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Raistlin1040
2010-05-04, 10:01 PM
In a few levels, my players are going to be confronted with a curious scenerio. Unless the party manages to uncover the plot (which seems highly unlikely) their Demon and Devil captors, among them Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Orcus, Graz'zt, and Demogorgon, are going to have their powers drained away by the Archfiend Lucifer, come back to the Lower Planes to claim full ownership. The Archfiend, of course, is going to be stupidly powerful, so he's not an issue for now. Weakening "mook" fiends is also pretty easy, halving the CR of a standard Demon/Devil by taking attribute points and removing some special attacks and such.

However, when dealing with creatures that have CRs up in the high 20s/low 30s range, it becomes much harder to accurately bring them down to party level. I still want them to be a challenge, even for a high level party (I want each of them to be in the upper teens, still), but be comparatively much weaker. How can this be easily accomplished?

Mystic Muse
2010-05-04, 10:05 PM
Why exactly have demons and devils teamed up now?

and what CR is Lucifer? I don't think I've ever seen him in a D&D book.

The Tygre
2010-05-04, 10:09 PM
1.) One word: Aspects. The Demons and Devils your players are confronting are just Aspects, clones, Doom-bots, decoys, etc. That way, you can still have the exact same fiends, but they're only around the CR 15-18 range, maybe even lower if you want.

2.) I too am curious where you found d20 stats for Lucifer.

Raistlin1040
2010-05-04, 10:10 PM
They haven't. The party (not in their best judgement) escaped the final layer of Hell, in order to align themselves with Demons in the Blood War, only to realize after the first day, when their tank was killed, that maybe it wasn't such a good idea. They're now making their way back to the Hells with the aid of a Fallen Cleric. Either way, they'll be owned by Demons or Devils.

And no, Lucifer has no CR because he hasn't been statted. I'm going to end up homebrewing him, if it looks like he might be directly engaged by the party.

Godskook
2010-05-04, 10:29 PM
Dumb down a pit fiend or balor(or nearest analog for the more exotic ones) a little and then add flavorful adjustments to make them unique? I'm AFB, but that seems like it'd be easiest.

Iamyourking
2010-05-04, 10:31 PM
Are you joking? Half the stuff in the ELH is more powerful than the pathetic stats the official books give for Archfiends. Use the Dicefreaks stats instead.

Raistlin1040
2010-05-04, 10:34 PM
We're not going Epic, and when the party may be fighting Archfiends, they'll be around level 15-18.

The Tygre
2010-05-04, 10:34 PM
Are you joking? Half the stuff in the ELH is more powerful than the pathetic stats the official books give for Archfiends. Use the Dicefreaks stats instead.

Down, Mr. King. We're scaling -down-.

Iamyourking
2010-05-04, 10:36 PM
I know, the whole concept is so blatantly ridiculous I just have trouble believing it.

Prodan
2010-05-04, 11:00 PM
How can this be easily accomplished?

Fiddling contest.

Raistlin1040
2010-05-04, 11:03 PM
Actually, Race with the Devil by Judas Priest came up on my shuffle today, and I briefly considered that (and similarily ridiculous options).

CrypticOcean
2010-05-04, 11:06 PM
I always found it amusing that the Bel listed in the Fiendish Codex II actually has overall worse statistics and natural attacks than the typical Pit Fiend listed in the Monster Manual.

I am assuming that even the powered-down version in the Fiendish Codices are too powerful for the party? If so, I believe they list a way to empower the Aspects into true Archfiend and Demon Prince status. Perhaps if that process was simply reversed it would yield the results your desire?

But, then again, that might render them a bit too enfeebled.

I would agree Godskook and just try to make modified versions of Pit Fiends and Balors. That is essentially what the Archfiends and Demon Princes are supposed to be regardless, according to the Fiendish Codices. Fancy, special Pit Fiends and Balors that decided to look different(with the exception of the Obyrith Demon Lords/Princes.)

The Tygre
2010-05-04, 11:10 PM
I know, the whole concept is so blatantly ridiculous I just have trouble believing it.

I know. They scare me too. Poor fools. Living in their world where arch-fiends don't have triple-digit CRs. Never to know the endless hours days weeks of work that go into crafting those monsters so they can do a little something called the 'Macro-TPK'. But for the moment, let's play along.

Runestar
2010-05-04, 11:26 PM
I always found it amusing that the Bel listed in the Fiendish Codex II actually has overall worse statistics and natural attacks than the typical Pit Fiend listed in the Monster Manual.

I actually thought he was more powerful than your typical pit fiend. He does have worse AC and overall worse arsenal of SLAs, but is more brutish in that his melee capabilities seem more effective.

