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SethFahad
2010-05-04, 09:35 AM
Ok, to qualify for Sainthood and thus the Saint template you must meet the following requirements:


- Good alignment
- Must have at least 3 exalted feats
- Must never have lost the benefit of exalted feats or class abilities because of commitinf an evil act, even if the character properly atoned
- Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be exemplary of the exalted path
- Must be at least 6th level
- Must make an extraordinary sacrifice for the good of another

The Saint template has an +2 LA.

How can I use the UAs LA buy off method to reduce the LA to zero?

UA states that for +2 LA you must sacrifice 7000xp when reaching level 6 and then another 9000xp when reaching level 9.

If I must be at least level 6 to gain the template, how can I use this rule???

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-04, 09:48 AM
Ok, to qualify for Sainthood and thus the Saint template you must meet the following requirements:

The Saint template has an +2 LA.

How can I use the UAs LA buy off method to reduce the LA to zero?

UA states that for +2 LA you must sacrifice 7000xp when reaching level 6 and then another 9000xp when reaching level 9.

If I must be at least level 6 to gain the template, how can I use this rule???

Elementary, my dear Watson...

You reach level 6.

You aquire the Template.

You immediately (or, when you have enough spare XP) spend the 7000xp.

Just remember that from the moment you aquire the Template, your ECL (and thus, how quickly you gain xp) is now 8. When you buy off, your ECL drops to 7 and you're now even with your party.

Edit: The key here is the fact that upon reaching 6th level is the soonest you can buy off one of the ECL... not when you have to.

SethFahad
2010-05-04, 10:03 AM
Elementary, my dear Watson...

You reach level 6.

You aquire the Template.

You immediately (or, when you have enough spare XP) spend the 7000xp.

Just remember that from the moment you aquire the Template, your ECL (and thus, how quickly you gain xp) is now 8. When you buy off, your ECL drops to 7 and you're now even with your party.

Edit: The key here is the fact that upon reaching 6th level is the soonest you can buy off one of the ECL... not when you have to.

It's not that simple dear Sherlock...

You see, when you sacrifice 7000xp, you drop to level 5, and thus you don't meet the requirements to gain Sainthood.


- Good alignment
- Must have at least 3 exalted feats
- Must never have lost the benefit of exalted feats or class abilities because of commitinf an evil act, even if the character properly atoned
- Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be exemplary of the exalted path
- Must be at least 6th level
- Must make an extraordinary sacrifice for the good of another

Roland St. Jude
2010-05-04, 10:11 AM
And, as I understand it, you have to pay the buyoff when you reach the relevant level, not when you have extra XP lying around.

desmond1323
2010-05-04, 10:11 AM
You immediately (or, when you have enough spare XP) spend the 7000xp.


Thus he mentioned that little consideration, heh.

Though I think I'ma have to agree with Roland...I believe you have to choose to do it immediately...could ask your DM to waive that though.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-04, 10:12 AM
It's not that simple dear Sherlock...

You see, when you sacrifice 7000xp, you drop to level 5, and thus you don't meet the requirements to gain Sainthood.

Ah ha... but that's why I reminded the OP that he doesn't have to immediately buy off the LA. Wait until he has 7000xp to spare (forgoing leveling up to level 7) and then buying off the LA.


And, as I understand it, you have to pay the buyoff when you reach the relevant level, not when you have extra XP lying around.

Nope. The rules for LA buy-off clearly indicate that the levels indicated on the chart are just the earliest point that you can buy off the LA.

It just doesn't make a lot of sense to put off buying off LA, since every level you wait increases the amount you have to pay... However, if you know that the very next encounter will provide a huge XP payoff ("Next, we assault the enemy base!"), then it might be okay to level up first if you have the opportunity.

Roland St. Jude
2010-05-04, 10:22 AM
And, as I understand it, you have to pay the buyoff when you reach the relevant level, not when you have extra XP lying around.

Nope. The rules for LA buy-off clearly indicate that the levels indicated on the chart are just the earliest point that you can buy off the LA....

That's not what it says: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm)


The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment.

megabyter5
2010-05-04, 10:29 AM
Well, this looks like a paradox to me. "Schrodinger's Level Adjustment", maybe?

Myou
2010-05-04, 10:31 AM
Just as getting level-drained doesn't make you lose the Saint Template, nor does losing the XP - the level requirement is to take the template, not to keep it.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-04, 12:06 PM
The way I do it: As soon as you achieve Sainthood, your ECL goes up to 8, and your XP total increases so you meet the minimum required to be 8th level. You can then immediately buy off the LA, dropping you to the minimum for 7th level.

