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Seatbelt
2010-05-05, 01:00 AM
I own this book. Some of the feats are good. I know the Ordained Champion is awesome. The rest of it seems like crap. I was wondering if there were any reviews of the various PrCs or feats around the net, or some build suggestions for some of them? Especially the non obvious ones. Con to AC is great (Fist of the Forest) and Smite Everything All the Time? Ordained Champion's got ya covered. But some of the other ones like the PAragnostic Apostles or whatever seem weaker. But I'd like to get some more use out of this book if possible.

Keld Denar
2010-05-05, 01:17 AM
PA is a good dip. Its nice and rounds out a level or 2 in just about any full caster build, especially one that doesn't have a lot of feats to throw around casually. The perks aren't SUPER amazing, but the prereqs for the class are rediculously simple.

Many of the other PrCs from it are kinda crappy though. Both of the Pelor devoted ones suck, Holt Warden is meh, Sanctified One (Kord) gets mentioned a couple times blaster builds as a way to convert to untyped damage, but other than that is crap. Squire of Legend is crap (seriously, no good saves? WTF? The save bonus does NOT count). Paragnostic Initiate is crap. Mythic Exemplar is crap. Pretty much most of the PrCs in it are crap, minus OC and FotF, with FotF being rather selective.

As far as feats, Battle Blessings is a no-brainer for any paladin, Law Devotion is likewise strong for any build that has access to Turn Undead, particularly Sorcadins. Awesome Smite combos well with Ordained Champion. Being able to negate ANY DR and ANY miss chance is strong when you can convert TU into smites. The knockdown part is kinda lame given that your bonus is probably low, but there is no penalty for failure and a d20 is a fairly large die. Why not?

There are also some shananigans with Trickery Devotion, but I'll let someone else get into that.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 01:29 AM
Lion Totem Barbarian ACF? Win.
Bard Healing Hymn ACF? Win.
Fighter Aligned Strike ACF? Win (if you get level 4+ Fighter, that is).
Replacing Domains with Devotion Feats? Win.
Battle Blessing Feat? Win.
Fist of the Forest? Win.
Ordained Champion? Pure Win.
Paragnostic Apostle? Not too shabby.
Sanctified One? Pretty decent... spellcasting losses hurt, but abilities can be very nice. Probably worth a 1 level dip for Kord's Holy Fire or Wee Jas' Armor of Law.
Even some pretty decent spells in there.

Yeah, the Religious Organizations stuff is pretty campaign-specific... but they can serve as guidelines for any campaign.

lsfreak
2010-05-05, 01:31 AM
Travel Devotion is a pseudo-pounce for many classes, and the best way to make a ranged scout or swift hunter work.

Death Devotion isn't on level with Travel Devotion or Shock Trooper or Robilar's Gambit, but is still a fairly solid choice for a melee character.

Knowledge Devotion is excellent for quite a number of builds, especially archery builds, and is really more along the lines of what Weapon Focus or Favored Enemy should have been from the start.

Lion Totem Barbarian is a staple of melee classes. Melee needs pounce, and that's the best way for 95% of classes.

Spontaneous Divination allows shenanigans with wizards getting into spontaneous-only PrC's.

Combined with the paladin or pseudo-paladin stuff listed by you and Keld, that's enough for me to consider it a solid book. In terms of how much I get out of it, it's on par with CW or CAdv; each one has a few select, very good features, with a few other decent choices, and a lot of stuff that I flat-out ignore.

Eldariel
2010-05-05, 01:54 AM
Lion Totem Barbarian ACF? Win.
Bard Healing Hymn ACF? Win.
Fighter Aligned Strike ACF? Win (if you get level 4+ Fighter, that is).
Replacing Domains with Devotion Feats? Win.
Battle Blessing Feat? Win.
Fist of the Forest? Win.
Ordained Champion? Pure Win.
Paragnostic Apostle? Not too shabby.
Sanctified One? Pretty decent... spellcasting losses hurt, but abilities can be very nice. Probably worth a 1 level dip for Kord's Holy Fire or Wee Jas' Armor of Law.
Even some pretty decent spells in there.

Yeah, the Religious Organizations stuff is pretty campaign-specific... but they can serve as guidelines for any campaign.

You left out the real benefit for the Fighter: Resolute! Fighters with poor Will-saves? No longer, sissies!

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 02:08 AM
Knowledge devotion too, and even Ring of the Beast!

Koury
2010-05-05, 03:46 AM
Lion Totem Barbarian is a staple of melee classes. Melee needs pounce, and that's the best way for 95% of classes.


Lion Totem Barbarian ACF? Win.

[pet peeve]It's Spirit Lion Totem. Lion Totem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm#lionTotemClassFeatures ) gets Run and some dumb other bonuses.[/pet peeve]

Anyway, on topic, Sanctified One of Wee Jas gets Sanctified Fall. Are you a Cleric? Did you just get knocked out? Immediate action to cast any spell. Heal for the win! Whats the limit per day on that one? Oh yeah, none. :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 09:02 AM
As far as feats, Battle Blessings is a no-brainer for any paladin.

Archivists too :smalltongue:

And yes, CC has some nice stuff. The PrCs are mostly meh but that shouldn't be the only criterion on which to judge a splat book.

It's stronger than CAdv (and maybe CWar), in my opinion.

gbprime
2010-05-05, 01:48 PM
Many of the devotion feats are just beautiful. And personally, most DM's will let you power your Air Devotion off of Rebuke Air as well as Turn Undead. Likewise for the other elements and plants. Anyone with some turning laying around that isn't very effective should invest in one.

The reserve feats in the book aren't so hot, but I can see Touch of Healing being used for an NPC order of healers easily.

And while the PrCs are hit or miss (you won't see a lot of powerful builds dipping into them), some of them are neat.

But check out the alternate class features. Wizard gets a HUGE one (Spontaneous Divination) and a cool one (Domain Granted Power). Sorcerer gets some love (Domain Access and Divine Companion), Rogues get to share their evasion or sneak attack undead (at half effect, but still...), Rangers and Paladins can choose to ditch their spellcasting levels and get bonus feats instead, etc, etc. Definately the best part of the book.

Fawsto
2010-05-05, 02:08 PM
My DM and most of our players find it overpowered... Of course it is because they keep comparing the very good stuff with the very bad stuff.

I had to beg for using Law Devotion and Knowledge devotion with my character.

But even I think OC goes a little bit too far. C'mon, I know the Cleric puts both the Paladin and the Fighter to shame, but man, OC is just jmping the shark. There is also the reserve feats like Holy Warrior. Seriously, not using a level 9 war spell is a very low price for extra 9 points of damage for every melee attack you make. Pre-reqs? War Domain and levels?

They also do not liek the fact that a lot of the best feats do not have pre-reqs at all! Law Devotion FTW! Any Cleric could take it by RAW. At least they burn your TUs forever.

It seems impossible to change their minds in this subject, though. I canot find arguments around.

Akal Saris
2010-05-05, 02:20 PM
Eh, I think OC is balanced, you're losing 2 CLs, which is significant unless you're starting at 20th.

I'm not a huge fan of CC, since most of the "fluff" of the book is worthless to me. I don't use Greyhawk gods, in fact nobody I know uses them, so an entire book about organizations devoted to Pelor really doesn't interest me. The feats have some great choices (I love Law Devotion personally), some good and broken ACFs, and a few OK PrCs. The "of the Beast" set is also a killer 3 item set for druids, particularly the under-priced ring of the beast and the very handy shoulders.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 02:24 PM
Knowledge Devotion is arguably more broken than any of the other Devotion Feats.

At least with the other Devotion Feats, you get it once a day unless you burn Turn Attempts.

Knowledge Devotion works every day, every time, every battle. At the cost of at most eighteen skill points (assuming class has no Knowledge Skills as class skills, since they have to get five ranks in one), you have +1/+1 vs. every opponent. In the hands of the right class (I'm looking at you, Duskblade), it's easily more powerful than any other Devotion Feat could hope to be.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 02:26 PM
Knowledge Devotion is arguably more broken than any of the other Devotion Feats.

Powerful != broken.

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 02:27 PM
I've been able to get Wee Jas into every campaign I've ever played in, by contrast.

Greenish
2010-05-05, 02:30 PM
Knowledge Devotion works every day, every time, every battle. At the cost of at most eighteen skill points (assuming class has no Knowledge Skills as class skills, since they have to get five ranks in one), you have +1/+1 vs. every opponent. In the hands of the right class (I'm looking at you, Duskblade), it's easily more powerful than any other Devotion Feat could hope to be.It scales like Weapon Focus and the like ought to scale. It rewards investing skill points.

It's not broken, merely well designed.

KingoftheTrees
2010-05-05, 04:45 PM
Don't rule out Healing Devotion. That feat has saved my cleric of Pelor at least 10 times over the past 12 levels, and has prevented at LEAST two TPKs. And that was even before my DM or I knew about the errata.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-05-05, 04:57 PM
With all this awesome stuff in there, why do people think the book is crap to begin with? :smallconfused:

the humanity
2010-05-05, 05:02 PM
^besides the cool things, a huge amount of overcomplicated systems and rather bland flavor explanations are in there.

in addition, Forest Reeve for any type of Messenger build.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-05-05, 05:14 PM
What's a messenger build? :smallconfused:

Ramza00
2010-05-05, 05:27 PM
Seriously there is little reason you should take a wizard past level 5 with the paragnostic apostle now existing. Fill those level 1 or 2 dead spaces if you are waiting for a prc that has skill requirements of 10 or 12 ranks.

Good abilities and Lore. Now you don't need a bard or cleric to get bardic knowledge/lore, nor does the prc force you to be a loremaster.

Seatbelt
2010-05-05, 05:29 PM
I kinda figured a lot of the PrCs are bad. But I'm going to whip some NPCs up using them for some campaigns I'm running. My rule of thumb is that the NPC is going to last 5 rounds, so everything good he needs to be able to do should happen in 5 rounds. After that.. the PCs screwed up. :)


So I appreciate the input. :)

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 05:32 PM
With all this awesome stuff in there, why do people think the book is crap to begin with? :smallconfused:

My experience has been that it's because they perceive it as too powerful, which to me is ridiculous.

Runestar
2010-05-05, 05:36 PM
With all this awesome stuff in there, why do people think the book is crap to begin with? :smallconfused:

It is bad in that it seems the designers just crammed a bunch of arguably over-powered (relative to other books anyways) material inside to boost books sales, with little emphasis on lore or fluff.

I mean, heck - the last thing I would expect out of a book about divine magic would be to acquire pounce via a barb! :smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 05:37 PM
It is bad in that it seems the designers just crammed a bunch of arguably over-powered (relative to other books anyways) material inside to boost books sales, with little emphasis on lore or fluff.

I mean, heck - the last thing I would expect out of a book about divine magic would be to acquire pounce via a barb! :smalltongue:

Erm, except it's through his connection with the spirits... so yeah.
YMMV.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-05-05, 05:40 PM
My experience has been that it's because they perceive it as too powerful, which to me is ridiculous.

Anything that helps 3.5 paladins be less crippled is okay in my eyes! I depended on this book for my last 3.5 character.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-05, 05:42 PM
It is bad in that it seems the designers just crammed a bunch of arguably over-powered (relative to other books anyways) material inside to boost books sales, with little emphasis on lore or fluff.

I mean, heck - the last thing I would expect out of a book about divine magic would be to acquire pounce via a barb! :smalltongue:

Relative to which books?

The Player's Handbook (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm)

or The Dungeon Master's Guide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#candleofInvocation)?

Thurbane
2010-05-05, 08:51 PM
I see a lot of love for Ordained Champion in various threads...AFB at moment, but what makes it so good? I thought any lost caster level PrCs were always viewed as sub par?

Fawsto
2010-05-05, 09:38 PM
He compensates by being a complete War Machine. Giving everything your cleric needs to do even better on the bettlefield. Losing 2 caster levels is nothing.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 09:54 PM
I see a lot of love for Ordained Champion in various threads...AFB at moment, but what makes it so good? I thought any lost caster level PrCs were always viewed as sub par?

Basically, you become an engine of gishy destruction. Full BAB, autoquicken and +2 CL on War spells, (which you can cast spontaneously as well), and Wis to attack+damage.

T.G. Oskar
2010-05-05, 10:11 PM
Sanctified One? Pretty decent... spellcasting losses hurt, but abilities can be very nice. Probably worth a 1 level dip for Kord's Holy Fire or Wee Jas' Armor of Law.

If I were to take Sanctified One for Wee Jas, I'd go all the way.

I lose three spellcasting levels (and that hurts in any league). Instead, I get at Sanctified One 5, the ability to cast (even 1/day) a single spell I know as a spell-like ability. That means, if I get in that moment 9th level spells and choose Wish, I can cast it as a Ruby Spell.

That means: no verbal component, no somatic component, can cast it mentally...I still need the expensive material component, though. However, the most important quirk from this is: no XP cost. Yes, no XP cost (you need to expend the material component, but not the XP cost). That means either Wish 1/day or Gate 1/day with no XP cost, and you can still cast the rest of those spells with your normal spell slots. If you get it earlier, there are several spells that you can use with Ruby Spell. And finally, you can replace that spell each time you get a new spellcasting level (so you can get it earlier, and replace it with a better spell each time you get a new spell level; interpret that as you will, but that could either mean caster level OR ability to cast spells of a specific level).

Really, the sanctified ones of Wee Jas are pretty tough. Not only do I get a +5 bonus to AC (though defeatable by touch), I get immediate spells upon death. And Ruby Spell, which can go from bad to awesome in seconds flat with the right spell.

And yes, Kord's Chaos Fire is awesome. Basically, you can cast any spell as if it were Flame Strike.

Pluto
2010-05-05, 10:16 PM
Basically, you become an engine of gishy destruction. Full BAB, autoquicken and +2 CL on War spells, (which you can cast spontaneously as well), and Wis to attack+damage.
+Reliable channeling without spell-level caps, that caster-mangling Spellsword nonsense or any of that minute-duration Smiting Spell BS.

That's enough to sell me.