guilds who send powerful people after the group. But remember, D&D is about having fun and if the players aren't having fun then you're not a good DM. This means that what ever challenges that the characters face have to be appropriate to their power level and they should ideally win.

You wouldn't have a CR 15 random encounter for a 2nd level party, so when you want to throw in an encounter for the players, send a group of bounty hunters, towns guardsmen, paladins, law enforcers, etc. after then of an appropriate level to challenge but not kill the party. Anything else is just passive aggressive abuse of DM power.

Lamech
2010-05-05, 09:06 AM
What are they robbing?
A trade caravan carrying around valuable spices/silks/generic-high-price-stuff, for gold and treasure? Well it has guards that conviently make it an ECL appropriate encounter, also they are now outlaws so you can have a "clearing your name" or "escaping justice" hook.

Or are they trying to rob a magic item store? This just fails, not because the merchant kills them or anything, but because he doesn't have the stock on hand. Magic item store will need a large selection to have what people want, so a store would need the resources of numerous powerful crafters to have it, so nothing short of a metropolis could plausibly have one. The stock is off site and teleported in when it needs to be, the PC's get nothing of sgnificant vaule, maybe some explosive runes or a delayed fireball blast. And plus the magic crafters behind this will now probably toss an occasional planar bound creature or nightmare spell the PC's way. Also instant "stop the demon from killing you" plot hook or "find the anti-nightmare plot token" plot hook.

Devils_Advocate
2010-05-05, 11:02 PM
Like the title says, what do you do about this problem?
What problem?

The PCs acquiring the valuables of other creatures through violence, stealth, and/or guile is perfectly standard gameplay. D&D is kind of centered around the "heroes" invading the homes of other sapient beings, killing them, and taking their stuff. Part of the DM's job is to make this challenging. That they might target stores in a human town instead of an underground complex inhabited by ugly fanged people really does not change the basis dynamic at work at all; it just alters the details.

The less sufficiently guarded and/or hidden valuables are, the sooner they're likely to fall into the hands of someone who will guard and/or hide them sufficiently. That might be the PCs, but it if it's not them, it'll just be someone else. As an extreme example, imagine a big pile of gold sitting out in the open on a commonly-used road with no one around. That's likely to disappear pretty quickly, right? And it's still going to disappear nearly as quickly if a single halfling hangs around the pile of gold and insists that it's all his. But if that gold is stashed in a secret cave and guarded by a frickin' dragon, it's going to stay where it is for considerably longer.

Remember: no one has written The Rights of Man. Heck, no one has even written Leviathan. The fact that survivors of an attack may appeal to the better nature of adventurers is pretty much the only recompense that our gnoll posse might fear should they simply forcibly dispossess everyone in your village.

So people who have something that the really powerful people want are in a lot of danger. If a dirt farmer who does all of his bargaining in and around the turnip economy suddenly finds himself with a pile of rubies that's bad news. It's not that there aren't people who would be willing to trade that farmer fine clothing, good food, and even minor magic items for those rubies--there totally are. But a pile of rubies is just big enough that a Marilith might take time out of her busy schedule to teleport in and murder his whole family for them. And he's a dirt farmer, so there's no way he has the force needed to even pretend to have the force needed to stop her from doing it. So if you have planar currencies or powerful artifacts, you can't trade them to innkeepers and prostitutes. You can't even give them away save to other powerful people and organizations.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a peasant who runs around with a ring that casts charm person once a day or there isn't a minor bandit chief who happens to have a magic sword. Those guys totally exist and they may well wander the lands trying to parlay their tiny piece of asymmetric power into something more. But the vast majority of these guys don't go on to become famous adventurers or dark lords. They get their stuff taken away from them the first time they go head to head with someone with real power. Good or Evil, Lawful or Chaotic, no one wants some idiot to be running around with a ring that charms people because frankly that's the kind of dangerous accident that's just waiting to happen. If you happen to be powerful and see some small fry running around with some magic your natural inclination is to take it from them. It doesn't matter what your alignment is, it doesn't matter if the guy with the wand of lightning bolt is currently "abusing" it, the fact is that if you don't take magic items away from little fish one of your enemies will. There is no right to private property. No one owns anything, they just hold on to it until someone takes it from them.
- Frank Trollman (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/frankTrollmanFanservice)

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 11:55 PM
Consequences. In the form of level INappropriate encounters---crusaders coming to reclaim the money, rival bandits wanting a piece of the pie or wanting to kick them off their turf, or even outsiders with vested interests in relics.

SethFahad
2010-05-06, 12:02 AM
Like the title says, what do you do about this problem?


2 words:

Cursed Items :belkar:

2 more words:

adventure hook.

Ashram
2010-05-06, 01:13 AM
What problem?

The PCs acquiring the valuables of other creatures through violence, stealth, and/or guile is perfectly standard gameplay. D&D is kind of centered around the "heroes" invading the homes of other sapient beings, killing them, and taking their stuff. Part of the DM's job is to make this challenging. That they might target stores in a human town instead of an underground complex inhabited by ugly fanged people really does not change the basis dynamic at work at all; it just alters the details.

