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View Full Version : Deepwood Snipers-- a good choice?



Achernar
2010-05-03, 09:48 PM
Hi all,

I'm building an archer for a 3.5 dragon-centric campaign. I was considering human Ranger 4/Fighter 1/ Order of the Bow 2/ Cragtop Archer 4, but I found a 3.0 PrC that wasn't upgraded into 3.5e: Deepwood Sniper (Masters of the Wild). It makes your arrows keen, gives a range-increment bonus and empowers critical hits with a projectile weapon--- seems to synergize well with Cragtop... my DM seems a little hesitant to let me use it. Any thoughts? The class basically puts damage from an archer in line with that from a rogue of equal level and doesn't require sacrificing attacks for extra damage like order of the bow does.

Any thoughts on the class? Why wasn't it included in 3.5e (and if for brokenness, what would a good fix for class be?)

Thanks for your advice!

Pluto
2010-05-03, 10:10 PM
It's not bad, especially for throwers.

Most of its abilities are reliant on playing outside dungeons, or otherwise contained environments. If you play in a group where a world exists only within 100 yards, it's going to be nearly useless.

Its abilities mesh very nicely with Ranger spells like Hunter's Mercy and Hawkeye (both in the SpC). Wands of either would go a long way.
[wand chambers are your friends]

If it's allowed in a 3.5 game, I'd probably use it for a non-magical archer, if only because there isn't a whole lot else available.

Its problem is the same that most archers face: a lack of bonus damage. Most of your money's going to have to go into bow and arrow enhancements if you want to match a power attacker or sneak attacker's output.


Any thoughts on the class? Why wasn't it included in 3.5e (and if for brokenness, what would a good fix for class be?)
3.5 Archery can't have nice things.* :smallfrown:
Otherwise, killing the Peerless Archer, Order of the Bow Initiate and Deepwood Sniper just wouldn't make sense.
*except for spellcasters

lsfreak
2010-05-03, 10:21 PM
It's one of the classes that's considered one of several possible must-haves, for keeping a martial archer up with chargers/precision damage/magical archers.

Why wasn't it included? Who knows. Archery can't have nice things, maybe. All the good archery-specific PrC's were in 3.0.

Two other good ones to look at are the 3.0 Order of the Bow Initiate (which is really nothing like the 3.5 version, from Sword and Fist), and Peerless Archer (Silver Marches).

The start of a good non-precision, non-magic archer build might look like
Fighter4 - You want Weapon Specialization, to pick up Weapon Mastery (PHB2)
One level of filler
Deepwoods Sniper2 - Keen, +1 crit multiplier
Peerless Archer3 - Power Shot
Deepwoods Sniper5 - Extra +1 crit multiplier, ignore concealment

EDIT: Ninja'd almost down to the word. Oh well.

Eldariel
2010-05-03, 10:24 PM
What the good folk here said seems quite true, and likely. It is a fine class indeed, and much of what I'd use if I were making an Archer. The reason I am posting is because you may not be aware of it, but KSB Snow Owl's Archer Builds (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=194.0)-thread heavily focuses around the 3.0 Peerless Archer, Order of the Bow Initiate and Deepwood Sniper and is definitely relevant to your interests, if that's what you are building.

Achernar
2010-05-03, 10:55 PM
Very kind of all of you, thanks for the help and threads.:smallbiggrin: I just have to convince my friend that it's not too elflike for his very Scandinavian (Mojn!) campaign setting... but that's my job :P

I'm doing a rebuild to use Cragtop/Deepwood on a ranger base. Half-mile away dragons, ye be warned.:smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-05-03, 11:14 PM
The start of a good non-precision, non-magic archer build might look like
Fighter4 - You want Weapon Specialization, to pick up Weapon Mastery (PHB2)
One level of filler
Deepwoods Sniper2 - Keen, +1 crit multiplier
Peerless Archer3 - Power Shot
Deepwoods Sniper5 - Extra +1 crit multiplier, ignore concealmentI'd make that filler level (Mystic) Ranger so you can use ranger spells from wands without UMD.

Achernar
2010-05-03, 11:15 PM
Mystic Ranger? Was ist denn das?

