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Avaril
2010-05-04, 08:55 AM
Hi everyone!

I've got a question that I asked in another thread, but it was a bit of a hijack, so I thought I would ask it here.

I love running/playing Call of Cthulhu. All the games that I run and play have been the d20 version, however. I've heard that it seems to make CoC a little more combat-focused, which is not what you want for it. So, I wanted to ask the hardcore fans: what's the difference in Chaosium's CoC system vs the d20 system? I'd also like to hear about any experiences with Trail of Cthulhu as well.

I'm not looking for specific differences in the system (I realize that all three are completely different), but in how those differences in mechanics translate into the "feel" of the game. Whether it feels the same no matter what system you're using, or if there is more of a "We're all going to die" feeling with one system over another, and why.

Thanks!

Gnaeus
2010-05-04, 09:08 AM
I think the chaosium system works better for CoC. D20 to me always has almost a tactical gaming/strategic management feel. I gain a level, now I can't be killed by a mook with a spear. I have new abilities (feats). I am stronger/faster/smarter.

In Chaosium on the other hand, even an experienced investigator can be taken out by a Deep One with a spear, or a cultist with a gun. He only gets better at skills that he uses. He never really becomes superhuman in the way D20 suggests.

D20 has more of the feel to me of the later Mythos works which weren't written by Lovecraft. The ones where there is a cosmic struggle, where good aligned deities (like bast and nodens) are actually on our side, and where humanity has a chance to win.

Edit: I haven't played Trail. Gurps works OK, tho, for the same reasons as Chaosium.

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 09:13 AM
I would not go for the d20 CoC, for the same reasons as above. I run Chaosium 5th, myself, and am very satisfied with it. However, there is a Kill With Cthulhu challenge over at ToS, with a reward of 20$ worth of lollipops, for the first person to pull a spectacular kill with material from the CoC d20 core book.

Avaril
2010-05-04, 09:14 AM
Awesome. I'm not familiar with ToS, tho. What is that?

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 09:15 AM
Test of Spite. It's a high-powered D&D 3.x arena that I run. I don't mean to shill, and I normally don't, but I really really want to see someone claim the reward on this challenge.

Mordar
2010-05-04, 11:36 AM
I am a huge fan of the "original" Chaosium system (also called Basic Role-Playing, used for Call, Stormbringer, Superworld and a few others I can't recall at the moment) for several reasons. [BIAS ALERT: I almost always feel that games should be played in the system in which they were created - GURPSing, D20ing or Savage Worldsing games/settings carries a risk of lost flavor, IMO. Call of C'thulhu might be the best example of this out there.] The two primary reasons are as follows, spoiler tags included to avoid "Wall of Text" effects:

1) You get better at skills that you practice, not at those you are slated to learn at a given "level" or those that you as the Player arbitrarily decide to improve. As an adjunct, not having a Level mechanic allows specialization as early as character creation, giving everyone the chance to be "special" or exemplary without having to wait/survive through several artificial stepping points.

The system uses a mechanic that encourages roles (say, bookworm or face) while still allowing cross-training (in combat, for instance, or driving). This actually allows for better paper-based character development while avoiding skill munchkinism (or skill monkey classes that steal the spotlight from other characters when it is their appropriate time to shine*).

Popping a few English cultists and interrupting a ritual in Nottinghamshire before it is completed is good and all...but how does it really provide a better understanding of pre-Columbian tribal practices in what becomes NE America? By succeeding at the skills you attempt, you earn the opportunity to try and improve those skills, instead of using "Level Up" skill points to artificially inflate skills. Many Keepers (GMs) would allow the skill improvement checks during natural breaks within a story, advancing the characters without waiting for accumulation of a big pile of experience points, a handy tweak that provides incentive to use skills in an innovative fashion.

Some feel that this system leads to a situation in which you can never improve at the skills you don't start at a high level, but when combined with an opportunity to spend downtime "training" skills (taking a refresher class in Spanish, or going hunting with your new friend Samford) you can have the best of both worlds.

Since you can (and are encouraged to) start characters at a wide array of ages and with an even wider array of backgrounds, it makes perfect sense that your college professor is already darn good at History and Occult (since he's studied it for the last 45 years, traveling around the world and living the field life). In a level based system, the experience gained from shooting the cultists and stopping the ritual translates into an allotment of points to spend on anything you want, without consideration of practice (active or downtime), learning curve (it is harder to improve a skill that you're already fantastic at performing...but not so in a Level based system). In the Chaosium system, you have to successfully use a skill before you have a chance to improve it, and you have a better chance to improve your "basic" (low number value) skills than your "advanced" (high number value) skills. Kind of like in real life - if you never throw the ball correctly, you never gain an understanding of how to throw the ball better...and the better you get at throwing, the smaller the skill gains become for successfully throwing.

2) Combat is always scary, firefights are a bad idea, and you should run from that horrific big monster with the slimy tentacles where its face should be.

Since my skill commentary ran so long, I'll keep this one short. A frail older gentleman should not become capable of taking multiple gunshot wounds because he's been around the world and stopped a few cultist conspiracies (or stole an ancient Incan idol before it could be used to open a gateway to some scary place and lead to the destruction of the European invaders). Combat is always scary and a shotgun blast, Deep One gnawing on your head, or your car careening off a cliff because it was smashed by a giant worm can kill you if you're brand spanking new to the Mythos or if you're an established old hand.**

The Level systems were always kind of bad about simulating this sort of thing, and while I understand that D20 CoC (and other later-generation D20 ports) were better about this than some other such conversions, a basic principle of CoC - there are big bad scary things out there, and you are small and insignificant - is adversely affected by the idea of getting bigger and stronger as you learn more about the big bad scary things...when in fact you should become less confident in the durability of the flesh (and the sanity). I absolutely advocate high hit points and level based systems when they are appropriate - building up to fight the big dragon, for instance, or slogging through dozens of shots from Stormtrooper blasters on the way to the Imperial base - but they just don't fit in Lovecraft's stories.

In short, my position is this - the original CoC system better simulates the feel and atmosphere of the game than the D20 port, its simple to learn, and it maintains the principles of the game in a truer fashion without any loss of playability. Everything remains dangerous and scary, you always have to be on your toes, and your margin of error decreases as you move along in Mythos experience...just as it all should be, IMO.

My final note - despite the deadliness and high risk of sanity issues, I do not subscribe to the ideas that Call of C'thulhu "campaigns" are an oxymoron or that you should come to the table with 6 characters, 'cause the first 5 are going to go insane or die in the first 5 sessions. The greatest games are where the risk is always there...but the heroes still come through in the end. Many of my favorite gaming memories are CoC, and I wish all of you the same.

- M

* - "Why yes, my Wizard was born among the gypsies, where he lived and breathed performance and charlamancy, and I've put points in the Bluff and Perform skills as often as I could. The Rogue is better at them than I am, though. She's also a better historian, astronomer, smith, naturalist, dancer, linguist, cartographer, public speaker and sculptor than I am...or come to think of it, anyone else in the party..."

** - And while I understand that hit points are an abstraction, and that gunfight damage is best represented as near misses and grazing fire, they do also represent enhanced durability and the physical ability to take multiple shotgun blasts at close range, sharp teeth tearing at your scalp, or the deceleration trauma of a 1924 Roadster hitting the ground at the bottom of a cliff.

*** - Please note that my D20 CoC experience was long ago, and if I am mistaken about my memories, I apologize.

WalkingTarget
2010-05-04, 11:43 AM
I'm not looking for specific differences in the system (I realize that all three are completely different), but in how those differences in mechanics translate into the "feel" of the game. Whether it feels the same no matter what system you're using, or if there is more of a "We're all going to die" feeling with one system over another, and why.

Well, the lack of steady character advancement is one big difference. No automatic HP increases in Chaosium's Basic Role-Playing system (that CoC is based on), so something that's lethal at character-gen is likely to remain lethal throughout play. BRP also allows you to begin play as an expert almost without peer in a chosen field where you can remain so without having to add more skill points as you go (if you choose to dump a lot of points into something right away).

There's also the way death is handled. An experienced D20 character will probably have quite a few more hit points than your average BRP character. In addition, D20 uses the standard "death occurs at -10HP" thing whereas in BRP you're dead one round after hitting 0HP (and a first aid check can, at best, give somebody 3 HP in that time, so if you're taken down past -2HP you're probably done for). Although, D20 does have the massive damage rule, which I like (10+ damage from one attack and a failed Fort save can kill you regardless of HP).

In my experience, BRP seems to treat combat as the thing that happens when you screw up somehow where the mechanics of D20 indicate that combat is a given.

As for Trail of Cthulhu, I haven't read it or played it. Before it came out I did play a game using the basic GUMSHOE System rules. The differences I can point out there is that in BRP the characters might miss clues that can lead them to the plot. The GUMSHOE system takes it as a given that the players find the clues. This might lead to different GM styles in the way a scenario is built, but I can't comment on the differences in play style between it and BRP, really. If D20 can be considered a combat-oriented system, GUMSHOE is definitely an investigation-oriented system.

Edit - yeah, everything Mordar said.

Avaril
2010-05-04, 11:43 AM
Thanks, Mordar, I think you might be dead on. Your assessment of d20 seems to be pretty accurate.

mikeejimbo
2010-05-04, 12:03 PM
Although I have never played GUMSHOE, I really want to since Ken Hite wrote Trail of Cthulhu. So even though I can't actually say anything about Trail of Cthulhu, I do know that the author is good so I expect it's pretty good.

Avaril
2010-05-04, 12:05 PM
Although I have never played GUMSHOE, I really want to since Ken Hite wrote Trail of Cthulhu. So even though I can't actually say anything about Trail of Cthulhu, I do know that the author is good so I expect it's pretty good.

I'm intrigued by it for the same reason. However, what makes me timid to try it is that all clues are expected to be found (the rolls just determine who found it, from what I hear), and I'm not sure if it accurately imparts the frailty of the characters. That's an outsider's perspective, tho. I've looked at the rules, just never played it.

mikeejimbo
2010-05-04, 12:23 PM
Yeah, I haven't looked at the rules, so I wouldn't know. I would expect that the frailty of the characters is more of a theme or mood that needs to be enforced by the GM.

pasko77
2010-05-04, 12:46 PM
Voice out of the chorus: I deeply hate the chaosium version, everything is random, you can screw up the most basilar action and there is no reward for surviving.

If you want a lethal feeling for D20 system, I'd suggest a little house rule. Just consider as "1" every dice rolled for HP when levelling. In this way you have 6 + con at first level, 7 + 2*con at second and so on.

comicshorse
2010-05-04, 01:10 PM
Posted by pasko77

everything is random,

Not really, Chaosium is a percentage sytem, the higher you have the skill the better your chance of succeding .


and there is no reward for surviving.

Survival is its own reward

Yes , as I'm sure you'd guess, I prefer the original system. It is quick and deadly and doesn't let the game mechanics get int he way of what is important in a CofC game: the atmosphere

Doc Roc
2010-05-04, 01:11 PM
Voice out of the chorus: I deeply hate the chaosium version, everything is random, you can screw up the most basilar action and there is no reward for surviving.

If you want a lethal feeling for D20 system, I'd suggest a little house rule. Just consider as "1" every dice rolled for HP when levelling. In this way you have 6 + con at first level, 7 + 2*con at second and so on.

Part of the idea is that the GM doesn't always hit you with tests. Basic stuff should never call for dice rolls.

pasko77
2010-05-04, 01:22 PM
Part of the idea is that the GM doesn't always hit you with tests. Basic stuff should never call for dice rolls.

You can do it in every system. Plus, a newer one probably has better rules, just in case you want them.

