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Thurbane
2010-05-05, 03:12 AM
Is there any easy way for a non-caster (specifically, a Rogue) to gain the ability to Turn Undead without multi-classing?

...it's to try and get a straight Rogue 5 into the Skullclan Hunter PrC. Knowledge Devotion can handle the skill reqs, but I was wondering if there's any way to get Turn Undead without a dip into another class or PrC.

Aharon
2010-05-05, 03:43 AM
The only method I know of is being a dragonwrought kobold or other true dragon. You then take the Lightkeeper archetype from Dragons of Eberron and the feat extra turning.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-05, 03:47 AM
Factotum get an ability that mimics Turn Undead at lvl 5. I don't think it counts as Turn Undead for PrCs though.


~edit~


Thread on same topic with solutions. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7932285)

Curmudgeon
2010-05-05, 03:57 AM
Items can give you turn undead:

Shroudcrown (Player's Guide to Faerūn, page 124): no limit to use specified (but it's expensive).
Sword of Crypts (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 119): will need Use Magic Device check of DC 21 to Emulate a Class Feature (turn undead ability of a Cleric) to get +1 turn attempt/day.

Person_Man
2010-05-05, 08:56 AM
The solutions I know about have already been posted or linked to. I asked a similar question in this old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56795). Afterwards I basically came to the conclusion that the benefits weren't worth the trade-offs. You'll get a better damage output against undead with a normal Rogue with a wand of Gravestrike or any Power Attack or Tome of Battle or Incarnum build, all day Protection from Evil isn't that expensive, and the immunities aren't that useful as long as you can get good Saves. But if you come up with a good build, I would love to see it.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-05, 09:12 AM
I suppose if you had both lots of gp available and a free feat (which is likely the more precious resource for a Rogue), you could have both a Shroudcrown and Sacred Outlaw (Dragon # 357, page 86). The Shroudcrown lets you turn undead as a 10th level Cleric. Sacred Outlaw adds your Rogue and Cleric levels for sneak attack and undead turning. You won't get any boost to sneak attack with 0 Cleric levels, but you'll be turning undead as if you were a Cleric of (Rogue + 10) levels.

Of course, a Phylactery of Undead Turning costs 1/10th as much to give a +4 boost to your level for undead turning. This isn't exactly a steal unless you take full advantage of the fact that there's no limit specified for daily uses of a Shroudcrown.

Thurbane
2010-05-05, 04:36 PM
OK, thanks for all the advice...looks like it's going to be tricky, to say the least.

Another option, looking back through some old threads, is the Planar Touchstone feat, that could give you access to the Sun Domain, including Greater turning 1/day. This would require Knowledge (The Planes) 8...meaning another feat required to add KTP to the skill list. I think the Educated feat adds all Knowledge skills to the character's class list - might be a better option, although Knowledge Devotion would be more useful for the build.

1 level dip in Soldier of Light (DD) would also be a solution, but strays from my intention of being a pure Rogue 5/SKH X, not to mention that the PrC and it's required deity does not fit with my campaign (although I could re-fluff it).

On a tangent about the Sun Domain - for a Cleric, is the Greater Turning in addition to the Cleric's normal amount of Turn Undead checks/day, or does it use one of them?

Yorrin
2010-05-05, 04:56 PM
As I recall there's also a couple of feats in one of the Dragon magazines that can give it to you. Can't remember which one, though.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-05, 05:50 PM
On a tangent about the Sun Domain - for a Cleric, is the Greater Turning in addition to the Cleric's normal amount of Turn Undead checks/day, or does it use one of them?
It uses one of them, so you get no benefit from the Sun granted power if you can't already turn undead.
Granted Power: Once per day, you can perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-05, 06:11 PM
Turn as a level 10 cleric would imply the same limitations and usage as a level 10 cleric.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-05, 08:01 PM
Turn as a level 10 cleric would imply the same limitations and usage as a level 10 cleric.
There are no limitations on usage based on Cleric level, other than having the class feature (level 1+).
A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. The limitation is based on a statistic which isn't mentioned in the Shroudcrown's emulation of a level 10 Cleric, and the item does not reference the wearer's Charisma. This leaves it as a DM's call as to whether to:

allow indefinite use
use the wearer's Charisma
allow a Use Magic Device check to Emulate an Ability Score
use the maximum Charisma bonus plausibly obtainable by a Cleric at level 10 (something like 37 = 18, +6 anthropomorphic bat, +2 increments at levels 4 & 8, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement)
cut the wearer off at some arbitrary point
If the DM chooses the wearer's Charisma as the limiting factor, there's nothing preventing the item from being handed around so that everyone in the party gets the daily maximum of turn attempts for their Charisma.