The less sufficiently guarded and/or hidden valuables are, the sooner they're likely to fall into the hands of someone who will guard and/or hide them sufficiently. That might be the PCs, but it if it's not them, it'll just be someone else. As an extreme example, imagine a big pile of gold sitting out in the open on a commonly-used road with no one around. That's likely to disappear pretty quickly, right? And it's still going to disappear nearly as quickly if a single halfling hangs around the pile of gold and insists that it's all his. But if that gold is stashed in a secret cave and guarded by a frickin' dragon, it's going to stay where it is for considerably longer.

Remember: no one has written The Rights of Man. Heck, no one has even written Leviathan. The fact that survivors of an attack may appeal to the better nature of adventurers is pretty much the only recompense that our gnoll posse might fear should they simply forcibly dispossess everyone in your village.

So people who have something that the really powerful people want are in a lot of danger. If a dirt farmer who does all of his bargaining in and around the turnip economy suddenly finds himself with a pile of rubies that's bad news. It's not that there aren't people who would be willing to trade that farmer fine clothing, good food, and even minor magic items for those rubies--there totally are. But a pile of rubies is just big enough that a Marilith might take time out of her busy schedule to teleport in and murder his whole family for them. And he's a dirt farmer, so there's no way he has the force needed to even pretend to have the force needed to stop her from doing it. So if you have planar currencies or powerful artifacts, you can't trade them to innkeepers and prostitutes. You can't even give them away save to other powerful people and organizations.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a peasant who runs around with a ring that casts charm person once a day or there isn't a minor bandit chief who happens to have a magic sword. Those guys totally exist and they may well wander the lands trying to parlay their tiny piece of asymmetric power into something more. But the vast majority of these guys don't go on to become famous adventurers or dark lords. They get their stuff taken away from them the first time they go head to head with someone with real power. Good or Evil, Lawful or Chaotic, no one wants some idiot to be running around with a ring that charms people because frankly that's the kind of dangerous accident that's just waiting to happen. If you happen to be powerful and see some small fry running around with some magic your natural inclination is to take it from them. It doesn't matter what your alignment is, it doesn't matter if the guy with the wand of lightning bolt is currently "abusing" it, the fact is that if you don't take magic items away from little fish one of your enemies will. There is no right to private property. No one owns anything, they just hold on to it until someone takes it from them.
- Frank Trollman (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/frankTrollmanFanservice)

Seconded. D&D's economy is actually Chaotic Evil.

Zen Master
2010-05-06, 01:41 AM
Like the title says, what do you do about this problem?

I know of two occurences where trying to do this went extremely badly for the players.

If the players are the bad guys, eventually the heroes will arrive. The players will pose a credible threat to the heroes, but due to better tactics and gear, the heroes will prevail. Surviving player characters will be jailed, sentenced and hanged.

As a GM, I do not tolerate picking on the little guys.

FatR
2010-05-06, 02:03 AM
Like the title says, what do you do about this problem?
This is a problem? Since when,the armed robbery is not the main point of DnD?..

Well, jokes aside I use two solutions:

1)"I don't like evil PCs, so don't generate them, OK?" before the game. I should stress that this is the only proper solution in case the GM does not like PCs robbing people on principle. Unleashing gods and whatever serves as grudge NPCs this day on them is bad, and GMs should feel bad for that. There is no frigging way that can possibly seem anything other than arbitrary and antagonistic punishment in the world that swarms with more active and prosperous evildoers you can shake your stick at (otherwise there would have been little point in heroic PC adventurers, right?).

2)Merchants don't really have anything PCs want. Magic items and other good stuff are comissioned (if you know the right people and they are willing to help you), not sold on open market. All but the richest merchants don't even have much gold and jewelry. (Incentive to raid dungeons and do other insanely dangerous things adventurers do lies, for my games, in the fact, that if you hit the jackpot and manage to get out alive, you can earn orders of magnitude more that you can earn by squeezing money from normal people, one way or another. This is not the case in default 3.X, though.)

FatR
2010-05-06, 02:14 AM
Seconded. D&D's economy is actually Chaotic Evil.
Only in Trollman's interpretation, which does not take into account, say, the fact, than in D&D you must either have high-level dudes, who divided all the interesting pieces of the world among themselves and maintain law and order in their lands with iron Bigby's Hand or have no sort of economy at all, because otherwise pretty much everyone will be eaten by one ridiculously powerful wandering monster or another before it forms. His setting is not bad, but it should not pretend to represent the DnD default. Particularly because no single setting can in the system, where the entire world can work (or not work) a certain way, simply because a handful of dudes - or even just one - will so.

FatR
2010-05-06, 02:33 AM
If the players get too much into the habit of robbing merchants ...

Step 1: Confiscate their character sheets.
My character sheet is mine. You can get a copy, but you won't be able to "confiscate" anything from me without RL physical violence.



Step 2: Say "we're going to play a one-shot game tonight. Make character of level N" (where N is their previous level plus 2)
No we're not. You want to do one-shot, I'm walking out, permanently, because I don't care about one-shots or, more importantly, GMs who try running something other than the game I came to the session for.

FatR
2010-05-06, 02:36 AM
It depends on campaign assumptions. Keep it realistic to your world.