Greenish
2010-05-03, 11:19 PM
Mystic Ranger? Was ist denn das?It's an AFC for rangers (in a dragon mag or somewhere, you'll find it in crystal keep) that delays Favoured Enemy and Combat style progression to give you better casting (0-5th level spells). The good thing is that it gains access to (an enlarged) ranger spell list at the first level.

Achernar
2010-05-03, 11:24 PM
Hmmm... well, I need combat style to really work. Rapid shot is really pretty... as far as ranger spells go, can't I activate wands of my own class with a caster level check?

lsfreak
2010-05-03, 11:28 PM
Hmmm... well, I need combat style to really work. Rapid shot is really pretty... as far as ranger spells go, can't I activate wands of my own class with a caster level check?

You can activate them, no need for a CL check. Really, though, working off a Fighter chassis is probably better. Weapon Mastery is is one of the only ways of getting extra damage to your arrows, and the only thing that Ranger4/Fighter1 gives you that Ranger1/Fighter4 doesn't, is Distracting Shot ACF (and a few extra skill points, which granted, are useful).

Greenish
2010-05-03, 11:28 PM
Hmmm... well, I need combat style to really work. Rapid shot is really pretty... as far as ranger spells go, can't I activate wands of my own class with a caster level check?The build I was suggesting it for didn't have levels in ranger anyway, just a filler level.

And you can activate wands for spells on your own spell list with no check. Mystic Ranger was for getting the ranger spell list with one level dip.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-03, 11:31 PM
Mystic Ranger? Was ist denn das?

Ranger Variant (In Dragon Magazine #336) that gets spells at level 1 while pushing Endurance & Combat Style further down the chart (as well as dropping Animal Companion). Also adds 0 & 5th level spells to the Ranger's repertoire.

Pluto
2010-05-03, 11:42 PM
Really, though, working off a Fighter chassis is probably better.
+1.
Ranged Weapon Mastery is beautiful for the +30 ft range alone. And +4 damage/attack is actually pretty slick when you make as many attacks as regularly as you will with an archer.
Especially with DWS's crits.

The Ranger's 1 level 1 spell per day just doesn't stack up very well.
(There's a case to be made for the skill points, though. That part mostly depends on your party.)

Achernar
2010-05-04, 12:22 AM
+1.
Ranged Weapon Mastery is beautiful for the +30 ft range alone. And +4 damage/attack is actually pretty slick when you make as many attacks as regularly as you will with an archer.
Especially with DWS's crits.

The Ranger's 1 level 1 spell per day just doesn't stack up very well.
(There's a case to be made for the skill points, though. That part mostly depends on your party.)

The skills kind of sold me on ranger, because if one is fighting things that can incinerate one's face, one better have Hide/Move Silently and Spot/Listen.:smallwink: +4 per shot would be sweet, but I just can't play fighter without collecting dust outside of combat. :smallwink:

Are there any ways of boosting per strike damage as a ranger?

Pluto
2010-05-04, 12:25 AM
Are there any ways of boosting per strike damage as a ranger?
Built into the class, not really.

There's Favored Enemy, which is going to vary wildly from campaign to campaign. (PHB2 retraining can help you choose whatever is most appropriate, once you actually have a time to see what's going to get some use.)

Beyond that, most damage is going to come from the bow.

edit:
Actually, if you take the Mystic Ranger variant, you can delay (but still gain) your bonus feats in exchange for extra spells per day. This can save money on wands, which can leave more for weapons. It's roundabout, but it can work.

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 12:43 AM
The skills kind of sold me on ranger, because if one is fighting things that can incinerate one's face, one better have Hide/Move Silently and Spot/Listen.:smallwink: +4 per shot would be sweet, but I just can't play fighter without collecting dust outside of combat. :smallwink:

Are there any ways of boosting per strike damage as a ranger?

Favored Enemy and spells, mostly. But actually, you can access Ranged Weapon Mastery without Fighter; 3 levels in Pious Templar [Complete Divine], provided you favor Ehlonna (she's a Lady anyways), would get you Weapon Specialization in Longbow (you need Weapon Focus to enter) and you can then pick Ranged Weapon Mastery with 0 Fighter-levels. Just an option. It's easy to enter and pretty good too.

Optimator
2010-05-04, 03:51 PM
Deepwood Sniper is great.