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Leliel
2010-05-03, 08:53 PM
Well, as we know, once an Infernal has reached the Too Awesome For Mere Humanity To Contain Threshold (Essence 6 and above for Primordial Exalts), they start evolving into unbound Yozi-which is more or less synonymous with "Newborn Primordial".

So, when I thought about what my heroic GSP in the making is going to mutate into should the game reach the TAFMHTCT (interesting sound that makes, by the way), I began to wonder-how, exactly, is a Primordial built?

I mean, I know that they're just as much concept as creature, which is why they are worlds unto themselves, but how do they define what they embody? Why do they need their Hierarchy of Souls? What abilities do they have within their purview?

So, yeah, how do you make a Primordial?

And before you ask about the character to help define your answers: I'm thinking of a sort of counter-Maiden, an option for creatures who want to change their Destinies to more interesting ones. Besides freeing up a personal gripe with determinism I have, it also leads to a very cool name: Insurgo Fortuna, The Star of Rebellion.

And yes, he will probably be sued by the Ebon Dragon for stealing his gig.

And now, I can't help but think that this scene would happen on his first visit to Yu-Shan to fulfill his self-appointed duties.

Insurgo: *walks into Loom of Fate building* Hi! I'm here to be a big pain in the ass.

Maidens: ....EWWW!

Yep. Gotta watch those double entandres.

tribble
2010-05-03, 09:28 PM
I'm guessing that if a yozi tried to walk into Yu-shan, he would be instantly swarmed and KO'd by most, if not all, of the sidereals.
Actually, that would make for an awesome scene.\

Anyway.
Abilities.
I'm guessing you should get pretty much all the wyld-shaping charms gratis, considering that the primordials created Creation.
If in malfeas, you have the ability to erase people from existance. don't know if it's retroactive.
might think of other things later.

Primal Fury
2010-05-03, 10:29 PM
So, yeah, how do you make a Primordial?
You take the concept you want to build your Primordial around, and make an excellency out of it. All of their charms are build off of the concepts contained in that excellency. You want to be about changing destinies to more interesting ones? You would have keywords such as... lemme think... Choice and possibly freedom, with charms that reflected that, like one that zaps someone and allows them to change their destiny to something they want rather than what fate has chosen for them.


And before you ask about the character to help define your answers: I'm thinking of a sort of counter-Maiden, an option for creatures who want to change their Destinies to more interesting ones. Besides freeing up a personal gripe with determinism I have, it also leads to a very cool name: Insurgo Fortuna, The Star of Rebellion.

And yes, he will probably be sued by the Ebon Dragon for stealing his gig.
You're not really stealing his gig. You're sort of... perverting it into something more benevolent. The Ebon Dragon changes peoples destinies to make their lives suck more, you would do so to enrich them. Actually... that'd make the Ebon Dragon hate you even more.

Leliel
2010-05-04, 05:51 AM
You're not really stealing his gig. You're sort of... perverting it into something more benevolent. The Ebon Dragon changes peoples destinies to make their lives suck more, you would do so to enrich them. Actually... that'd make the Ebon Dragon hate you even more.

Yep.

No matter what happens, I get sued.

And being who he is, the Ebon Dragon probably has a Third Circle devoted entirely to being a lawyer.

The Demented One
2010-05-04, 06:39 AM
Well, as we know, once an Infernal has reached the Too Awesome For Mere Humanity To Contain Threshold (Essence 6 and above for Primordial Exalts), they start evolving into unbound Yozi-which is more or less synonymous with "Newborn Primordial".
Nope. An Infernal begins evolving into a Yozi the second they take that Yozi's charms.


So, yeah, how do you make a Primordial?
My guess is high-Essence charms, probably Essence 10 or so, that define the crucial traits of a Yozi. You can take those of an existing Yozi to become them, but I'm guessing you'll also be able to define yourself as a new Primordial, and ascend as that.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-04, 07:03 AM
...What happens when an Essence 10 Infernal takes the charms that define Adorjan as Adorjan? Does she become a second Adorjan? Do they merge? Does the previous one cease to exist? Does she get herself sliced apart because Adorjan loves herself more than she loves anyone else?

Indon
2010-05-04, 07:07 AM
...What happens when an Essence 10 Infernal takes the charms that define Adorjan as Adorjan? Does she become a second Adorjan? Do they merge? Does the previous one cease to exist? Does she get herself sliced apart because Adorjan loves herself more than she loves anyone else?

Does the Exalt wholly consume Adorjan and the Primordial cease to exist as the inherent ability to break everything that is the Exalt's Shard exerts itself in classic heroic fashion?

Lot of nice plot possibilities there. :D

Edit: Ooh, or maybe the Exalt has to vie for dominance with Adorjan directly!

Leliel
2010-05-04, 08:50 AM
Edit: Ooh, or maybe the Exalt has to vie for dominance with Adorjan directly!

"I'M the terminally insane god-wind!"

"No, I am!"

Whoever wins, Gem is toast.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-04, 09:04 AM
Whoever wins, Gem is toast.

Gem being toast is not dependent on someone winning. Even if both sides lose, Gem will be toast. Mostly because it's Gem.

The Demented One
2010-05-04, 09:06 AM
...What happens when an Essence 10 Infernal takes the charms that define Adorjan as Adorjan? Does she become a second Adorjan? Do they merge? Does the previous one cease to exist? Does she get herself sliced apart because Adorjan loves herself more than she loves anyone else?
Fun fact: being Adorjan means "being Adorjan." Adorjan has all the memories of Adorjan. Because she's Adorjan.

Indon
2010-05-04, 09:08 AM
"I'M the terminally insane god-wind!"

"No, I am!"

Whoever wins, Gem is toast.

I'd run it more like, "I'm the terminally insane god-wind here!"

"Not anymore you aren't. Also, I'm redefining you/me because I'm just that awesome. Kthxbai."

That's assuming the Infernal wins, of course.

Edit: You know what'd be an awesome story arc? A BBEG Infernal who is eating the Yozis for power. I mean, what happens if the Infernal here, after having finished up Adorjan, decided to move on to the Ebon Dragon or Malfeas?

The Demented One
2010-05-04, 09:49 AM
Edit: You know what'd be an awesome story arc? A BBEG Infernal who is eating the Yozis for power. I mean, what happens if the Infernal here, after having finished up Adorjan, decided to move on to the Ebon Dragon or Malfeas?
Not something you could do. If you become Adorjan, and you complete that transformation, you've become Adorjan, and only Adorjan. Adorjan is not a Green Sun Prince. Adorjan is not Exalted. Adorjan can not learn any charms except Adorjan charms. Adorjan Adorjan Adorjan.

Indon
2010-05-04, 09:59 AM
Not something you could do. If you become Adorjan, and you complete that transformation, you've become Adorjan, and only Adorjan. Adorjan is not a Green Sun Prince. Adorjan is not Exalted. Adorjan can not learn any charms except Adorjan charms. Adorjan Adorjan Adorjan.

I think you underestimate the power of the Green Sun Princes.

They have the ability to learn the charms of multiple Yozis already - why would the Exalt lose that? Mind that, to the best of our knowledge not even the Primordials themselves at the height of their power had the power to destroy an Exalt shard.

tonberrian
2010-05-04, 10:09 AM
I think you underestimate the power of the Green Sun Princes.

They have the ability to learn the charms of multiple Yozis already - why would the Exalt lose that? Mind that, to the best of our knowledge not even the Primordials themselves at the height of their power had the power to destroy an Exalt shard.

Because, once you become a Primordial, you no longer have a human soul - which is necessary for the exaltation to "stick" to, as it were. Since the exaltation is what allows Infernals to learn the charms of multiple Yozi (most importantly the First Excellency and everything that branches off from that, almost definitely including Yozi Apotheosis charms), you couldn't apotheosize into multiple Yozi.

On the other hand, if you don't apotheosize, you could start developing charms for different Yozi and modify them, since Yozi are in a very real way defined by their charmset.

The Demented One
2010-05-04, 10:11 AM
I think you underestimate the power of the Green Sun Princes.

They have the ability to learn the charms of multiple Yozis already - why would the Exalt lose that? Mind that, to the best of our knowledge not even the Primordials themselves at the height of their power had the power to destroy an Exalt shard.
It's possible to keep the potential to learn charms of multiple Yozis. It's possible to become a Primordial. It's not possible to do both.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-04, 10:17 AM
Not something you could do. If you become Adorjan, and you complete that transformation, you've become Adorjan, and only Adorjan. Adorjan is not a Green Sun Prince. Adorjan is not Exalted. Adorjan can not learn any charms except Adorjan charms. Adorjan Adorjan Adorjan.

She can learn Charms that are mechanically the same as other Yozis' Charms, but she can't teach them to her Exalted.

The Demented One
2010-05-04, 10:21 AM
She can learn Charms that are mechanically the same as other Yozis' Charms, but she can't teach them to her Exalted.
Yep. But only ones that make sense for her. Malfeas can copy something like Life-Blighting Emptiness Attack, but not Spawning Pit Sanctification.

The Tygre
2010-05-04, 10:22 AM
It's possible to keep the potential to learn charms of multiple Yozis. It's possible to become a Primordial. It's not possible to do both.

So, what does a Green Sun Prince who knows multiple Yozi charms evolve into over time? I always assumed that they evolved into new Third Circle Demons or even Yozi.

tonberrian
2010-05-04, 10:23 AM
She can learn Charms that are mechanically the same as other Yozis' Charms, but she can't teach them to her Exalted.

Only ones that don't build of another Yozi's propietary themes (building off their First Excellency tree, for example).


So, what does a Green Sun Prince who knows multiple Yozi charms evolve into over time? I always assumed that they evolved into new Third Circle Demons or even Yozi.

I have a feeling that the Primordial Apotheosis charm is going to limit you to one version of the First Excellency tree, and that any charms you lose access too will convert back into experience.

Indon
2010-05-04, 10:24 AM
Because, once you become a Primordial, you no longer have a human soul - which is necessary for the exaltation to "stick" to, as it were. Since the exaltation is what allows Infernals to learn the charms of multiple Yozi (most importantly the First Excellency and everything that branches off from that, almost definitely including Yozi Apotheosis charms), you couldn't apotheosize into multiple Yozi.

This is where the battle of wills at the point of apotheosis would come in. Does the Infernal become Adjoran incarnate, or does Adjoran eat the hapless Exalt?

The game's rules (and sometimes setting) become deliberately fuzzy on the edges to give storytellers the opportunity to tell awesome stories.

And a Yozi-eating Infernal is pretty damn awesome.


It's possible to keep the potential to learn charms of multiple Yozis. It's possible to become a Primordial. It's not possible to do both.

Where's the rule that says that?

The Demented One
2010-05-04, 10:26 AM
Where's the rule that says that?
The Charm that makes you a Primordial hasn't been published yet. However, think about it this way. Primordials are one thing. Infernals are a separate, discrete thing. Both have traits specific to them, though some are shared. Can an Infernal become a Primordial, and not give up being an Infernal?

tonberrian
2010-05-04, 10:40 AM
This is where the battle of wills at the point of apotheosis would come in. Does the Infernal become Adjoran incarnate, or does Adjoran eat the hapless Exalt?

No.

The Primordial Apotheosis charm, in a very real way, makes you not human anymore. You don't have a human soul. You have multiple souls like a Primordial, including a fetich soul. The Exaltation is designed to graft onto human souls and only human souls. Once you apotheosize, you no longer have a human soul anymore, so the Exaltation goes back into the world.

Indon
2010-05-04, 10:44 AM
The Charm that makes you a Primordial hasn't been published yet. However, think about it this way. Primordials are one thing. Infernals are a separate, discrete thing. Both have traits specific to them, though some are shared. Can an Infernal become a Primordial, and not give up being an Infernal?

The defining feature of Solars, and by extention Infernals, is that they can do literally anything, including apparently impossible things (like kill the beings that created you and who have incomprehensible power and control over reality).


No.

The Primordial Apotheosis charm, in a very real way, makes you not human anymore. You don't have a human soul. You have multiple souls like a Primordial, including a fetich soul. The Exaltation is designed to graft onto human souls and only human souls. Once you apotheosize, you no longer have a human soul anymore, so the Exaltation goes back into the world.

Wait, is this charm published?

tonberrian
2010-05-04, 10:49 AM
Wait, is this charm published?

No. Anything I've said is speculation. It just seemed easier to talk like that than put IMO in front of everything.

However, think about it this way: you're Sol Invictus, and you want to make sure that your Solar Exaltations kick Primordial butt. Would you design them so that they could graft onto your enemies and let them steal them and use them against you?

The Demented One
2010-05-04, 10:50 AM
The defining feature of Solars, and by extention Infernals, is that they can do literally anything, including apparently impossible things (like kill the beings that created you and who have incomprehensible power and control over reality).
Oh, right. Which is why they have charms to bring back the dead, travel through time, and...oh wait.

pasko77
2010-05-04, 01:05 PM
However, think about it this way: you're Sol Invictus, and you want to make sure that your Solar Exaltations kick Primordial butt. Would you design them so that they could graft onto your enemies and let them steal them and use them against you?

If I don't have alternatives... yes.
I mean, maybe, to be powerful eonugh to beat primordials, MAYBE solars needed to be that cool.

tonberrian
2010-05-04, 01:45 PM
If I don't have alternatives... yes.
I mean, maybe, to be powerful eonugh to beat primordials, MAYBE solars needed to be that cool.

But he did have an alternative - the Alchemicals (specifically, Orichalcum caste). Which leads me to believe that souls of various beings are fundamentally different.

Indon
2010-05-04, 02:13 PM
However, think about it this way: you're Sol Invictus, and you want to make sure that your Solar Exaltations kick Primordial butt. Would you design them so that they could graft onto your enemies and let them steal them and use them against you?

It's implied in the sourcebooks that the Exalts could kill the Incarnae, just as they killed the Primordials - by being that damn ridiculous.

Not to mention that the being that did most of the work to design the Exalts was not the Incarnae, but Autochthon.


Oh, right. Which is why they have charms to bring back the dead, travel through time, and...oh wait.

Time itself in Creation has been broken - not merely traveled through, but broken - twice - once in a battle during the Primordial War, once during the First Age.

Fate manipulation also comes close to time travel at times, and the fate manipulation capabilities available to Sidereals in the Second Age (through the Loom's GUI) are expressly weaker than the raw reality-warping capabilities that the Sidereals once practiced.

I do believe the sourcebooks talk about bringing back the dead as an endgame, story-arc-level goal. Not something trivial, but something doable.

Eating a primordial would be fairly similar. It's not something done lightly, but there's no reason to think it's not doable.

Talkkno
2010-05-04, 02:30 PM
I don't know why you want to a primordial anyways. PPE from glories is basically a downgrade from Solar power in a lot of ways.

The Tygre
2010-05-04, 03:51 PM
Ah ha! Found it! The very subject I was looking for! Infernals: Something Else (http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/Thus_Spake_Zaranephilpal/InfernalEvolution)

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-04, 04:33 PM
Of course the Exalted can kill the Incarnae. The Incarnae are just Gods. Exalted can kill Primordials, why would a bunch of Essence 10 gods give them any trouble?

Gods are wimps.

The Demented One
2010-05-04, 04:49 PM
Time itself in Creation has been broken - not merely traveled through, but broken - twice - once in a battle during the Primordial War, once during the First Age.
Breaking the flow of linear time is not time travel. Similar, but distinct.


Fate manipulation also comes close to time travel at times, and the fate manipulation capabilities available to Sidereals in the Second Age (through the Loom's GUI) are expressly weaker than the raw reality-warping capabilities that the Sidereals once practiced.
I know every single fate-manipulating effect in the game. No it doesn't.


