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Private-Prinny
2010-05-04, 04:45 PM
I want to build one, but I don't have much experience with the Tome of Battle. I know a 2 level Monk dip would be great for the bonus feats, but I don't know what maneuvers, feats, or Prestige Classes to take.

Any tips?

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 04:55 PM
I want to build one, but I don't have much experience with the Tome of Battle. I know a 2 level Monk dip would be great for the bonus feats, but I don't know what maneuvers, feats, or Prestige Classes to take.

Any tips?

Well, decide on stat focus.


Str Attack+Dex+Wis á la Monk? No feats, better roll high stats.
Dex Attack+Wis? Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse.
Wis Attack+Dex? Intuitive Attack [BoED], Stunning Fist, Insightful Strike-ability. Note that Insightful Strike is a nice secondary damage source even outside Wis-focus but here it becomes the main focus.

They all play out differently; Wis-attack uses lots of Wis-based Save-or-X maneuvers and multi-attack strikes (you'll probably want Insightful Strike in Diamond Mind), Dex-attack is great with Setting Sun-throws and plain attacking, while Str-attack is normal melee combatant but won't get as strong as either stat focus due to lacking ability to focus on any single stat to improve everything.

Other feats: Snap Kick is rather useful, as is Improved Natural Attack (just like with Monk). It's worth considering Ironheart Aura -> Stormguard Warrior (with Warblade-dip) for some scary flurry kills and yeah, Improved Trip if you go Setting Sun, Stunning Fist is great in Wis-focus builds and maybe some School-related feats. Really, there are lots of options. Sun School from Complete Warrior can be quite nice with Snap Kick and Shadow X-maneuvers. Empty Hand Mastery-line is worth going for from Oriental Adventures if you plan on flurrying and increasing your die size.


Good dips:
- Barbarian for Pounce and maybe Whirling Frenzy (especially in Wis-focus; Bounding Assault from Diamond Mind means you get your full attacks with Wis added to the damage). Level 2 Improved Trip for free without prerequisites doesn't hurt either. Good Fort doesn't hurt.
- Monk, as you stated. Dex-focus and Wis-focus can make decent use of the Flurry, the bonus feats are useful to everyone and Good Fort is always nice. Note that without fractional BAB, the medium BAB here sucks; probably loses you a point in the long run.
- Warblade, for cheap qualification to Stormguard Warrior, and some nice Ironheart or White Raven-maneuvers. Good Fort, again.

That's about it off the top of my head. Keep it to couple of dip-levels as you'll want higher level SS abilities here. Psychic Warrior and Ardent are good options, but not as dips, since you'll want Power Points and high-level Powers to make them work, so for a Swordsage-focus, they don't fly.


Prestige Classes aren't really amazing; you may want to consider Master of the Nine if you qualify and feel like it, but beyond that, I wouldn't really bother; few advance maneuvers and are as good as high-level SS abilities outside short dips. Shiba Protector [Oriental Adventures] gains Wis-focused attacks and is worth considering.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-04, 05:05 PM
Wisdom Focus seems like a good idea. I should mention a few things, though.

32-point buy.
Allowed material is core + completes, as well as the ToB, but the other stuff is on a case by case basis.
I'll probably focus on Setting Sun and Tiger Claw, but I'll be sure to pick up some of the Diamond Mind stuff.

Greenish
2010-05-04, 05:07 PM
Other feats: Snap Kick is rather useful, as is Improved Natural Attack (just like with Monk).Do you mean Superior Unarmed Strike, perhaps?

Also, you probably want Adaptive Style.

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 05:11 PM
Wisdom Focus seems like a good idea. I should mention a few things, though.

32-point buy.
Allowed material is core + completes, as well as the ToB, but the other stuff is on a case by case basis.
I'll probably focus on Setting Sun and Tiger Claw, but I'll be sure to pick up some of the Diamond Mind stuff.

Setting Sun isn't all that amazing for Wis-focus as they're Str-or-Dex derived, while Shadow Hand has plenty of Wis-based saving throws so I suggest cutting the Setting Sun-part a bit smaller (as a Swordsage, you can still afford it tho), though if your Dex is decent, you can still use it to a decent effect especially with Improved Trip, thanks to the natural bonuses the maneuvers grant to your checks.

Also, definitely pick up Mountain Hammer from Stone Dragon; how else do you think martial artists smash a dozen bricks? It's just a must, and oh-so-infinitely-useful. "Why walk this corridor when we can just go through that wall? Give me a moment."


For Wisdom-focus, you need Intuitive Attack. So beg/cry/whine/whatever your DM for that; nothing else matters from other sources, but no Intuitive Attack = no Wisdom-focus. Monk-dip is decent for Tiger Claw with Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay) to gain Improved Trip on the second level for your Setting Sun (may want e.g. Stunning Fist on the first; you can mix-and-match and as you never get 6 levels, that costs you nothing). If you don't use Fractionals though, I definitely suggest the Barbarian-dip.

Also, if you want skills, Martial Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) 2 is a fine dip, with the same "needs Fractional BAB"-clause. Comes with two feats and yeah.

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 05:12 PM
Do you mean Superior Unarmed Strike, perhaps?

No, Improved Natural Attack is better in the end. Though you may want both, but INA increases get bigger than SUS quite fast.


Also, you probably want Adaptive Style.