I never understood this fallacy, since it is a game where combat is not important, people prefer the ruleset with worse combat rules. You know, it strikes me as "don't want to change at any cost".

pasko77
2010-05-04, 01:23 PM
Not really, Chaosium is a percentage sytem, the higher you have the skill the better your chance of succeding .



WOW thanks, I didn't know.
/sarcasm

Mordar
2010-05-04, 02:44 PM
You can do it in every system. Plus, a newer one probably has better rules, just in case you want them.

I never understood this fallacy, since it is a game where combat is not important, people prefer the ruleset with worse combat rules. You know, it strikes me as "don't want to change at any cost".

If you want a fallacy, it's got to be "newer = better". While this is certainly true in a number of areas, it is far from a universal truism.

Worse combat rules? I freely grant they're very simple. Roll to hit. Enemy may try to dodge or block. Roll damage. Move on.

It is not that combat isn't important...its that it is deadly, not de rigueur. Make it all simple, don't sweat fancy maneuvers...that's for a different game.

I understand people not liking the game, and to some degree not liking the system. Taste can strongly depend on your order of exposure...if you come from one perspective and like it, things that are opposite to that perspective aren't going to be immediately to taste.

Random is a significant element of any game that involves dice. I *do* like games with Fate Points, Karma, or whatever else you might call it that mitigates randomness. Many older systems didn't include anything like that - Marvel Super Heroes was the first exposure for me, and Shadowrun made it a much more widespread option. What is there in D20 that replicates this and reduces the random nature?

As far as getting nothing for surviving...well, you do get to regain sanity (which can be important in ongoing campaigns) and perhaps some material rewards and/or clue items that keep things moving forward. But no, you don't always get a lump of Exp to spend/allocate towards the next level. In fact, another thing that came around with the games like MSH and Shadowrun was the bonus for roleplaying (systemic bonuses, anyway) and perhaps that's something that would be another worthy houserule addition.

All of that being said, nearly any version of Call of C'thulhu is better than no version of Call of C'thulhu, in my opinion.

As far as the "don't want to change at any cost" goes, I have to call you out on that. I started with AD&D (even before I played Basic and Expert!) and played 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition and have found tons to like in each. I started Shadowrun with the first printing and played that through 3rd edition. Ditto EarthDawn, the White Wolf games and so on. I just really do (as I said in my original post) think there is significant advantage in playing most games in their original systems because the system and setting were often designed to go hand in hand. Newer rulesets in the same style *do* frequently offer quality change. Changing the basic rules to something newer just because its newer...that's not always a good plan.

Play Feng Shui in D20 and it falls short. Play Vampire in GURPS and it falls short. Generic is handy, but not always best.

- M

WalkingTarget
2010-05-04, 02:59 PM
Voice out of the chorus: I deeply hate the chaosium version, everything is random, you can screw up the most basilar action and there is no reward for surviving.

You can screw up the most basic action in D20 as well, though... :smallconfused: Or does a natural 1 not auto-fail?

As for no reward for surviving, what sort of reward are you looking for?

Gnaeus
2010-05-04, 03:06 PM
You can screw up the most basic action in D20 as well, though... :smallconfused: Or does a natural 1 not auto-fail?


Only on saves, not skills.

WalkingTarget
2010-05-04, 03:19 PM
Only on saves, not skills.

Ok. So, there's still a 1% chance of failure no matter how skilled you are that isn't modeled similarly in D20. I'm still not quite sure how it's really any more random than any other game. Routine checks aren't rolled, so the basic things can't be failed if the character can be expected to succeed given his skill percentage.

Gnaeus
2010-05-04, 03:24 PM
Ok. So, there's still a 1% chance of failure no matter how skilled you are that isn't modeled similarly in D20. I'm still not quite sure how it's really any more random than any other game. Routine checks aren't rolled, so the basic things can't be failed if the character can be expected to succeed given his skill percentage.

I thought Chaosium maxed at 95%. I might misremember, its been a long time.
Anyway, good luck getting your skill rank that high if you didn't start with it. Remember that you have to roll higher than your skill rank to improve it.