If you play in a world where PCs are small fish and characters of their level and higher are common, they will eventually fail. The first merchant might have some CR appropriate guards. The second might have stepped up defenses. Then a merchants guild will have them hunted down, or a good church will send paladins and clerics to smite them, or the kingdom's ruler will ask his mage friend to scry and die the criminals.

If you play in a world where PCs are the big fish, you let them succeed, and deal with the consequences of their actions. Merchants stop selling magic items in the kingdom where the PCs live. They will be confronted by waves of guards and NPCs, which they will beat, until the kingdom collapses. While they were crushing the defenders of civilization, monsters ran the show, and now the PCs have to deal with monstergeddon, but everyone they meet will see them as the bad guys and no one will help them. In this kind of campaign, the PCs could just as easily be taking over the kingdom themselves. They just chose to spend their time poorly.
This is probably the piece of advice I agree with most in this entire thread.

Revlid
2010-05-06, 03:31 AM
My character sheet is mine. You can get a copy, but you won't be able to "confiscate" anything from me without RL physical violence.

No we're not. You want to do one-shot, I'm walking out, permanently, because I don't care about one-shots or, more importantly, GMs who try running something other than the game I came to the session for.
I take it you don't game with friends, then? Or have any, given your attitude?

Ravens_cry
2010-05-06, 03:38 AM
Let's avoid a snarkfest before it erupts, people. I am almost out of popcorn and I don't want to waste it on this thread.:smallsmile:

Math_Mage
2010-05-06, 03:56 AM
My character sheet is mine. You can get a copy, but you won't be able to "confiscate" anything from me without RL physical violence.


No we're not. You want to do one-shot, I'm walking out, permanently, because I don't care about one-shots or, more importantly, GMs who try running something other than the game I came to the session for.

Then meet the DM halfway. Presumably, he isn't going to resort to this sort of trick if you just stop robbing people when he asks you to.

Ogremindes
2010-05-06, 04:55 AM
When your players throw you for a loop you don't restrain them, you roll with it.

If you have a group of PCs who enjoy robbing merchants then you ditch your original plans and let them. Provide a hideout, patrols of rangers to fight, information on caravan schedules, rival groups of bandits and monsters with which to vie over the same stretch of valley. And who doesn't love it when the merchant's guild hires a notorious bounty hunter (They say he's killed more folks then small pox!) to deal with them, or the church of (whomever your patron deity of travelers might be, or of extremely lawful evil tyrants) sends forth a band of clerics to harshly open the roads.

Start watching westerns and read up on Jesse James and the like.

This seems like the best option by far, if you can pull it off.

Sergeantbrother
2010-05-06, 06:11 AM
If the players are the bad guys, eventually the heroes will arrive. The players will pose a credible threat to the heroes, but due to better tactics and gear, the heroes will prevail. Surviving player characters will be jailed, sentenced and hanged.

As a GM, I do not tolerate picking on the little guys.

That last sentence is meant to be ironic right? Considering your seeming desire to bully your players with DM fiat.



My character sheet is mine. You can get a copy, but you won't be able to "confiscate" anything from me without RL physical violence.

No we're not. You want to do one-shot, I'm walking out, permanently, because I don't care about one-shots or, more importantly, GMs who try running something other than the game I came to the session for.

I agree, players should not tolerate abusive DM's. If the DM has an out of game request to make of me, he can make it out of game, but if he uses GM fiat to passive aggressively get his way then I am not going to stand for it.

Emmerask
2010-05-06, 06:28 AM
That last sentence is meant to be ironic right? Considering your seeming desire to bully your players with DM fiat.


Why is it dm fiat that at some points the local lords will send heroes? Itīs completely natural that the local lords/merchants donīt want their stuff stolen no fiat whatsoever involved.




I agree, players should not tolerate abusive DM's. If the DM has an out of game request to make of me, he can make it out of game, but if he uses GM fiat to passive aggressively get his way then I am not going to stand for it.


Depends really on the world in question, is it really passive aggressive on the dmīs part if the local powers hire someone who is strong enough to deal with the problem the players have become? If itīs a dungeon crawl loosely strung together module campaign you may have a point, if itīs a complete world it is just the reaction you get for an action :smallwink:


So using your logic, if I kill the 20th level wizards son it would be dm fiat if the wizard hunts me down and kills me afterwards?
Nope it is not fiat and has nothing to do with it! seriously people are using both fiat and railroading in a completely wrong context more and more, in the I donīt like it must be fiat or railroading context to be exact...

If the son is unkillable even though not currently protected by the wizard (by whatever means), that would be fiat.

NotMe
2010-05-06, 06:48 AM
Out of game, it's fine to agree with / tell players that "I want to run a heroic good guys campaign, please create and play your characters accordingly" and if people want to play then they those are the rules they sign up to. If this agreement has been reached and players violate it then dealing with it out of game is probably best.

In a campaign that's a bit more morally grey, then in game consequeces follow in game actions. If players get a hundred gold from the local general store (and people know about it) then there will be lowish consequences, such as them not being welcome in that town, (small) bounties being posted that PCs of their level won't care about.