Yeah, this. Forgot to mention it.

Tinydwarfman
2010-05-04, 05:12 PM
Do you mean Superior Unarmed Strike, perhaps?

Also, you probably want Adaptive Style.

Why wouldn't he mean Improved Nat. Attack? It gives about the same bonus as Superior Unarmed Strike, but if you increase size categories even more then it gets exponentially better.

Greenish
2010-05-04, 05:19 PM
Why wouldn't he mean Improved Nat. Attack? It gives about the same bonus as Superior Unarmed Strike, but if you increase size categories even more then it gets exponentially better.I thought for some reason that Unarmed Strikes were not natural attacks. Oh well.

Thespianus
2010-05-04, 05:19 PM
Why wouldn't he mean Improved Nat. Attack? It gives about the same bonus as Superior Unarmed Strike, but if you increase size categories even more then it gets exponentially better.

Because a normal character (human, dwarf, etc) doesn't have a natural weapon, only unarmed attacks? An unarmed attack is not a natural weapon.

For example:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a


Before we move on, it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons.

Thespianus
2010-05-04, 05:21 PM
I thought for some reason that Unarmed Strikes were not natural attacks. Oh well.
Stand your ground, man! (or woman) You're in the right. :)

Private-Prinny
2010-05-04, 05:21 PM
Because a normal character (human, dwarf, etc) doesn't have a natural weapon, only unarmed attacks? An unarmed attack is not a natural weapon.

For example:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

Scroll down.
Monk Unarmed Strike Class Feature

This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage.

Thespianus
2010-05-04, 05:22 PM
Scroll down.

DOh! I.. I was so sure... :(

The Dark Fiddler
2010-05-04, 05:23 PM
Because a normal character (human, dwarf, etc) doesn't have a natural weapon, only unarmed attacks? An unarmed attack is not a natural weapon.

For example:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

Common houserule that it applies though.

And I don't think there's actually anything in the rulebooks saying unarmed attacks aren't natural attacks.

Edit: Oh, and what Private said.

Greenish
2010-05-04, 05:27 PM
Stand your ground, man! (or woman) You're in the right. :)Know when to fold 'em (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnowWhenToFoldEm). :smallamused:

Private-Prinny
2010-05-04, 05:29 PM
Dex Focus it is. So, just to see if I've got everything down, I need Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, Snap Kick and Improved Natural Attack are both very good, and the schools to focus on are Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, & Shadow Hand?

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 05:34 PM
Dex Focus it is. So, just to see if I've got everything down, I need Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, Snap Kick and Improved Natural Attack are both very good, and the schools to focus on are Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, & Shadow Hand?

Shadow Hand is mainly for Wis-focus; you can use some Shadow Hand, but Setting Sun and Tiger Claw (and Diamond Mind; it's an awesome school you should never skip) are main for Dex-focus. Particularly Setting Sun. Also, don't skip out on Desert Wind entirely; it has some goodies and the X Blade maneuvers are absolutely brutal when you face an opponent without Fire Immunity/Resistance 30 so it's worth keeping one around so you can switch 'em in with Adaptive Style when appropriate.

Other than that, pack a nice mix of counters (Setting Sun in particular is famous for these, and Desert Wind and Shadow Hand have good ones too), mobility (Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw, Desert Wind & Shadow Hand) and attacks (both, full attacks and single attacks so you can use what's appropriate). Overall, be versatile; that's what Swordsages do. Pick stuff you can see yourself using in different scenarios, max appropriate skills and be awesome.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-04, 05:41 PM
So I should dabble in everything, but make sure I have some good focus in Setting Sun? Sounds good to me. Any particular maneuvers that are generally considered good? And I need to keep a few Shadow Hand stances on hand. Island of Blades seems like a good first choice.

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 05:43 PM
So I should dabble in everything, but make sure I have some good focus in Setting Sun? Sounds good to me. Any particular maneuvers that are generally considered good? And I need to keep a few Shadow Hand stances on hand. Island of Blades seems like a good first choice.

Child of Shadow, Island of Blades, etc. And dabbling is up to you; just check maneuvers which interest you. I'd probably pick up all 6 schools to some degree as an SS though. Yeah, Setting Sun Counters and Throws are great for you, so definitely pick those up.

You'll want some "mundanely aggressive school" like Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw for your basic attack needs; Diamond Mind has a bit more versatile offense suite, but you'll probably do just fine with Tiger Claw as it packs quite the punch, especially with multiple attacks; you'll probably want the Monk-dip if going that route.

And...yeah.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-04, 05:55 PM
Thanks for all of your help. I just have a couple more questions.

Is the Wisdom->AC an untyped bonus (does it stack with itself)?
If I go with a Martial Rogue dip, do I get Improved Evasion instead at SS9?

Eldariel
2010-05-04, 05:58 PM
Is the Wisdom->AC an untyped bonus (does it stack with itself)?

Untyped bonus, but generally Wis To AC-abilities like Monk's and Ninja's and such don't stack so sensibly, this wouldn't stack with them either. That is, it stacks with other AC bonuses, but not with itself. Nothing stacks with itself, really.


If I go with a Martial Rogue dip, do I get Improved Evasion instead at SS9?

No. Only Uncanny Dodge improves like that.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-04, 06:02 PM
Thanks for all of the tips. I finally have a good idea of what I should do with this.:smallbiggrin: