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DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 08:23 AM
So, as a DM I try to give my players as much versatility as possible when creating characters, but the fact is outside of Core books, I am not all that versed in the characters and equipment, so if someone could give me a lowdown(I will check it myself as soon as time permits) if this character is alright and not over the top in any way, I would be thankful.

Anyway, this is what a friend of mine will make. His character, a rogue, died so he's rolling a new char, starting at level 12.

So here it is :

Dream dwarf cleric 11/Contemplative 1 (PRC from Defenders of the Faith)

God: Gond

Domains: planning(bonus extend spell feat), craft(bonus is changed for divine restoration from dungeonscape), plus domain od contemplate metal(bonus proficiency and focus warhammer)

feats:
1. lvl persist spell
3. lvl ancestral knowledge
6. lvl divine metamagic
9. lvl extra turning
12. lvl extra turning



Equipment:

battle plate (races of stone) +2 - called (defenders of the faith) 11500

extreme steel shield (races of stone) +2 animated 16030

periapt of wisdom +4 16000

gauntlets of ogre power 4000

artificer's monocle (magic item compendium) 1500

large warhammer +1 collision (magic item compendium) 18312

strongarm bracers (magic item compendium) 6000

eternal wand of detect magic (magic item compendium) 460

ring of counterspell 4000

vest of resistance +3 (magic item compendium) 9000 to wear under the plate.

This comes out to almost 87 000 gold, which is more or less the money that I would give him to start out as a new character(I forgot what exact sum is said in core to give to characters when levels are compared)

So, what do you think? If you do not have access to these books I will write what each of these items does, though most of them are self explanatory.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-05-04, 08:28 AM
Divine Metamagic Persist...I've heard about that and considered trying it. Basically, with those Extra Turning and Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell), this character can burn 7 Turning Attempts to make Divine Power or Righteous Might, or some other powerful 1 rd/level buff last all day.

Other than that, it looks okay...and I like the idea of quiet, student of the Earth Dream translating to taking the Planning domain (although that was most likely to snag Extend Spell as a bonus feat in order to qualify for Persist Spell).

Optimystik
2010-05-04, 08:45 AM
Just don't allow him Nightsticks for love nor money and you should be fine.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 08:47 AM
Just don't allow him Nightsticks for love nor money and you should be fine.

Or just one. One is pretty much fine. But then you risk giving a mouse a cookie. So to double check, you are aware of the thrust of this character?
That it is designed to use DMM to persist spells at an unusually efficacious rate?

Contemplative has seen an update in complete divine.

gbprime
2010-05-04, 08:50 AM
Clerics who rely on Persistent spells are funny when they run through a wall of dispel magic. :smallbiggrin:

I'd recommend a backup plan if you're going with that. a Pearl of Power or two so you can recast Divine Power et al if you get debuffed.

DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 08:55 AM
Like I said, it's not for me, but for a friend and I really do not have much knowledge about this sort of character yet, so I thought of posting it here before I started my own research to see on what issues I should concentrate.

So, this pretty much relies on him having some pretty good buff on him 24/7 with just an expense of a few Turn Undead's?

So, Dispel seems to be his greatest enemy. Are we talking about Area Dispel or is it a target Dispel that would remove his buffs?

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 09:02 AM
Like I said, it's not for me, but for a friend and I really do not have much knowledge about this sort of character yet, so I thought of posting it here before I started my own research to see on what issues I should concentrate.

So, this pretty much relies on him having some pretty good buff on him 24/7 with just an expense of a few Turn Undead's?

So, Dispel seems to be his greatest enemy. Are we talking about Area Dispel or is it a target Dispel that would remove his buffs?

Actually, if he's pushing his caster level, dispel is a really trivial concern unless his opponents are also jacking their CLs up. This can be really unpleasant, because in a lot of ways it dictates what can reasonably oppose him. Worse, that ring of counterspell will always have a dispel in it. That's all that matters to a persist cleric. This isn't exactly how I'd build mine, but then my target is... different.

DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 09:03 AM
Or just one. One is pretty much fine. But then you risk giving a mouse a cookie. So to double check, you are aware of the thrust of this character?
That it is designed to use DMM to persist spells at an unusually efficacious rate?

Contemplative has seen an update in complete divine.

You say update, is that update more "balanced" or broken then the one from Defenders of the Faith? Should I tell him to read that one before deciding?

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 09:04 AM
You say update, is that update more "balanced" or broken then the one from Defenders of the Faith? Should I tell him to read that one before deciding?

It's hard to say, given that I don't know much about the DotF one. I do know that contemplative is one of the game's best PrCs.

DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 09:13 AM
I see. I really do want to make this an enjoyable play for everyone else, but what I liked thus far was that everyone was sort of balanced. Sure, the wizard always did astonishing damage and all that, but they all had some unique talents that only they could pull off. While being a machine of destruction seems great, it's also a double edged sword in which I don't want to lessen the enjoyment and feeling of comradery and usefulness of the other party members.

I'll have to think about whether to allow this.

Optimystik
2010-05-04, 09:14 AM
It's hard to say, given that I don't know much about the DotF one. I do know that contemplative is one of the game's best PrCs.

It's very solid, yes, but not broken. It basically gives your cleric monkish immunities and two extra domains - costing only your fort save and a little HP.

This might sound like a bit much, but the PrC comes into play so late that it's pretty hard for it not to be in a high-powered game anyway. You don't get the second domain until 16 at least.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 09:14 AM
I see. I really do want to make this an enjoyable play for everyone else, but what I liked thus far was that everyone was sort of balanced. Sure, the wizard always did astonishing damage and all that, but they all had some unique talents that only they could pull off. While being a machine of destruction seems great, it's also a double edged sword in which I don't want to lessen the enjoyment and feeling of comradery and usefulness of the other party members.

I'll have to think about whether to allow this.

Could you show me the wizard's build, please?

gbprime
2010-05-04, 09:22 AM
So, this pretty much relies on him having some pretty good buff on him 24/7 with just an expense of a few Turn Undead's?

So, Dispel seems to be his greatest enemy. Are we talking about Area Dispel or is it a target Dispel that would remove his buffs?

Well you have to remember, the DM's job is not to disarm the warrior every fight or to debuff the cleric every game session. You have to let the party have their day.

But yes, a dispel is this guy's worst enemy. Without it, though, this is a top teir caster who fights as well or better than the fighter. That's a lot of limelight in one character.

Another thing you can do to limit the character is to keep the pressure on the combat. This guy is great at fighting and great at healing, but he can't do both at once. And if he's the only cleric, his combat buffs are actually a DISTRACTION from his main job of keeping the party alive.

DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 09:29 AM
Could you show me the wizard's build, please?

Sure. The wizard is of course, powerful, but I at least keep him "sort of " in check by being very stingy with spells that he can buy(most of the towns are usually occupied or a bit wary of magic, and most enemies are sorcerers-divine spellcasters-some prestige class without a spell book so he doesn't get spellbooks or if there are shops, there but a few spells on sale)

Anyway:

STR - 13
DEX - 16
CON - 16
INt - 21
WIS- 15
CHA -11

Equipped:

Headband of intellect +2
Amulet of health +2
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Protection +2
Ring of Cold resistance
Robe of Scintilating colours
Bracers of Armor +4
Winged boots
Staff of fire

Feats: Improved Initiative
Spell Focus(Evocation)
Great Spell Focus(evocation)
Spell Penetration
Sudden Silent
Energy Substitution(Sonic)

Don't know if you need anything else.

Gnaeus
2010-05-04, 09:40 AM
Another thing you can do to limit the character is to keep the pressure on the combat. This guy is great at fighting and great at healing, but he can't do both at once. And if he's the only cleric, his combat buffs are actually a DISTRACTION from his main job of keeping the party alive.

A cleric's main job is not keeping the party alive. A clerics main job is rewriting the rules of the universe with spells so that the enemy are either dead or incapable of harming the party. Except for an occasional Heal in an emergency, a good cleric only heals when the fight is over, and his combat buffs don't slow him down a bit. This is even more true when the cleric can Persist a Mass Lesser Vigor so that all his teammates stabilize automatically and heal back to full by themselves if left alone long enough.

OP: Is this a problem player? If he hogs the spotlight and doesn't play well with others consider nerfing DMM persist. It isn't overpowered by itself, but it can overpower some campaigns.

If the player is reasonable, talk with him beforehand. Explain that his cleric will probably be the most powerful character in the party, and ask him to consider using some of his vast power to persist party wide buffs, like Mass Lesser Vigor, which can really help the party while not leaving anyone in the dust. Then you just adjust the monsters to challenge the more powerful party and all is well.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 09:42 AM
Looking at the 'zard, DMM persist might be a response to the fact that his rogue probably died due to a distinct lack of BC or buffs. How DID his Rogue go out?

Optimystik
2010-05-04, 09:44 AM
Well you have to remember, the DM's job is not to disarm the warrior every fight or to debuff the cleric every game session. You have to let the party have their day.

This - he's sunk quite a few of his feats into the DMM game. You can and should dispel him sometimes, just so he's aware of the Achilles' Heel... but don't make it a kneejerk reaction, and make sure you treat the other caster(s) equally.


Another thing you can do to limit the character is to keep the pressure on the combat. This guy is great at fighting and great at healing, but he can't do both at once. And if he's the only cleric, his combat buffs are actually a DISTRACTION from his main job of keeping the party alive.

Actually, he does the job of "keeping the party alive" best by smashing face as quickly and brutally as possible. There is no need for a dedicated healer in D&D 3.5.

Greenish
2010-05-04, 10:01 AM
This guy is great at fighting and great at healing, but he can't do both at once. And if he's the only cleric, his combat buffs are actually a DISTRACTION from his main job of keeping the party alive.You don't need a cleric to heal. Besides, it's not up to you to dictate what's the cleric's "main job", it's up to the player.

To OP: is the cleric proficient with Battle Plate and Extreme Shield? Don't you need Exotic Armor Proficiency for those?

Also, I thought Eternal Wands required user to be an arcane caster, but I might be wrong there.

DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 10:02 AM
A cleric's main job is not keeping the party alive. A clerics main job is rewriting the rules of the universe with spells so that the enemy are either dead or incapable of harming the party. Except for an occasional Heal in an emergency, a good cleric only heals when the fight is over, and his combat buffs don't slow him down a bit. This is even more true when the cleric can Persist a Mass Lesser Vigor so that all his teammates stabilize automatically and heal back to full by themselves if left alone long enough.

OP: Is this a problem player? If he hogs the spotlight and doesn't play well with others consider nerfing DMM persist. It isn't overpowered by itself, but it can overpower some campaigns.

If the player is reasonable, talk with him beforehand. Explain that his cleric will probably be the most powerful character in the party, and ask him to consider using some of his vast power to persist party wide buffs, like Mass Lesser Vigor, which can really help the party while not leaving anyone in the dust. Then you just adjust the monsters to challenge the more powerful party and all is well.

Actually, he's a very good friend(like everyone else in the party, on that hand), though he only now started to get how to play D&D. He didn 't want to play caster classes due to their complexity before . So honestly, I don't know how he will react with all this power, but really, just like it is said, in case of intelligent enemies, once they see a powerful character it stands to reason they will usually gang up on him.

As for how the rogue died, he died ironically by a cleric's hand. That is by charging a cleric drow at half his hp or something and she used Harm on him.

As for the wizard, he's not really the buff sort of wizard if it doesn't affect him(the player said at the begining that he'll play a coward so like I said, nobody in the party really has much of a problem with it at the moment) and his buffs is usually Haste and Mass Enlarge Person, though he's pretty good with Debuffs. Oh and the, oh so glorious use of Teleport.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 10:08 AM
Remember:
Persist is Fixed Range or Personal only, and most of us opt to not count touch as fixed range. If you count touch as fixed range it can be..... strange.

DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 10:11 AM
You don't need a cleric to heal. Besides, it's not up to you to dictate what's the cleric's "main job", it's up to the player.

To OP: is the cleric proficient with Battle Plate and Extreme Shield? Don't you need Exotic Armor Proficiency for those?

Also, I thought Eternal Wands required user to be an arcane caster, but I might be wrong there.

I will have to check about the wands, but I'm pretty sure that as a dwarf he can treat battle plate(dwarven armor practically) as a martial sort of armour and not need the proficiency? Or is that just for weapons? Good spot about the shield though.

Seatbelt
2010-05-04, 10:18 AM
I would tell the player that he can use it, but you are concerned that he might end up being stronger than everyone else. If he seems like he's noticeably more powerful than the other party members you two will sit down and see if you can't tweak the character a little bit to be more in line with the group.

He seems like a new player. In my experience a new player can have a powerful build and not be broken because he doesn't know how to break it. This lets him play his guy, but gives you an out if it screws up the campaign.

Greenish
2010-05-04, 10:43 AM
I will have to check about the wands, but I'm pretty sure that as a dwarf he can treat battle plate(dwarven armor practically) as a martial sort of armour and not need the proficiency? Or is that just for weapons? Good spot about the shield though.I don't have Races of Stone, but core dwarves just have the weapon proficiency. As for the shield, if Contemplative grants proficiency with "all shields" like some PrCs, and doesn't specify, it'll work out.

Gnaeus
2010-05-04, 11:29 AM
I will have to check about the wands,

Eternal wands do require arcane casters. But if you ignored that rule it doesn't break anything.

gbprime
2010-05-04, 11:43 AM
Actually, he does the job of "keeping the party alive" best by smashing face as quickly and brutally as possible. There is no need for a dedicated healer in D&D 3.5.

Dedicated, no. But 2 party members had better be able to spend an action on a moments notice to heal someone, otherwise the monsters aren't doing their jobs properly. ONE of these people should be the cleric, since they're great at it without spending any feats or equipment on it. (I'm not in favor of tanking up on healing feats, one or none will suffice.) The OTHER healer could be a druid with spontaneous healing or a warlock with UMD and a curing stick of some variety.

Point is, all the party members SHOULD be doing something to the enemy each round, but a few of them have a vital secondary role. The cleric's is built in (heal), as is the arcanist's (hinder).

Greenish
2010-05-04, 11:47 AM
Point is, all the party members SHOULD be doing something to the enemy each round, but a few of them have a vital secondary role. The cleric's is built in (heal), as is the arcanist's (hinder).That's not carved in stone. Forcing other people to play in the way you envision they should is just being an ***hole.

DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 12:01 PM
Of course, I would never force my players to act the way I want, though I have to agree that usually the other players, while not flat out forcing the character to act the way they want him to act will at least try to influence him greatly in doing so.

Pluto
2010-05-04, 12:06 PM
It's hard to say anything about this character without knowing his spell preferences.

If he persists Righteous Might/Divine Power/Divine Favor, he's going to have a very different character than if he persists Mass Lesser Vigor/Righteous Wrath of the Faithful/Recitation.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-05-04, 01:17 PM
So, as a DM I try to give my players as much versatility as possible when creating characters, but the fact is outside of Core books, I am not all that versed in the characters and equipment, so if someone could give me a lowdown(I will check it myself as soon as time permits) if this character is alright and not over the top in any way, I would be thankful.

Anyway, this is what a friend of mine will make. His character, a rogue, died so he's rolling a new char, starting at level 12.