Does this make Sainthood effectively only a +1 LA template? Sort of. However, the only character's I've known who've tried to gain it have been Vow of Poverty and Peace types going for Apostle of Peace, and they're already shooting themselves enough in the foot that the extra power boost doesn't bother me at all.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-04, 12:27 PM
Before applying UA at a minimum a PC saint would have an [/b]ECL[b] of 8, six class levels plus the +2LA template. He would thus have 28,000xp the same as any 8th level character.

The template requires six class levels BEFORE the template can be applied.
UA requires you have six class levels before a +2 LA can be reduced by 1.
A drow with five levels in wizard can't buy off any of his +2LA but a drow with six levels in wizard could.

Using the Unearthed arcana rules he is eligible to immediately buy off one LA because his class level is six times the level adjustment. He would thus pay 7,000xp dropping him 21,000xp ie 7th level.

The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character's level adjustment.
He's eligible the moment he gets the template, thus it can be bought off immediately

If you acquired the template during gameplay, then you essentially leveled up twice.

Seriously the level requirement for the template is utterly meaningless in terms of UA buy off.



My personal rule is your starting level doesn't count its levels you've earned during play.

So say I start an 8th level campaign and one PC has the saint template.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-04, 12:31 PM
Uh... you don't instantly gain XP when you get a Template. Usually the DM puts you in, effectively, an XP hole compared to the other characters while you gain enough XP to match up/buy off the LA.


That's not what it says: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingleveladjustments.htm)

Even if you go by that ruling, the fact that the character has an XP debt due to gaining a Template during game play trumps the ruling. The XP debt must be paid off first... though clever accounting allows one to buy off the LA while saving to pay it off. :smallbiggrin: See the rules about gaining a Template during game play.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-04, 12:40 PM
Uh... you don't instantly gain XP when you get a Template. Usually the DM puts you in, effectively, an XP hole compared to the other characters while you gain enough XP to match up/buy off the LA.

Says who? I haven't seen solid rules for gaining templates during play outside the savage species. In general the rules for templates are designed for starting characters if designed for characters at all. The best way to do it is to level down the character so their XP matches their ECL.
So you'd need to be 8th level to gain the saint template[during gameplay], in return you trade two class levels. That's how the savage species advised handling it and I think its the most logical way to go about it. The PC isn't in any xp hole and as his ECL doesn't shoot up above the rest of the party he gains the same amount of xp.
If your DM allows you to be in a hole for 13,000xp, to make up for the sudden level adjustment. Why should it matter if he digs the hole any deeper?

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-04, 12:49 PM
Says who? the best way to do it is to level down the character so their XP matches their ECL.
So an 8th level PC who wants to gain the saint template trades in two levels for it. That's how the savage species advised handling it and I think its the most logical way to go about it. The PC isn't in any xp hole and as his ECL doesn't shoot up above the rest of the party he gains the same amount of xp.
f your DM allows you to be in a hole for 13,000xp, to make up for the sudden level adjustment. Why should it matter if he digs the hole any deeper?

Why?

Because of the VoP the character becoming a Saint most likely has. Especially if he's a Monk like so many uninformed people do.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-04, 01:18 PM
Why?

Because of the VoP the character becoming a Saint most likely has. Especially if he's a Monk like so many uninformed people do.

What does having the VoP have anything to do with digging an xp hole. You still haven't shown where it says characters who gain a template during play should have such a hole to begin with.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-05-04, 01:39 PM
really fun template for a Paladin

Person_Man
2010-05-04, 03:14 PM
Sainthood and Level Adjustment buy off are both optional rules - neither exists unless your DM says they exist - and your DM decides how they interact.

My opinion is that they are not compatible. The Sainthood template is given to the the PC at the DM's discretion within the qualifications you quoted. Then:


Upon acquiring the template... the character sacrifices her next two levels in order to "catch up" with the artificially low level adjustment of the template. For example, a 7th level Paladin who becomes a saint becomes the equivilent of a 9th level character. She must accumulate a total of 45,000 xp to gain another level, becoming an 8th-level Paladin and a 10th-level character.

BoED pg 29

So the DM fiat gives you the template, and you then pay for it by having to get a ridiculous level of XP to gain another level. Theoretically once you've payed the XP to gain a another level and "earn" the template, you could then pay additional XP to buy off the template following the rules in Unearthed Arcana. But the Saint is such a ridiculously overpowered template (Outside type, Wis to AC, +2 to all DCs, bonus to damage, DR, ridiculous Fast Healing, immunities, darkvision, constant Circle Against Evil and Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Tongues, and attribute boosts) that I wouldn't allow it unless the other players were all Tier 1.

But what does your DM think about it, because that's the only person who matters for determining such things?

Divide by Zero
2010-05-04, 03:19 PM
Play a character with RHD. They count for Saint but not buy-off. Problem solved.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-04, 03:26 PM
The Saint template has an +2 LA.

How can I use the UAs LA buy off method to reduce the LA to zero?
The only way to do this is with racial HD. With LA +2 the only class levels where you're allowed to buy down a LA are at 6 and 9. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) You won't have attained character level 6 after class level 6 unless you've got at least 1 racial HD to boost your character level above your class level.

Find yourself a nonhumanoid race with 1 racial HD, or a humanoid with 2 racial HD, and you'll be able to buy off both LA. Or just accept that you can only buy off 1 LA at class level 9.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-04, 03:33 PM
If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.

If a level 6 saint picks up a LA class, he must gain 6 levels before being eligible for reduction. That means he's eligible at ECL 12 (level 10), and ECL 15 (level 14).

The counter starts at the level the LA is acquired.

Remember: LA buyoff is made to represent that as you progress, the LA is worth less. A class that assigns you +2 LA at level 6? It's worth it at level 6.

Jayabalard
2010-05-04, 03:47 PM
I agree with Person_Man; they're optional rules, and figuring out exactly how they interact is going to be up to the DM in question.

But ... it seems to me that the other option is to choose not to level to 6th level immediately after you get enough experience for it. You do have that option, do you not (or am I remembering a houserule/different game/edition)?

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-04, 03:48 PM
In that case, you're not 6th level, and don't qualify for the template.

Jayabalard
2010-05-04, 03:59 PM
In that case, you're not 6th level, and don't qualify for the template.Correct, not until you actually level to 6th level. So the question is: can you stay 5th level, continue gaining exp until you have 7k exp buffer over what you need for 6thl, advance in level level to 6th, gain the template, pay off the LA with your 7k buffer and remain 6th level, with one paid off LA and one unpaid off LA, as an ECL 7 character.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-04, 04:19 PM
So the question is: can you stay 5th level, continue gaining exp until you have 7k exp buffer over what you need for 6thl
Nope.
When a character earns enough XP, he or she attains a new character level (see Table 3–2: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits, page 22).
...
A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level. Any excess experience points are not retained.
7K XP above the amount to reach level 6 is between levels 7 and 8. That's well past the 2 levels up - 1 XP limit, even if you somehow managed to make the requirement of getting it all in a single adventure. Generally speaking, when you get enough to reach the next level you've got to spend it: either level up, buy of 1 LA (if that's within the rules), or craft something. I don't know of any other options.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-04, 04:27 PM
If a level 6 saint picks up a LA class, he must gain 6 levels before being eligible for reduction. That means he's eligible at ECL 12 (level 10), and ECL 15 (level 14).

The counter starts at the level the LA is acquired.

Remember: LA buyoff is made to represent that as you progress, the LA is worth less. A class that assigns you +2 LA at level 6? It's worth it at level 6.

Ah, very good point... a most excellent reading of RAW. I'm surprised I didn't notice that myself.

Arcane_Snowman
2010-05-04, 04:29 PM
Well, like with the rules already in place concerning the acquisition of features and "temporary" prerequisites, I'd say RAW you lose all features of the template after having spent the 7000 xp, but not the template itself, once you've regained the experience spent, you regain the features.

Mind, in an actual game, that'd be a bit silly.

Jayabalard
2010-05-04, 04:31 PM
XP Cost (XP): When you cast a spell with an XP cost, you pay that cost when you cast the spell, even if the spell fails for some reason, and your experience total is immediately reduced. According to the rules, you can never spend so much experience that you lose a level -- though you can delay gaining a level and instead keep your experience points available for spellcasting (or item creation). If you do so, you always can change your mind. That is, you can gain a new level any time you have enough experience to do so, even after delaying awhile. For example, suppose you're a 9th-level cleric, which gives you access to the commune spell, which has an XP cost of 100 XP. Your current XP total is 45,052. You have enough experience to become a 10th-level character, but if you do you won't be able to cast your commune spell because doing so would reduce your experience total to 44,952 and you'd drop back to 9th level. You can choose to delay becoming a 10th-level character until your experience total is 45,100 gp or more. Once you pass that milestone, you can add a character level. Once you make the decision to add the level, however, you're bound to the rule preventing you from spending so much XP that you lose a level.I recalled this entry; I think it's a hold over from an earlier edition. According to this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040810a), you can delay gaining the level. I'm not sure how correct this is, or if there are rules detailing the way this works.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-04, 05:09 PM
I recalled this entry; I think it's a hold over from an earlier edition. According to this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040810a), you can delay gaining the level.
Yes, you can delay leveling up -- but only by immediately spending the XP on crafting or something else. That's the only loophole in the level gain rules.