A magic item store with a few hundred thousand gold piece inventory is entirely different. First of all this will be located somewhere where powerful and rich people frequently congegrate, otherwise it will not make sales. Secondly, the owner of this shop will have had to build up and retain the capital to purchase stock. This means that they will not be stupid and may themselves be quite powerful (magic shop owner sounds like a good profession for retired adventurers). Thirdly, if they do steal from such an establishment, they have just just got a very rich person very annoyed with them. That person is likely to spend some money on making sure this isn't repeated, through bounty hunter, assasins, church knights, adventurers, donations to the watch retirement fund, or whatever else is appropriate to their alignment and your campaign. Finally, other people's wealth or prestige is likely to be tied up with such a big enterprise, leading to people the adventurers know nothing about having a vested interest in their demise.

In one campaign I was in, the players tried to steal several tens of thousands of GP worth of items. They were largely stopped by security measures and only got away with a few potions. It was only later that they discovered that the shop manager had taken the opportunity to steal from the shop himself, using their break in as cover. This meant that players were hunted by the law and by other criminals who believed they adventurers had massive amounts of highly portable magical wealth with them. It made for an enjoyable and challenging story arc of the campaign.

Ultimately, think of the real world. Someone with a weapon can probably steal a bit of cash from a random shop (fairly low investment in security). If they get away from the immediate area and stay unidentified then they are likely to get away with it (police will have other things to prioritise, etc.). If they try to steal the contents of Fort Knox, then they are far less likely to succeed and people aren't going to stop looking for them. The same will hold true in the game world.

FatR
2010-05-06, 07:40 AM
Then meet the DM halfway. Presumably, he isn't going to resort to this sort of trick if you just stop robbing people when he asks you to.
And the post I answered to suggested no such asking.

Math_Mage
2010-05-06, 07:53 AM
And the post I answered to suggested no such asking.

When a DM asks about a playgroup problem, most people are not so uncharitable as to assume the DM hasn't taken extremely basic measures like "hey guys, I'm a little uncomfortable with all the caravan-robbing you're doing." Just like we don't usually pause to make sure that a player looking for charsheet help knows that a Sorcerer is a spontaneous caster, even if once in a great while someone obstinately refuses to understand this.

And frankly, resorting to physical violence to hold on to your charsheet and walking out on a DM who wants to play a one-shot are quite unwarranted responses from a player, in the absence of a compelling justification.

ghashxx
2010-05-06, 08:02 AM
The whole idea of having the players make new characters for that one night, for the sole purpose of using the new characters to capture the original characters, would actually be really really fun. Because you really don't want to kill any of the original characters, bringing some flavor to the tactics. At the same time, it's okay if some of the new characters get killed off, cause it's just a one shot so no biggie.

I for one would love to do that kind of one shot game. Get to face my original PC party with new PCs, get to see what it's like as a DM having to deal with tat original party would be fun.

Sergeantbrother
2010-05-06, 08:55 AM
Why is it dm fiat that at some points the local lords will send heroes? Itīs completely natural that the local lords/merchants donīt want their stuff stolen no fiat whatsoever involved.

Its not fiat if the lords send proportional force to the threat presented by the players - like if a group of low level players steal a few hundred gold pieces from a traveling merchant, then the local authorities aren't going to send out a party of 20th level paladins to kill the player characters.


Depends really on the world in question, is it really passive aggressive on the dmīs part if the local powers hire someone who is strong enough to deal with the problem the players have become? If itīs a dungeon crawl loosely strung together module campaign you may have a point, if itīs a complete world it is just the reaction you get for an action :smallwink:

So using your logic, if I kill the 20th level wizards son it would be dm fiat if the wizard hunts me down and kills me afterwards?
Nope it is not fiat and has nothing to do with it! seriously people are using both fiat and railroading in a completely wrong context more and more, in the I donīt like it must be fiat or railroading context to be exact...

If the son is unkillable even though not currently protected by the wizard (by whatever means), that would be fiat.

If the DM deliberately takes an action where he knows the players have no chance of victory, then he's a terrible DM - full stop. It becomes particularly bad if the players kill some random low level guy in a bar fight who turns out to be the son of a 20th level wizard - basically a situation contrived by the DM to abuse his powers. Its something that no players should stand for.

Ultimately, the DM's job is for the players to have fun. If that isn't happening then the DM isn't doing his job - and very seldom is "A group of NPC's 10 levels higher than the party comes ad kills you all because you did something in game that I didn't like." going to be fun for any of players.

Aotrs Commander
2010-05-06, 09:30 AM
Ultimately, the DM's job is for the players to have fun. If that isn't happening then the DM isn't doing his job - and very seldom is "A group of NPC's 10 levels higher than the party comes ad kills you all because you did something in game that I didn't like." going to be fun for any of players.

True, but it's also the player's job to make sure the DM is having fun too.

Personally, my response has been to flat-out state that I will NOT run a criminal campaign. Evil yes, good, yes, criminal NO. And yes, there is a big difference between Evil and criminal in my definitions; it's the gap between playing a game working for Sauron or the Galactic Empire and playing like it's Grand Theft Auto (or Grand Theft...cart...? Horse? Special Mount...?) Violate that restrcition, and you WILL suffer the consequences - maybe not right away, but you will find yourself on a slippery slope to death, as the consequences catch up to you (you rob the merchant; the guards invesitgate. You kill the guards, adventurers are sent to deal with you. You kill the adventurers. Higher level adventurers are sent after you, as you are becoming a greater threat. And so on.)

Though this restriction is mainly necessiatated by my friend, who, if left unchecked would take a giggling childish delight in pillaging and looting for the sake of it. He's a copper by profession, which says it all, really. (And no, you can't blame it on wanting to be different to his profession, since he was like that BEFORE he joined the force...)

There is one campaign - one that's been running on and off for more years than I can count, in Spacemaster, where two of the characters behave in a criminal fashion. (Including one case of armed robbery and murder.) The characters pre-date my current level of DMing skills, so I wouldn't allow it to happen again. (Also in SM/RM there's no real wealth/kit power problems, at least not in comparison to PCs skill, so you can't break the system as easily with loot.) One character (who's background was hilariously a picture of him robbing a bank with the caption "just one of his many crimes..."), now an NPC, actually was arrested and imprisioned at a penal colony. The remaining player of the pair of crooks (as in him aforementioned...) temporarily retired the other character to go and rescue him, and they are now back.

Delighfully, the player seems still to be under the delusion that, despite the fact due to actions from their (many and evil) enemies, the party is now wanted for quite legitimate crimes (these two being the worst offenders), he's not going to be arrested or executed. One recent adventure had them captured by overwhelming force by one space-power and his first reactions was that they were going to be sent on a mission for said power in return for a pardon1. At which point I laughed and said. "No! Seriously, you're not going to get away with literal murder forever; eventually, Liam [the character] is going to suffer the consequences of his actions..."

Point is, it happened a long time ago and, as yet, as the group are a party of adventures in a very busy galaxy, no-one has hunted him down YET. But, now the party are pretty (in)famous, at least in terms of People Who Want Them Dead and legitimate warrents are now outstanding on them, it's only a matter of time before they get caught. And two certain members of the party won't be walking away. (Probably because they'll be being dragged away by the LEOs, since there's no way in hell they'll surrender without being subdued...!)

Aside from that one instance, the afore mentioned "don't be criminal character or I'll kill you" (meaning the PCs and/or player2, depending on how good my mood is at the time) is in effect. To my great delight, the one time this was violated, the two offending characters (guess who the player of one was...) got into a duel with one of the other PCs and to everyone's great surprise and my delight, he killed them. Without me having to do anything at all. Karma, I call that...



1Actually, the capture was merely set-up by the PC time-travelling enemies to transport them (and the unwitting NSL troopers) into a pocket dimension, where they could set two Greater Black Reavers on them. (A rough equialent in D&D would be two Hecatoncheires.) With heavy anti-proton cannons of Sienetic Harbinger origin, which is exactly as horribly powerful as it sounds. The Brotherhoor REALLY want the PCs dead...!

2One of the perks of being Evil is exactly this kind of ridiculous over-the-top retribution. Heck, it's practically in my job description. No, wait, it actually is. Right after the clause about killing every Vampire I ever come across...

NotMe
2010-05-06, 09:36 AM
If the DM deliberately takes an action where he knows the players have no chance of victory, then he's a terrible DM - full stop.

Players should have chances to deal with a problem in one or more ways. These ways can include running away, hiding, etc.

However, (all IMHO) players still need to pay the price for their own stupidity; if they are being stupid in the game world then not exposing them to the consequences is being unfair to the setting and babying the players.

If players make a mistake where they have no way of knowing it's a mistake (e.g. picking a fight in a bar with someone who happens to be the son of a powerful wizard) then it's unfair to excessively penalize them. But if players ignore in character knowledge to do sufficiently stupid things then they should bear the consequences.

If they knowingly try steal hundreds of thousands of GP in items from a powerful wizards guild then it's unreasonable to only have a single low level wizard trying to hunt them down (even if they are only low level), a significant portion of the guilds strength should be devoted to retrieving the items and punishing the perpetrators. Anything less is trivializing the actions of the players.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-06, 09:37 AM
My character sheet is mine. You can get a copy, but you won't be able to "confiscate" anything from me without RL physical violence.


No we're not. You want to do one-shot, I'm walking out, permanently, because I don't care about one-shots or, more importantly, GMs who try running something other than the game I came to the session for.

You are aware D&D is a game right? An activity you do with friends to pass the time and enjoy yourselves?

Do you honestly treat your friends like this?

Anterean
2010-05-06, 10:09 AM
Or are they trying to rob a magic item store? This just fails, not because the merchant kills them or anything, but because he doesn't have the stock on hand. Magic item store will need a large selection to have what people want, so a store would need the resources of numerous powerful crafters to have it, so nothing short of a metropolis could plausibly have one. The stock is off site and teleported in when it needs to be, the PC's get nothing of sgnificant vaule, maybe some explosive runes or a delayed fireball blast. And plus the magic crafters behind this will now probably toss an occasional planar bound creature or nightmare spell the PC's way. Also instant "stop the demon from killing you" plot hook or "find the anti-nightmare plot token" plot hook.

Come to think of it, I have never experience a player going
"Hey guys I have a great idea. Let's knock over that Thayan enclave to night"

Wonder why that is

FatR
2010-05-06, 01:04 PM
You are aware D&D is a game right? An activity you do with friends to pass the time and enjoy yourselves?

Do you honestly treat your friends like this?
People who honestly try to pull off things like taking others' property and abusing others' trust (and presumably persists even after being told that they are wrong) are nobody's friends. This crap goes beyond usual passive-aggressive brand of bad GMing. And yes, refusing to GM the game everyone gathered for is a quite serious abuse of trust.

FatR
2010-05-06, 01:05 PM
Come to think of it, I have never experience a player going
"Hey guys I have a great idea. Let's knock over that Thayan enclave to night"

Wonder why that is
Because the main schtick of FR is PC's powerlessness.

Project_Mayhem
2010-05-06, 01:10 PM
If I were a merchant, and a gang of thugs kept knocking off my associates and my merchandise, I would be inclined to hire a group of more powerful good guys to take them down.

So a party of Lawful good/neutral characters of a few CR higher than the PC's. If they win - great for them, they earned the rewards. If they get taken down, then they lose their loot and have to break prison.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-06, 01:18 PM
People who honestly try to pull off things like taking others' property ... are nobody's friends.I can see from you posts that sense of humor and levity aren't your strongest suits, but surely, this part of your post, coupled with the fact the title of the thread is "Players robbing merchants", must strike at least some kind of ironic chord within you? Yes, no?

Well, it did strike an ironic chord in me, and I guess we'll have to settle for that.

Tavar
2010-05-06, 01:24 PM
People who honestly try to pull off things like taking others' property and abusing others' trust (and presumably persists even after being told that they are wrong) are nobody's friends. This crap goes beyond usual passive-aggressive brand of bad GMing. And yes, refusing to GM the game everyone gathered for is a quite serious abuse of trust.

And players doing this to DM"s is okay? Double standard much?

LibraryOgre
2010-05-06, 01:25 PM
Because the main schtick of FR is PC's powerlessness.

Not when I run it.

hewhosaysfish
2010-05-06, 02:03 PM
The whole idea of having the players make new characters for that one night, for the sole purpose of using the new characters to capture the original characters, would actually be really really fun. Because you really don't want to kill any of the original characters, bringing some flavor to the tactics. At the same time, it's okay if some of the new characters get killed off, cause it's just a one shot so no biggie.

I for one would love to do that kind of one shot game. Get to face my original PC party with new PCs, get to see what it's like as a DM having to deal with tat original party would be fun.

ROFL.
If the DM asked me to make and play a level N+2 character to take down my level N character... you can bet I'd come up with some "innovative new tactics"!

Tactics like: Light myself on fire and attempt to grapple the target! Fling myself on top of the target from the roof of a 4-storey building. Hand the target all the magic items my level N+2 WBL can buy, hoping that he'll become to encumbered to run away properly.

I'd be the most comically incompetentjaw-droppingly stupid bounty-hunter ever!
I would be like watching a Roadrunner cartoon only, after Wile E Coyote has slamed face-first into a canyon wall, Roadrunner comes back and loots his wallet and Acme Rocket Skates.

ghashxx
2010-05-06, 02:08 PM
It's the job of the DM to give the story some story. If the players decide to skip the story the DM has made, then it's the DM's responsibility to either get them back on track (rail road or a more gentle nudge), or to adapt the story to the new direction the players are going.

So players jump off the story tracks to rob caravans, then it's either get them back on the tracks, or go with that story. That story is all about crime and punishment. Criminal activity warrants response from the injured participants. That means, you steal from me, I hire people to beat the crap out of you until I get it back. If the players can actually evade capture etc, then fine. But that's going to need leaving town, otherwise the justice system is going to keep trying to find you.

And the whole confiscating and one shot deal? That's not stealing and betraying trust. That's doing something interesting to get the characters back on track, and the DM needs your character sheet to competently run your character. It's either that or it's the DM who runs those new characters, and then everyone complains about the DM sending overpowered guys at them. By the players running the new guys, it's interesting and fun, while still being completely related to the original story.

@hewhosayfish: now that was just absoflippanlutely amazing. Load him up with all my magic items so he's encumbered, lols

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-06, 02:25 PM
So players jump off the story tracks to rob caravans, then it's either get them back on the tracks, or go with that story. That story is all about crime and punishment.
Mostly punishment, of course. I mean, the players already have the crime part covered, so there isn't much left to the DM...

nedz
2010-05-06, 04:14 PM
The first time a party does something like this it can be quite fun, but it gets dull fast.
So I usually have it go very wrong at the second attempt. This needn't be fatal, and there are as many options available as you're imagination allows.

Unless, that is, the whole point of the campaign is to play a bunch of bandits.

Math_Mage
2010-05-06, 04:19 PM
People who honestly try to pull off things like taking others' property and abusing others' trust (and presumably persists even after being told that they are wrong) are nobody's friends. This crap goes beyond usual passive-aggressive brand of bad GMing. And yes, refusing to GM the game everyone gathered for is a quite serious abuse of trust.

Fiddlesticks. The DM has 90% of the workload; he deserves some portion of control over the game. Leaving aside your extremely rude generalizations about Lin Bayaseda (for which I think you owe an apology), you have a skewed view of the dynamics that lead to this situation if you think that the DM making a one-shot campaign is a 'serious abuse of trust', or that the DM calling out the players by asking them to hunt down their own characters is in any way 'passive-aggressive'.


