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View Full Version : Alignment help [VT's players stay out]



Froogleyboy
2010-05-03, 06:33 PM
Okay, I have an idea for a character but I'm not sure what alignment it'd be. See, He's a young half-fey/fiend(haven't decided yet) who was born into a highly religious town. When the local clergy found out about him, they confiscated him in the name of the church. All of his live he was taught that he was born out of an unholy union and that the only way to redeem himself is to serve (Deity that I haven't discussed with VT yet, will discuss later). He has been brainwashed into thinking that he doesn't deserve to live, and he longed for a friend. But, as they say, you can take the boy out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the boy. Or, in this case, you can't take the lower plains out of said boy (yeah, fey aren't from the lower plains, I know, but the church taught him otherwise). Soon, fiends begin to talk to him in his dreams, teaching him ways to summon them (so they could infiltrate the church or something). Now he, being a child, simply saw these beings as people willing to be his friends, so he jumped at the opportunity. Soon he began seeking out ways to communicate with these beings. Devils, Demons, pretty much anything from the lower planes, he wasn't picky. Now generally, summoning demons is a bad thing, right? But his intent isn't evil. He is simply trying to make friends, and those friends happen to be demons.

TheMeMan
2010-05-03, 06:45 PM
I would say probably true Neutral, or Neutral Good. Chaotic good would probably not be consorting with such, Lawful Good would not enjoy the association, and the evils don't really fit the intentions.

That's my take, at least.

TheYoungKing
2010-05-03, 06:48 PM
Still Evil. Maybe not capital E evil.

Why? Well, "Evil for a Good Cause" doesn't translate to Good and I don't think "Evil Because I like, Didn't Understand" translates to Good either.

He has been told that these beings are Evil. He should be able to tell they are Evil. And yet, he continues to summon them, probably knowing full well what his friend's intentions are. Its not like Barbed Devils are bringing him a puppy.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-03, 06:58 PM
Sounds kind of like a malconvoker. So definitely not evil.

TheYoungKing
2010-05-03, 07:10 PM
Sounds kind of like a malconvoker. So definitely not evil.

'Fraid not. A Malconvoker uses their summoning of evil beings to fight evil. That is just resource management, and the Malconvoker goes in fully aware that the beings they deal with are Evil and act accordingly.

This person goes into summoning for no reason (Beyond a Tsukiko-esque "They're just misunderstood!" schtick) They willingly consort with Evil beings and do so in a friendly manner. All this while knowing full well that they are Evil beings, and definitely knowing that they harbor a grudge against the Church where he lives.

Evil.

Deme
2010-05-03, 07:18 PM
It depends on the answer to two questions.

#1: What does he think his friends will do if he summons them? Because if he sincerely doesn't think that they would hurt anyone, then he's probably not evil.

#2: Would he be all right with his new buddies if they decided to do some very not-nice things? His alignment would then depend on how much not-niceness to the world around him occured before he drew the line.

He's definately not Good, though, since his main motivation is self-interest, not in helping other people. Where he is when it comes to either being Neutral or Evil depends on how much collateral damage he can stand to be done in the name of his interests.

He's probable Neutral or Chaotic ethically, though, given that he was willing and happy to go against the only authority he has.

Froogleyboy
2010-05-03, 07:19 PM
Still Evil. Maybe not capital E evil.

Why? Well, "Evil for a Good Cause" doesn't translate to Good and I don't think "Evil Because I like, Didn't Understand" translates to Good either.

He has been told that these beings are Evil. He should be able to tell they are Evil. And yet, he continues to summon them, probably knowing full well what his friend's intentions are. Its not like Barbed Devils are bringing him a puppy.

no, he is completely ignorant to the nature of such beings. It went down more like him having a dream of something trying to converse with him. He was ecstatic about the fact that something wanted to talk to him, and when the being (lets say he's an imp) told him how to bring him and more like him to the church. His young mind processed it like "Hey buddy, if you [insert instructions on demon summoning], me and my friends will be able to come visit you and we can be best friends!"


It depends on the answer to two questions.

#1: What does he think his friends will do if he summons them? Because if he sincerely doesn't think that they would hurt anyone, then he's probably not evil.

#2: Would he be all right with his new buddies if they decided to do some very not-nice things? His alignment would then depend on how much not-niceness to the world around him occured before he drew the line.
#1. He simply thinks they want to come and play, hang out, etc.
#2. Well, He's kinda like one of those pushover friends we all had in elementary school. It went down something like this I guess:
Him: "Hey, you shouldn't do those kind of things! It's mean!"
Fiend: "Okay, I won't do it again."
Him: "Okay, but this is the last time!"

Also, I think the fiends would wise up to the fact that they shouldn't do too much damage when he's around. Also, since the point of summoning is to make them do what the summoner wants, they'd probably think "Okay, I'll do this or that to keep him happy"

Riffington
2010-05-03, 07:28 PM
no, he is completely ignorant to the nature of such beings. It went down more like him having a dream of something trying to converse with him. He was ecstatic about the fact that something wanted to talk to him, and when the being (lets say he's an imp) told him how to bring him and more like him to the church. His young mind processed it like "Hey buddy, if you [insert instructions on demon summoning], me and my friends will be able to come visit you and we can be best friends!"

Then he's not yet affected his alignment.
That'll change of course, because such beings will corrupt him soon enough.

Froogleyboy
2010-05-03, 07:31 PM
Then he's not yet affected his alignment.
That'll change of course, because such beings will corrupt him soon enough.

True, I was thinking maybe neutral because the only evil acts he commits are those that the fiends have convinced him are good

Riffington
2010-05-03, 10:58 PM
True, I was thinking maybe neutral because the only evil acts he commits are those that the fiends have convinced him are good

Wait, what kind of evil acts are these? My previous assessment assumed he wasn't doing any himself yet.

TheYoungKing
2010-05-04, 06:27 AM
No way he is that ignorant if he has been given even perfunctory teaching by the church that took him in.

Froogleyboy
2010-05-04, 06:42 AM
No way he is that ignorant if he has been given even perfunctory teaching by the church that took him in.

Good point, but the church mainly taught him that he is evil, not specific creatures

Optimystik
2010-05-04, 06:49 AM
No way he is that ignorant if he has been given even perfunctory teaching by the church that took him in.

Teaching doesn't matter if you can't understand it.
You can recite the Theory of Relativity in detail to a baby, that doesn't make it educated.

Critical
2010-05-04, 06:59 AM
I'd say Chaotic Neutral.

poisonoustea
2010-05-04, 07:12 AM
What is his Wisdom score? I think it's the only way to determine whether he's NN or NE.

Optimystik
2010-05-04, 07:16 AM
What is his Wisdom score? I think it's the only way to determine whether he's NN or NE.

What does that have to do with it? A ghoul, a bat, a Leonal and the Tarrasque all have the same Wisdom score, it doesn't seem to have any effect on alignment. (Despite what Belkar might have you believe.)

poisonoustea
2010-05-04, 07:29 AM
His Wisdom score would be useful to determine whether he does or does not understand he's doing an evil act by summoning his 'friends' - I'm supposing that a character's perception of evil and good is partly due to education and partly due to a gut feeling... the GM, in any case, has the final say.
I'd say NN.

Optimystik
2010-05-04, 07:33 AM
You missed my point. Several animals have decent Wisdom scores, but they still cannot tell right from wrong. Merely having a given ability score (and more importantly, lacking it) neither confers nor obviates mens rea.

By your logic, a half-orc barbarian with 6 Wis can never be Evil, no matter how much marauding/pillaging he does.

poisonoustea
2010-05-04, 07:41 AM
In theory, yes... and it wouldn't be illogical if this weren't D&D :smalltongue:
Yet this is D&D, so let's scratch that :smallbiggrin:

It's the GM's choice, then. Either NN or NE would be a reasonable alignment.

Froogleyboy
2010-05-05, 03:46 PM
I was thinking maybe cn, but maybe I'm wrong

hamishspence
2010-05-05, 03:51 PM
"consorting with fiends" is one of those things that, while BoVD argues is evil, seems to be excused a lot.

Devils and archons alike ally as part of organizations like the Regulators, a big part of the finale of Savage Tide path in Dungeon magazine is persuading demons and eladrins to work together to thwart Demogorgon, and so on.

Consorting with demons/devils out of ignorance, might not be evil enough to justify an evil alignment. Especially if this character, on seeing one of his "friends" do an evil thing, tries to stop them.