I do believe the sourcebooks talk about bringing back the dead as an endgame, story-arc-level goal. Not something trivial, but something doable.
I'd be surprised if that's the case, but I suppose it might be there.


Eating a primordial would be fairly similar. It's not something done lightly, but there's no reason to think it's not doable.
Noming a primordial, doable. Noming a primordial, while being yourself a primordial, not possible (unless part of your primordial thesis is "I eat you, and thus become you"). Learning other primordial's charms is something you sacrifice to become a primordial, and circumventing your sacrifices should more or less never be doable.

Talkkno
2010-05-04, 07:38 PM
Of course the Exalted can kill the Incarnae. The Incarnae are just Gods. Exalted can kill Primordials, why would a bunch of Essence 10 gods give them any trouble?

Gods are wimps.

Good luck killing the Unconquered Sun without suppressing his Temperence. :smalltongue:

Draxar
2010-05-04, 08:36 PM
The White Treatise says that spells cannot see into the future or be used for time travel, and that "Nothing can truly return the dead to life." The most powerful thing for approaching such is Barred Tomb, which brings you back for an hour, and is the utmost limits of Necromancy's power over such. And if necromancy can't do more, nothing else will be able to beat it.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-04, 08:41 PM
Of course, if you don't mind about that pesky 'having the same soul' thing, you can use flash-clones with imprinted memories.

Aaah, First Age tech.

hangedman1984
2010-05-04, 09:12 PM
Of course, if you don't mind about that pesky 'having the same soul' thing, you can use flash-clones with imprinted memories.

Aaah, First Age tech.


and seeing how souls don't seem to carry the personality or the quintessential you-ness of an individual in exalted, seems like that would amount to pretty much the same thing as resurrection.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-04, 09:30 PM
Except the upper soul does in fact carry the personality and you-ness.

What the heck do you think ghosts are?

hangedman1984
2010-05-04, 09:41 PM
Except the upper soul does in fact carry the personality and you-ness.

What the heck do you think ghosts are?

Not after the soul goes through lethe, all that gets scrubbed away

The Tygre
2010-05-04, 10:13 PM
Not after the soul goes through lethe, all that gets scrubbed away

Which is why they're ghosts. Aside from that, I always figured that the surface soul imprinted on the core soul. It wasn't obvious, but the echoes and ripples will rise up from time to time.

hangedman1984
2010-05-04, 10:28 PM
Which is why they're ghosts. Aside from that, I always figured that the surface soul imprinted on the core soul. It wasn't obvious, but the echoes and ripples will rise up from time to time.

the impression I always got from the source material was that once a soul has passed through lethe it becomes a clean slate

The Tygre
2010-05-04, 10:33 PM
the impression I always got from the source material was that once a soul has passed through lethe it becomes a clean slate

Maybe. I'm just trying to reach for an explanation of memories of past lives, intimacies, throwbacks, etc.

hangedman1984
2010-05-04, 10:33 PM
typically bits left attached to the exaltation by lytek

Talkkno
2010-05-04, 11:14 PM
typically bits left attached to the exaltation by lytek

Err don't you mean that he scrubs most of them?

hangedman1984
2010-05-05, 12:20 AM
Err don't you mean that he scrubs most of them?

I think prune is a more fitting word, like a bonsai tree of PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER!!

Draxar
2010-05-05, 03:57 AM
and seeing how souls don't seem to carry the personality or the quintessential you-ness of an individual in exalted, seems like that would amount to pretty much the same thing as resurrection.

Except for losing your exaltation, if you have one.

nolispe
2010-05-05, 04:04 AM
Good luck killing the Unconquered Sun without suppressing his Temperence. :smalltongue:
Why? What does his temperance do?

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-05, 05:06 AM
typically bits left attached to the exaltation by lytek

Mortals can remember past lives too.

Draxar
2010-05-05, 06:39 AM
Why? What does his temperance do?

In Glories Of The Most High: Unconquered Sun, the book that (amongst other description of him and some Solar charms) has the stats for the Unconquered Sun.

Beyond his awesome attributes and abilities, and various other superpowers, his core Unconquer-ableness comes from 4 abilities that relate to his virtues.

– His Conviction makes him always succeed at rolls, regardless of the difficulty, as well as letting him command the Yozi and the Greater Elemental Dragons.

– His Temperance lets him perfectly resist all damage, and not be slain or negatively affected/changed by any effect.

– His Valour lets him deal infinite damage with his spear, lets it do lots of damage to a huge area, and gives it infinite range to targets he can perceive.

– His Compassion lets him percieve anywhere in Creation illuminated by any sunlight, and lets him see the truth of things (perceiving lies, illusions and similar). It also lets him heal himself (and others) of pretty much any negative ongoing effect, or damage.

They also do other stuff, but that's the main important virtue-tied effects.

With all those up, pretty much no-one can hurt him. However, as those powers are based on virtues, he has super-virtues. He automatically succeeds with lots of successes on virtue rolls, and there are more things that trigger a virtue roll from him, for instance: Compassion – killing except in the defence of another, Conviction – Admitting the possibility of personal error or fallibility, Temperance – any dishonesty, even in trivial matters, Valour – overlooking any challenge or disrespect to his authoirty.

Which means that if he sees anything that would trigger him to act on his virtues (little old lady being beaten up, f'r instance), he needs to either get involved, or supress the virtue. If he suppresses the virtue, the powers based on that virtue stop working.

If you make him supress his Temperance, you can actually kill him, though it won't be evil. If you don't, you pretty much can't.

Indon
2010-05-05, 10:04 AM
I don't know why you want to a primordial anyways. PPE from glories is basically a downgrade from Solar power in a lot of ways.

Being a primordial alone, sure. But being a Solar-level Exalt with the powers of a Primordial? Not necessarily a downgrade.


Breaking the flow of linear time is not time travel. Similar, but distinct.
It's implied in the First Age books that use of time travel was involved in and/or responsible for the first breaking of time during the Primordial War.

In fact, that might be an intersting plot hook - the idea that time travel is nearly impossible precisely because Creation now self-corrects for time-travel-created paradoxes, which would be most difficult to avoid, and generally does so by retconning the effectiveness of the time traveling in the first place (so, for instance, all rolls to operate a time-traveling artifact would automatically botch).


I know every single fate-manipulating effect in the game. No it doesn't.
Well, the pre-loom fate manipulation effects largely aren't in any books, at least to my knowledge.


Noming a primordial, doable. Noming a primordial, while being yourself a primordial, not possible (unless part of your primordial thesis is "I eat you, and thus become you"). Learning other primordial's charms is something you sacrifice to become a primordial, and circumventing your sacrifices should more or less never be doable.

Well, I was thinking more that, at the point of apotheosis, the Exalt and Primordial are in a position to nom the other - the result is a struggle for which being dictates the fundamental identity of the resulting amalgamation. If the Primordial wins, then it might become a bit more powerful but it remains fundamentally a Primordial. If the Exalt wins, then said Exalt becomes some ridiculous Primordial-Exalt hybrid or something like that, co-opting part of the Primordial's nature but becoming something fundamentally different.

You could also take it a step further and allow an entire circle of Infernals to try doing so, by each initiating the Apotheosis simultaneously and trying to devour a different aspect of their Yozi. It would be a fascinating long-term plot in an Infernals game, I'd think.

hangedman1984
2010-05-05, 11:32 AM
Except for losing your exaltation, if you have one.

not everyone in creation is exalted though.


Mortals can remember past lives too.

not that i'm saying you're wrong, but can i get a reference?

Primal Fury
2010-05-05, 11:44 AM
Well, I was thinking more that, at the point of apotheosis, the Exalt and Primordial are in a position to nom the other - the result is a struggle for which being dictates the fundamental identity of the resulting amalgamation. If the Primordial wins, then it might become a bit more powerful but it remains fundamentally a Primordial. If the Exalt wins, then said Exalt becomes some ridiculous Primordial-Exalt hybrid or something like that, co-opting part of the Primordial's nature but becoming something fundamentally different.

But there's no such thing as a "Half-Primordial", with the possible exception of the actual children of Primordials (but we still don't know exactly how that works yet). You either are one or you aren't, there is no in between.

And Infernals already do that last part without eating the Yozi. They take part of each Yozi that benefits them, but they're on their way to becoming something more. Something better.

Indon
2010-05-05, 11:49 AM
But there's no such thing as a "Half-Primordial", with the possible exception of the actual children of Primordials (but we still don't know exactly how that works yet). You either are one or you aren't, there is no in between.

And Infernals already do that last part without eating the Yozi. They take part of each Yozi that benefits them, but they're on their way to becoming something more. Something better.

There was never such a thing as a dead Primordial either, before the Exalts got to work.

And yes, I'm specifically talking about a hypothetical completion of this process in a dramatically interesting way. It's not dramatically interesting to rule that the Primordial just eats the Exalt, game over, which makes it, I feel, a poor approach to an Exalted mechanic.

Primal Fury
2010-05-05, 11:57 AM
There was never such a thing as a dead Primordial either, before the Exalts got to work.
Well good luck with that. :vaarsuvius:


And yes, I'm specifically talking about a hypothetical completion of this process in a dramatically interesting way. It's not dramatically interesting to rule that the Primordial just eats the Exalt, game over, which makes it, I feel, a poor approach to an Exalted mechanic.

Well it's kinda... bleh... that way. The Infernals shouldn't need their Yozi "masters" to complete their metamorphosis. The fun part of being an Infernal is the ability to give the Yozi the finger, leave Hell, and never return. Well... maybe you'll come back after you've forged your own Creation. But that would be only to fix them, or kill them. Saying "Yay! You're free now! But you sorta have to go back. You need their power." doesn't sound fun at all.

But to each their own I guess.

Indon
2010-05-05, 12:18 PM
Well it's kinda... bleh... that way. The Infernals shouldn't need their Yozi "masters" to complete their metamorphosis. The fun part of being an Infernal is the ability to give the Yozi the finger, leave Hell, and never return. Well... maybe you'll come back after you've forged your own Creation. But that would be only to fix them, or kill them. Saying "Yay! You're free now! But you sorta have to go back. You need their power." doesn't sound fun at all.

But to each their own I guess.

I'm a firm believer in making options available to players and then leaving them open. Sure, they can go make a new Creation or heal the broken Yozis or any number of things - devouring one or more Primordials is only an option, and in fact one that works just as well with an antagonist as a protagonist.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-05, 12:23 PM
not everyone in creation is exalted though.



not that i'm saying you're wrong, but can i get a reference?

It's probably a charm in supplementary material for heroic mortals - Past Lives Remembrance Technique or something.

(Personally, I'd call it Digital Camera Memory Card Review Technique myself.)

Tome
2010-05-05, 12:49 PM
not that i'm saying you're wrong, but can i get a reference?

Scroll of Heroes, p. 60-61. Past Lives Merit, can be taken by Mortals and Dragon-Blooded, though only up to the 2-point level.

That along the lines of what you were after? :smallwink:

The Demented One
2010-05-05, 01:43 PM
It's implied in the First Age books that use of time travel was involved in and/or responsible for the first breaking of time during the Primordial War.
Most writers take care to mention that it's only temporal disruption, never time travel. Except for the stupid bit in Compass: Malfeas, but the less said about that, the better.


Well, the pre-loom fate manipulation effects largely aren't in any books, at least to my knowledge.
Check Glories of the Most High. Astrological Charms. Freakin' awesome, universe-wrecking mojo.


Well, I was thinking more that, at the point of apotheosis, the Exalt and Primordial are in a position to nom the other - the result is a struggle for which being dictates the fundamental identity of the resulting amalgamation. If the Primordial wins, then it might become a bit more powerful but it remains fundamentally a Primordial. If the Exalt wins, then said Exalt becomes some ridiculous Primordial-Exalt hybrid or something like that, co-opting part of the Primordial's nature but becoming something fundamentally different.
Doable. Just not doable in addition to Primordial Apotheosis. It's a valid transcendence route, but you can't lump it in with another transcendence.

Indon
2010-05-06, 08:23 AM
Most writers take care to mention that it's only temporal disruption, never time travel. Except for the stupid bit in Compass: Malfeas, but the less said about that, the better.
While it's certainly true that White Wolf editing isn't perfect, that doesn't mean that anything is impossible in the setting.


Check Glories of the Most High. Astrological Charms. Freakin' awesome, universe-wrecking mojo.
Oh? Interesting.


Doable. Just not doable in addition to Primordial Apotheosis. It's a valid transcendence route, but you can't lump it in with another transcendence.

It would be one possible adjudication route for said apotheosis, which doesn't actually exist in game and thus would need to be defined.

And, I might add, it's among the most well-developed possible methods in the thread about describing methods for it.

The Demented One
2010-05-06, 09:50 AM
While it's certainly true that White Wolf editing isn't perfect, that doesn't mean that anything is impossible in the setting.
Hmm. Okay. The one way you could actually have time travel in Exalted without killing the themes of the game is if you can't get around the consequences of your actions with it. The moment you can just nip back in time and fix your mistakes, it's become toxic. I guess a limited, narrow effect that doesn't allow that would work.


It would be one possible adjudication route for said apotheosis, which doesn't actually exist in game and thus would need to be defined.

And, I might add, it's among the most well-developed possible methods in the thread about describing methods for it.
We already know how it happens. Primordials are made of charms. You become a Primordial by taking the charms that define them as a Primordial.

Indon
2010-05-06, 10:32 AM
Hmm. Okay. The one way you could actually have time travel in Exalted without killing the themes of the game is if you can't get around the consequences of your actions with it. The moment you can just nip back in time and fix your mistakes, it's become toxic. I guess a limited, narrow effect that doesn't allow that would work.
Well, yeah, I'd consider significant time travel to be a campaign-ending development, something the players do before living Happily Ever After, which means it'd either need to be extremely limited or else it has to be the end-goal of the players.


We already know how it happens. Primordials are made of charms. You become a Primordial by taking the charms that define them as a Primordial.

There's massive grey area in there, though. What happens, for instance, to any non-Infernal charms an Infernal may know? Does that affect the transformation or the result?

How does the Exaltation itself interact with the process? After all, Infernals who know a bunch of charms aren't exactly growing extra demon-souls along the way.

Does the Exalt merge into an existing Primordial in some way, or become an entirely new Primordial, or does it depend on the charms they've learned?

There's a lot of questions that make it nowhere near as cut and dry as you seem to be implying.

The Demented One
2010-05-06, 10:40 AM
What happens, for instance, to any non-Infernal charms an Infernal may know?
Can a Primordial know any charms other than his own Primordial charms?


How does the Exaltation itself interact with the process?
Can a Primordial be Exalted?


Does the Exalt merge into an existing Primordial in some way, or become an entirely new Primordial, or does it depend on the charms they've learned?
How could this be done without negatively impacting a character's ability to be a protagonist?


There's a lot of questions that make it nowhere near as cut and dry as you seem to be implying.
Well of course! We've not seen the charms yet. I have no doubt, though, that we will.

BobVosh
2010-05-06, 10:56 AM
*snip about UCS stuff*

Thats...actually really cool. I normally am against statting things like incarnae, deathlords, what have you. However that is neat.


A side note: where are the princes of the green sun detailed? I only played the first ed (mostly) and they kinda mentioned they were there, probably doing something nefarious, but nothing beyond that. (At least in what I found)

Also I really want to make a character who has an overarching goal of eating, or at least sampling, every primordial.


How could this be done without negatively impacting a character's ability to be a protagonist?

Woah a question I can actually answer. Easily. 1) He merges and becomes an independent fracture that can go forth and do whatever. Mildly subservient but can of course gain equal or better standing if he does...insert plot.
2) Highlander style plot. There can only be one.
3) You are a new kind of primordial, or at least a different one. Admittedly it would be hard to get a plot for this power level.

Of course once you get to this point you could join the yahtzee game games of divinity in Yu-Shan. Therefore effectively retire your character as you really probably did everything that you can before requiring your character to recreate all of creation or something.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-06, 11:08 AM
Green Sun Princes are, appropriately, in Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals.

The Demented One
2010-05-06, 12:48 PM
Woah a question I can actually answer. Easily. 1) He merges and becomes an independent fracture that can go forth and do whatever. Mildly subservient but can of course gain equal or better standing if he does...insert plot.
If you become a Primordial–in the sense of, becoming the Ebon Dragon–then you are them, in every detail. Why would you be subservient?


3) You are a new kind of primordial, or at least a different one. Admittedly it would be hard to get a plot for this power level.
Two different things. "I become so-and-so Yozi" is one path. "I become an entirely new Primordial" is another.

Indon
2010-05-06, 12:53 PM
Can a Primordial know any charms other than his own Primordial charms?
Wouldn't all a Primordial's charms be their Primordial charms?


Can a Primordial be Exalted?
Well, Exalts can be Primordials.


How could this be done without negatively impacting a character's ability to be a protagonist?
Multiple ways, which is why it's awesome.


Well of course! We've not seen the charms yet. I have no doubt, though, that we will.

We totally don't need White Wolf to publish every little thing to make an awesome Exalted game. We're not playing D&D here.

The Demented One
2010-05-06, 01:12 PM
Wouldn't all a Primordial's charms be their Primordial charms?
Do you think Malfeas can use any charms that aren't Malfeas Charms?


Well, Exalts can be Primordials.
Can they? All Exalted must be human, remember. Lose humanity, lose exaltation.


Multiple ways, which is why it's awesome.
Nod. Brainstorm. Start thinking of ways.


We totally don't need White Wolf to publish every little thing to make an awesome Exalted game. We're not playing D&D here.
I'll put it this way. I'm pretty sure Neph can write a cooler and better Yozi Apotheosis charm cascade than...well, pretty much anyone.

Agrippa
2010-05-06, 01:40 PM
We totally don't need White Wolf to publish every little thing to make an awesome Exalted game. We're not playing D&D here.

Hell, I don't even think D&D players really need WotC to publish every little thing for them either.

Kyeudo
2010-05-06, 01:53 PM
Do you think Malfeas can use any charms that aren't Malfeas Charms?


Yes. It is noted in MoEP:Infernals that the Primordials can (and have) learned each others' Charms. They just can't create new Charms and they can't teach Charms that are not their own. All of the Primordials know Unquestionable Yozi Authority (it's the way that the Great Geas works).

The Demented One
2010-05-06, 02:30 PM
Yes. It is noted in MoEP:Infernals that the Primordials can (and have) learned each others' Charms. They just can't create new Charms and they can't teach Charms that are not their own. All of the Primordials know Unquestionable Yozi Authority (it's the way that the Great Geas works).
Malfeas doesn't know Unquestionable Yozi Authority as a Cecelyne Charm, though. He's adapted it as a Malfeas Charm.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-06, 02:37 PM
Malfeas doesn't know Unquestionable Yozi Authority as a Cecelyne Charm, though. He's adapted it as a Malfeas Charm.

If he knew it as a Malfean Charm, his akuma could learn it too, since they can learn Malfean Charms. Since his akuma can't learn Unquestionable Yozi Authority, it's not a Malfean Charm.

The Tygre
2010-05-06, 05:02 PM
Can they? All Exalted must be human, remember. Lose humanity, lose exaltation.


I have to disagree on this one. True, Solars, Silver Pact Lunars, Terrestrials, and Sidereals have to stay human, but this is what defines the second generation Exalts from the first in my eyes. No matter how much Essence a First Gen. gains, at heart they'll still be humans. Humans that can punch through the abstract concept of existence or rework their genetic structure for the past millenia, but at heart, still just humans with incredible powers.

The Second Generation of Exalts are different. As posited in the essay I dug up, they become Something Else with the gain of Essence. Over time, Infernals, Abyssals, and Alchemicals evolve. I suppose you could say they're 'evolutionaries', though Alchemicals are in truth older than the Solars, but I digress. The more and more Essence a Second Gen. gets, the more it changes. An Infernal has the potential of not only equaling a Yozi in power, but surpassing it if only that it equals something like Malfeas, but it has the flexible mind, free will, and thoughts of a Creation-born. The same goes for an Abyssal; sooner or later, there will come a time when an Abyssal doesn't need to suckle energy from a Deathlord and can go straight to being one themselves. And then what? How soon before they become ready for Oblivion itself, before they -become- Oblivion incarnate? And what about Alchemicals? What if one decides to find a way to transcend becoming rooted as a giant city, but stays mobile, keeps growing, or, like a Yozi or Unshaped Raksha, starts making avatars of itself, with all the power but none of the bulk. Of course, the exception to these rules are the Casteless Lunars. Imagine if one could find a way to escape insanity? They could just keep evolving... forever. Until one day they're the perfect life-form, stronger than Luna or Sol or a Primordial.

*sigh* Alas, this is all just theory. I'm sure there's some bit of storyline I've missed or looked over or conveniently 'forgotten' that makes sure an Exalt can't run past Essence 10 without their eyes exploding. My dreams of an even more bone-crushingly epic Exalted will have to carry themselves over into whatever I can scrounge from UpperKrust and the Immortal's Handbook.

The Demented One
2010-05-06, 05:07 PM
The Second Generation of Exalts are different. As posited in the essay I dug up, they become Something Else with the gain of Essence. Over time, Infernals, Abyssals, and Alchemicals evolve. I suppose you could say they're 'evolutionaries', though Alchemicals are in truth older than the Solars, but I digress. The more and more Essence a Second Gen. gets, the more it changes. An Infernal has the potential of not only equaling a Yozi in power, but surpassing it if only that it equals something like Malfeas, but it has the flexible mind, free will, and thoughts of a Creation-born. The same goes for an Abyssal; sooner or later, there will come a time when an Abyssal doesn't need to suckle energy from a Deathlord and can go straight to being one themselves. And then what? How soon before they become ready for Oblivion itself, before they -become- Oblivion incarnate? And what about Alchemicals? What if one decides to find a way to transcend becoming rooted as a giant city, but stays mobile, keeps growing, or, like a Yozi or Unshaped Raksha, starts making avatars of itself, with all the power but none of the bulk. Of course, the exception to these rules are the Casteless Lunars. Imagine if one could find a way to escape insanity? They could just keep evolving... forever. Until one day they're the perfect life-form, stronger than Luna or Sol or a Primordial.

*sigh* Alas, this is all just theory. I'm sure there's some bit of storyline I've missed or looked over or conveniently 'forgotten' that makes sure an Exalt can't run past Essence 10 without their eyes exploding. My dreams of an even more bone-crushingly epic Exalted will have to carry themselves over into whatever I can scrounge from UpperKrust and the Immortal's Handbook.
"Human" in Exalted is a technical term, and what it means is "has a human soul." An Alchemical who's evolved into a giant robot city? Still human, his body's just been built into this vast technomantic city. An Abyssal death-thing? Well. Maybe, they might cross the humanity barrier. Not a clear enough idea of what happens there.

But Infernals? At a certain point, they become a Primordial. Not just like a Primordial, not just an Exalt with Primordial Charms, but an actual, holistic Primordial. And at that point, they are no longer human. Their Exaltation would fly away, stripped from their soul, but it doesn't matter. They don't need it anymore.

The Tygre
2010-05-06, 05:15 PM
The question is, though, do they still have a human mind? Do they still have feelings and free-will and the capacity to experience and think in little ways that we do everyday, but not even something like the Ebon Dragon or She Who Lives in Her Name could hope to imagine (if they can imagine anything at all)?

Tavar
2010-05-06, 05:48 PM
I think if they actually become Primordials, then as part of that process they loose the Human side. I mean, I think the two really seem exclusive. I mean, there are two author quotes on that site that go into the nature of primordials, and both go on about how they're, by there very nature, retarded. The given example is Malfeas, who literally cannot consider someone else's view as valid without severe mental pain.

The Tygre
2010-05-06, 06:14 PM
I think if they actually become Primordials, then as part of that process they loose the Human side. I mean, I think the two really seem exclusive. I mean, there are two author quotes on that site that go into the nature of primordials, and both go on about how they're, by there very nature, retarded. The given example is Malfeas, who literally cannot consider someone else's view as valid without severe mental pain.

Ah, but that's what gives a transcended Green Sun Prince his power. Malfeas has to hurt himself to even begin thinking about subtlety, and even then it probably comes out as a series of destruction metaphors;

"I will... DESTROY truth by... KILLING honesty in this situation... by RIPPING NOISE APART... and my GLORIOUS... deception... will CONQUER THEIR FEEBLE MINDS... which will then BURN IN MY SPLENDOR!"

You and I can think it very easily;

"I'll lie by saying nothing. It's for the best."

The point is, a mortal mind is flexible, ingenious. We can be destroyers or plotters, either planning or acting as we see fit. Our minds can grow in whatever direction we want. We're not locked into one set of thinking or actions. In short, we're not programmed for one specific kind of spectrum of thoughts by our own existence. Just think of what a Yozi or a Primordial could do if it could think like a Creation-born! If nothing else, a Green Sun Prince Ascended (or Descended) is greater in how far he's come. A Green Sun Prince started out like you and me, with a mother, a father, a pulse, a body, a soul, feelings and dreams. A Primordial was just born, just *pop* into existence one day. The Ebon Dragon had being the god of Ass-holes handed to him. His Green Sun Prince -worked- for it.

Heh. Writing Malfeas is kind of fun. It's kind of like writing a Satanic Brian Blessed.

Tavar
2010-05-06, 06:43 PM
Right, but I think that being a primordial limits you to the primordial mindset. Sure, their component souls can, but that's what makes them less than an embodiment of a cosmic principle.

The Demented One
2010-05-06, 06:51 PM
The question is, though, do they still have a human mind? Do they still have feelings and free-will and the capacity to experience and think in little ways that we do everyday, but not even something like the Ebon Dragon or She Who Lives in Her Name could hope to imagine (if they can imagine anything at all)?
They can keep that. At a certain point, I imagine, they have to decide whether or not they're willing to throw that away in exchange for power. If you become a Primordial, you are them. No more, and no less.

The Tygre
2010-05-06, 09:50 PM
They can keep that. At a certain point, I imagine, they have to decide whether or not they're willing to throw that away in exchange for power. If you become a Primordial, you are them. No more, and no less.

Is there no way beyond that? No way to become as powerful if not more powerful than a Primordial without actually becoming one completely?

The_Snark
2010-05-06, 10:08 PM
Is there no way beyond that? No way to become as powerful if not more powerful than a Primordial without actually becoming one completely?

One of the recurring themes in Exalted is that you can do anything, but there's always going to be consequences.

So while there's nothing close to official on this, my gut reaction is to say no. If you want to transcend humanity by splitting your soul into several pieces and becoming a titan composed of concepts and themes rather than flesh or other physical objects, then you're not going to be human at the end of it. It's like with sorcery (which is a Primordial-related concept): you have to lose something in order to gain more. Whether the sacrifice is worth it depends on the character in question.

That isn't to say that there can't be other ways to become awesomely powerful, and some of them might allow you to remain relatively human*. But this isn't it. If you become a Primordial, you have to actually be a Primordial, not just a human in a Primordial suit. That's not necessarily bad; look at Gaia and Autochthon, who—while sometimes frighteningly inhuman—resemble humanity in some aspects. But it is different.

*I'd argue that it isn't really possible to achieve that kind of transcendent power and stay human in the long run—even elder Solars tend to become a little alien after living for a long time, and that isn't just the Great Curse at work. Any human who lives hundreds of years longer than he was meant to, free from ordinary human frailties, is going to be a little different from a mortal. But that's neither here nor there.

The Tygre
2010-05-06, 11:10 PM
But here's the thing; what if you don't want to be a Primordial? How far can an Infernal go if they have absolutely no desire at Primordial-hood? Because have you looked at Primordials? Have you looked at Creation? Have you seen all the crap that's gone wrong because they were all so stupid and locked into singular concepts they couldn't bother to fix it or foresee it going wrong? Something here is intrinsically wrong; something here has to be changed, if even the slightest bit. All I'm asking for is an edge, just a tiny crack in the glass ceiling of power. If an Infernal can become a Primordial, any Primordial, Yozi, Neverborn, Unshaped, whatever, and still retain even the slightest tiniest bit of humanity, even the smallest flexibility in reasoning and emotion, just one infinitesimally small trace of being a Creation Born, then that's a win in my book. To me, that's what Exalted is about; think of the single biggest number you can, and add one. Never stop moving upward. Never give up. Go where no one, no thing has ever gone before. And if you wind up even an inch further, one inch, then you can die in peace.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-06, 11:14 PM
By the way, is there a source that says you can turn into a Primordial to begin with? I kind of assumed you had to be "born" that way.

The Tygre
2010-05-06, 11:26 PM
By the way, is there a source that says you can turn into a Primordial to begin with? I kind of assumed you had to be "born" that way.

THANK YOU! YES! YES! Rose, get over here. Get over here so I can hug you. You're getting a hug, mister.

Primal Fury
2010-05-06, 11:29 PM
By the way, is there a source that says you can turn into a Primordial to begin with? I kind of assumed you had to be "born" that way.

That's what Infernals do. If you learn all of a single Yozi or Primordial's charms, including the "I Am (Yozi/Primordial)" charm, you become them in every conceivable way.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-06, 11:31 PM
Hey, I'm OK if there is a source. I just think this is all speculation until one of the developers says "yes, you can become a Primordial being born mortal, and here's how".


That's what Infernals do. If you learn all of a single Yozi or Primordial's charms, including the "I Am (Yozi/Primordial)" charm, you become them in every conceivable way.

Did a developer state that there is such a Charm?

Primal Fury
2010-05-06, 11:37 PM
Developers? Not as such, no. But it was said by the writers who do the Yozi charm cascades.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-06, 11:43 PM
The writers are known to have no idea what the others are doing, however. Or ignore canon completely. I blame the lack of editors.

Primal Fury
2010-05-06, 11:54 PM
Well then I guess there's nothin' left for me to say.

Leliel
2010-05-07, 12:03 AM
The writers are known to have no idea what the others are doing, however. Or ignore canon completely. I blame the lack of editors.

The writer who did this also did the a lot of the work on Infernals.

Even if it wasn't in the book itself, he outright stated in an Ink Monkeys Charm that the particular Charm prevents Primordial apotheosis. Ink Monkeys is pretty much all the freelancers getting together to do web upgrades to Exalted.

It may not be what you're looking for, but it's close.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-07, 12:03 AM
Let me elaborate. I like White Wolf. I like their games. I am not a big fan of their advertisement policies, but it does not bug me so much that I can't ignore it. However, they have a lot of faults. For example, most of their writers are freelancers, because they don't have enough money to hire full-time company writers. They have a total of one editor for all the Exalted books, who is doing a pretty poor job of actually editing the things. Something stated in one book might be radically altered in another, presumably because the writers do not correspond well when writing the books (see the entirety of the Immaculate Order section in the Blessed Isle book, for example). Or someone might ignore canon entirely, coming up with things like Terrestrial Half-Castes, even though they are not mentioned elsewhere, while another book will state outright there are no Terrestrial Half-Castes.

Preferably, in a setting, there should be one single developer, or a small group of developers that correspond almost all the time, with whom the writers correspond with when they write the book, who should also correspond with each other, and an editor who should do his job well while corresponding with everyone else. Exalted lacks this correspondence. White Wolf in general lacks this correspondence. In a single line of books, there are about ten or twenty people who each have their own ideas how things should work and an editor who can't really read their or the developers' minds. The end result is something like a Vote for a [insert gaming concept here] project with no project leader.

White Wolf is a good company, as far as I'm concerned, but they look like they are hardly concerned with things like setting coherency, consistency or game balance if you only read their books and not frequent their forums, and this is not an inconsiderable problem where I stand.

Kyeudo
2010-05-07, 12:20 AM
That's what Infernals do. If you learn all of a single Yozi or Primordial's charms, including the "I Am (Yozi/Primordial)" charm, you become them in every conceivable way.

No. You become more than them.

A Green Sun Prince is greater than a Yozi. Perhaps less than a full Primordial (as the Yozis have had the power to truly create anew ripped out of them), but definately more than a Yozi.

Malfeas cannot concieve of being subtle. A Slayer who has mastered every one of Malfeas's Charms may not be inclined to be subtle, but he can do it.

The Ebon Dragon is incapable of helping someone who stands to gain more than the Shadow of All Things. A Fiend who has learned all of the Ebon Dragon's Charms can help people out of the goodness of his own heart if he so chooses.

This "GSP become new Yozis" apothesis thing isn't supported anywhere in canon and I find it kind of ridiculous. Why would you want to descend to the level of a crippled-proto-god-thing when a Green Sun Prince is so much better than that? Malfeas is shackled to what he is. He can't be more than the dethroned king, maimed and out for blood. He can't even become a better dethroned king. An Infernal can forge new Charms to augment or evolve what already exists there; that alone makes them better, and that is amoung the least of their abilities.

The Tygre
2010-05-07, 12:44 AM
No. You become more than them.

A Green Sun Prince is greater than a Yozi. Perhaps less than a full Primordial (as the Yozis have had the power to truly create anew ripped out of them), but definately more than a Yozi.

Malfeas cannot concieve of being subtle. A Slayer who has mastered every one of Malfeas's Charms may not be inclined to be subtle, but he can do it.

The Ebon Dragon is incapable of helping someone who stands to gain more than the Shadow of All Things. A Fiend who has learned all of the Ebon Dragon's Charms can help people out of the goodness of his own heart if he so chooses.

This "GSP become new Yozis" apothesis thing isn't supported anywhere in canon and I find it kind of ridiculous. Why would you want to descend to the level of a crippled-proto-god-thing when a Green Sun Prince is so much better than that? Malfeas is shackled to what he is. He can't be more than the dethroned king, maimed and out for blood. He can't even become a better dethroned king. An Infernal can forge new Charms to augment or evolve what already exists there; that alone makes them better, and that is amoung the least of their abilities.

All right, Rose, out of the way. Kyeudo, get ready for a Green Nimbus Hug. You got it all perfectly. I mean, why would you want to be an Infernal if your ultimate destiny is to become either:

A.) The servant of a failed proto-god
or
B.) A failed proto-god.

More importantly, an Infernal isn't bound to one set of charms. It's a given fact that Yozi learn whatever Charms their Princes develop. But a Prince who combines Charms, who learns from different Yozi, can be something completely different from their patron, maybe even greater than the sum of their parts. At the very least, a completely new Yozi should be born, outside of Hell for that matter.

Talkkno
2010-05-07, 12:52 AM
Wouldn't they become a Primordial and not a Yozi, as they are not bound by the oaths that the Yozi are bound into.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-07, 12:59 AM
I mean, why would you want to be an Infernal if your ultimate destiny is to become either:

A.) The servant of a failed proto-god
or
B.) A failed proto-god.

Because you don't know that is your ultimate destiny?

Infernal Exaltation is always a voluntary choice, but it never done with full knowledge of the results. All you know is that you have failed greatly and are offered great power so you can never fail again. If you're lucky, you also know it is a demon that is making the offer. It is highly likely you know nothing of Yozis, let alone their true nature as castrated Primordials.

I'm not arguing that you will eventually turn into a Yozi, but you agree to the Infernal Exaltation without knowing what your ultimate destiny is. If it turns out to be something horrible, you deserve whatever you get for throwing in your lot with the demons.

Of course, this is all from an IC perspective. From an OOC perspective, your ultimate destiny should preferably be something, well, preferable, to make Infernals acceptable choices as PCs.

The Tygre
2010-05-07, 01:20 AM
Let me clarify; speaking out of the game, meta, as a player, etcetra etc.



Of course, this is all from an IC perspective. From an OOC perspective, your ultimate destiny should preferably be something, well, preferable, to make Infernals acceptable choices as PCs.

Like that, which I just noticed, yes.

Kyeudo
2010-05-07, 01:39 AM
Wouldn't they become a Primordial and not a Yozi, as they are not bound by the oaths that the Yozi are bound into.

Not quite. The oaths are not why the Yozis are not Primordials. The Primordials could create new concepts entirely. The Yozis cannot. They have been maimed by the Exalted and the Incarnae so that they could not create a new way out of their oaths and that maiming is what makes them Yozis, not the oaths.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-07, 02:58 AM
I think this is a weird feature of Exalted: two people can hardly agree on what to expect from it and how the setting works.

Whether it is a good thing or a bad one, I can't say.

The_Snark
2010-05-07, 06:03 AM
Re whether Infernal transcendence is possible/supported in the books: I'm not really concerned with whether any of this is canon. I don't recall where I first came on the idea that Infernals can catalyze into a sort of Primordial/Yozi-esque being, but I happen to think it's a cool idea.

There are no definite rules or description telling us how it would happen, so this thread is asking us to and say what we think would be a cool way to do it. So why not wildly speculate?


But here's the thing; what if you don't want to be a Primordial? How far can an Infernal go if they have absolutely no desire at Primordial-hood? Because have you looked at Primordials? Have you looked at Creation? Have you seen all the crap that's gone wrong because they were all so stupid and locked into singular concepts they couldn't bother to fix it or foresee it going wrong? Something here is intrinsically wrong; something here has to be changed, if even the slightest bit. All I'm asking for is an edge, just a tiny crack in the glass ceiling of power. If an Infernal can become a Primordial, any Primordial, Yozi, Neverborn, Unshaped, whatever, and still retain even the slightest tiniest bit of humanity, even the smallest flexibility in reasoning and emotion, just one infinitesimally small trace of being a Creation Born, then that's a win in my book. To me, that's what Exalted is about; think of the single biggest number you can, and add one. Never stop moving upward. Never give up. Go where no one, no thing has ever gone before. And if you wind up even an inch further, one inch, then you can die in peace.

I have two responses to this! They're kinda contradictory, but both true anyway. (Aside: I think this is why I don't mind White Wolf's editing so much.)

Firstly: While I sort of understand where you're coming from, I'm not sure if I agree with that vision of Exalted. Epic heroism, yes, changing the world, yes, but why does this have to equate to becoming immensely powerful? To my mind, saving the world by becoming as powerful as the badguys lacks a certain something. Turning the knob up to 11 does not automatically equal epic—in fact, to my mind it can be a handicap. Conflicts between beings of earth-shattering power seeking to redefine Creation can be cool. But how much cooler is it to defeat that same earth-shattering foe when you've got nothing more than your wits and just enough tricks up your sleeve to scrape by?

I feel like mechanical solutions to the setting's problems are a little unsatisfying, is all. I know you're probably looking at Primordial ascension as a matter of story rather than rules, but I figured I'd take the chance to say this anyway: a character's actions really ought to be more important than their powers. Piling on more power and solving the setting's problems by saying "I use X Charm" is not, in and of itself, all that interesting. It could be the mechanical framework to a cool story, but by itself, I find it kinda boring.

Which is why I don't really worry about whether Exalted characters can push the limits and become even more powerful. It doesn't matter how big the numbers are as long as you can get things done.

Secondly: Indeed! I think you might have misinterpreted what I was saying a little bit, or maybe conflated it with what other people were saying. Whchever. Anyway, I don't think a human that transcends humanity to become a Primordial would be utterly alien. They would not, strictly speaking, be a human; they'd be a composite entity, bound to the themes and ideals that compose them. But those ideals don't come out of nowhere—they're ideas that were important to the Exalt pre-apotheosis. You might think of it as a human mind that's been stretched out to become something larger; there are alien elements, and everything is a little larger-than-life, but it's still recognizable as an extension of who the Primordial used to be. They might be a little more focused or rigid, because a Primordial's power comes from their firm definition of what they are, but they will be focused on things that they valued when they were human. It's different and maybe a little frightening from a human perspective, but like Alchemical Clarity, it's not necessarily bad.

For that matter, I don't think the existing Primordials are completely inhuman, either. Let's look at Autochthon as an example, since Gaia's not very well described and the Yozis are broken. Some of his souls represent things like nurturing instinct, or the creative urge—often genuinely benevolent, and not at all. His less appealing souls include the desire to preserve himself at any cost and the reactionary urge to resist change... but those are very human instincts too, no? Autochthon as a whole is not quite human, but he's not too far off, either. It's probably why he sympathized with them.

And that's a Primordial who was never human at all. (Probably.) The rest of the Primordials, and even the Yozis, also have recognizably human elements—they're warped and exaggerated, but us readers can still comprehend them. A Primordial-esque being that arose from a human is going to reflect where he or she came from at least as much as that, probably more.

An Infernal might have difficulty becoming a Primordial that isn't influenced by one or more of his patron Yozis, but that's a difficulty specific to Infernals. Nobody ever said being in thrall to the Yozis was gonna be easy.

Draxar
2010-05-07, 07:59 AM
There's massive grey area in there, though. What happens, for instance, to any non-Infernal charms an Infernal may know? Does that affect the transformation or the result?

I would imagine they would get the chance to adapt some or all of them to their concept as a Yozi. They might shed a few that were very antithetical to said concept – though in general, if they're so antithetical, they probably don't have that m any of them, and once-Infernals probably have broader/more complicated themes than the existing Yozi, allowing for more things to fit.

You would adjust their specific manifestation, in the same way that Malfeas' manifestation of the protection-from-gods charm is adjusted from Cecylene's


How does the Exaltation itself interact with the process?


An Exaltation is not required for one to exercise the use of Yozi charms. Some exaltations have been adapted such that they can do so. But you can also use Yozi charms by dint of being a Yozi. (Or a fetich soul, or a Yozi-spawned behemoth.)


[quote]After all, Infernals who know a bunch of charms aren't exactly growing extra demon-souls along the way.

Why not?

There are multiple Yozi charms that permanently and irreversably change the way you interact with mental influence. There are multiple Yozi charms that permanently and irreversably change your need for sleep.

There is a Yozi charm that permanently turns you into a being whose natural state is incorporeal. One that permenantly changes how you interact with others socially, based on relative Essence ratings.

Every Yozi has a charm that permanently changes the way you interact with stunts.

There is a Yozi charm that describes itself as "ignite a primative and insensate new soul within her essence." I would imagine that mutiple soul charms probably branch off of that.

So yes, I think Infernals who learn the appropriate bunch of charms will grow demon souls along the way. And somewhere along that path, will lose their exaltation.

[QUOTE=The Rose Dragon;8443467]If he knew it as a Malfean Charm, his akuma could learn it too, since they can learn Malfean Charms. Since his akuma [I]can't learn Unquestionable Yozi Authority, it's not a Malfean Charm.

Manual of Exalted Power: Infernals, Page 100, 2nd paragraph, last sentence:

Adapted Charms can't be taught to anyone, even the Yozi's own Infernal servants


But Infernals? At a certain point, they become a Primordial. Not just like a Primordial, not just an Exalt with Primordial Charms, but an actual, holistic Primordial. And at that point, they are no longer human. Their Exaltation would fly away, stripped from their soul, but it doesn't matter. They don't need it anymore.

Can, not must. But beyond that, yes.


By the way, is there a source that says you can turn into a Primordial to begin with? I kind of assumed you had to be "born" that way.

Here (http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/Thus_Spake_Zaranephilpal/InfernalEvolution)

Primal Fury
2010-05-07, 08:56 AM
No. You become more than them.

No, that's only if you actually work to become more than them. If an Infernal makes an effort to learn all Malfeas charms, then that Infernal will become Malfeas. And lose their Exaltation in the process.

No one said it was the smart thing to do, but it is an option.

Indon
2010-05-07, 10:09 AM
No, that's only if you actually work to become more than them. If an Infernal makes an effort to learn all Malfeas charms, then that Infernal will become Malfeas. And lose their Exaltation in the process.

No one said it was the smart thing to do, but it is an option.

I would say that a Green Sun Prince is already more than a primordial.

The idea that the largely additive process of gaining Yozi charms ends with what is essentially converting the Exalt into an NPC doesn't make sense in the setting (as it defies the Exaltations' primary power of breaking the rules of reality) and it isn't dramatically interesting either.

An Exalt who assumes a Primordials form is going to be better at it than the Primordial themselves - because that's what Solars (and by extention the Infernals) do, they do everything better than everyone, and everything, else (forever times infinity!). And I don't mean just the Yozis, I mean the Primordials.

An Exalt transformed into Malfeas will be Malfeas, certainly, but also so much more. The power and identity of the Primordials is not absolute, and both are things subservient to the power of the Exalts.

I'm not saying it makes sense for an Infernal to remain wholly human after completing the Apotheosis. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense for the Infernal to become wholly Primordial. Indeed, I'm saying that the most interesting and sensible option is that the Infernal becomes Something Else Altogether. Something new, and more awesome than either unaugmented Infernal or Primordial alike.

FatR
2010-05-07, 10:13 AM
I think this is a weird feature of Exalted: two people can hardly agree on what to expect from it and how the setting works.

Whether it is a good thing or a bad one, I can't say.
After the first time you'll get a campaign that lasted for more than a year blown up and long friendship almost ruined because you and your friend latched onto diametrally and directly opposed parts of the mess that is called Exalted canon (for lack of a better word) and heavily invested in them emotionaly, you'll be able to say for certain.

Primal Fury
2010-05-07, 10:26 AM
The idea that the largely additive process of gaining Yozi charms ends with what is essentially converting the Exalt into an NPC doesn't make sense in the setting (as it defies the Exaltations' primary power of breaking the rules of reality) and it isn't dramatically interesting either.
Who ever said becoming a Yozi makes you an NPC?


An Exalt who assumes a Primordials form is going to be better at it than the Primordial themselves - because that's what Solars (and by extention the Infernals) do, they do everything better than everyone, and everything, else (forever times infinity!). And I don't mean just the Yozis, I mean the Primordials.
Not really. If you learn all of Malfeas' charms, then you ARE Malfeas. You don't get to be better than him, or worse than him. You ARE him.

As a sidenote, Solars don't do everything better than everyone. They're the best at being human. A Twilight will never be better than... Gaia at creating life. She is The Mother of Creation. Granted, a Solar will be better at... hitting stuff with a sword, and ruling Creation through his own Glory, but not creating life.


An Exalt transformed into Malfeas will be Malfeas, certainly, but also so much more. The power and identity of the Primordials is not absolute, and both are things subservient to the power of the Exalts.
But he won't be an Exalt anymore, he'll be Malfeas.


I'm not saying it makes sense for an Infernal to remain wholly human after completing the Apotheosis. I'm just saying it doesn't make sense for the Infernal to become wholly Primordial.
If they're willing to lobotomize themselves for power, then yeah, it makes sense. It's stupid for them to do so, but it makes sense.