EDIT: Remember, Rules of the Game articles are specifically not the rules of the game. They're rules commentaries, with a fair sprinkling of Skip Williams's house rules.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-05-04, 08:46 PM
I wouldn't allow it unless the other players were all Tier 1.Not even Saint can save a monk or fighter in a tier-1 party. Tier 4,5 just don't cut it after the start of tier2

poor cat goddess. Those variants don't treat you well do they

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-04, 08:54 PM
Ah, very good point... a most excellent reading of RAW. I'm surprised I didn't notice that myself.

I tend to run that rule for all level adjustments.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-04, 09:14 PM
Note, the LA Buyoff counts from the time you get it.

A LA +2 character buys off at level 6. He becomes a LA +1 character. From the point his LA changes, he must wait 3 more levels (LA 1 x3) and then he can buyoff.

Same thing.

LA 0 character becomes LA +2. From the point the LA changes, you must wait 6 ECL (ECL 12) and then you can buyoff to LA +1. From there, you wait 3 ECL (ECL 15), and you can buyoff to LA +0.

Person_Man
2010-05-04, 09:18 PM
Not even Saint can save a monk or fighter in a tier-1 party. Tier 4,5 just don't cut it after the start of tier2

poor cat goddess. Those variants don't treat you well do they

I think a Saint Monk or Fighter with the right build and alternate class features could keep up with a Tier 1 party until level 8ish. You wouldn't be doing half of the cool stuff that everyone else in your party did, but the Saint's continuous Lesser Globe (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeofInvulnerabilityLesser.htm) and numerous other defenses would keep him alive. But as always, your mileage may vary.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-04, 09:53 PM
Note, the LA Buyoff counts from the time you get it.
That's not what the rules say.
Once the total of a character’s class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1. There's no mention of subsequently obtained class levels; the rules refer specifically to the total class levels.

SethFahad
2010-05-05, 10:42 PM
Ok, ok... Wha-what if..if...if..uhhhh...if..uhh.. what if I take the template when reaching level 10 or 12 or later? (must be at least level 6)

Can I buy off the levels by paying overdue 16000xp (7000+9000)?


(I'm sorry, I couldn't post yesterday...I was "bathing" with teargas...)

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 10:54 PM
Ok, ok... Wha-what if..if...if..uhhhh...if..uhh.. what if I take the template when reaching level 10 or 12 or later? (must be at least level 6)

Can I buy off the levels by paying overdue 16000xp (7000+9000)?


(I'm sorry, I couldn't post yesterday...I was "bathing" with teargas...)

Nope.

If you get the Template at level 10, then your ECL is 12 and your first buy-off (at least by RAW) is not available until 6 levels later. Your ECL would be 18 and your buy-off cost would be 19,000xp. You would become ECL 17. Three levels later, you could buy off the second ECL at a cost of 21,000xp. You would be character level 19.

A kindly DM would allow the first level of buy-off right away (at a cost of 13,000xp in the example above) and the second buy-off three levels later (at a cost of 15,000xp).

SethFahad
2010-05-05, 11:41 PM
Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.
So, catwooman's rule is off.

Hmmm...let me correct the xp amount.


Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL-1 ) × 1,000.

I'm thinking loudly:
LA+2 is eligible to pay at 6th and 9th level.
If I'm already level > than this, and then take the template I'm already both eligible for the tamplate and the LA buy off. So, if I'm 10 lvl (12ECL) I must pay 11000xp and drop to ECL11. Then I must pay an additional 10000xp and eliminate the LA. This totals 21000xp. If I had 45000xp when I reached level 10, minus 21000, I have 24000xp and I drop level....errmmm...7???...oh my GOD!!!

Something is not right. Maybe my whole concept...

I'm thinking loudly...more...:

Ok,ok this (ECL-1)x1000 rule, has effect only if I have already "paid" some LA xp penalty.

A typical drow reaching class level 6 (ECL 8) has not normal xp(15000)!!! She's got ECL8 xp (28000). That's why she can "survive" paying (ECL-1)x1000.

So if I want to make it actually work for me, I MUST advance at least one level with the LA+2 (to gather a safety-xp-"pillow/net").

