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Saint GoH
2010-05-05, 12:48 AM
I want my players to encounter an NPC - a recurring BBEG if you will - that is actually a dragon in disguise. Any color that is particularly suited to subterfuge and trickery? Or could any dragon with a viable motive suffice?

Occasional Sage
2010-05-05, 12:53 AM
I want my players to encounter an NPC - a recurring BBEG if you will - that is actually a dragon in disguise. Any color that is particularly suited to subterfuge and trickery? Or could any dragon with a viable motive suffice?

Dragon colors come with stereotypes, but who cares? They're rare enough and powerful enough that each one you place in your campaign ought to be as 3D as any BBEG, even if the dragon is just a cameo. Do what you want!

WildPyre
2010-05-05, 12:55 AM
I'd go with Blue Dragon. Their alignment (LE) and attitude seems to be more in tune with this type of deception, along with they're special ability of mimicing any sound or voice they've heard.

Eldariel
2010-05-05, 12:57 AM
Honestly, Humanoid Form is naturally available (hence all the Half-Dragons) and they have access to magic and infinite skills; what more do you really need? Any color should do.

Serpentine
2010-05-05, 01:04 AM
What about one of the more obscurish ones, like the Shadow Dragon or Hex Dragon? The latter, in particular, can be quite a diabolical sort.

ghost_warlock
2010-05-05, 01:10 AM
Really screw with them and make it a half-fiendish gold dragon.

Saint GoH
2010-05-05, 01:10 AM
I was actually thinking Chaos Dragon. Shifting colors, random breath weps. Could be good. Are Hex dragons statted anywhere? Shadow may also be awesome....

As for Half-Dragons, I didn't read anywhere they could assume human form. Maybe a Half Succubus Half Dragon? Or something equally diabolical with class levels...

CrypticOcean
2010-05-05, 01:17 AM
I'd go with Blue Dragon. Their alignment (LE) and attitude seems to be more in tune with this type of deception, along with they're special ability of mimicing any sound or voice they've heard.

Actually, the Blue Dragons are generally depicted as being more tyrannical, straightforward, and honourable type. True, they do like to befuddle adventurers in the desert for amusement, but overall they are described as being more of the plotting Overlord type, rather than the sneaky, underhanded, deceptive type.

Green Dragons share the LE alignment with their Blue-scaled brethren, but are much more insidious and two-faced. Black Dragons are also equally malignant, and prefer to lure their prey in close before striking when they are vulnerable (in more ways than one, of course).

Of course, the concept of a non-primordial creature's alignment and personality being dictated by the colour of its scales has always seemed rather silly to me. But, just about any Evil dragon has the brain power, the mystical might, and the force of personality to fill the position you are describing. Although it would be interesting to throw one of the obscure dragons at them (as Serpentine mentioned).

WildPyre
2010-05-05, 01:18 AM
The only dragon in the basic MM with the ability to assume an alternate form as an ability would be a "Young" or older Bronze Dragon. The other dragons would need to use their sorcerer spells or a magic item to achieve the effect.

Though it's often rule 0'ed that dragons can assume a human form.

CrypticOcean
2010-05-05, 01:20 AM
I am quite certain that Bronze, Gold, and Silver are all capable of changing into a humanoid form. If not Gold, at the very least, Bronze and Silver are, since it often espouses how much those two love interacting with humanity.

Eldariel
2010-05-05, 01:22 AM
I am quite certain that Bronze, Gold, and Silver are all capable of changing into a humanoid form. If not Gold, at the very least, Bronze and Silver are, since it often espouses how much those two love interacting with humanity.

All three are, yes. I remembered wrong; I remembered Chromatics had that ability too. And Brasses and Coppers don't have it either. But c'est la vie. Well, what would shapechanging magic be for otherwise, eh?

WildPyre
2010-05-05, 01:25 AM
Actually, the Blue Dragons are generally depicted as being more tyrannical, straightforward, and honourable type. True, they do like to befuddle adventurers in the desert for amusement, but overall they are described as being more of the plotting Overlord type, rather than the sneaky, underhanded, deceptive type.

Green Dragons share the LE alignment with their Blue-scaled brethren, but are much more insidious and two-faced. Black Dragons are also equally malignant, and prefer to lure their prey in close before striking when they are vulnerable (in more ways than one, of course).