Maybe it is just the nature of high lv gameplay to favour magic over melee. :smallannoyed:

Binks
2010-05-04, 11:49 PM
Fiddling contest.
A chance for the bard to shine! :smalltongue:

CrypticOcean
2010-05-04, 11:49 PM
I actually thought he was more powerful than your typical pit fiend. He does have worse AC and overall worse arsenal of SLAs, but is more brutish in that his melee capabilities seem more effective.

Maybe it is just the nature of high lv gameplay to favour magic over melee. :smallannoyed:

True, Bel does have a more versitile arsenal of magick on-hand, and slightly improved DCs on his poison and disease, but his overall melee options are just barely superior to a normal Pit Fiend, and he seems to have traded his Wish away. Perhaps that aided him in becoming Archduke? Plus, the DCs for his unique spell-like abilities (DC 20 for Hold Person. Not Monster, but Person.) are laughable. It is a shame, because Bel happens to be my favourite Archduke. I know, strange, but I just find him quite grand.

Although on a point for point basis, Bel's ability scores are just marginally better. I shall put his in paranthesis next to the normal Pit Fiend's just for a comparison.

Str-37(38)
Dex-27(15)
Con-27(30)
Int-26(27)
Wis-26(27)
Cha-26(25)

His natural attacks, likewise, are pitiful compared to a normal Pit Fiend's. I know he has that +3 Large Flaming Greatsword, but the only edge it has over the typical Pit Fiend's bite is that it has a broader crit-range.

Claws-2d8(1d6)
Bite-4d6(1d8)
2 Wings-2d6(1d6)
Tail-2d8(1d8)
Constrict-2d8(1d8)

Even his natural armour is 3 points lower than his (comparatively) mundane counterparts. It just seems wrong that the differences should be so large, and that the two should have the same CR.

...So, I suppose you could use Bel as a base on how to weaken Archfiends, yet add some nifty spell-like abilties to keep them feeling powerful...with some modification, of course..

Divide by Zero
2010-05-05, 12:06 AM
This thread has convinced me to play a harvester devil bard.

Raistlin1040
2010-05-05, 02:00 PM
Yes, Bel has been unfairly shafted by the world. I don't have the Fiend Codices, for everyone who's mentioned them. My current UberFiend stats come from the BoVD.

Runestar
2010-05-06, 05:48 AM
I am now comparing Bel's stats in FC2 against that of a typical pit fiend, and I must admit, Bel is looking more and more crappy by the moment.

While Bel has more hp (319 to a pit fiend's 225) and slightly better dr, his AC is 5 points lower (ring of prot+4 excludes unholy aura), so he isn't really any better off, IMO.

His SLAs are weird. I see no reason why the designers gave a cr20 npc dispel magic (which caps at +10). You won't be able to dispel anything from a lv20 party ever! Wall of fire??? Hold person?!? I guess if you wanted the monk's capstone to actually seem useful...:smallfrown:

His summons are stronger (I suppose this is what compensates) since he can bring in twice as many horned devils to harry the PCs.

Maybe he is supposed to represent stealth errata on what a pit fiend should be, rather than just another spellcaster with more hp and better AC? :smalltongue:

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-06, 07:38 AM
Well, Bel is just one of the Bosses of the Layer. Shouldn't come he along with his daughter Fierna?

Moreover, if you need it, you can just pimp him, there are guidelines in FCI to pimp archfiends. I guess they can be useful for the OP as a start, exspecially about SR and such things.

Op, you should definitively take FC as guidelines, or at least, compare a demon prince from BoVD with a pimped one from Dragon Magazine.

Finally, remember that the true power of a Duke is political. We are not in the Abyss, ladies and gentlemen.

Furnok
2010-05-06, 07:45 AM
I actually found stats for Lucifer once, but I am currently at work and I cant remember where I found it when I get home later tonight I will try to dig it up. If I remember correctly he had 2-3 very unique abilities and I think he was a CR36.

Runestar
2010-05-06, 07:49 AM
Moreover, if you need it, you can just pimp him, there are guidelines in FCI to pimp archfiends. I guess they can be useful for the OP as a start, exspecially about SR and such things.


Seems I am just better off advancing a normal pitfiend. I would eventually end up with superior stats for the same cr. :smalltongue:

Raistlin1040
2010-05-06, 04:53 PM
Well, Bel is just one of the Bosses of the Layer. Shouldn't come he along with his daughter Fierna?

Moreover, if you need it, you can just pimp him, there are guidelines in FCI to pimp archfiends. I guess they can be useful for the OP as a start, exspecially about SR and such things.

Op, you should definitively take FC as guidelines, or at least, compare a demon prince from BoVD with a pimped one from Dragon Magazine.

Finally, remember that the true power of a Duke is political. We are not in the Abyss, ladies and gentlemen.

That's Belial. Bel is the Lord of the First. Belial and Fierna are the Lord and Lady of the Fourth, IIRC.

