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Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 08:51 PM
I will soon be DMing what I hope will become a perfectly reasonable Tier 3 campaign. There is, however, one slight problem.

One of the people I play with is currently under the delusion that Paladins are one of, if not the best class in D&D 3.5. A list of his reasoning (my comments in bold):

Look at how awesome they are at epic levels. Anyone can do anything at epic.
Smite Evil gets me tons of extra damage. Except if they're, y'know, not evil.
They have great roleplay potential. A LG Crusader can do it without the stick being forced.
Use Detect Evil! Oh, wait, we need a Paladin. Or a Rainbow Servant. Or a Sacred Exorcist. Or a Church Inquisitor...
Just look at the stats that I rolled. *twitch*
Divine Grace is amazing. He's right, they have some sexy saves, but I did point out that it would only take a 2 level dip.

I also pointed out MADness and several other key points.

Normally, and as of right now, I would drop it. Unfortunately, as soon as I say that Tier 3 campaign = No Paladins (except dips) and so much as mention 32 point-buy, he'll probably flip. The alternative is let him play a pally and have him be horribly underpowered, which he will then label as bias.

Everyone else already plays at a Tier 3 level, or will have very little trouble adjusting. This one guy is the only obstacle.

How can I get him to see it my way without looking condecending?

tl;dr version: How do you convince someone that Paladins suck?

(Note: No, kicking him out is not an option.)

Kylarra
2010-05-03, 08:57 PM
Why not just use one of the paladin "fixes" floating around the board?

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 08:59 PM
Why not just use one of the paladin "fixes" floating around the board?

I generally don't like pulling out homebrew, especially when there's already the Crusader.

Kylarra
2010-05-03, 09:02 PM
I generally don't like pulling out homebrew, especially when there's already the Crusader.Well here's a sidestep solution. Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin).

Catch
2010-05-03, 09:04 PM
Or you could let him play the character he wants, and if he stops enjoying it, give him the opportunity to re-roll as something else. Otherwise, if the player is happy and his character isn't breaking the game, why worry?

Not everyone is especially concerned with mechanical superiority, and that's no reason to tell him to Stop Having Fun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys).

Eurus
2010-05-03, 09:04 PM
It's possible that you might be able to convince him that the Crusader is, in fact, intended as an "official" Paladin fix. I'd probably go about attempting this by explaining how a Crusader is capable of doing very nearly anything that a Paladin can do (no Detect Evil, unfortunately, but plenty of smiting and healing), and is just plain better at it. Then ask why WotC would print an improved Paladin class if it wasn't intended to replace the old one*.

*: This is technically a fallacious argument since it assumes an uncharacteristic level of competence and cohesiveness on WotC's part, but it's worth a shot at least.

EDIT:
Or you could let him play the character he wants, and if he stops enjoying it, give him the opportunity to re-roll as something else. Otherwise, if the player is happy and his character isn't breaking the game, why worry?

Not everyone is especially concerned with mechanical superiority, and that's no reason to tell him to Stop Having Fun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys).

That's fine, but the OP stated that his concern is that the player won't have fun if his character is noticeably weaker than the rest of the party, and will blame him.

Pluto
2010-05-03, 09:07 PM
What Catch said ^.

He's the one who'll be punished if he feels he's not contributing. And even then, with Crusader, Battle Blessing and a refluffed Ruby Knight Vindicator to fall back on, it would be hard for anything to go wrong.

Flickerdart
2010-05-03, 09:09 PM
The Paladin is a plenty powerful class...as a mounted charger and so long as you PrC out by 7th level. Other than that, not so much.

JeminiZero
2010-05-03, 09:10 PM
The issue seems to be that you are arguing in a vacuum. You can't just say that paladins (or any other class) are weak. Instead, you have to show the case that paladins are weak vs other classes. So maybe take a standard T3 class, and compare the numbers/effects vs a paladin.