So here it is :

Dream dwarf cleric 11/Contemplative 1 (PRC from Defenders of the Faith)

God: Gond

Domains: planning(bonus extend spell feat), craft(bonus is changed for divine restoration from dungeonscape), plus domain od contemplate metal(bonus proficiency and focus warhammer)

feats:
1. lvl persist spell
3. lvl ancestral knowledge
6. lvl divine metamagic
9. lvl extra turning
12. lvl extra turning



Equipment:

battle plate (races of stone) +2 - called (defenders of the faith) 11500

extreme steel shield (races of stone) +2 animated 16030

periapt of wisdom +4 16000

gauntlets of ogre power 4000

artificer's monocle (magic item compendium) 1500

large warhammer +1 collision (magic item compendium) 18312

strongarm bracers (magic item compendium) 6000

eternal wand of detect magic (magic item compendium) 460

ring of counterspell 4000

vest of resistance +3 (magic item compendium) 9000 to wear under the plate.

This comes out to almost 87 000 gold, which is more or less the money that I would give him to start out as a new character(I forgot what exact sum is said in core to give to characters when levels are compared)

So, what do you think? If you do not have access to these books I will write what each of these items does, though most of them are self explanatory.

Really cool. Good usage of Dream Dwarf. Among the best I've seen in years (the best was an Ardent/Ur Priest/Psychic Theurge)

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 01:19 PM
It's hard to say anything about this character without knowing his spell preferences.

If he persists Righteous Might/Divine Power/Divine Favor, he's going to have a very different character than if he persists Mass Lesser Vigor/Righteous Wrath of the Faithful/Recitation.

Or if you allow persisting of Touch Spells, and he uses it to persist buffs on other people.

DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 01:25 PM
After reading about the Contemplative, I have a question.

His Divine Soul ability.


Description:

Divine Soul (Su): At 7th level, a contemplative gains
spell resistance. Her spell resistance equals her class level
+ 15. In order to affect the contemplative with a spell, a
spellcaster must roll the contemplative’s spell resistance or
higher on 1d20 + the spellcaster’s level


Is that thing active all the time? It doesn't seem to have any limit of uses and it seems pretty sodding powerful.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 01:26 PM
After reading about the Contemplative, I have a question.

His Divine Soul ability.


Description:

Divine Soul (Su): At 7th level, a contemplative gains
spell resistance. Her spell resistance equals her class level
+ 15. In order to affect the contemplative with a spell, a
spellcaster must roll the contemplative’s spell resistance or
higher on 1d20 + the spellcaster’s level


Is that thing active all the time? It doesn't seem to have any limit of uses and it seems pretty sodding powerful.

Unfortunately, it caps at 25, due to the use of the wording class level. So it's going to be blown away consistently by the time it comes online.

Pluto
2010-05-04, 01:34 PM
Is that thing active all the time? It doesn't seem to have any limit of uses and it seems pretty sodding powerful.
Yeah, it's all the time.

No it's not outrageously powerful.
It will block spells from equal-level casters around a quarter of the time, if they do nothing to boost CL and if they strictly use SR: Yes spells.

He'll still need to cast Spell Resistance if he wants a level-appropriate value of SR.

DarkEternal
2010-05-04, 01:34 PM
How so? English is not my first language so maybe I missed something here.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-05-04, 01:36 PM
Unfortunately, it caps at 25, due to the use of the wording class level. So it's going to be blown away consistently by the time it comes online.

Some is better than none, right?

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 01:40 PM
Some is better than none, right?

No. By 17, my CL will almost always be 23+, or sometimes even 30. I need a 2 or better to nail you.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-05-04, 01:42 PM
No. By 17, my CL will almost always be 23+, or sometimes even 30. I need a 2 or better to nail you.

Well hell. At least he has something... and who knows what Lady Luck has in store?

To whomever opened this thread: make loaded dice NOW!

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 01:50 PM
Well hell. At least he has something... and who knows what Lady Luck has in store?

To whomever opened this thread: make loaded dice NOW!

We have divinations for that..... :)

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-05-04, 01:52 PM
We have divinations for that..... :)

lol. I was kidding...