Indeed, I'm saying that the most interesting and sensible option is that the Infernal becomes Something Else Altogether. Something new, and more awesome than either unaugmented Infernal or Primordial alike.
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. :smallsmile:

FatR
2010-05-07, 10:28 AM
I would say that a Green Sun Prince is already more than a primordial.

The idea that the largely additive process of gaining Yozi charms ends with what is essentially converting the Exalt into an NPC doesn't make sense in the setting (as it defies the Exaltations' primary power of breaking the rules of reality)
Except, nowhere is the actual book this is said to be the Exaltations' primary power. This is a purely fanon idea, created, I think, thanks to denial of the fact that the actual Creation, as written by White Wolves, is a highly fatalistic setting, where the direction of your destiny and your station in life are determined by the color of your winning ticket in the Exaltation lottery (and if you've failed to draw one, you're literally a puppet dancing on the strings of Fate). Notably, the one and only character in the entire setting who managed to go beyond her preordained limits and do what seemed impossible is now the Big Bad.

tonberrian
2010-05-07, 10:55 AM
Except, nowhere is the actual book this is said to be the Exaltations' primary power. This is a purely fanon idea, created, I think, thanks to denial of the fact that the actual Creation, as written by White Wolves, is a highly fatalistic setting, where the direction of your destiny and your station in life are determined by the color of your winning ticket in the Exaltation lottery (and if you've failed to draw one, you're literally a puppet dancing on the strings of Fate). Notably, the one and only character in the entire setting who managed to go beyond her preordained limits and do what seemed impossible is now the Big Bad.

I disagree. The color of your Exaltation ticket only tells you what particular dangers you have to avoid. Pick black, and you're a destroyer, but you can destroy despair just as easily as you can ransack Gem. Pick green, and sure, you've got a second goal superimposed on you, but all it takes to avoid it is to act like a B-list villian. That's just a few examples. There's always a fundamental level of choice in what you can do.

Also, you're wrong; the Perfect of Paragon is perhaps even more impressive, and not even all that bad a guy.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-07, 11:28 AM
Of course it's impossible for an Exalt to become an independant Yozi, or primordial as they gain power. At best, they will be subsumed into the existing Yozi/Primordial entirely.

There's nothing that they can do about it, and they're stupid for thinking otherwise.

Not that any of the above will stop them doing so anyway.
Who the Hell do you think you are? MINE IS THE DRILL THAT WILL PIERCE THE HEAVENS!

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-07, 11:53 AM
The Exaltation's primary purpose is not breaking the laws of reality - most of what the Exaltation does is simple Essence channeling and amplification. Exaltations are basically artifacts that grant super-Enlightenment to humans.

Exaltations might snarl the Loom of Fate, but that's not the same as breaking the laws of reality. That would involve creating or destroying concepts - which only Primordials and Shinma can do, both of which are very weird. Even when a Green Sun Prince blows up Gem two years ahead of schedule and causes a Pattern Spider to pitch a fit, he's still working within the constraints of reality.

The Tygre
2010-05-07, 11:58 AM
*snip*

1.) Sorry about that. That's just my personal view of Exalted. Everyone's got their own; some are in it for epic tragedies and heroism like Greek myth, others want superheroes, or anime, or romances, etc. I just have a fetish for breaking limits, going past walls, adding +1. It's my own personal thing that I've always had. I don't expect anyone else to conform to it, I just don't like being told that any given path is an absolute dead end.

2.) Never thought of it that way before... Sorry for yelling there. I'm a little too hot-headed for my own good.


Of course it's impossible for an Exalt to become an independant Yozi, or primordial as they gain power. At best, they will be subsumed into the existing Yozi/Primordial entirely.

See, I don't buy that. I can (very reluctantly) buy that a Prince becomes a Primordial, no more, no less. But that they just get subsumed into their patron? That kind of, well, sucks. Do their patrons change at all from the absorption? And there's still the question of a Prince who draws on multiple patrons for their Charms and powers. For example, a Prince who draws on Malfeas and the Ebon Dragon; he doesn't learn all the Charms of one or the other, but he stills gains as much Essence and Exp. as a Prince that would. Shouldn't he become something new? What if he makes a new Charm that requires Charms from both patrons to work? Would either of them learn it, or would it be wholly unique to the Prince? Where do they go? Where do they belong?

Speaking OoC, that's just a really lame way to go. If I wanted to be a character who did great deeds on the earth only so all my work and glory, every person I met, everything I built, every experience or torment I ever endured could be claimed by a living abstract concept, I'd just be a Sidereal. At least then I'd be on the winning team and I could shack up in a nice villa in Yu-Shan instead of something like 'The Forest of Pointy Things That is Actually One Really Big Demon That's Eating All Your Freudian Impulses and Children's Tears'. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. That came from a place of anger.

Indon
2010-05-07, 12:54 PM
Except, nowhere is the actual book this is said to be the Exaltations' primary power. This is a purely fanon idea, created, I think, thanks to denial of the fact that the actual Creation, as written by White Wolves, is a highly fatalistic setting, where the direction of your destiny and your station in life are determined by the color of your winning ticket in the Exaltation lottery (and if you've failed to draw one, you're literally a puppet dancing on the strings of Fate). Notably, the one and only character in the entire setting who managed to go beyond her preordained limits and do what seemed impossible is now the Big Bad.

It's fairly strongly implied that the power of Essence is explicitly to rewrite reality. Sorcery actively does so, and its' use to permanently change Creation is in canon (as the Working, even). Multiple fundamental laws of reality have also been changed or broken by Exalts at times in various ways, without even working through Yu Shan's heirarchy.


As a sidenote, Solars don't do everything better than everyone. They're the best at being human. A Twilight will never be better than... Gaia at creating life. She is The Mother of Creation. Granted, a Solar will be better at... hitting stuff with a sword, and ruling Creation through his own Glory, but not creating life.
The First Age had a group of Twilights who wanted to turn Creation into a multiverse.

I'm fairly sure had they pulled it off, they would have one-upped Gaia.

In fact, Solars can and have created entirely new viable species, with fairly low-power effects such as the ludicrously powerful Wild-Shaping Technique.


But he won't be an Exalt anymore, he'll be Malfeas.
Er, wait. This doesn't mesh with


I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. :smallsmile:

This.

I'm saying that that's what the result of this as-yet-undefined mechanical process should be. How can you both agree and disagree with it, unless you're making the same "They'll just pull it off anyway" point that Tiki's making, which is tantamount to the "exalations break things" point that I was making earlier.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-07, 12:59 PM
Yes, because a desire to do something ridiculous is complete proof that you are capable of pulling it off.

First Age Solars had big ideas. Especially Twilights. This doesn't mean they did everything they wanted.

Ever hear about that Twilight who designed a belt to transport him to Elsewhere so he could steal everyone's stuff? Remember what happened to him?

Sanguine
2010-05-07, 01:04 PM
Yes, because a desire to do something ridiculous is complete proof that you are capable of pulling it off.

First Age Solars had big ideas. Especially Twilights. This doesn't mean they did everything they wanted.

Ever hear about that Twilight who designed a belt to transport him to Elsewhere so he could steal everyone's stuff? Remember what happened to him?

Yeah he succeeded in building a belt to transport himself Elsewhere. Just because the result wasn't what he wanted doesn't mean he failed.

Primal Fury
2010-05-07, 01:18 PM
The First Age had a group of Twilights who wanted to turn Creation into a multiverse.

I'm fairly sure had they pulled it off, they would have one-upped Gaia.

In fact, Solars can and have created entirely new viable species, with fairly low-power effects such as the ludicrously powerful Wild-Shaping Technique.
But that's creating a universe, not creating life. None of the Primordials could have made Creation by themselves, their views are far to narrow. SWLIHN would have made a perfectly symmetrical, crystalline "paradise" where everyone knew their place and no one had free will. Gaia would have created a wilderness filled with all types of beasts where the only law is "Survival of the fittest. Sure, a group of Twilights can create a whole universe, but they can't lay down and spontaneously give birth to countless species whenever the mood strikes them.



Er, wait. This doesn't mesh with This.


Infernals only become more if they WANT to become more. If you just sit back and learn Malfeas charms with the intention of becoming Malfeas, then you will become Malfeas. No more, no less.

Indon
2010-05-07, 01:24 PM
Ever hear about that Twilight who designed a belt to transport him to Elsewhere so he could steal everyone's stuff? Remember what happened to him?

As far as I can see, he succeeded! (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0069.html)


Sure, a group of Twilights can create a whole universe, but they can't lay down and spontaneously give birth to countless species whenever the mood strikes them.
But doesn't Wyld-Shaping Technique mean exactly that?


Infernals only become more if they WANT to become more. If you just sit back and learn Malfeas charms with the intention of becoming Malfeas, then you will become Malfeas. No more, no less.

I should imagine the Infernals would sit back and learn Malfeas charms with the intention of becoming Malfeas and then some.

Even an insane antagonist doing it would be fairly uninteresting if, upon apotheosis, the Yozi just metaphysically swallowed him up.

The Tygre
2010-05-07, 01:29 PM
As far as I can see, he succeeded! (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0069.html)

I am never going to be able to read this comic without watching Secret's necklace ever again. Just... damn.

Primal Fury
2010-05-07, 01:42 PM
But doesn't Wyld-Shaping Technique mean exactly that?
Not exactly, no. Solars require the wyld to do this, all Gaia needs is her own essence.



I should imagine the Infernals would sit back and learn Malfeas charms with the intention of becoming Malfeas and then some.

Even an insane antagonist doing it would be fairly uninteresting if, upon apotheosis, the Yozi just metaphysically swallowed him up.

Like I said, it's a stupid thing for an Infernal to do, but if that's what they want...

Tavar
2010-05-07, 01:44 PM
Yeah he succeeded in building a belt to transport himself Elsewhere. Just because the result wasn't what he wanted doesn't mean he failed.

Umm...yes it does. He wanted to do task B(steal stuff from elsewhere). He did task A(make an elsewhere portal) in order to do task B, but he was unable to do B one he got there. That's failure.

Indon
2010-05-07, 02:24 PM
Like I said, it's a stupid thing for an Infernal to do, but if that's what they want...

Arguably, trying to tempt the player could make for good RP. Especially if the Yozi in question is the Ebon Dragon!

FatR
2010-05-07, 02:38 PM
I disagree. The color of your Exaltation ticket only tells you what particular dangers you have to avoid. Pick black, and you're a destroyer, but you can destroy despair just as easily as you can ransack Gem.
No, you can't. Authors said explicitly that the only way to stop ultimately serving Death is stop being an Abyssal. Also, there are that virtually invulnerable evil overlords whose b%^&* you are and who can rape you in the brain at the first sign of disobedience, or whenever they feel like so ( hope your GM doesn't like to play the big bads smart).


Pick green, and sure, you've got a second goal superimposed on you, but all it takes to avoid it is to act like a B-list villian.
That's... not exactly little. But I agree that Infernals is probably at the third place after Solars and Lunars as far as combination of power and freedom to act is concerned.


That's just a few examples. There's always a fundamental level of choice in what you can do.
No. For some more examples you cannot choose to stop sucking and start being important if your winning ticket is elemental- or even star-colored.


Also, you're wrong; the Perfect of Paragon is perhaps even more impressive, and not even all that bad a guy.
Once upon a time he was. Or maybe not, because his power was based on an uber-artifact dropped in his lap by Fate then. But the driving trait of his personality as of the latest writeup is jealousy towards Solars and resentment for not getting a Solar Exaltation. But at least he is now a taught Essence-user, which, in Exalted, gives you a degree of free will.

Talkkno
2010-05-07, 02:46 PM
[QUOTE=Indon;8449213]

But doesn't Wyld-Shaping Technique mean exactly that? [QUOTE]
Those things aren't written into the loom of fate.
Another example of the limts Solars power, none of the 1st age Twilights managed to recreate a mini-creation with a loom of fate to keep it stable, it is explicity said in MOEP:Sidereals that strands in the Loom of fate are invurable to damage. Heck, in wonders of the lost age, it is explicity pointed out, that if Autobot and a Solar were to building something togeher, the Solar would just be merely following the Great Maker's instructions.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-07, 06:28 PM
See, I don't buy that. I can (very reluctantly) buy that a Prince becomes a Primordial, no more, no less. But that they just get subsumed into their patron? That kind of, well, sucks. Do their patrons change at all from the absorption? And there's still the question of a Prince who draws on multiple patrons for their Charms and powers. For example, a Prince who draws on Malfeas and the Ebon Dragon; he doesn't learn all the Charms of one or the other, but he stills gains as much Essence and Exp. as a Prince that would. Shouldn't he become something new? What if he makes a new Charm that requires Charms from both patrons to work? Would either of them learn it, or would it be wholly unique to the Prince? Where do they go? Where do they belong?

Speaking OoC, that's just a really lame way to go. If I wanted to be a character who did great deeds on the earth only so all my work and glory, every person I met, everything I built, every experience or torment I ever endured could be claimed by a living abstract concept, I'd just be a Sidereal. At least then I'd be on the winning team and I could shack up in a nice villa in Yu-Shan instead of something like 'The Forest of Pointy Things That is Actually One Really Big Demon That's Eating All Your Freudian Impulses and Children's Tears'. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that. That came from a place of anger.

I think my final line didn't quite come across properly here. What I mean is, that it is impossible to avoid that fate, that it's all there is waiting for the exalt and there's NOTHING they can do about it.

The universe itself will go to great lengths to remind and assure them of this. It will laugh in their face at the brutal, fatalistically determined nature of it all, assured of the status quo's invulnerability.

And then the Exalt does something about it anyway, and the universe will still be laughing about how they cannot do anything about it for about 5 minutes after they've already done something about it, before it realises.

Because since when has something being impossible been relevant or not? :smallwink:
Then add Gurren Lagann quotes to taste. For example; "With a man's soul and a strong back, go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb!."
I really should watch that some day.

The Tygre
2010-05-07, 09:16 PM
Because since when has something being impossible been relevant or not? :smallwink:
Then add Gurren Lagann quotes to taste. For example; "With a man's soul and a strong back, go beyond the impossible and kick reason to the curb!."
I really should watch that some day.

Heh, very true. :smallbiggrin:
You kidding? Gurren Lagann's why I love Infernals. Green Sun Princes are to Exalted what Spirals are to... everything else, I guess.

tonberrian
2010-05-07, 09:18 PM
No, you can't. Authors said explicitly that the only way to stop ultimately serving Death is stop being an Abyssal. Also, there are that virtually invulnerable evil overlords whose b%^&* you are and who can rape you in the brain at the first sign of disobedience, or whenever they feel like so ( hope your GM doesn't like to play the big bads smart).

But you can choose not to be an Abyssal anymore. I never said it was easy, but you do have a choice - redemption is possible.

And the Deathlords? While they are incredibly powerful, they are neither omnipotent nor omnipresent. Yes, choosing to give First and Forsaken Lion the finger in his presence will probably cause him to explode you, but saving a town isn't going to cause him much anxiety. And if you consistently thwart a Deathlord's plans, everything they can send after you short of themself is roughly on the same level as you are. And they can't come after you, not without messing up other plans and leaving themself open to the other Deathlords. Worst comes to worst you can banish them with Banish Ghost, though that is sure to piss them off.


That's... not exactly little. But I agree that Infernals is probably at the third place after Solars and Lunars as far as combination of power and freedom to act is concerned.

Again, there is still a choice. Not an easy one, but it exists.

No. For some more examples you cannot choose to stop sucking and start being important if your winning ticket is elemental- or even star-colored.

I can't speak for the Sidereals, since I lack the book, but Terrestrials got it made - as a whole. They control two of the greatest arsenals in Creation. The average Dragonblood will only find trouble he can't deal with if he goes looking for it. And, of course, what's to stop a brotherhood to steal into the Imperial Manse and take over the Realm Defense Grid? Only the fact that they're NPC's, of course.

Once upon a time he was. Or maybe not, because his power was based on an uber-artifact dropped in his lap by Fate then. But the driving trait of his personality as of the latest writeup is jealousy towards Solars and resentment for not getting a Solar Exaltation. But at least he is now a taught Essence-user, which, in Exalted, gives you a degree of free will.

Still, he's a mover and shaker in the South - quite impressive for a mortal, enlightened or otherwise. More power to him, I say.

Talkkno
2010-05-07, 10:02 PM
Still, he's a mover and shaker in the South - quite impressive for a mortal, enlightened or otherwise. More power to him, I say.

It helps a lot that he has a Eclipse Caste Solar on leash....:smallwink:

tonberrian
2010-05-07, 10:05 PM
It helps a lot that he has a Eclipse Caste Solar on leash....:smallwink:

He moved and shook for more than 500 years without her. He's pretty competent on his own (well, with nothing but an Artifact N/A).

Tavar
2010-05-07, 10:23 PM
He moved and shook for more than 500 years without her. He's pretty competent on his own (well, with nothing but an Artifact N/A).

Oh, so nothing except something on roughly the same level as the Eye of Autochon, or the Sword of Creation. Yeah....

tonberrian
2010-05-07, 10:32 PM
He's avoided turning into a cackling madman. He hasn't led a crusade of destruction across Creation. He's actually fairly reasonable, and stayed so for over 500 years. Would you have the force of will to do that?

Tavar
2010-05-07, 10:41 PM
No. I was just pointing out the oddity of the statement. I'm not actually sure how accurate it is, but from your description, yeah, he's not bad.

tonberrian
2010-05-07, 11:01 PM
He's described in Terrestrial Compass: South. I am trying my best to represent him fairly, but he is one of my favorite players in the setting. I'm not exactly sure why, but it may be the extreme level of RATIONALITY he has in a setting devoted to insane awesomeness. Mind you, I like insane awesomeness, but variety is nice every once and a while.

Kyeudo
2010-05-08, 02:04 AM
No, that's only if you actually work to become more than them. If an Infernal makes an effort to learn all Malfeas charms, then that Infernal will become Malfeas. And lose their Exaltation in the process.


No.

You aren't listening at all here. A Green Sun Prince who has learned all of Malfeas's Charms and nothing but Malefeas's Charms is better than Malfeas in every way quantifiable.

Unlike Malfeas, the Green Sun Prince can do things like concieve of defeat, of compromise, and of subtlety. Unlike Malfeas, the Green Sun Prince can create new Charms to wield. And unlike Malfeas, the Green Sun Prince can say "screw this schtick, I'm gonna go devote myself to being the best cake decorator Creation has ever known."

A Yozi, for all their phenomenal cosmic power, is crippled in ways that they can never overcome. At heart, a Green Sun Prince is made from something whose very basic drive is to overcome any limitation.

The_Snark
2010-05-08, 03:48 AM
1.) Sorry about that. That's just my personal view of Exalted. Everyone's got their own; some are in it for epic tragedies and heroism like Greek myth, others want superheroes, or anime, or romances, etc. I just have a fetish for breaking limits, going past walls, adding +1. It's my own personal thing that I've always had. I don't expect anyone else to conform to it, I just don't like being told that any given path is an absolute dead end.

2.) Never thought of it that way before... Sorry for yelling there. I'm a little too hot-headed for my own good.

No worries. My view of Exalted isn't exactly the one you see in the books, either. And I couldn't actually tell you were yelling, so no harm done. Evidently, the Internet's inability to convey body language and tone of voice can used for good as well as evil! :smallwink:


A Yozi, for all their phenomenal cosmic power, is crippled in ways that they can never overcome. At heart, a Green Sun Prince is made from something whose very basic drive is to overcome any limitation.

While I basically agree with this, I think you're placing too much emphasis on the Green Sun Prince side of things. Primordials and Yozis are rigid and inflexible, yes, but they derive their power from that inflexibility. Compare them to raksha: unlike the unshaped, a Primordial has an incredibly hard time changing... but everything else has a hard time changing, too. Basically, they have such a powerful self-image that they impose it on the world around them. Their own personal reality trumps the Wyld. And Creation. And almost everything, really.

So yes, Malfeas can't allow himself to admit weakness, or pet kittens, or otherwise go against his nature. But when he acts within his nature—which, y'know, he always does—he is awesomely powerful. He can wreak destruction on a scale that the Exalted would be hard pressed to match, simply by existing and being what he is. It is impossible for anyone to match the Great Maker's skill at building, or shape reality with She Who Lives In Her Name's ease. They are peerless, with all the Essence that runs through their body reinforcing that view of reality. They can't go against their nature, but nobody else can either.

Disclaimer to forestall protest: the Exalted can, in fact, do the impossible. But it should never be treated as easy, nor should success be taken for granted. The Exalted can fail.

A Green Sun Prince who tries to make himself a Primordial is losing something. He's becoming narrower, more focused, less flexible—but within that focus, he gains power that's impressive even by the standards of the Exalted. Again, it's kind of like sorcery: you make a significant sacrifice in order to gain power. The Exalted are potentially capable of defeating a Primordial in combat—they've done it before—or outdoing it in some other area. With planning and effort, an Exalt can wreak destruction on an immense scale, produce the Five Magical Materials, or shape the Wyld into Creation... but Malfeas, Autochthon, and She Who Lives In Her Name, respectively, could so far more easily. The Exalted aren't above Primordials in every respect.

(I, um, should also point out that learning a Yozi's Charms can make you more like them. Nightmare Fugue Vigilance, Impervious Primacy Mantle, Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue), Hateful Wretched Noise, Witness to Darkness... all of these are designed to give you some of the Yozi's strengths and weaknesses. A Slayer who learns all of Malfeas' Charms is more flexible than Malfeas, but he's still kinda Malfeas-esque. It's possible that high-Essence Yozi Charms would include more Charms of this sort, making it harder to embody the Yozi's power without also starting to behave like them.)

((I'd also like to know where the idea that Exaltations are built to transcend all limits comes from—as far as I know, they were built to allow mortals to channel the gods' phenomenal cosmic power. But that's not especially relevant, because I don't know that I disagree; I'm just curious.))

Draxar
2010-05-08, 06:15 AM
Oh, so nothing except something on roughly the same level as the Eye of Autochon, or the Sword of Creation. Yeah....

It's not.

It's outside the 1-5 scale, not something a player should be able to start with, and something that needs a lot of care in terms of letting the players have it. Thus, it is artefact rating N/A. But that doesn't make it on the same level as something that does whatever the hell weird **** whenever it turns up that it wants to, nor something that can level large amounts of the world relatively easily.

It lets you rule, with quite a few limitations (primarily that those you rule must accept the sigil onto themselves willingly), but beyond getting you reliable bodyguards, and stopping you ageing, it doesn't do very much to help you survive being a leader.

On a Celestial Exalt, it's very powerful as they can ensure their own survival quite effectively, but that's their power being exercised.

The reason the Perfect survived is because the Solars were gone, he accepted being a Tributary of the Realm, and the Lunars were far enough away and had other things to do.

Primal Fury
2010-05-08, 09:14 AM
Unlike Malfeas, the Green Sun Prince can do things like concieve of defeat, of compromise, and of subtlety. Unlike Malfeas, the Green Sun Prince can create new Charms to wield. And unlike Malfeas, the Green Sun Prince can say "screw this schtick, I'm gonna go devote myself to being the best cake decorator Creation has ever known."
An Infernal can't do any of these things if he has learned all Malfeas charms, he has become just as crippled and insane as the titan himself. That's why it's a bad idea to go that route.


A Yozi, for all their phenomenal cosmic power, is crippled in ways that they can never overcome. At heart, a Green Sun Prince is made from something whose very basic drive is to overcome any limitation.
And a Green Sun Prince will be just as crippled if he makes the mistake of learning Malfeas' "I Hate Myself and All of Existence", and "The Only Way I Could Possibly Conceive of Solving Any Problem Is By Smashing It" charms.

Kyeudo
2010-05-08, 11:01 AM
((I'd also like to know where the idea that Exaltations are built to transcend all limits comes from—as far as I know, they were built to allow mortals to channel the gods' phenomenal cosmic power. But that's not especially relevant, because I don't know that I disagree; I'm just curious.))

I wasn't talking about Exaltations in general. I was talking about Solars in specific. Lunars adapt, Dragon-Blooded cooperate, and Sidereals plan and scheme, but Solars triumph. Its what they do. The best way to see a limit broken is to set it in a Solar's path. He'll find a way.

Green Sun Princes are corrupted Solars. They still retain most of the basics of being a Solar; only the ability to use Yozi Charms has been added. The Unwoven Coadjutor and Urge are actually tacked on to the outside during the Exaltation process; they are not a fundamental alteration of how the Exaltation works. They still have a core of unmatched excellence at whatever they choose to do. Why else did the Yozis want them so bad?



And a Green Sun Prince will be just as crippled if he makes the mistake of learning Malfeas' "I Hate Myself and All of Existence", and "The Only Way I Could Possibly Conceive of Solving Any Problem Is By Smashing It" charms.

Those aren't Malfeas Charms. That's a part of Malfeas's personality. Yozis may largely consist of their Charms, but there are some parts of them that are not Charms. Their physical forms are

Further, Malfeas's Charms do not require behavior. The influence it. Take Crowned by Fury. It gives you a serious social advantage whenever you issue commands. This makes it much more likely you will do your social-fu using commands, else why did you take the Charm? But note what it doesn't do. It doesn't say "You can't ever make a social attack that isn't a command."

Take a long look through the entire Charm set. No Infernal Charm forces an Exalt to a path of behavior. The closest you'll come is Hateful Wretched Noise and even that can be resisted.

Primal Fury
2010-05-08, 11:26 AM
Those aren't Malfeas Charms. That's a part of Malfeas's personality. Yozis may largely consist of their Charms, but there are some parts of them that are not Charms. Their physical forms are
Their physical forms are shintais. The Malfeas that dances through the streets is Brass Dancer Shintai, and the Demon City is Brass Palace Majesty Shintai (or somesuch, that one hasn't been explained quite yet). And a Yozi is both made up of and defined by their charms, there is not part of a Yozi that is not a charm. If you take their charms away, then you have nothing.


Further, Malfeas's Charms do not require behavior. The influence it. Take Crowned by Fury. It gives you a serious social advantage whenever you issue commands. This makes it much more likely you will do your social-fu using commands, else why did you take the Charm? But note what it doesn't do. It doesn't say "You can't ever make a social attack that isn't a command."
And that's lower Essence, when you start getting into higher essence Malfeas charms, you will run into ones that say "You cannot ever make a social attack that isn't a command" because Malfeas cannot make a social attack that is not a command.


Take a long look through the entire Charm set. No Infernal Charm forces an Exalt to a path of behavior. The closest you'll come is Hateful Wretched Noise and even that can be resisted.
Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue) says hi.

Kyeudo
2010-05-08, 01:24 PM
And that's lower Essence, when you start getting into higher essence Malfeas charms, you will run into ones that say "You cannot ever make a social attack that isn't a command" because Malfeas cannot make a social attack that is not a command.


Really? Show me this in any cannonical supplement.



Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue) says hi.

Read the Charm again. You get to choose the greater good you follow, when to dodge mental influence, and what not. The Charm does not impose any restrictions on you that you weren't already suffering because of your 5+ Virtue rating, it just takes them a step farther.

Primal Fury
2010-05-08, 01:43 PM
Really? Show me this in any cannonical supplement.
Well I'm afraid I can't do that, because none of this has been published yet. All of what we're saying is just conjecture at this point, and nothing can be proven. In truth, this whole argument is moot because no one can prove anything. I guess we'll have to wait until they stat out Malfeas.

But the point still stands: You learn all of Malfeas's charms and nothing else, you become Malfeas. No more, no less. Full stop. Ask the writers if you want. They'll tell you the same. I've said my peace. I'm done. Goodbye.



Read the Charm again. You get to choose the greater good you follow, when to dodge mental influence, and what not. The Charm does not impose any restrictions on you that you weren't already suffering because of your 5+ Virtue rating, it just takes them a step farther.
*Sigh*


Additionally,
whenever an Infernal would roll dice for a Virtue enhanced
by a purchase of this Charm (whether as a pool by itself or
bonus dice from a channel), the Charm converts these dice
into automatic successes. This isn’t optional, so characters
must always spend Willpower to resist the urges of extreme
Virtue.
That sounds like a restriction to me.

The Demented One
2010-05-08, 02:34 PM
Take a long look through the entire Charm set. No Infernal Charm forces an Exalt to a path of behavior. The closest you'll come is Hateful Wretched Noise and even that can be resisted.
Infernal charms aren't about forcing you to do things. They're about encouraging. Stick and carrot, incentive-based design. They make it desirable to emulate the Yozi they belong to without ever controlling your character.

Drascin
2010-05-08, 03:07 PM
He's avoided turning into a cackling madman. He hasn't led a crusade of destruction across Creation. He's actually fairly reasonable, and stayed so for over 500 years. Would you have the force of will to do that?

It's not that I wouldn't - many of us probably actually wouldn't. But it's that he's one of the extremely few rulers in Creation to rule for long and not do so - I'm not sure what they put in Creation's water, but basic mental stability seems harder to come by than Orichalcum :smallwink:. So the man does indeed deserve some credit!

Draxar
2010-05-08, 05:14 PM
Solars triumph. Its what they do. The best way to see a limit broken is to set it in a Solar's path. He'll find a way.

I disagree. Solars do human things inhumanly well, and transcend human limits, but they're not 'transcend any limit'-monkeys.

The Tygre
2010-05-08, 09:49 PM
I disagree. Solars do human things inhumanly well, and transcend human limits, but they're not 'transcend any limit'-monkeys.

Well, Sol Invictus is the God of Glory and Victory and all that...

Kyeudo
2010-05-09, 12:49 AM
I disagree. Solars do human things inhumanly well, and transcend human limits, but they're not 'transcend any limit'-monkeys.

Name a limit the Solars haven't broken at least once.

Tavar
2010-05-09, 01:14 AM
Name a limit the Solars haven't broken at least once.

The strings of the loom of fate are unbreakable/creating a stable mini-creation.


Also, The_Snark, that's pretty much my view on the primordials, though said much, much better.

Talkkno
2010-05-09, 03:54 AM
Name a limit the Solars haven't broken at least once.

Expand on the tightly defined number of Solar Exaltations.

Rad
2010-05-09, 04:22 AM
Name a limit the Solars haven't broken at least once.

Well, they haven't overcome the Great Curse for starters...
we can add to the list true resurrection, separating an exaltation from its host, creating new exalted and keep their rule against the surprise assault of the dragon-blooded (and sidereals) at the height of their power.

Personally, I like it that there are things that are just plain impossible, no matter how cool you are, in a setting. and I appreciate enormously that WW chose to include them in their game.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-09, 04:24 AM
Name a limit the Solars haven't broken at least once.

The cap of 10 on the Essence trait, the inability to do anything in Elsewhere, the tightly constrained number of Celestial Exaltations, resurrecting the Exalted with their powers intact, bringing souls back from beyond the Lethe with their memories intact, separating an Exaltation from its host, time travel...

The Tygre
2010-05-09, 04:25 AM
The cap of 10 on the Essence trait, the inability to do anything in Elsewhere, the tightly constrained number of Celestial Exaltations, resurrecting the Exalted with their powers intact, bringing souls back from beyond the Lethe with their memories intact, separating an Exaltation from its host, time travel...

It's on the 'To-Do List', we swear...

The_Snark
2010-05-09, 04:28 AM
Also, The_Snark, that's pretty much my view on the primordials, though said much, much better. That's one place where my view is pretty close to what the books say, I think. Or possibly not, and we simply ended up with the same ideas. Either way, thanks!


Name a limit the Solars haven't broken at least once.

Their inability to learn Void Circle Necromancy. Autochthon's Seal of Eight Divinities. The Eclipse Caste's inability to learn Lunar Knacks, or any other caste's inability to learn non-Solar Charms. Raising the dead. Remembering what She Who Lives In Her Name burned from existence during the Three Spheres Cataclysm. It's not that they haven't tried; Solars attempted all of these things during the First Age, when they had nigh-unlimited time and resources to do so. They failed.

The Solar schtick is "excellence." But the things they excel at are, basically, human. They are impossibly good warriors and diplomats, they can invent nearly anything that's possible and some things that aren't, they are among Creation's foremost sorcerers. All of these are extensions of things that ordinary humans can do. They take after their patron in this: the Unconquered Sun succeeds at nearly any task he can undertake, but there are some things he can't do because there's no starting point. He can't change shape like Luna, or manipulate Fate like the Maidens, or shape reality like the Primordials did.

The Solars have broken some limits that nobody expected them to, and will probably do so again. They have the Unconquered Sun's power, combined with human ingenuity. But that doesn't mean they can transcend all limitations.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, necessarily. I think it's one possible take on Solars, and a potentially intriguing one, especially for a First Age game. I believe it was H.G. Wells that said, "If anything is possible, nothing is interesting," and I personally think a game that explores what is interesting in a world where Solars can do just about anything (and already have done most of it) would be rather neat. But it's not the only take on it, and I rather dislike the idea that it's the default setting for the game.

The Tygre
2010-05-09, 04:58 AM
The Solars have broken some limits that nobody expected them to, and will probably do so again. They have the Unconquered Sun's power, combined with human ingenuity. But that doesn't mean they can transcend all limitations.

Try harder. A real man Solar never quits, even when he's dead!

(They become Deathlords and listen to the Neverborn and... destroy... reality... Oh, daaaamn...)

BobVosh
2010-05-09, 05:46 AM
Beat The Unconquered Sun in...well, anything.

Is it still canon that if TUS is beaten creation ends?

Draxar
2010-05-09, 04:33 PM
Is it still canon that if TUS is beaten creation ends?

When'n'where was it canon that such happened?

I've always thought the base assumption of the game is that Sol Invictus can be beaten down and killed, just like the primordials were.

Tavar
2010-05-09, 04:35 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure where that's from. I mean, in the second edition Lunar's book, they talk about how one reason for Luna's creation was that it's possible the Primordials thought about TUS being beaten, and that she/he/it was a backup plan, or something.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-09, 04:40 PM
Is it still canon that if TUS is beaten creation ends?

Why... would Creation end if the God of the Sun was killed? He's the greatest of the Incarnae, sure, but he was only designed to beat back the encroaching Wyld and there are tons of people doing that now.

He's expendable.

The Tygre
2010-05-09, 06:44 PM
Why... would Creation end if the God of the Sun was killed? He's the greatest of the Incarnae, sure, but he was only designed to beat back the encroaching Wyld and there are tons of people doing that now.

He's expendable.

Well, unless you buy that theory that the Games of Divinity are actually some kind of Creation Defense Grid, and him winning constantly is the only thing that keeps the Fair Folk back.

Which reminds me, just a quick question; what's the difference between a Primoridal and a heinously powerful Raksha? Or, more importantly, where did the divide come from in the first place? I understand Primordials don't have Graces, but how come?

The Demented One
2010-05-09, 07:04 PM
Is it still canon that if TUS is beaten creation ends?
Nope. I don't think it ever was. Killing the Unconquered Sun would be a vital step in ending Creation, because it renders Holy magic inert, and makes "day" no longer a meaningful metaphysical concept. But it doesn't directly cause it.

Tavar
2010-05-09, 07:25 PM
Which reminds me, just a quick question; what's the difference between a Primoridal and a heinously powerful Raksha? Or, more importantly, where did the divide come from in the first place? I understand Primordials don't have Graces, but how come?

Consider the nature of the Primordials that The_Snark posted. Primordials are an unshakable manifestation of an idea. Raksha, by their very nature, are constantly changing.

Jerthanis
2010-05-09, 10:42 PM
Why... would Creation end if the God of the Sun was killed? He's the greatest of the Incarnae, sure, but he was only designed to beat back the encroaching Wyld and there are tons of people doing that now.

He's expendable.

In... uh... MoEP: Sidereals or CoCD: Yu-Shan it mentions that at every year's Super Awesome Heaven Festival, The Unconquered Sun and the Maiden of Endings engage in a simple contest of skill or luck that varies year to year, and every year the Unconquered Sun wins and the Maiden of Endings says, "Perhaps next year." and all the gods watch the contest in rapt attention.

It's sort of implied that if she wins, it means that something major will come to its end, likely the rule of the Gods, The Unconquered Sun himself or even all Creation.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-10, 05:12 AM
...No, seriously why would Creation end if the Unconquered Sun was killed? It doesn't make any sense. He's not a Primordial. He's just a god. Creation isn't bound to his existence any more than it is to Joe the Carpenter's existence.

Maybe the Maiden of Endings just wants to end the Unconquered Sun's winning streak? :smalltongue: It would be a pretty major 'ending' either way, considering he never loses.

The Demented One
2010-05-10, 09:37 AM
It's sort of implied that if she wins, it means that something major will come to its end, likely the rule of the Gods, The Unconquered Sun himself or even all Creation.
Uh. No. If the Sun is beaten, he loses. The worst consequence is that he might need to change his name. Creation existed before he was created, and before he was made Unconquered. It'll go on without him.



Which reminds me, just a quick question; what's the difference between a Primoridal and a heinously powerful Raksha? Or, more importantly, where did the divide come from in the first place? I understand Primordials don't have Graces, but how come?
Entirely different classes of beings. Unshaped Raksha don't have a soul hierarchy–their emanations look like one, but they aren't–don't have the insane monomaniacal focus of the Primordials, don't become Neverborn when they die, aren't made of Charms, and are nowhere near as powerful. At best, the two might look a bit alike. If you squint. They're really completely different.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-10, 10:14 AM
Now throw Shinma into the mix! Which are they more like, Primordials or Unshaped? :smallwink:

The Demented One
2010-05-10, 11:03 AM
Now throw Shinma into the mix! Which are they more like, Primordials or Unshaped? :smallwink:
Shinma are like laws of cosmic science that occasionally vomit up world-shaking monsters.

BobVosh
2010-05-10, 11:22 AM
All my fluff is from now fading memories of the first edition. However I could have sworn it was something to do with how the loom was created. Basically it is a fact woven throughout the loom that TUS is incapable of being defeated. Thus should he ever be defeated the loom will break.

He can start to lose (hence why it isn't always day in Yu-Shan) but he can't be defeated.

If my books weren't at my friends I would look up where I got this from. However I do gather that it isn't currently true, and possibly never was.

Jerthanis
2010-05-10, 11:36 AM
...No, seriously why would Creation end if the Unconquered Sun was killed? It doesn't make any sense. He's not a Primordial. He's just a god. Creation isn't bound to his existence any more than it is to Joe the Carpenter's existence.

Maybe the Maiden of Endings just wants to end the Unconquered Sun's winning streak? :smalltongue: It would be a pretty major 'ending' either way, considering he never loses.


Uh. No. If the Sun is beaten, he loses. The worst consequence is that he might need to change his name. Creation existed before he was created, and before he was made Unconquered. It'll go on without him.


God, none of you like stories involving metaphors or prophecy apparently.

Anyway, I'm just explaining why the idea that if TUS is beaten, the world ends sentiment might exist.

And considering his OMGWTFBBQ stats, if someone antithetical to Creation was powerful enough to kill him, then there'd be no one powerful enough to stop them once he's gone anyway.

The Demented One
2010-05-10, 11:45 AM
God, none of you like stories involving metaphors or prophecy apparently.
Heh. Heheheh. Hahahahahahahaha. Okay, no, this is very wrong.


And considering his OMGWTFBBQ stats, if someone antithetical to Creation was powerful enough to kill him, then there'd be no one powerful enough to stop them once he's gone anyway.
Except, you know. The players.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-10, 11:47 AM
And considering his OMGWTFBBQ stats, if someone antithetical to Creation was powerful enough to kill him, then there'd be no one powerful enough to stop them once he's gone anyway.

A circle of Essence 10 Exalts is more powerful than Sol Invictus.

The Demented One
2010-05-10, 12:02 PM
A circle of Essence 10 Exalts is more powerful than Sol Invictus.
In lots of ways, a newly-Exalted Solar can be more powerful than Sol Invictus. Sure is nice to have magical powers without being functionally insane.

hangedman1984
2010-05-10, 03:44 PM
Sure is nice to have magical powers without being functionally insane.

whats that got to do with players though?

Draxar
2010-05-10, 04:34 PM
In... uh... MoEP: Sidereals or CoCD: Yu-Shan it mentions that at every year's Super Awesome Heaven Festival, The Unconquered Sun and the Maiden of Endings engage in a simple contest of skill or luck that varies year to year, and every year the Unconquered Sun wins and the Maiden of Endings says, "Perhaps next year." and all the gods watch the contest in rapt attention.

It's sort of implied that if she wins, it means that something major will come to its end, likely the rule of the Gods, The Unconquered Sun himself or even all Creation.

Looking at the passage in questions (MoEP:S, page 73), it says that gods watch with wonder and dread. It doesn't go into any detail as to why. If he got beaten, then his time as the Unconquered Sun would have been Ended (by the Maiden of the same name), and he might well die, leave or whatever. The Wyld might encroach more (though there are now people and other defences in place. The world would not end.

Exalted draws heavily from the Greek idea of killing your father (/equivalent). The Olympians overthrew the Titans. Zeus feared that his offspring would overthrow him. Thus, killing the Unconquered Sun has to be an option.


Which reminds me, just a quick question; what's the difference between a Primoridal and a heinously powerful Raksha? Or, more importantly, where did the divide come from in the first place? I understand Primordials don't have Graces, but how come?

According to Graceful Wicked Masques, in a section that has a sidebar saying approximately "This is not neccessarily the true, verifiable origin of the Primordials, it's a philisophical parable that frames context.", it says that (again, approximately):

After Time Not had ended, due to the emergence of the shinma of separation (which also caused the other shinma to emerge), there were things which were not shinma but were aware. Shinma are aware, but purely aware of that which they define – Advaita Iraivan, the shinma of separation is aware of all separations, but not aware of anything else. These other things were aware of the shinma, but their awareness was not limited in the same way. Thus they could take advantage of, and combine the principles of those shinma. To directly quote the book 'They were infinite and ever-changing, but they remained eternally themselves'

Some of those beings were content with how it was – they made stuff, but that stuff was ever changing (as were the beings). Some were not.

Those who were not 'engaged in strange practicies and wrestled away the rights to certain secrets from the shinma who kept them'. They learned how to (and then did) build towards a purpose, work together, and make lasting, unchanging creations. They reforged themselves into Primordials.

Later, they made first Yu Shan, then Creation, but that is another tale, this is the story of how the Primordials came to be.

The Demented One
2010-05-10, 05:46 PM
Exalted draws heavily from the Greek idea of killing your father (/equivalent). The Olympians overthrew the Titans. Zeus feared that his offspring would overthrow him. Thus, killing the Unconquered Sun has to be an option.
Well stated, and extremely important to note. More generally, every threat should be solvable with violence. Violence doesn't have to be the best option. Violence doesn't even have to even be a good option–look at how well it went with the Primordials. But violence should always, always be there. As a choice. As a lure. As a trap.

tonberrian
2010-05-10, 06:26 PM
Well stated, and extremely important to note. More generally, every threat should be solvable with violence. Violence doesn't have to be the best option. Violence doesn't even have to even be a good option–look at how well it went with the Primordials. But violence should always, always be there. As a choice. As a lure. As a trap.

Remember, a soft answer turneth away wrath. Once wrath is looking the other way, shoot it in the head.

Talkkno
2010-05-10, 06:53 PM
Well stated, and extremely important to note. More generally, every threat should be solvable with violence. Violence doesn't have to be the best option. Violence doesn't even have to even be a good option–look at how well it went with the Primordials. But violence should always, always be there. As a choice. As a lure. As a trap.

Eh, what about the Fair Folk though, no matter how many you kill, theirs always going to be infinitely many more of them,...

The Demented One
2010-05-10, 06:57 PM
Eh, what about the Fair Folk though, no matter how many you kill, theirs always going to be infinitely many more of them,...
Finite number can fit into Creation and the near Wyld, though, so it's always possible to slaughter them all, and just wait for the next wave to come. Not a good solution. There are far better. But a solution.

Draxar
2010-05-10, 07:28 PM
Also, the vauge (and I can't easily think of any bit in the books that I can use to back me up here) impression I got was that most of the Raksha that are around have been so for quite a while, or have been made by Raksha that have been around for a while (and so on ad infinitum) – i.e. that the rate of Unshaped passing through The Gateway of Sundraprisha, lessening themselves to become a noble Raksha, is quite low.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-10, 08:20 PM
Eh, what about the Fair Folk though, no matter how many you kill, theirs always going to be infinitely many more of them,...

You don't need to kill all of them. Just hurt them so badly that they learn to fear creation, and keep the hell away.
Just who the hell do you think I am?!

The Demented One
2010-05-10, 09:04 PM
Also, the vauge (and I can't easily think of any bit in the books that I can use to back me up here) impression I got was that most of the Raksha that are around have been so for quite a while, or have been made by Raksha that have been around for a while (and so on ad infinitum) – i.e. that the rate of Unshaped passing through The Gateway of Sundraprisha, lessening themselves to become a noble Raksha, is quite low.
Don't remember where I read it, but I had the same notion.

Jerthanis
2010-05-11, 04:13 AM
Heh. Heheheh. Hahahahahahahaha. Okay, no, this is very wrong.

Heheheeehheee hee hahahaha haha...

I don't believe you. If you're not going to even for one second accept that the personification of Prophetic Ends overcoming the Unovercomeable might represent a prophetic end of his rule at the very least, and that you can only interpret that event in the most strictly logical method possible then I just simply don't believe you.



Except, you know. The players.

If the players are statistically more powerful than the Unconquered Sun is, then you've been playing too long or been way too liberal with experience points.

The_Snark
2010-05-11, 04:41 AM
Heheheeehheee hee hahahaha haha...

I don't believe you. If you're not going to even for one second accept that the personification of Prophetic Ends overcoming the Unovercomeable might represent a prophetic end of his rule at the very least, and that you can only interpret that event in the most strictly logical method possible then I just simply don't believe you.

That's the thing. It would be a symbolic ending, foreshadowing... the end of the Unconquered Sun's rule? The end of an Age? The Maiden of Endings' ascendancy as Creation comes to its natural conclusion? Who knows? It would certainly mean something, but what exactly it means depends on who's telling the story.