WalkingTarget
2010-05-04, 03:39 PM
I thought Chaosium maxed at 95%. I might misremember, its been a long time.
Anyway, good luck getting your skill rank that high if you didn't start with it. Remember that you have to roll higher than your skill rank to improve it.

Pretty sure it maxes at 99%. I've seen players (including myself) break the 90% level during play several times (and get the sanity bonus for doing so). Maybe not all the way to 99, but still right up there. Usually in skills started in the 70s but used frequently.

I think that's a good way to model it, once your skill is that high it's hard to learn anything new since you already know it all.

This comes back to the assumptions of the systems again, though. D20 has "advancement" as something built-in (a level 1 character, no matter how specialized, is just not as good at most things as a level 10 would be) while BRP allows a player to start out being an expert, but further advancement in that area will probably be minimal. Characters improve over time, but that's not something the system really pushes.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-04, 09:08 PM
Not like advancement matters to much in Cthulhu games the physical and mental mortality rate is fairly high. Not quite like Beyond the super natural, but close.

pasko77
2010-05-05, 03:53 AM
You can screw up the most basic action in D20 as well, though... :smallconfused: Or does a natural 1 not auto-fail?

As for no reward for surviving, what sort of reward are you looking for?

you can take 10. You can point-buy your character, SAN is no longer the only one meaningful stat.

I'll explain in detail the "reward for surviving" thing.

In a campaign I had, I had the complaint from my players that they would rather roll another character, instead of keeping their current, crippled one.

Chaosium rules tipically bring to a downwards spiral in PCs performance. Survivors are crippled, crazed, outcast and so on.

While this may be nice for the first period, as you start cycling characters, you start to be less attached to them.
After one year, players' reactions to death was, "meh, i'm rolling another, this time I'm a circus monkey".

D20 rules give you this little reward so you become psychologically attached to your char.

It is as deadly as before, but it adds something.

pasko77
2010-05-05, 05:57 AM
If you want a fallacy, it's got to be "newer = better". While this is certainly true in a number of areas, it is far from a universal truism.


Clever answer, I'll give you that. :)



Worse combat rules? I freely grant they're very simple. Roll to hit. Enemy may try to dodge or block. Roll damage. Move on.

It is not that combat isn't important...its that it is deadly, not de rigueur. Make it all simple, don't sweat fancy maneuvers...that's for a different game.



They are worse, there is no concept of "almost dead" given by negative hit points, you can hit with the same percentage chtulhu or a mouse, by the rules azatoth cannot hit bastet, since she has a free dodge every turn*. By the rules, a mirror match is different if you have 10% to hit or 50% or 90% to hit (run the maths if you don't believe me).

I KNOW you may not care about these details, but the fallacy (mine, not yours) is there, if you, by chance, need to model a fight between two demons, there is a better tool at your disposal.

We all agree that a game of chtulhu is given by the atmosphere, and not by the rules, as long as the latter is not a hindrance to the former.
I can guarantee that the feared character level increase does not change CoC in D&D, expecially if you house-rule (as I suggested in my first post) that HP gain per level is low.

*I may be wrong on some of these examples. I've not played this system for 10 years.

misterk
2010-05-05, 06:00 AM
you can take 10. You can point-buy your character, SAN is no longer the only one meaningful stat.

I'll explain in detail the "reward for surviving" thing.

In a campaign I had, I had the complaint from my players that they would rather roll another character, instead of keeping their current, crippled one.

Chaosium rules tipically bring to a downwards spiral in PCs performance. Survivors are crippled, crazed, outcast and so on.

While this may be nice for the first period, as you start cycling characters, you start to be less attached to them.
After one year, players' reactions to death was, "meh, i'm rolling another, this time I'm a circus monkey".

D20 rules give you this little reward so you become psychologically attached to your char.

It is as deadly as before, but it adds something.