ROFL.
If the DM asked me to make and play a level N+2 character to take down my level N character... you can bet I'd come up with some "innovative new tactics"!

Tactics like: Light myself on fire and attempt to grapple the target! Fling myself on top of the target from the roof of a 4-storey building. Hand the target all the magic items my level N+2 WBL can buy, hoping that he'll become to encumbered to run away properly.

I'd be the most comically incompetentjaw-droppingly stupid bounty-hunter ever!
I would be like watching a Roadrunner cartoon only, after Wile E Coyote has slamed face-first into a canyon wall, Roadrunner comes back and loots his wallet and Acme Rocket Skates.

Keep in mind, the DM is the one who decides whether or not your character actually gets any of the loot your one-shot character is handing out. And if you do something deliberately provocative like this, odds are against it...let alone the odds of restoring playgroup harmony.

Oslecamo
2010-05-06, 04:20 PM
All merchants have to pay a licence to the ruler of the land to do their business. Expensive, but...

As a bonus, if they get robbed, the ruler of the land sends his trusted retainers to punish the robbers.

Barlen
2010-05-06, 04:35 PM
I have a few thoughts on this....

If your players enjoy robbing merchants (and others) there are a couple things you can do:

Short answer: they get robbed in return =) after all some of those merchants are/were thieves themselves to begin with or at least have contacts.

Long answer:

1) they get contacted by someone who has heard of their work and had the brains/magic to track them down. This person wants to employ them to do more of them but at a higher level.

2) Send them on a series of level appropriate heists. In some cases they steal from Count A (or King A) and sneak in and plant the object in the possession of Barron B, a political opponent of Count A. Some of the heist they go on fit this theme and some do not.

3) eventually civil war breaks out and the missions they are now given hurt both sides. They should be questioning their employer by now.

4) Country is invaded by Neighbor (or by the monstergeddon someone mentioned) and easily overthrown due to previous civil war. Thier employer was wrking for this source.

5) They are now an embarrassment (or simply not needed) to the new rulers, they are betrayed, and become worse outlaws than before. Can they now fix what they started and help restore the rightful power to the throne?

Greenish
2010-05-06, 05:30 PM
3) eventually civil war breaks out and the missions they are now given hurt both sides. They should be questioning their employer by now.Not if they're paid well enough. :smallwink:

5) They are now an embarrassment (or simply not needed) to the new rulers, they are betrayed, and become worse outlaws than before.Someone hasn't been reading the evil overlord guide. You don't throw away useful fools. :smallcool:

So, now the PCs work for a powerful and aggressively expanding nation (of monsters, maybe). Sounds like there's a lot to do.

Ormur
2010-05-06, 06:59 PM
If any merchant is rich enough to deal in magic items with actual stocks on hand he can probably afford some good protection (that's also why you're always paying double). I'm thinking something like golems. His storage room might look like a sculptors gallery with the golems wearing the magic items and when someone besides the merchant touches them they all come alive. That provides the encounter.

If they actually beat the golems I'd probably have the magic items a bit generous for the encounter level but it's most likely that the stuff on stock is pretty low level and fairly standard plus a few random things the merchant just bought from other adventurers.

The merchant is probably a powerful member of some guild that has greater resources to draw on and since he deals in magic items he probably knows all of the local spell casters. He might also have good connections to the city council, perhaps even an alarms spell that alerts the entire city watch of the robbery. Depending it's effectiveness that could make the encounter even more difficult.

If the PC's escape with the loot they now just earned the ire of most of the powerful authorities in an entire city and probably a few underworld elements through hit jobs. They'll probably be the subject of many a divination spell and a bit of scry'n-die. Even if they manage to evade that they'll have trouble selling all of the +1 rings of protection and amulets of natural armour they just found themselves with now that they're marked men. Of course there will always be a few shady characters that are willing to buy but they can't offload all the loot at one place if they find a magic item sales man because he'll know about them through the guild.

If they overcome all those obstacles they're probably welcome to the loot. Who says crime doesn't pay anyway.

Sergeantbrother
2010-05-07, 06:43 AM
True, but it's also the player's job to make sure the DM is having fun too.

Personally, my response has been to flat-out state that I will NOT run a criminal campaign. Evil yes, good, yes, criminal NO. And yes, there is a big difference between Evil and criminal in my definitions; it's the gap between playing a game working for Sauron or the Galactic Empire and playing like it's Grand Theft Auto (or Grand Theft...cart...? Horse? Special Mount...?) Violate that restrcition, and you WILL suffer the consequences - maybe not right away, but you will find yourself on a slippery slope to death, as the consequences catch up to you (you rob the merchant; the guards invesitgate. You kill the guards, adventurers are sent to deal with you. You kill the adventurers. Higher level adventurers are sent after you, as you are becoming a greater threat. And so on.)

I agree, the DM should have fun too and I can understand not wanting to run a crime based campaign, I'm not sure if I want want to run that kind of game either. But what a good DM should do is just sit down with the players out of character and explain to the players that he doesn't want that sort of game, and then they come to an agreement. What the DM should never do is use his power as DM to contrive a punishment to make the PC's suffer because they do things in game that the Dm doesn't like.