Whereas I think people were interpreting BobVosh's statement as a blanket "if the Unconquered Sun is beaten by anyone, Creation instantly ends", which is not the case; I know I didn't think of that contest until you mentioned it. Creation isn't literally tied to the Unconquered Sun's existence, is what people are trying to say. Symbolically is a whole nother kettle o' fish.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-11, 05:57 AM
If the players are statistically more powerful than the Unconquered Sun is, then you've been playing too long or been way too liberal with experience points.

No, Exalted are meant to be the most powerful things in the setting. They killed the Primordials, who are far and away more powerful than some measly gods.

The Demented One
2010-05-11, 10:33 AM
I don't believe you. If you're not going to even for one second accept that the personification of Prophetic Ends overcoming the Unovercomeable might represent a prophetic end of his rule at the very least, and that you can only interpret that event in the most strictly logical method possible then I just simply don't believe you.
You're missing the real symbolism of the Unconquered Sun. Think on it for a bit. "Unconquered" is just a title. What qualities define the Sun as a narrative character?


If the players are statistically more powerful than the Unconquered Sun is, then you've been playing too long or been way too liberal with experience points.
A circle of Essence 5 Solars can down the Sun. Such has been the developer's intent from the beginning, and such is reflected by his current write-up.

Draxar
2010-05-11, 10:57 AM
I do really like The Unconquered Sun's writeup. He's a great combatant, but primarily relies on his immunities against competent opponents.

Tavar
2010-05-11, 11:10 AM
Isn't one of, if not the, primary themes of Exalted being overcome by your creations? If the Exalted can't do that, doesn't that prove things are wrong?

The Demented One
2010-05-11, 11:26 AM
Isn't one of, if not the, primary themes of Exalted being overcome by your creations? If the Exalted can't do that, doesn't that prove things are wrong?
Nod. More specifically, the cycle of usurpation and the echoing of the titanomachy throughout time. Fortunately, the Exalted can do exactly that.

Jerthanis
2010-05-11, 12:21 PM
That's the thing. It would be a symbolic ending, foreshadowing... the end of the Unconquered Sun's rule? The end of an Age? The Maiden of Endings' ascendancy as Creation comes to its natural conclusion? Who knows? It would certainly mean something, but what exactly it means depends on who's telling the story.

Whereas I think people were interpreting BobVosh's statement as a blanket "if the Unconquered Sun is beaten by anyone, Creation instantly ends", which is not the case; I know I didn't think of that contest until you mentioned it. Creation isn't literally tied to the Unconquered Sun's existence, is what people are trying to say. Symbolically is a whole nother kettle o' fish.

Yeah, it means something, and since he's the most mighty of Gods, when something is meant about his future, it will affect the entire setting, because he intrinsically affects the entire setting with his existence.

What it means IS up to individual STs, but I think to dismiss it as not of any real cosmic significance kind of goes against the solemnity that the contest is approached with and with the themes of the characters involved.


No, Exalted are meant to be the most powerful things in the setting. They killed the Primordials, who are far and away more powerful than some measly gods.

It's fine to argue thematics, yes, Exalts should shake the pillars of heaven... but I'm speaking mechanically, and if the PCs are statistically capable of taking down someone who themselves can take down the Sun, like I said, you've probably been playing since the game was released, or you've been excessively liberal with experience earned. I'm speaking from experience running and playing at 3-5 exp per session at weekly games; you just don't amass that much more power than you started with at any reasonable rate of play.

Now, personally, I don't mind that much because I'm sort of an advocate for "Low to Zero advancement" games, where the character changes mechanically only in minute details from start to finish, but in D&D you're basically doubling your character's overall power every handful of sessions. You're putting a bucket under a faucet and turning it on. In contrast, in Exalted, you're slowly ladling water into a half-full cistern. You might start out with more, and the vessel might hold more in the end (debatable, but I won't get into that now), but the process of filling it is far less immediate. In the context of an RPG where the players can get bored, move away, or suffer other complications that end stories before an arbitrary value of time is reached means that my statement about too much time or too much experience stands.



A circle of Essence 5 Solars can down the Sun. Such has been the developer's intent from the beginning, and such is reflected by his current write-up.

Maybe if you play with a circle of extreme-max rules mastery gurus who have also found a way to make him suppress at least three of his virtues in a single scene... and then it would still be one of the harshest fights in printed rules and would still take hours to roll out.

The Demented One
2010-05-11, 12:50 PM
Maybe if you play with a circle of extreme-max rules mastery gurus who have also found a way to make him suppress at least three of his virtues in a single scene... and then it would still be one of the harshest fights in printed rules and would still take hours to roll out.
Uh. I don't think you understand the system very well.

Talkkno
2010-05-11, 04:59 PM
i.e. that the rate of Unshaped passing through The Gateway of Sundraprisha, lessening themselves to become a noble Raksha, is quite low.

Then there should be a infinite number of Fair Folk, because a tiny fraction of infinite is still infinite.

The Demented One
2010-05-11, 05:45 PM
Then there should be a infinite number of Fair Folk, because a tiny fraction of infinite is still infinite.
But Creation, and the near Wyld, is a finite space. Thus, only a finite number are capable of fitting in there at one time.

Jerthanis
2010-05-11, 06:54 PM
Uh. I don't think you understand the system very well.

Maybe on the other hand, as a person who has designed literally hundreds upon hundreds of charms, you represent the exact rules gurus I refer to. Perhaps your perception of the system is such that you can understand its ins and outs to such a degree that a circle of YOUR group's 200 xp solars can take TUS.

Meanwhile, my group is a group who has casually intersected with Exalted in two or three serious games over the last 4 years, and otherwise plays a pretty wide gamut of game systems might represent a more eye-level viewpoint on the system in general.

Out of curiosity, which aspect do you find incredible about my statement? Is it "A circle of Exalts will need to be built by powergamers to overcome TUS", is it "The fight will take hours to hash out", is it, "One of the harshest fights in printed rules" or is it "He has to suppress at least 3/4ths of his virtues at once to be beatable"?

Because I'm ready to defend any aspect of that.

The Demented One
2010-05-11, 07:38 PM
Out of curiosity, which aspect do you find incredible about my statement? Is it "A circle of Exalts will need to be built by powergamers to overcome TUS", is it "The fight will take hours to hash out", is it, "One of the harshest fights in printed rules" or is it "He has to suppress at least 3/4ths of his virtues at once to be beatable"?

Because I'm ready to defend any aspect of that.
Built by powergamers. Hours to hash out, although that's probably hyperbole on your part. 3/4's of his Virtues, because all you need to take down is Temperance. Not gonna argue with it being harsher, although Luna is a meaner beast than Sol if he's not got Virtue stuff up.

Draxar
2010-05-11, 07:50 PM
Yeah, it means something, and since he's the most mighty of Gods, when something is meant about his future, it will affect the entire setting, because he intrinsically affects the entire setting with his existence.

What it means IS up to individual STs, but I think to dismiss it as not of any real cosmic significance kind of goes against the solemnity that the contest is approached with and with the themes of the characters involved.

It will be something important, yes. How much it will change things is not at all clear, so declaring that we're underestimating it is simply how you see it, not the One Truth.

It is not clear what function, if any, Sol Invictus currently serves in holding off the wyld. He has no explicitly explained current powers relating to that old duty of his.

He is currently sitting playing the Games of Divinity and doing remarkably little else. Thus, while things might crumble from the shock or whatever of his death, he himself directly affects the setting not very much. It's possible, for instance, that if he died Yu Shan would continue as it is, on the basis that they don't know what to do otherwise, so they'll pretend like he's still there.



It's fine to argue thematics, yes, Exalts should shake the pillars of heaven... but I'm speaking mechanically, and if the PCs are statistically capable of taking down someone who themselves can take down the Sun, like I said, you've probably been playing since the game was released, or you've been excessively liberal with experience earned. I'm speaking from experience running and playing at 3-5 exp per session at weekly games; you just don't amass that much more power than you started with at any reasonable rate of play.

Well, part of that may be due to the fact you're giving out less experience than is standard. Standard is 4xp minimum, plus 1-2 more, plus 5 at the end of every story. So, in a year of one game a week, assuming the various extras average out to +1 a session (quite possibly conservative), that's 260 experience. Which is enough to get to the top of multiple charm trees.

Also, Celestial exalts live for thousands of years. There are specific rules in the corebook for how much XP you gain in downtime if that downtime is measure in years. Which is an entirely reasonable way to play Exalted. It may not be how you like to play it, but it's right there in the corebook, an assumed option in the setting.


Now, personally, I don't mind that much because I'm sort of an advocate for "Low to Zero advancement" games, where the character changes mechanically only in minute details from start to finish, but in D&D you're basically doubling your character's overall power every handful of sessions. You're putting a bucket under a faucet and turning it on. In contrast, in Exalted, you're slowly ladling water into a half-full cistern. You might start out with more, and the vessel might hold more in the end (debatable, but I won't get into that now), but the process of filling it is far less immediate. In the context of an RPG where the players can get bored, move away, or suffer other complications that end stories before an arbitrary value of time is reached means that my statement about too much time or too much experience stands.

I agree that compared to D&D, you start off powerful, and then grow stronger at a slower rate, but you can still get a hell of a lot more powerful in the game quite easily.

Remember that charms get more powerful at a fairly geometric rate – an Essence 5 Melee charm allows you to perfectly parry any attack which is not unblockable or unexpected for an entire scene, an Essence 4 Thrown charm lets you have a base damage of 64 lethal, with a dicepool of something like 17, and an Essence 5 resistance charm that means you ignore any damage that would leave you less hurt than you already are, if it was applied when you are unhurt.

Also, it is worth noting that it is an intended part of the system that you can do enough two dice stunts to carry on Perfectly Defending against attacks essentially as long as you can keep on describing it.


Meanwhile, my group is a group who has casually intersected with Exalted in two or three serious games over the last 4 years, and otherwise plays a pretty wide gamut of game systems might represent a more eye-level viewpoint on the system in general.

It represents a more your-eye-level viewpoint on the game. Exalted is a many layered game. There are those who wish to fight their fights, conquer their kingdoms, and do it on a small scale. There are those that want to change things on a larger scale.


Out of curiosity, which aspect do you find incredible about my statement? Is it "A circle of Exalts will need to be built by powergamers to overcome TUS"

No, they won't be. Barring his Temperance immunity, which I agree will generally have to be dealt with, his defences are inferior to theirs, and there are five of them.


is it "The fight will take hours to hash out"

It may well do so. A properly executed sneak attack could probably take him out if you took down his defences then went for him.


"One of the harshest fights in printed rules"

Probably one of. But not the harshest. The Deathlords are harsher, as they have better defences. From what we know of them, the Yozi would also be harder, as they have wider capabilities and better defences.


"He has to suppress at least 3/4ths of his virtues at once to be beatable"?

Definitely disagree. The more he has supressed, the easier he is to beat, but the only one you really need to get gone is Temperance.

Also, I don't see them as that hard to get supressed. If you can get to him, the right application of social-fu and roleplay should get him out into situations where he will supress them, as they are super-sensitive.


Then there should be a infinite number of Fair Folk, because a tiny fraction of infinite is still infinite.

Population ≠ rate of migration. What we said was that the rate of unshaped choosing to take on a semblance of shape and reduce themselves into being Raksha, is low. Thus, while there may be an infinite number out there, the number that come into creation in any one year is low.

Riva
2010-05-11, 11:00 PM
This is terrible, an excellent conversation is floating towards bickering. You've (TDO and Jerthanis) both got excellent points, so just hug it out.

Just hug it out.


Also, what exactly is a fetich soul? I can't seem to figure out...

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-11, 11:16 PM
Also, what exactly is a fetich soul? I can't seem to figure out...

A fetich soul is the primary Third Circle soul of a Primordial and one who defines the Primordial the most. There are two special Third Circle souls for each Primordial, the second being the humaniform jouten.

Kyeudo
2010-05-12, 12:37 AM
A fetich soul is the primary Third Circle soul of a Primordial and one who defines the Primordial the most. There are two special Third Circle souls for each Primordial, the second being the humaniform jouten.

A jouten is not a Third Circle soul. It is a physical manifestation of the Yozi himself. Malfeas as the Demon City is a jouten, while Malfeas as the Brass Dancer is also a jouten. One jouten can be walking in the other with no problems.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-12, 12:58 AM
Huh. I guess you're right. I just checked all three books relating to Malfeas and there isn't a single reference to humaniform jouten being Third Circle souls.

Though that does make me wonder why I thought that.

Jerthanis
2010-05-12, 03:22 AM
Built by powergamers. Hours to hash out, although that's probably hyperbole on your part. 3/4's of his Virtues, because all you need to take down is Temperance. Not gonna argue with it being harsher, although Luna is a meaner beast than Sol if he's not got Virtue stuff up.

Oh please, 3 v 3 fights can take hours to hash out in Exalted when all participants are Exalted or better. I can't imagine 5 v Sun + Greater Elemental Dragon taking less time.

Okay, so I misremembered and apparently his Compassion power only works on himself when he's got temperance as well, and for some reason his Conviction power just doesn't allow him to parry at all with it, and he explicitly doesn't have Divine Subordination of (melee) or (dodge), so I guess if he gives up Temperance he kind of loses everything all at once. Still, DVs in the 20s and 30 hardness is pretty hard to imagine someone who hasn't sunk a year and a half worth of experience points into combat overcoming even to just scratch him and that's before Ignis starts using charms.

I guess I've been being kind of a **** about this, so I'll back off. I guess I'm just bitter that the writers are pretty explicitly interested in catering to your Exalted, and pretty explicitly not interested in catering to mine.

Draxar
2010-05-12, 07:27 AM
Oh please, 3 v 3 fights can take hours to hash out in Exalted when all participants are Exalted or better. I can't imagine 5 v Sun + Greater Elemental Dragon taking less time.

Sneak attack!


I guess I'm just bitter that the writers are pretty explicitly interested in catering to your Exalted, and pretty explicitly not interested in catering to mine.

For the act of killing the Unconquered Sun, they need to set the bar high. The majority of the groups interested in doing so will have a lot of XP and a lot of player experience of the game. And it's somewhere where the printed statline needs to be high to make the base assumption be that it's a real effort to kill him.

Normally, they go the other way. If you look at Ahlat or Leviathan, they are statted on the lower end of power (for their age, experience and what they have access to), on the basis that more experienced groups can make them more powerful.



Also, what exactly is a fetich soul? I can't seem to figure out...

Primordials exist on such an awesome scale that they express their souls as multiple sentient beings. For the Yozi, these are 3rd Circle demons. One of those sub-souls is the Fetich, the concept around which the Primordial's identity is built. Fetiches are more powerful than the other sub-souls, and if they are killed (properly killed via Ghost Eating Technique or other powers that permanently kill spirits, rather than those which allow them to reform), then the Primordial changes. Some aspects stay the same, but it's a major reformatting – the Yozi Adjoran, the Silent Wind, was once Adrian, and was once a river, rather than a wind.

Kyeudo
2010-05-12, 01:23 PM
How a Fetich defines a Primordial can vary greatly, however. The only two we know of are Ligier, the Green Sun, Fetich Soul of Malfeas, and Kagami, the City of Mirrors, Fetich Soul of Szoreny.

Kagami is the reflection of everything in Malfeas. He watches from every surface that can hold a reflection. Like his progenitor, he works patiently and slowly. The Silver Forest is very like Kagami in the important ways.

Ligier defines Malfeas by opposites, however. Malfeas is a bloody-handed brute. Ligier is noble, cultured, and intelligent. This dicotomy comes because Malfeas defines himself by his fall from power. Ligier is everything he once was and now will never have again.