No I wasn't!

gbprime
2010-05-04, 02:53 PM
That's not carved in stone. Forcing other people to play in the way you envision they should is just being an ***hole.

Yeah, but if you have one cleric in the group and he refuses to heal people as they die, who's being unrealistic? Just from a purely roleplaying point of view, the survivors are going to be thinking "damn, we better hire a healer."

Case in point, I'm currently playing the second cleric in our party. The other is a typical "buff and heal" type, always has Shield Other up on the swashbuckler, and spends a lot of spells keeping the barbarian standing. My cleric fights a lot like a monk instead, using a reserve feat to inflict sonic touch damage and summoning elementals via a devotion feat to flank and distract. He only casts a heal spell every 8 episodes or so, but having the ability to spontaneously keep one of my party members from going negative is worth an action, IMO.

DarkEternal
2010-05-09, 10:18 AM
Alright, so I gave the "ok" for this character with a few alterations. For first, the "collision" enhancement seems pretty damn broken since it is pretty much better than a +5 weapon for all things accounted so he can use the warhammer with this ability on only in a fashion when he uses it as a full attack option.

Second, for the use of metamagic feats to use magic I added the cost for materials as described here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/metamagicComponents.htm#tableMetamagicComponents

On his level it might not be a much of money, but at least it's something to consider when casting spells.

Riffington
2010-05-09, 10:55 AM
No. By 17, my CL will almost always be 23+, or sometimes even 30. I need a 2 or better to nail you.

Sure, but in a campaign where people pull that kind of stuff off, Contemplative is the least of the DM's worries. The fact that he had to ask if it's overpowered indicates that a 17th level caster's CL should be in the 15-19 range.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 11:35 AM
Yeah, but if you have one cleric in the group and he refuses to heal people as they die, who's being unrealistic?The people dying, obviously.

Besides, who even channels positive energy, you need a whole plane of it to do anything useful. :smallcool:

[Edit]: Thank Hextor for Ordained Champion for moving the spontaneous casting to war domain spells.

IonDragon
2010-05-09, 11:41 AM
Errors present at a glance:

Persist Spell has Extend Spell as a pre-req.

Divine Metamagic only works for one Metamagic (so make sure he puts down one, and hold him to it)

Other than that, it's a little high on the power curve. If the rest of your group isn't optimized this could be a problem. Considering that you're not so well versed in the expansion books I imagine the challenges may be a little easy.

DarkEternal
2010-05-09, 12:09 PM
Errors present at a glance:

Persist Spell has Extend Spell as a pre-req.

Divine Metamagic only works for one Metamagic (so make sure he puts down one, and hold him to it)

Other than that, it's a little high on the power curve. If the rest of your group isn't optimized this could be a problem. Considering that you're not so well versed in the expansion books I imagine the challenges may be a little easy.

One of the Domains he took has a special power to add Extend Spell.

What do you mean it has only one Metamagic? Can't he change that as he wants or something?

I know it's a bit strong so I am trying to somehow balance it out.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 12:15 PM
What do you mean it has only one Metamagic? Can't he change that as he wants or something?You have to take the feat separately for each metamagic you wish to apply it.

DarkEternal
2010-05-09, 12:17 PM
You have to take the feat separately for each metamagic you wish to apply it.

Ahh, well, he took it for Persistant Spell, and from there stems the problem of having a buffed up engine of destruction 24 hours per day.

Terazul
2010-05-09, 12:31 PM
For first, the "collision" enhancement seems pretty damn broken since it is pretty much better than a +5 weapon for all things accounted

Aside from missing the +5 to-hit bonus you'd also get from a +5 Weapon, and costing you a +2 bonus to begin with.

DarkEternal
2010-05-09, 12:40 PM
Aside from missing the +5 to-hit bonus you'd also get from a +5 Weapon, and costing you a +2 bonus to begin with.

Perhaps, but on this level to hit is really not all that important anymore and the money, when they have like 20 k gold each is also a minor thing for such a thing.