Iamyourking
2010-05-06, 05:43 PM
Finally, remember that the true power of a Duke is political. We are not in the Abyss, ladies and gentlemen.

And you should remember that a Duke is far from the highest rank in Hell and certainly not the rank of Bael or any of the Lords of the Nine.
How do you think that the Peers of Peredition got to where they are in the first place? You don't seriously think that Bael could be the most succesful general in Hell if he could have been assassinated by two Balors do you? Or how about how each of them killed hundreds of Pit Fiends during the Dies Irae, even stripped of their titles?

CrypticOcean
2010-05-06, 06:04 PM
How do you think that the Peers of Peredition got to where they are in the first place? You don't seriously think that Bael could be the most succesful general in Hell if he could have been assassinated by two Balors do you? Or how about how each of them killed hundreds of Pit Fiends during the Dies Irae, even stripped of their titles?

Agreed. Even the mere Aspect of Bel should be leaps and bounds ahead of a typical Pit Fiend. Bel has almost non-existent political sway in Baator, which just gives him even more reason to be more combat-proficient. He is stuck fighting the Blood War on a daily basis, and he is kept around solely for that fact. I am sure Bel is as intelligent and crafty as the next Archduke, but even he knows that his continued ruling of Avernus is based solely on his performance in the Blood War. He can have his plots on the side, sure, but Bel first and foremost is a warrior, and a Duke afterwards.

Sydonai
2010-05-06, 06:53 PM
I actually found stats for Lucifer once, but I am currently at work and I cant remember where I found it when I get home later tonight I will try to dig it up. If I remember correctly he had 2-3 very unique abilities and I think he was a CR36.

There is a version or two of Lucifer/MorningStar in "The Book of Hell" by Mongoose Publishing, Along with many other disturbing fiends.

The Tygre
2010-05-06, 09:42 PM
Agreed. Even the mere Aspect of Bel should be leaps and bounds ahead of a typical Pit Fiend. Bel has almost non-existent political sway in Baator, which just gives him even more reason to be more combat-proficient. He is stuck fighting the Blood War on a daily basis, and he is kept around solely for that fact. I am sure Bel is as intelligent and crafty as the next Archduke, but even he knows that his continued ruling of Avernus is based solely on his performance in the Blood War. He can have his plots on the side, sure, but Bel first and foremost is a warrior, and a Duke afterwards.

Agreed. Bael gets by on three things in Baatorian politics;

1.) Asmodeus' good will. For some reason that no one else can figure out, Asmodeus handpicked Bael to be the new Lord of the First. That's enough for most people
2.) Veterancy. Bael is Hell's frontline defense. He's proved that he's allowed a say in a thing or two.
3.) Fear. If Bael quits his job, Hell's gates are left standing wide open and its armies without a general. All of Hell's defenses and military might will fall to whatever armies and militia the other Archdevils contribute, at least until Asmodeus picks a new Lord of the First. And that's all the time Heaven and the Abyss need to move. And more importantly, nobody mistrust Archdevils more than other Archdevils.

Raistlin1040
2010-05-06, 11:06 PM
Bel also has support among the Dark 8 and a large portion of the Blood War Army. Nothing compared to the support of another Archdevil, or course, but a contributing factor.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-07, 01:39 AM
That's Belial. Bel is the Lord of the First. Belial and Fierna are the Lord and Lady of the Fourth, IIRC.

I was in rush.. I intended Belial. :smallredface:

But the rest of my point remains, as well as the criticisms thereafter

Runestar
2010-05-07, 03:11 AM
I think it is perfectly acceptable for Bel's aspect to be weaker than its pit fiend (a cr8-9 version does exist somewhere). My contention was that it was too weak to justify its cr of 20, using a pit fiend as a point of comparison (and I am thinking that a pit fiend is not really strong enough to merit a cr20 either, somewhere between cr17-18 max). :smallsmile:

Ingus
2010-05-07, 05:13 AM
Back to the topic, I guess Raistlin can use Fiendish Codex to help scaling down the Archfiends. Still, they keep being out of reach for a 15/18 level party.

You can try to think to something different. Maybe a plot issue to scale down fiend Powers. Let's say... Lucifer, in order to take back his place, deprives his counterparts of evil power. So, the Archfiends when the PC encounter them are without spells, spell like abilities and supernatural abilities (i.e. no DR, no SR, no immunities, no resistences). If you want to scale down again, reduce saves and transform their equipment in non magical.
Lastly, let your party meet them when isolated. In my mind, Asmodeus goes around with a court of bodyguards (several Pit Fiends), heralds (Incubi/Succubi) a counseilor (unique fiend) and all sort of lackeys (various devils). So, if you scale down archfiends, you should probabily scale down demons and devils too or think out a very good reason to make your party take them alone.

Not to mention that with a party of 15's, you still risk a TPK even with a weakened balor.

@Furnok: I'm curious to have the link.