Of course, the concept of a non-primordial creature's alignment and personality being dictated by the colour of its scales has always seemed rather silly to me. But, just about any Evil dragon has the brain power, the mystical might, and the force of personality to fill the position you are describing. Although it would be interesting to throw one of the obscure dragons at them (as Serpentine mentioned).

Green dragons are stated, in the MM, "beligerant and tend to attack without provocation.

I will agree that a black dragon would be another good choice though... all depends on the nature of the facade.

All in all, I'm not a huge fan of the dragon's attitude being mandated by it's color myself... I'm not even fond of their powers being mandated by their color.

WildPyre
2010-05-05, 01:30 AM
I am quite certain that Bronze, Gold, and Silver are all capable of changing into a humanoid form. If not Gold, at the very least, Bronze and Silver are, since it often espouses how much those two love interacting with humanity.

Bronze gains Alternate Form at Young...

Gold gets it at birth...

Silver gets it at birth...

Brass and Copper do not get it, nor do the cromatic ones.

CrypticOcean
2010-05-05, 01:32 AM
True, but a scenario within the Monster Manual itself details an encounter with a Green Dragon running along the lines of the dragon demanding tribute for safe passage, taking the tribute, and then coming back later to slaughter the tribute-payers to take the rest of their things.

But, I suppose that whole line of action only seems like an insidious plot because the "trespassers" are rather doomed either way.

And while scale-colour is not exactly the best way to determine a dragon's powers, I suppose colour-coding them for easy reference does expedite the process of deciding which dragon best thwarts any type of party (or one with abilities that would be easily thwarted by aforementioned party.)

Saint GoH
2010-05-05, 01:33 AM
I guess I had just assumed it... Curses. This may complicate matters.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 01:35 AM
Gold & Silver Dragons get Alternate Form at birth (Wyrmling).

Of course, a Dragon with class levels of Dragonfire Adept could get the Humanoid Form Invocation. :smallbiggrin:

WildPyre
2010-05-05, 01:36 AM
I guess I had just assumed it... Curses. This may complicate matters.

I doubt anyone would call BS if the DM had a cromatic dragon change shape... I know I wouldn't.

CrypticOcean
2010-05-05, 01:39 AM
Indeed. They are Dragons for Dagon's sake. If all of the True Dragons cannot shape-change freely, then who can? It is an insult to dragonkind, I daresay!

taltamir
2010-05-05, 01:42 AM
you could give your chromatic dragon alternate form... I wouldn't mind as a player.

Or you can have an evil gold dragon... they are sentient beings not constructs.

Lord of Syntax
2010-05-05, 01:47 AM
Use mercury dragons. Win.

Saint GoH
2010-05-05, 01:59 AM
Thought about Mercury Dragon... But I have made my decision.

Hex Dragon. Is. Amazing. And while there is something to be said for stereo-typing colors, I have already had a player flip out because a gold dragon was evil. But the Hex Dragon fits like a glove.

Thanks Serpentine for the suggestions!

WildPyre
2010-05-05, 02:04 AM
And while there is something to be said for stereo-typing colors, I have already had a player flip out because a gold dragon was evil.

This makes me want to have an evil dragon disguise itself as a gold dragon in my game.

"Don't worry guys, we can trust him... he's a gold dragon after all."

Thurbane
2010-05-05, 02:21 AM
Deep Dragon is another that gets Shape Change as an innate ability (Humanoid form from Young onwards).

Jinn Master
2010-05-05, 02:56 AM
Keep in mind that dragons can swallow a magic item in order to use it.

Catch
2010-05-05, 02:59 AM
Since it hasn't been posted, Rich himself created a very sneaky dragon for the Gaming section of the website a while back, and you can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/U2hDQPsRjbwSamZsbE7.html).

WildPyre
2010-05-05, 03:36 AM
Since it hasn't been posted, Rich himself created a very sneaky dragon for the Gaming section of the website a while back, and you can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/U2hDQPsRjbwSamZsbE7.html).

Looking that over... and I hate to say this what with it being Rich's site and all... but if I was playing and the dragon added sneak attack damage to all of his attacks, I'd call foul. Sneak attack damage is normally only added to the first attack IIRC.

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 03:54 AM
Looking that over... and I hate to say this what with it being Rich's site and all... but if I was playing and the dragon added sneak attack damage to all of his attacks, I'd call foul. Sneak attack damage is normally only added to the first attack IIRC.

What? No, it's not. It's added whenever you would qual for SA damage.

Make bloody sure you boost your dragon's touch AC, or it will be a short fight if they ever meet him or her.

Eldariel
2010-05-05, 03:55 AM
Looking that over... and I hate to say this what with it being Rich's site and all... but if I was playing and the dragon added sneak attack damage to all of his attacks, I'd call foul. Sneak attack damage is normally only added to the first attack IIRC.

You may be thinking AD&D there. In 3.5, you add SA to damage always when you qualify for it.

EDIT: Docjad.

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 06:55 AM
And while there is something to be said for stereo-typing colors, I have already had a player flip out because a gold dragon was evil.

This is one of the many reasons why I use Eberron as my primary setting.

"BUT BUT GOLD DRAGONS ARE NOBLE."
"Not all of them---not even most of them."

Oslecamo
2010-05-05, 07:06 AM
This is one of the many reasons why I use Eberron as my primary setting.

"BUT BUT GOLD DRAGONS ARE NOBLE."
"Not all of them---not even most of them."

Actualy, by Eberron's standards, all dragons are quite noble. All they do is sit in some isolated islands and have philosophical discussions all day long while gloating on how powerfull they are.

Compare with the main order of paladins in that setting that is basically the spanish inquisition in D&D. Indeed, dragons are quite noble in that land. it just happens that in Eberron noble/good means "filthy reach dude wich likes to show off":smalltongue:

Kish
2010-05-05, 08:05 AM
And while there is something to be said for stereo-typing colors,
It has to be said, because it's unprintable?

BadJuJu
2010-05-05, 09:02 AM
This makes me want to have an evil dragon disguise itself as a gold dragon in my game.

"Don't worry guys, we can trust him... he's a gold dragon after all."

Done it. Had a Red Dragon pose as a white. When the party showed up with Protection from Cold and fire spells out the wazu, they were very upset when the fireball did nada and the "white" drasgon shot a cone of fire.

Amiel
2010-05-05, 10:14 AM
Since it's your campaign, you can pretty much design the dragons however you like (probably within reason; you want to aim for internal consistency and verisimilitude).

You could give all dragons (metallic and chromatic) access to Alternate Form; you could have the dragon act out of character, very in character or any of the above, to manipulate the characters into a mind screw, intrigue or subterfuge.

Of course, there's also the option of increasing their (abysmal) Dex; say within the realm of 16~20 or thereabouts. Imagine the shock on the player's faces.
Also, you could have the dragon take class levels; Rogue immediately springs to mind.

Serpentine
2010-05-05, 10:17 AM
Thought about Mercury Dragon... But I have made my decision.

Hex Dragon. Is. Amazing. And while there is something to be said for stereo-typing colors, I have already had a player flip out because a gold dragon was evil. But the Hex Dragon fits like a glove.

Thanks Serpentine for the suggestions!Yay! ^_^ You found it, then? Dragon magazine, I believe.

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-05, 12:07 PM
Done it. Had a Red Dragon pose as a white. When the party showed up with Protection from Cold and fire spells out the wazu, they were very upset when the fireball did nada and the "white" drasgon shot a cone of fire.

I remember reading about an encounter like that somewhere. It also had a fire giant disguised as a frost giant, IIRC. I need to pull that trick on my players sometime. :smallamused:

JaronK
2010-05-05, 03:43 PM
Done it. Had a Red Dragon pose as a white. When the party showed up with Protection from Cold and fire spells out the wazu, they were very upset when the fireball did nada and the "white" drasgon shot a cone of fire.

I actually pulled that exact same trick. They figured he'd be stupid too. I had him in the top of a volcano (where there was snow on the ground) to complete the illusion.

JaronK

Mauther
2010-05-05, 03:45 PM
Thought about Mercury Dragon... But I have made my decision.

Hex Dragon. Is. Amazing. And while there is something to be said for stereo-typing colors, I have already had a player flip out because a gold dragon was evil. But the Hex Dragon fits like a glove.

Thanks Serpentine for the suggestions!

Really screw with them, Give them a Sanctified Red Dragon with a Vow of Poverty. "Yeah, we killed the dragon, were's his loot?" Bad news, guys, #1 there is no loot, and #2 you just killed an exalted dragon. Congrats. I used it one campaign to "teach" a little lesson about jumping to conclusions. I thought it was HIlarious. The players, not so much.