Like a Swordsage/Warblades perhaps. At level 3, they can grab mountain hammer. Extra 2d6 damage (average 7) ignore hardness AND DR, usable all day. Then compare that with Smite Evil (Cha to attack roll, +3 to damage roll, once per day). Save wise, they can use the various diamond mind manevers to substitute a Concentration check (so they can muster +8 at level 3, and it gets better). And so on and so forth.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 09:11 PM
What Catch said ^.

He's the one who'll be punished if he feels he's not contributing. And even then, with Crusader, Battle Blessing and a refluffed Ruby Knight Vindicator to fall back on, it would be hard for anything to go wrong.

I should probably mention that by Paladin, I mean Paladin20. He's firmly convinced that PrCs for martial characters are strictly a bad idea. And I'm hoping to avoid the need to have a fall back in the first place, but I'll make sure to keep his options open.

Edit:
The issue seems to be that you are arguing in a vacuum. You can't just say that paladins (or any other class) are weak. Instead, you have to show the case that paladins are weak vs other classes. So maybe take a standard T3 class, and compare the numbers/effects vs a paladin.

I did that with Crusader...

Krazddndfreek
2010-05-03, 09:13 PM
I should probably mention that by Paladin, I mean straight Paladin. He's firmly convinced that PrCs for martial characters are strictly a bad idea. And I'm hoping to avoid the need to have a fall back in the first place, but I'll make sure to keep his options open.

I literally giggled out loud when I read this :smalltongue:

Can I ask why he thinks this? The only reason I can come up with is that he thinks he'd be losing out on smites per day or spells. Easy to convince him the other way around, just compare to PrCs.

JeminiZero
2010-05-03, 09:15 PM
I did that with Crusader...

Then there's the old fallback of a duel. Have a quick match outside the game pitting the Paladin vs Prestige Paladin/Crusader, as a showcase of mechanics. Best 3 out of 5 to drive home the point.

Godskook
2010-05-03, 09:17 PM
1.Tier 3 is not a small target. ToB out-of-the-box is not as powerful as a core paladin is capable of getting. Help him optimize, and he'll hit strong enough. And also note, ToB doesn't really have any more damage potential than splat melee, just more non-damage potential. Help him optimize his power-attack with things like Shock Trooper, and let him enjoy the damage.

2.Make smite a per-encounter ability. 90% of enemies get it this way, so if it isn't overpowered.

3.Sword of the arcane order gives him wizard spells in his spell slots, a wonderful thing indeed.

4.What level are you dealing with?

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 09:20 PM
I literally giggled out loud when I read this :smalltongue:

Can I ask why he thinks this? The only reason I can come up with is that he thinks he'd be losing out on smites per day or spells. Easy to convince him the other way around, just compare to PrCs.

Lost Smites/day, plus confusion over how the BAB rules work. I suggested Gray Guard, since you can remove the stick, and he looked it up, took one look, and said it was horrible.


Then there's the old fallback of a duel. Have a quick match outside the game pitting the Paladin vs Prestige Paladin/Crusader, as a showcase of mechanics. Best 3 out of 5 to drive home the point.

This seems like a good idea, but setting up a 1 vs. 1 just so the pally can lose seems a bit, well, hmm... I can't think of any words that would be allowed.

Edit:
1.Tier 3 is not a small target. ToB out-of-the-box is not as powerful as a core paladin is capable of getting. Help him optimize, and he'll hit strong enough. And also note, ToB doesn't really have any more damage potential than splat melee, just more non-damage potential. Help him optimize his power-attack with things like Shock Trooper, and let him enjoy the damage.

2.Make smite a per-encounter ability. 90% of enemies get it this way, so if it isn't overpowered.

3.Sword of the arcane order gives him wizard spells in his spell slots, a wonderful thing indeed.

4.What level are you dealing with?

1. I know, but, as Xykon would say, "Having a big bag of damage dice isn't any good when the other guy has a big bag of damage dice AND status effects."

