Medieval Swordfighting

[DSCrankshaw]

So yesterday I had a 5+ hour lesson on the Medieval Longsword, based largely on the research from the German fight manuals.

Has anyone else done something like this? What has your experience been like?

[Catch]

As far as I understand it, the German longsword school is similar to the Italian.

I learned from an excellent school (http://www.chicagoswordplayguild.com/c/) teaching a 14th-century Italian manuals, specifically the Flos Duellatorum by Fiore dei Liberi da Premariacco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiore_dei_Liberi), and the later additions of Filippo Vadi. There are eleven guards (counting Vadi's later addition of posta falcone) divided into stable, instable, and pulsatina, or "smiting." Five cutting directions, four thrusts, and the body is divided into four target areas. Sound familiar at all?

[DSCrankshaw]

As far as I understand it, the German longsword school is similar to the Italian.

I learned from an excellent school (http://www.chicagoswordplayguild.com/c/) teaching a 14th-century Italian manuals, specifically the Flos Duellatorum by Fiore dei Liberi da Premariacco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiore_dei_Liberi), and the later additions of Filippo Vadi. There are eleven guards (counting Vadi's later addition of posta falcone) divided into stable, instable, and pulsatina, or "smiting." Five cutting directions, four thrusts, and the body is divided into four target areas. Sound familiar at all?

Well, I only learned three guards (six, if you count each side separately), four cutting directions, and four thrusts, but it was only a one day lesson. Plus, all the terms were in German. So it's a little hard to say how well they match up. :smallwink:

This (https://sites.google.com/site/kunstbruder/) was the group I had the lesson with, although I understand there are a number of these around Massachusetts. They're based on the Lichtenauer tradition.

[AngelSword]

For a brief time, my (then) girlfriend and I took lessons with The Order of Selohaar (http://www.selohaar.org/), whose tradition and training is actually a form of magical ritual (in the pagan sense). I haven't been with them for quite a while, but I do get to see them every now and then at various faires.

[rayne_dragon]

I've only done SCA and Amtgard, which are both rather free-form in fighting style from what I've seen. On the other hand, free-form lets you develop a style that's immediately practical since you won't be getting smacked around as much when you learn to block. It's nice to see that the hobby in general is popular enough to have so many different organizations with their own specific niche.

[DSCrankshaw]

I did a little bit of background research, for those who might be interested.

As I said, they were based on the Liechtenauer tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenauer), and while they mentioned several manuals they've studied, the only one I recall is Talhoffer (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/talhoffer.htm) (the manual is a great resource if you want a primary source about swordplay--I provided a link to the ARMA version, although it doesn't include everything). They also work and exchange ideas with similar societies, including Forte Swordplay (https://sites.google.com/site/forteswordplay/Home). Forte swordplay also has some useful illustrations (https://sites.google.com/site/forteswordplay/Home/knowledge-base) and videos (https://sites.google.com/site/forteswordplay/Home/practice-training) on the techniques.

As for what I specifically learned, we used Middle Balance (https://sites.google.com/site/forteswordplay/Home/knowledge-base/three-balances) and didn't cover any of the others, though we spent a good portion of time on the footwork (https://sites.google.com/site/forteswordplay/Home/practice-training/basic-footwork), including forward and backward passes and the triangle and double triangle. We also covered the Vom Tag (From the Roof), Ochs (Ox), and Pflug (Plow) guards (https://sites.google.com/site/forteswordplay/Home/knowledge-base/principle-guards). We used some of the others (https://sites.google.com/site/forteswordplay/Home/knowledge-base/secondary-guards), such as Langenort (Longpoint) and Wechsel (Change), but didn't go into detail concerning them. For cuts, we learned Vnderhow (Underhand) and Oberhow (Overhand). Finally, we learned a couple of Mastercuts, though I don't remember the names of them, and then did some free sparring.

[Timeras]

I've been training this for seven years, we mostly use the long sword, sometimes the Katzbalger and rarely the Zweihänder (Only few of the others have one those, so I don't get the chance very often). And somtimes we train with daggers.