Players should have chances to deal with a problem in one or more ways. These ways can include running away, hiding, etc.

However, (all IMHO) players still need to pay the price for their own stupidity; if they are being stupid in the game world then not exposing them to the consequences is being unfair to the setting and babying the players.

If players make a mistake where they have no way of knowing it's a mistake (e.g. picking a fight in a bar with someone who happens to be the son of a powerful wizard) then it's unfair to excessively penalize them. But if players ignore in character knowledge to do sufficiently stupid things then they should bear the consequences.

If they knowingly try steal hundreds of thousands of GP in items from a powerful wizards guild then it's unreasonable to only have a single low level wizard trying to hunt them down (even if they are only low level), a significant portion of the guilds strength should be devoted to retrieving the items and punishing the perpetrators. Anything less is trivializing the actions of the players.

You're deliberately confusing the issue. What you're talking about has nothing to do with robbery or merchants, you're talking about the players deciding to attack something that is out of their league - which should result in some negative consequences though probably not character death unless the players are particularly idiot. But robbing merchants isn't necessarily a case of that any more than protecting townsfolk from orcs is or going into a dungeon is. If a first level party goes into a dungeon to try and kill an elder dragon, they are going to die. If a 1st level part tries to rob a group of high level wizards, they will suffer terrible consequences.

Just as you claim its wrong to send a low level bounty hunter after the players when they anger a powerful group, its even more wrong to send disproportionately powerful law enforcers after the PC's for petty crime. Its the DM's job to make encounters proportionate to the PC's so that they will be challenged but not overwhelmed. To deliberately kill the PC's for in characters actions that the DM doesn't like is the worst thing a DM can do, and its not something that a player should stand for.

Zen Master
2010-05-07, 08:03 AM
That last sentence is meant to be ironic right? Considering your seeming desire to bully your players with DM fiat.

I agree, players should not tolerate abusive DM's. If the DM has an out of game request to make of me, he can make it out of game, but if he uses GM fiat to passive aggressively get his way then I am not going to stand for it.

My players should never assume they are the biggest fish in the pond. If that makes me a bully in your eyes, that is acceptable to me.

I've played with the same group of people for 21 years now. I think if anyone had serious problems with how I handle GM-ing, I'd have heard about it by now.

But let me ask you what exactly your point is?

I'm correct in assuming you consider it proper form for the king to hire adventurers to fight threats to the kingdom, right? Just - as an example.

But if the threat to the kingdom is in actual fact the PC's - that is no longer proper behaviour for the king? Am I correct - that is what you're saying?

Villains die. I don't care if I or the PC's hold the respective character sheets. Of course, were I to GM an evil campaign, that would be different.

FatR
2010-05-09, 11:03 PM
Fiddlesticks. The DM has 90% of the workload; he deserves some portion of control over the game.
The key words are "some portion".


Leaving aside your extremely rude generalizations about Lin Bayaseda (for which I think you owe an apology), you have a skewed view of the dynamics that lead to this situation if you think that the DM making a one-shot campaign is a 'serious abuse of trust',
Yes it is. We're all have jobs here. I've seen players who must plan their schedule a week ahead to get a free evening for an RPG session. I've seen players who were coming to play after sleeping for about two hours out of the last 48 or as their only significant break for work for the entire week. Been one myself. So yes, refusing to GMing the game that is expected from you, after playes showed up, is a serious abuse of trust.


or that the DM calling out the players by asking them to hunt down their own characters is in any way 'passive-aggressive'.
No, that's an active and malicious sort of dickery. Most of the rest of the advice in this thread is passive-agressive "If you disagree with the directions the players take the campaign into, just torture their characters until they get the point" sort of advice.

FatR
2010-05-09, 11:09 PM
Villains die.
Why, then, the world still crawls with villains and monsters to the extent that wandering heroes are accepted as a defense against them by the society, instead of being hunted down on principle, as dangerous vigilantes?

This is the question not only to you but to about 2/3rds of the posters in this thread. The assumption that there is suddenly a powerful, effective law-enforcement system on the territory covered by the campaign is all but incompatibe with the notion of adventurers' very existence (particularly beyond very low levels, when PCs qualify to deal with creatures stronger than those capable of passing for minor nuisances)...

Barbarian_Dan
2010-05-10, 01:00 PM
The DM just needs to be creative when dealing with situations like this.

The best way would be to let them think they got away with it, continue on with the adventure for a bit and then the next time they stay and an inn have them drink 'spiked' ales to make them pass out or give penalty's to spot/listen checks.

I would concoct at the very least that any robbed merchants would be part of a guild, and you could also assume that this guild would pay off any local thieves guild for protection. In this instance the theives guild in return for getting 'protection' money would be required to get the items, if for any reason because of a group of people scabbing off them.

So I would have a handful, or even a single high level theif come and attempt to take everything that was stolen and then some. Rob the party not only of what they took but also other valued possessions. After all the theif needs to get a paycheck here.

It would also be a good time to setup the thief as an antagonist to the party for future adventures.

There are many ways a good DM can work around a situation without killing off the entire party...