2. I like this suggestion. I may use it.

3. He doesn't like PrCs with his Paladin.

4. All. We usually run 1-20, sometimes epic.

Pluto
2010-05-03, 09:20 PM
I should probably mention that by Paladin, I mean straight Paladin. He's firmly convinced that PrCs for martial characters are strictly a bad idea. And I'm hoping to avoid the need to have a fall back in the first place, but I'll make sure to keep his options open.
Edit:
I did that with Crusader...
That's rough.

If a comparison with the Crusader isn't enough, he's probably not going to be swayed.

If you really don't want him playing a PHB Pally, what you might do is alter the class itself. Say, make sure he has the SpC spells available, tack Bard-rate spell progression onto the class (draw higher-level spells from the Cleric list) and give him an extra 2 skill points per level.

He gets to play his Paladin (with extra abilities even).
You get him to play a tier 3-ish character.
Everybody wins.

Prodan
2010-05-03, 09:20 PM
One of the people I play with is currently under the delusion that Paladins are one of, if not the best class in D&D 3.5.

Perhaps you should destroy him with spells?

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 09:25 PM
Perhaps you should destroy him with spells?

Funny thing, I'm actually the party mage. Outside of combat, they go bumbling into everything before I can have a go, and inside, my BFC gets no recognition.

Edit:
That's rough.

If a comparison with the Crusader isn't enough, he's probably not going to be swayed.

If you really don't want him playing a PHB Pally, what you might do is alter the class itself. Say, make sure he has the SpC spells available, tack Bard-rate spell progression onto the class (draw higher-level spells from the Cleric list) and give him an extra 2 skill points per level.

He gets to play his Paladin (with extra abilities even).
You get him to play a tier 3-ish character.
Everybody wins.

I've actually convinced him to try Crusader, but he's not convinced. I'll see if I can convert him, but if it comes down to it, I'll just do this.

Prodan
2010-05-03, 09:26 PM
Funny thing, I'm actually the party mage. Outside of combat, they go bumbling into everything before I can have a go, and inside, my BFC gets no recognition.

Hm. Perhaps you should switch to blasting for a session or two and see how things go?

Vaynor
2010-05-03, 09:27 PM
I see no problem with him playing a paladin, they're not that bad and can be pretty fun to play. If he enjoys it, why stop him? Is it going to ruin your fun?

Prodan
2010-05-03, 09:28 PM
I see no problem with him playing a paladin, they're not that bad and can be pretty fun to play. If he enjoys it, why stop him? Is it going to ruin your fun?

Actually, since the player might go blame the DM for being "biased" when he fails due to his own choices... yes?

Flickerdart
2010-05-03, 09:28 PM
I see no problem with him playing a paladin, they're not that bad and can be pretty fun to play. If he enjoys it, why stop him? Is it going to ruin your fun?
Paladin is the number one class for fun-ruining. Remember also that the OP expects the player to "totally flip" at 32 point buy.

Vaynor
2010-05-03, 09:29 PM
Actually, since the player might go blame the DM for being "biased" when he fails due to his own choices... yes?

I think as long as the DM lets him know beforehand that he thinks it is a bad choice, and lets him re-roll if/when he realizes his mistake it should be alright. If that doesn't work, give the player a higher point-buy to equalize the party.

Well, fun-ruining only if the party tends towards the more evil acts, in which case there's an even better reason not to play the paladin that the DM can bring up.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 09:30 PM
Actually, since the player might go blame the DM for being "biased" when he fails due to his own choices... yes?

Especially when I am quite opposed to Paladins from both a mechanical and roleplaying perspective. Also, his last Paladin was a DMPC, so cushy encounters galore.

JeminiZero
2010-05-03, 09:30 PM
This seems like a good idea, but setting up a 1 vs. 1 just so the pally can lose seems a bit, well, hmm... I can't think of any words that would be allowed.

Well, a slight variant is to simulate the entire match yourself. I.e. play both the Pally and the Crusader without the player. Tabulate everything that happens round by round, and let him see it.

If he doesn't believe the results, let him run it himself (i.e. playing both sides again) and watch as he quickly realizes that the ability to smite evil a few times per day does not match up with the raw power of maneuvers.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-03, 09:31 PM
The entire premise of this thread needs to be taken outside and shot.

How can I get him to see it my way without looking condecending?He does not need to see it your way. Not with and not without looking condescending. Drop it. Let him play as he wishes. If he's not enjoying at some point, work out options like rolling up a new char.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 09:33 PM
The entire premise of this thread needs to be taken outside and shot.
He does not need to see it your way. Not with and not without looking condescending. Drop it. Let him play as he wishes. If he's not enjoying at some point, work out options like rolling up a new char.

As I mentioned in the original post, as of right now, it is dropped. It's just that I'd rather avoid the problem of one gimped party member if I can nip it in the bud before it impacts the campaign.

Godskook
2010-05-03, 09:39 PM
3. He doesn't like PrCs with his Paladin.

4. All. We usually run 1-20, sometimes epic.

3.Sword of the Arcane Order is a feat, not a PrC.

4.He'll be good for the first half.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 09:40 PM
3.Sword of the Arcane Order is a feat, not a PrC.

4.He'll be good for the first half.

3. Good to know.

4. What happens in the second half?

Shiva asori
2010-05-03, 09:44 PM
then planar binding starts coming in with the rest of the broken spells I'm guessing.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 09:46 PM
then planar binding starts coming in with the rest of the broken spells I'm guessing.

The fun thing about Tier 3 is that it's easier to keep a lid on the broken-ness.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-03, 10:00 PM
Here's what you do.

Explain the relative power (tier) system, and say that you think the Paladin is going to be a weak option.
When he insists, let him play a Paladin anyway.
Then direct him to the list of Alternative Class Features (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) for the Paladin, so at least he'll have some options for improvement.
When the Paladin character gets killed, insist that the player choose something else.
Personally, I'd much prefer to bring a Rogue to a Tier 3 game. But then, I know how to make it function on par with them. The fact that it takes a lot of work to do so is part of the fun. :smallwink:

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 10:02 PM
Here's what you do.

Explain the relative power (tier) system, and say that you think the Paladin is going to be a weak option.
When he insists, let him play a Paladin anyway.
Then direct him to the list of Alternative Class Features (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III) for the Paladin, so at least he'll have some options for improvement.
When the Paladin character gets killed, insist that the player choose something else.
Personally, I'd much prefer to bring a Rogue to a Tier 3 game. But then, I know how to make it function on par with them. The fact that it takes a lot of work to do so is part of the fun. :smallwink:

This seems like my best option. Granted, if he refuses to play anything else if his Paladin ends up dying or being gimped, I'll just have to use homebrew, which is generally my last resort.

gdiddy
2010-05-03, 10:04 PM
Let him play. If he is not having fun, you have a whole party of tier 3 people who will back you up and say that Wizard made a poor class with the paladin.

Honestly, if he enjoys it, let him have fun.

Don't pick on him, but don't hold back.

Some people like playing on hard mode, no reason to ruin it for them.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 10:09 PM
Now that I have a few options, is there any surefire way to close this before more people mistakenly think I'm one of these? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys)

Godskook
2010-05-03, 10:09 PM
4. What happens in the second half?

Trick him out with companions? Dragon Steed gives him a 14HD dragon to ride(or a 15HD if you allow the steed to take class levels instead of grow up from very young to young. Hint, hint).

Dragon Cohort adds another dragon of the same power level.

If he can fly around on a pair of gold dragons, he should be able to be useful, even if he doesn't prove to be the most valuable team member.

Also, if you go epic, improved spell capacity, combined with sword of the arcane order, nets him full wizard casting eventually, as well as epic spellcasting by L30.

Finally, as a DM, you can make conscious effort to include a lot more lower-level monsters in your encounters. The type that take resources(Like smite) to 1-shot, but aren't encounter defining(Read: Bruisers like elementals who can take a hit or two from most players but won't 'define' the encounter like the main creature does(Say a pyromancer flanked by a few fire elementals, or a succubus with quite a few lions)

NeoVid
2010-05-03, 10:19 PM
Granted, if he refuses to play anything else if his Paladin ends up dying or being gimped

Instate a rule up front for the campaign that players have to play a different class when they replace a dead character.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 10:22 PM
Instate a rule up front for the campaign that players have to play a different class when they replace a dead character.

If I do that, then I have to build a Deus Ex Machina into every encounter to safeguard against a string of bad die rolls.

Godskook
2010-05-03, 10:25 PM
If I do that, then I have to build a Deus Ex Machina into every encounter to safeguard against a string of bad die rolls.

Huh?

Player #1:
1.Wizard
2.Cleric
3.Druid

Player #2:
1.Paladin
2.Barbarian
3.Paladin

Don't see where you'd need a DEM for anything.

lsfreak
2010-05-03, 10:31 PM
Take a paladin.
Make Smite per-encounter.
Take Battle Blessing (CC feat), for swift action spells
Take Law Devotion (CC feat), for turning useless Turn Undead into +dmg or +defense
Take Travel Devotion (CC feat), for turning useless Turn Undead into pseudo-pounce.
Take Charging Smite (CC ACF), to get rid of the often-useless-in-dungeons-mount for an often-useful-extra-damage.
Take Awesome Smite (CC tactical feat), to allow useful things on smiting.

He's now a fairly solid T4 character. It would be better if he took Ordained Champion (also CC - sense a pattern here?), but if he refuses to PrC, then that's not in. MAD remains a problem, but that there gives him a lot more options. Probably not enough to pump him into T3 territory (dropping the useless class features, tinkering with Lay on Hands a la OneWingedAngel's fix, and giving him wings at mid levels would do it), but fairly close.

Serpentine
2010-05-03, 10:36 PM
Everyone else is probably better at advising on this than me, but I do have one thought:
This seems like a good idea, but setting up a 1 vs. 1 just so the pally can lose seems a bit, well, hmm... I can't think of any words that would be allowed.Then don't do it so he can lose. Let him make his Paladin how he wants it, and then put it against a character of your target power level so he can prove to you that it's good enough. Make sure all rolls and calculations are done in the open to make it clear it's a fair fight. If he wins enough, it should work in your game. If he loses, try convincing him again and/or look into options to make his character more powerful. I sort of suggest not trying to convince him he's wrong, but rather direct his attention to things that are the sort of thing he's interested in (also demonstrating that you've been listening to him), but could work better. Try the duel again with the improved character. Repeat until you get a character that will work in your game.
Also, don't forget: the stick is not, in fact, a class feature, just an interpretation of one.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-03, 10:36 PM
Player #2:
1.Paladin
2.Barbarian
3.Paladin

I did not consider character suicide.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-03, 10:44 PM
I'm using Surrealistik's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133737) Paladin and I like it.

It'll keep him up in power if he's really so opposed to being the Crusader. May be too powerful but that's your decision.

erikun
2010-05-03, 10:48 PM
Well, my quick suggestions.

1.) Since the Paladin's Code is the main identifying feature of the Paladin, allow the player to play a Crusader or Cleric with the Paladin's Code and the Paladin's Detect Evil ability.

2.) Modify the Holy Liberator prestige class (Complete Divine) into LG requirements. It advances both Smite Evil and the Animal Companion/Mount, along with getting its own accelerated spell list.

3.) Use the Prestige Paladin, stating that the Paladin is something you become, not just are. Having both Cleric and Paladin spells will be more useful to him.

Also, I'd recommend revising the details of the Paladin's Code, depending on deity. As it stands, a Paladin automatically falls if he has a LE commander, as anything he does will either be "associating with the evil" or acting non-lawfully.

Other than that, just let him play a paladin and see how well it goes. You might be surprised. I've ran a terribly optimized Fighter/Paladin once that needed to retire, because he dominated fights anyways.

AtwasAwamps
2010-05-04, 07:54 AM
Also, don't forget: the stick is not, in fact, a class feature, just an interpretation of one.

I love you.

I always get a little frustrated when people go "Oh no a paladin now we can't have fun because he's a paladin."

Yes. Because the charismatic, wise servant of a god is going to act like some kind of psychotic goodness cop.

Person_Man
2010-05-04, 08:41 AM
In general there is no reason to try to change anyone's mind about any subject, unless you intrinsically enjoy hearing yourself argue. (Which I do, by the way. But I'm aware of my motivations). People's opinions are generally not the result of empirical observation, and when they are they're subject to observational bias and and logical fallacies. And for any given decision, there's often just too much information to process. Instead, our decisions are almost always an outgrowth of our experiences and personality, which are in turn a result of our biology and environment. The only way you can really change a person is to change those things, and it's very hard to do that with words.

Now if you want someone to do something (vote for your candidate, give you money, agree to your choice of dinner options) it's a lot easier. You just need to listen to them (both so that they feel heard and so that you learn about them), and then tailor your response to fit with their motivation and world view. If they believe that what you want is in their self interest, they'll far more likely to do it.

Also, any Paladin (or any build really) can be balanced out with other classes by taking Leadership. If his character isn't strong or interesting enough for your game, let him ride around on dragon mount that he can Share Spells with.

Gnaeus
2010-05-04, 10:37 AM
Go to the Pathfinder SRD. Click on Paladin. Copy. Paste. Print.

Seriously, regardless of the other balance problems with PF (and there are many) their paladin fix is solid.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-04, 01:13 PM
Go to the Pathfinder SRD. Click on Paladin. Copy. Paste. Print.

Seriously, regardless of the other balance problems with PF (and there are many) their paladin fix is solid.

^ This.

Further, the Feat that makes all of the Paladin's abilities key off Wisdom will be of great help. Then this:


Take a paladin.
Make Smite per-encounter.
Take Battle Blessing (CC feat), for swift action spells
Take Law Devotion (CC feat), for turning useless Turn Undead into +dmg or +defense
Take Travel Devotion (CC feat), for turning useless Turn Undead into pseudo-pounce.
Take Charging Smite (CC ACF), to get rid of the often-useless-in-dungeons-mount for an often-useful-extra-damage.
Take Awesome Smite (CC tactical feat), to allow useful things on smiting.

He's now a fairly solid T4 character. It would be better if he took Ordained Champion (also CC - sense a pattern here?), but if he refuses to PrC, then that's not in. MAD remains a problem, but that there gives him a lot more options. Probably not enough to pump him into T3 territory (dropping the useless class features, tinkering with Lay on Hands a la OneWingedAngel's fix, and giving him wings at mid levels would do it), but fairly close.

A good Feat Selection can make a blah character into a cool character.

Saph
2010-05-04, 01:15 PM
^ This.

Further, the Feat that makes all of the Paladin's abilities key off Wisdom will be of great help.

Actually, since Pathfinder Pallies base their spellcasting off Charisma and have a good Will save they don't even need it. They can dump Wisdom without much worry.

lsfreak
2010-05-04, 01:16 PM
A good Feat Selection can make a blah character into a cool character.

You quoting me made me notice I had Charging Smite listed in Complete Champion, when it's in PHB2.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-04, 01:36 PM
Further, the Feat that makes all of the Paladin's abilities key off Wisdom will be of great help.

What feat is this?

Flickerdart
2010-05-04, 01:39 PM
What feat is this?
Serenity from, I believe, a Dragon Magazine.