[Force]

I'm a Bel/Dag fighter (and not a very good one), considering SCA once I get my armor finished. There's an ARMA group starting on campus, though, so...

[Adlan]

I've done a little. Go check out the Real Worlds Arms Adn Armour thread, there's some really knowledgeable people in there.

[DSCrankshaw]

I'm a Bel/Dag fighter (and not a very good one), considering SCA once I get my armor finished. There's an ARMA group starting on campus, though, so...

From what I've read, ARMA is really good about historical accuracy. I have a lot of respect for them. The SCA is much more freeform. In some sense, they're a lot like modern fencing--a sport, rather than an accurate reconstruction of a martial art.

It depends on what you're interested in. For myself, I'm more interested in the original martial art than the modern sports adaptation.

The one thing is that ARMA focuses on Renaissance techniques. They do some late Medieval longsword, I know, but there's a lot of focus on rapier, which is from a different era and context (unarmored duels and streetfighting rather than armored battlefield combat). You should probably check to see whether your campus's group's interests line up with yours.

[valadil]

This (https://sites.google.com/site/kunstbruder/) was the group I had the lesson with, although I understand there are a number of these around Massachusetts. They're based on the Lichtenauer tradition.

There's a group doing non-SCA, non-LARP swordfighting in MA and I wasn't informed? How do I sign up? Is it possible to do guided practice without doing the basic class first? (I ask because I can walk to guided practice, but driving to watertown that time of night is prohibitive).

Adlan, came in here to suggest that. There's a lot of HEMA/ARMA love in the Real World Weapons and Armor thread.

[DSCrankshaw]

There's a group doing non-SCA, non-LARP swordfighting in MA and I wasn't informed? How do I sign up? Is it possible to do guided practice without doing the basic class first? (I ask because I can walk to guided practice, but driving to watertown that time of night is prohibitive).

Adlan, came in here to suggest that. There's a lot of HEMA/ARMA love in the Real World Weapons and Armor thread.

Hmm, I hadn't realized the Real World Weapons and Armor thread was still around, since it was no longer stickied and I didn't see it on the front page when I looked for it yesterday. But I see that it's there now--it must've become momentarily lost in the high traffic of that board.

If you're interested but the class doesn't work for you, you can e-mail them and see what they recommend. They were also recommending other groups to people at the seminar on Sunday who weren't local, so I know there are other groups in Massachusetts.

[valadil]

If you're interested but the class doesn't work for you, you can e-mail them and see what they recommend. They were also recommending other groups to people at the seminar on Sunday who weren't local, so I know there are other groups in Massachusetts.

Emailed! If completion of the basic class is required for guided practice, I can suck up 6 trips to Watertown and an extra month's gym fees. If not, hopefully they'll put me in contact with a closer group.

[DSCrankshaw]

Good luck. I'm not sure whether or not I'll be taking further lessons, but I did buy a waster for practicing on my own.

[Force]

From what I've read, ARMA is really good about historical accuracy. I have a lot of respect for them. The SCA is much more freeform. In some sense, they're a lot like modern fencing--a sport, rather than an accurate reconstruction of a martial art.

It depends on what you're interested in. For myself, I'm more interested in the original martial art than the modern sports adaptation.

The one thing is that ARMA focuses on Renaissance techniques. They do some late Medieval longsword, I know, but there's a lot of focus on rapier, which is from a different era and context (unarmored duels and streetfighting rather than armored battlefield combat). You should probably check to see whether your campus's group's interests line up with yours.

I'm more freeform. Belegarth suits me because it's easy to pick up and play; full-contact without a suit of armor, SCA style, and much more casual. The campus group's leader's primary is longsword, so I think I'll be set. If nothing else the two of us can spar.

[Agamid]

i was a member and even co-president of a German medieval re-enactment group for about 8 years.
i was never really interesting in taking part in the fighting, but it's pretty fun to watch and i'm pretty good at picking technique now.

[Bouregard]

http://www.geekologie.com/2010/05/i_must_have_it_the_twohanded_g.php


I always thoutgh katanas and those other eastern weapons where kinda childish. Greatswords, bastardswords and old european weapons are the way to go.