Lets count again:

Suppose I'm 10 lvl and have 45000xp.
I choose to take the Saint template.
I'm now ECL 12 due to +2 LA.
In order to advance to level 11 (ECL13) I must gather 33000xp to reach 78000xp (level 13). That's 23000xp more than the normal 10000xp I needed.
I grow a big beard, and finally I reach level 11 (ECL13). I have 78000xp.
I'm paying the first LA using the "(ECL-1)x1000" rule. Amount of xp paid: 12000xp.
I have now 66000xp, I'm level 11 (ECL 12).
I'm buying the second LA off using the "(ECL-1)x1000" rule. Amount of xp paid: 11000xp.
I have now 55000xp, I'm level 11 (ECL 11).
The template LA is eliminated. Cost: 23000xp for the buy off, plus 23000xp for the obligatory level up from 10lvl to 11lvl. A sum of 46000xp.

To much huh? :smallyuk:

End of thinking.

sonofzeal
2010-05-05, 11:47 PM
Here's how I would handle acquired LA.....


You're 10th level, and take the template. You're then ECL 12. When you've got enough xp to go up to ECL 13, you can instead reduce the LA by 1 and drop to the minimum of ECL 12. Repeat until LA is gone.

SethFahad
2010-05-05, 11:52 PM
Here's how I would handle acquired LA.....


You're 10th level, and take the template. You're then ECL 12. When you've got enough xp to go up to ECL 13, you can instead reduce the LA by 1 and drop to the minimum of ECL 12. Repeat until LA is gone.

Actually it's exactly the same thing I said, compressed in 3 lines. :smallbiggrin:

sonofzeal
2010-05-05, 11:57 PM
Actually it's exactly the same thing I said, compressed in 3 lines. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, I noticed that right after I posted. :smallbiggrin:

Curmudgeon
2010-05-06, 12:04 AM
If you get the Template at level 10, then your ECL is 12 and your first buy-off (at least by RAW) is not available until 6 levels later.
That's not what the rules say. If you have LA of +2, your only options for reduction are at class levels 6 and 9. As these have already passed, you're out of luck.
Once the total of a character's subsequent class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.
...
If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0.
...
Each time a character's level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction.
Notice the strikeout in "subsequent"? That's because it's not in the rules. You can only make your initial LA reduction at class levels equal to 3x your LA. Later reductions use this starting point as their base, but the first one isn't variable depending on when you obtained your level adjustment.

Superglucose
2010-05-06, 12:15 AM
I think how I'd rule it:

"You level up to 6 and acquire the Saint template. You make your EXP payment and drop to level 5, and lose benefits of the saint template until you are level 6 again."

It's just like if you have Power Attack and get, say, Ennervated down to a strength of 6. It's not like you magically lose the feat forevar, it's more like "in a few minutes I'll be able to use that feat again."

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-06, 12:21 AM
By a strict RAW reading, you are correct Curmudgeon...

But would you really deny someone paying more XP than normal, just because they either 1) Acquired the template late, 2) Forgot the level buy-off, or 3) Didn't know about the rule until too late?

Curmudgeon
2010-05-06, 12:33 AM
Yes, I would strictly follow the rules here, because not following them would disallow some LA reduction benefits. For instance, these rules allow starting with an initial LA of +1, buying that off at level 3, and then acquiring an additional LA of +2 between levels 3 and 6 and then buying that off at levels 6 and 9; the total cost is much lower than waiting to start LA reduction at the LA +3 schedule. Any switch to a LA buyoff schedule based on class levels subsequent to the LA acquisition would greatly increase the LA reduction cost for acquired LA.

Changing the rules to benefit one specific acquired template with LA is going to mess up other things quite a bit.

sonofzeal
2010-05-06, 12:40 AM
Yes, I would strictly follow the rules here, because not following them would disallow some LA reduction benefits. For instance, these rules allow starting with an initial LA of +1, buying that off at level 3, and then acquiring an additional LA of +2 between levels 3 and 6 and then buying that off at levels 6 and 9; the total cost is much lower than waiting to start LA reduction at the LA +3 schedule. Any switch to a LA buyoff schedule based on class levels subsequent to the LA acquisition would greatly increase the LA reduction cost for acquired LA.

Changing the rules to benefit one specific acquired template with LA is going to mess up other things quite a bit.
I think the problem here is that the LA Buyoff rules seem to assume inherent LA without considering acquired LA. Any solution is going to be a bit awkward, then.

I think you're overestimating the difference though. LA-buyoff generally involves hitting the next level and "spending" it to reduce the LA instead of progressing your actual class level. As such, however your hypothetical +1/+2 character does it, he "repeats" three levels in the course of his career. Given that xp gains scale with level, and the whole xp-is-a-river thing, I don't think it makes a huge difference either way.

SethFahad
2010-05-06, 12:51 AM
hmmm... maybe I wasn't thinking loudly enough....:smallsigh: