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View Full Version : Let's build a Ninja (Without the class)



Jallorn
2010-05-03, 12:57 PM
So, my goal here is to try and build a factotum so that he's a better ninja than a ninja. I've settled on changeling for the race, goes with the whole hidden thing without being too high LA. We'll be making him level 5, and some potential builds for the five levels after that (classes only for those 5).

Help and suggestions are much appreciated, especially with good PRCs for the later levels. I will be using this character in a game, so the personality will dictate some of my choices.

The way things look now, the build is currently 5 levels of Factotum, but that's all I've got. Also, I know it's good, but I"m fairly certain that Chameleon is wrong for the character.

Also, the game is mostly core, and I won't have access to a lot of the usual culprits for min-maxing.

stenver
2010-05-03, 01:06 PM
level 20 rogue.

Prime32
2010-05-03, 01:07 PM
Consider some levels in incarnum classes (or just the feats). You can pick up stuff like teleportation and walking on water.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-03, 01:08 PM
Add in two levels of monk with Kung Fu Genius to make his monk abilities int based.

Instead of Evasion take the alternate class feature that lets you turn invisible. It's in Exemplars of Evil, but you don't have to be evil to take the ACF.

That way, you can go invisible then drop all your inspiration for massive sneak attack damage.

Boost your Int as sky high as possible and either stay in Factotum or PrC into Assassin. Combine death attack and stunning fist, and boost your DCs with Ability Focus and simply raising your Int.

Factotum SLAs (and/or assassin spells) do the rest! Enjoy!

crazedloon
2010-05-03, 01:11 PM
swordsage with shadow hand as a focus discipline?

-good will save
-wisdom to armor
-wears light armor
-tons of skills
-can walk on walls
-can teleport
-can disapear
-can summon shadows to kill people
-has all the sneaking skills

if need be (for trapfinding) a level dip in factotum is helpful for the added skills/abilities

Captain Six
2010-05-03, 01:13 PM
20 Beguiler. As much as they are famous for it fighting was not a Ninja's forte it was a last resort. They were social manipulators and spies and preferred sabotage to assassination. Neutralizing a threat without leaving the visible mark that is death is ideal.

chiasaur11
2010-05-03, 01:15 PM
Factotum 20?

(Yes, I know. That works for anything. Shush.)

Optimystik
2010-05-03, 01:34 PM
level 20 rogue.

You realize the 20th level does nothing...? :smallconfused:

Valairn
2010-05-03, 01:38 PM
You realize the 20th level does nothing...? :smallconfused:

I contest your nothing with a d6 hit die! /technicalrimshot

Person_Man
2010-05-03, 01:40 PM
Ninja but better? So we need Skills, bonus damage, and Invisibility, right?

Skills: Factotum. Done.

Bonus Damage: Iaijutsu Focus + Gnomish Quickrazor + Underfoot Combat. You can read the full combo explanation in this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633), under "the combos." Although it's slightly harder to trigger then Sudden Strike, nothing is immune to it's effects, and it's easier to get higher damage earlier in your progression.

Invisibility: A wand of Swift Invisibility is relatively cheap, and you can store it for constant use in a wand chamber (Dungeonscape). And/or Hide in Plain Site is easy to get (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) via one level of Warlock and a feat. There's also the Collar of Umbral Metamophosis, which gives you the Dark template (Tome of Magic pg 156) which grants HiPS and other goodies. Throw in the Darkstalker feat so you can hide from Scent and Tremorsense and whatnot, and you're set.

If you want a social ninja, then you'll also want one level of Marshal and/or Binder. Marshal 1 gives you Skill Focus (Diplomacy), better weapons and armor, and your Cha bonus to your choice of checks (presumably Str for Trip/Grapple/Disarm/Bull Rush, Dex for Initiative and Skills, or Cha for Diplomancy). Binder 1 to bind Naberius, which grants all day Supernatural Disguise Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm), Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Command.htm), buffs to Diplomacy and Bluff, and the ability to heal ability damage every round, which makes Festering Anger, drugs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101), and various Vile feats usable.

There's also Incarnum, for large bonuses to pretty much any Skill, plus various cool powers. Factotum 1/Incarnate X or Factotum 1/Binder X with Able Learner are awesome Skill Monkeys.

For a magical ninja, just use Beguiler (or any standard full caster). Go read Naruto or 90% of other manga, and you'll realize that Japanese people basically call ninja Wizards.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-03, 01:42 PM
Pathfinder Rogue/Shadow Dancer, at least the way a friend did it.
Their hide is so sick most baddies, including bosses, can't see them on a Natural 20 on the dice, and we include a +10 on a Natural 20 to skill checks house rule. The only thing they can't do is deflect or catch arrows arrows, or strike lethally unarmed, but it could be worked into such a build.

Malificus
2010-05-03, 02:23 PM
I contest your nothing with a d6 hit die! /technicalrimshot
and a crowning +1 BAB and Reflex save

Draz74
2010-05-03, 02:44 PM
Factotum 20, Factotum 19/Monk 1 with Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk (if allowed), or some sort of Factotum/Swordsage multiclass are all strong options. The last one is probably the strongest option, if you can afford a pretty good Wisdom score.

Even if you don't take any Swordsage levels, I'd definitely say it's thematic to spend a couple feats and items on picking up Tome of Battle tricks. You really want at least one of the Shadow Hand teleports. And pretty much all the other Shadow Hand stuff you can get your hands on.

Jallorn
2010-05-03, 02:52 PM
Clearly some people didn't fully read the opening post. This is a level 5 build with potential choices for the five levels after that. NOT LEVEL 20!

However, I should add something I didn't before, that the game is mostly core, and I won't have access to a lot of the usual culprits for min-maxing.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-03, 02:57 PM
So you're married to a Factoutm 5 entry and you don't see the character going past level 10.

How about:

Factotum 5/Urban Ranger 2/Dread Commando 3

You will need to take Dodge and Mobility, which is lame, but Dread Commando gives you a lot.

3 levels of dread commando will add +3 bab, 2 sudden strike dice, the ability to wear most armor without AC check penalty, and a +3 to initiative as well as 6+int skills per level on a good skill list.

Alternatively you could go Factotum 5/Ranger 1/Dread Commando 3/Shadow Dancer 1 and nab Hide in Plain Sight.

Another good tack would be plain old factotum 5/Assassin 5.

I couldn't fault you for going Factotum 10 either. Factotum 8 grants you extra standard actions, which is just amazing.

lsfreak
2010-05-03, 02:59 PM
EDIT: Bah, I need to read closer. I blame finals.

Jallorn
2010-05-03, 03:00 PM
I'm not married to Factotum 5 entry. But no, I don't see the character going very far past level 10, and I am married to Factotum being the primary class.

marjan
2010-05-03, 03:01 PM
For level 5 core build, go with rogue. After that, Assassin or Shadowdancer. Max stealth and take Weapon Finesse and that's about it.

Jallorn
2010-05-03, 03:01 PM
20 <class> implies you take all your level in that class, rather than PrCíng or dipping. They have given you exactly what you asked for.

They have not, I said primarily Factotum... and it doesn't address flavor much...

Person_Man
2010-05-03, 03:04 PM
Clearly some people didn't fully read the opening post. This is a level 5 build with potential choices for the five levels after that. NOT LEVEL 20!

However, I should add something I didn't before, that the game is mostly core, and I won't have access to a lot of the usual culprits for min-maxing.

Define mostly core. Because Factotum and Ninja are both clearly non-core.

lsfreak
2010-05-03, 03:07 PM
They have not, I said primarily Factotum... and it doesn't address flavor much...

Yes, but why PrC just to weaken yourself? Stick to factotum, it can do everything you want it to, except maybe make room for 1 level of monk + one of the feats to key the AC bonus to Intelligence.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-03, 03:07 PM
Ah, if you don't need factotum 5 entry, I would go with:

Factotum 3/Monk 2 to start with. As I laid out before, take kung fu genius to switch wis to int.

Then just take more factotum levels or go into assassin. both are vialbe and fun. However this build is NOT viable without kung fu genius or cammendine monk, so if it's not allowed just forget it.

Factotum 5/Assassin 5 could be fun, or Factotum 8/Assassin 3. The INT synergy is there, and factotum's ability to get extra standard actions means extra death attacks!

JaronK
2010-05-03, 03:09 PM
The best would be Factotum 20 or Factotum 18/Unarmed Swordsage 2. Either works great.

JaronK

WildPyre
2010-05-03, 03:10 PM
Hmm core classes? I'd go rogue with a 2 level dip in ranger, if you're not worried about min maxing.

For race I might suggest goblin or halfling. Their small size gives a bonus to hide, the goblin gives you a larger bonus to move silently and a base speed of 30 feet, but halfling has better saves, a listen bonus and a +1 to throwing weapons.

Jallorn
2010-05-03, 03:10 PM
Define mostly core. Because Factotum and Ninja are both clearly non-core.

Just as little non-core as possible. Ninja is only for comparison.

crazedloon
2010-05-03, 03:20 PM
Just as little non-core as possible. Ninja is only for comparison.

but does that mean no ToB because though you still seem to want to go Factotum I will stress Swordsage as doing all the ninja stuff you need without much need for trying to squeeze in a lot of feats or stuff from other books.

by level 5 you can
walk on walls
track people by scent
choke someone from across the room while on the wall
turn invisible
teleport
are concealed as you move
can throw quite a few extra damage die if you need to (as well as adding wis to damage)

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-03, 03:26 PM
One other ACF to note if you go the monk route:

Decisive Strike from PHB 2 replaces flury of blows and lets you do one attack with double damage (and double damage on all attacks of opportunity and other extra attacks you get that round).

This, besides being very ninja-like, has good synergy with factotum.

First, you make your decisive strike attack and spent inspiration to add +int to hit. You will probably hit. Then, if you do hit, you can spend inspiration to add +int to damage, which is automatically doubled! This is a great move for a ninja, and if you're invisible due to the other monk ACF, all the better.

goken04
2010-05-03, 04:32 PM
Whisper Gnome makes for an excellent ninja, if it's allowed. Otherwise, my vote goes for goblin as well. And I second the Factotum 3/Monk 2 EE ACF Kung-Fu Genius build.

JaronK
2010-05-03, 04:49 PM
If you can't do anything else outside of core, stay in Factotum the whole way. If you can do something else, Unarmed Swordsage is absolutely worth a two level dip.

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-03, 05:14 PM
Rogue1/Swordsage19.

Take the Changeling Alternate Class Feature to be able to Take 10 on social skills. This gives you the Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomancy skills necessary to be able to convincingly say "I am not a Ninja".

Then go Swordsage with a lot of Shadow Hand, Setting Sun (possible Shadow Sun Ninja PrC option), a bit of Diamond Mind to shore up some defenses, and Tiger Claw for damage output.

You end up with someone who can do the following:

one-shot Big T.

Run across water and bamboo branches

Not be seen. Yes, not even then

Convince anyone of anything at any time

Infiltrate, assassinate, and vanish... without a trace