And your players don't like playing crippled lunatics? Oh well, it takes all sorts I suppose... I've only played a bit of CoC, but I like how the system works- you get enough starting skills to be good at what you want, and then can improve as much or as little as the gm deems necessary. As for taking 10 excetera, the gm can always give you bonuses for performing easier actions.. so yeah.

Project_Mayhem
2010-05-05, 07:24 AM
Chaosium rules tipically bring to a downwards spiral in PCs performance. Survivors are crippled, crazed, outcast and so on.

Have you ever read Lovecraft? Cause that's kinda the point

WalkingTarget
2010-05-05, 09:15 AM
you can take 10. You can point-buy your character, SAN is no longer the only one meaningful stat.

HP related to SIZ and CON, Initial skill point pools and your Know and Idea scores related to INT and EDU. The stats have importance, but often only in the way that they derive other values. The CoC rules don't have a completely point-buy system, but one of the alternate rules for character gen suggests rolling for them, totaling the points, and then assigning them as you wish. It's a short step to give everybody the same total to work from.

As for taking 10 - the BRP rules say that you shouldn't roll for "ordinary use of a skill" as determined by the Keeper. If there's a situation where you're free to take 10 (or 20) in D20, BRP just lets you succeed if it's something the Keeper thinks your character could do. Unless there's some immediate downside to failing a roll, there's no reason you can't just keep trying.


I'll explain in detail the "reward for surviving" thing.

In a campaign I had, I had the complaint from my players that they would rather roll another character, instead of keeping their current, crippled one.

Chaosium rules tipically bring to a downwards spiral in PCs performance. Survivors are crippled, crazed, outcast and so on.

While this may be nice for the first period, as you start cycling characters, you start to be less attached to them.
After one year, players' reactions to death was, "meh, i'm rolling another, this time I'm a circus monkey".

D20 rules give you this little reward so you become psychologically attached to your char.

It is as deadly as before, but it adds something.

Have you ever read Lovecraft? Cause that's kinda the point

Yeah, what P_M said. The advancement thing is built into the assumptions of D20, and I can see there being a problem if your players need something like that to become attached to their characters, but every CoC game I've ever played in/ran seemed to not have that problem. If anything, the little quirks the characters picked up were part of their charm.


They are worse, there is no concept of "almost dead" given by negative hit points,

Sure there is, you're "almost dead" until the end of the round after you hit 0 HP. Beyond that, you're knocked out if you're below 3 HP (so equivalent to negative HP in D20, but stabilized).


you can hit with the same percentage chtulhu or a mouse,

Are you kidding? At least with ranged weapons Big targets are easier to hit. Every 10 points of SIZ above 30 gives you a 5% bonus to your score. Cthulhu is SIZ 210 adding a whopping 90% to your chance to hit him.


by the rules azatoth cannot hit bastet, since she has a free dodge every turn*.

Azathoth rolls 1d6 to determine the number of attacks he makes on any particular round. The number of attacks also determines the percentage chance that he hits somebody. Bast can dodge 3 times and still get to attack, but even beyond that her Dodge skill is 100%. That's kind of her deal, though, being a cat-goddess - it's hard for anybody to hit Bast.

On top of that, the Elder God/Outer God thing the game posits kind of makes sense that she'd be able to hold her own. It'd take her 15 rounds on average (if she gets to attack each round, and she might have to abort to dodge sometimes if he attacks more than 3 times since a single hit has about a 2/3 chance of taking her out on it's own) to cause Azathoth to be dispelled (assuming he didn't just leave before then, which he might do).

Which brings us to...


I KNOW you may not care about these details, but the fallacy (mine, not yours) is there, if you, by chance, need to model a fight between two demons, there is a better tool at your disposal.

Right, and I'd point out that having two demons (or whatever monsters you want) fighting in CoC isn't something you probably need to have happen all that often, if ever. I mean, it takes 5 minutes per 10% chance of actually summoning something and then a further 2d10 minutes for it to arrive. If your answer to fighting one monster is to summon another to do your bidding, you'd better plan ahead. Other than that, what would the need be to have the demon cage match?