Thurbane
2010-05-05, 09:05 PM
It uses one of them, so you get no benefit from the Sun granted power if you can't already turn undead.
Thanks, that's what I thought, but when I was perusing the SRD last night I missed that key phrase of "in place of". :smallfrown:

...OK, maybe time for a new direction:

Is there any other classes that grant Sneak Attack (or equivalent) that would have an easier time getting Turn Undead by level 5?

Skullclan Hunter requires 2d6 SA, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks and ability to Turn Undead. Since it doesn't progress casting, I was trying to get in there with a non-casting class if possible.

gbprime
2010-05-05, 09:26 PM
The skullclan hunter gets some nice perks, and dipping 1 level of cleric is kind of worthwhile in the end. You get some otherwise useless turn undead power that you can later make insanely useful with a Devotion feat from Complete Champion.

But if all you're looking to do is to sneak attack undead without resorting to an item, you can trade in your Trap Sense ability for the Death's Ruin alt class feature from Complete Champion. It's half SA to undead, but it's otherwise free.

Thurbane
2010-05-05, 09:31 PM
The skullclan hunter gets some nice perks, and dipping 1 level of cleric is kind of worthwhile in the end. You get some otherwise useless turn undead power that you can later make insanely useful with a Devotion feat from Complete Champion.
That's true. And I could always trade away domains for extra Devotion feats.

But if all you're looking to do is to sneak attack undead without resorting to an item, you can trade in your Trap Sense ability for the Death's Ruin alt class feature from Complete Champion. It's half SA to undead, but it's otherwise free.
Nah, I've really got my heart set on SKH for this build, but thanks anyway.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 10:00 PM
That's true. And I could always trade away domains for extra Devotion feats.

No, you can't. You can trade away one domain for one Devotion feat - you must acquire any additional ones like you would other feats.

"In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat."

gbprime
2010-05-05, 10:04 PM
No, you can't. You can trade away one domain for one Devotion feat - you must acquire any additional ones like you would other feats.

"In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat."

And most of the time you only really want one devotion feat anyway. You tend to burn through turns too quickly if you're lighting off more than one.

Darrin
2010-05-05, 10:05 PM
It uses one of them, so you get no benefit from the Sun granted power if you can't already turn undead.

There may be some wiggle-room there. The Sun domain specifies that it uses a "turn attempt", not a "turn undead attempt", so it could be argued that one of the elemental/plant/animal domains could be used to power the greater turning. I'm not really sure how strong that argument is as far as RAW goes, though. Still, that may be the only non-Dragon-material methods to get turn undead with only just feats.

Then there's the bone talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) spell for druids.

Dragon Magazine has two methods via feats: God-Touched and Divine Channeler from Dragon #305, no prereqs other than worship a deity, for turn undead 1/day.

The Bloodline feats from Dragon #325 (reprinted in Dragon Compendium) allow sorcerers to pick up Necromantic Bloodline and then Kin Mastery for turn undead 1/day. Requires about 6 levels of Sorcerer, though.

Yorrin
2010-05-05, 10:10 PM
God-Touched and Divine Channeler from Dragon #305, no prereqs other than worship a deity, for turn undead 1/day.

+1 to this. This is what I referring to.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-05, 10:42 PM
There are no limitations on usage based on Cleric level, other than having the class feature (level 1+). The limitation is based on a statistic which isn't mentioned in the Shroudcrown's emulation of a level 10 Cleric, and the item does not reference the wearer's Charisma. This leaves it as a DM's call as to whether to:

allow indefinite use
use the wearer's Charisma
allow a Use Magic Device check to Emulate an Ability Score
use the maximum Charisma bonus plausibly obtainable by a Cleric at level 10 (something like 37 = 18, +6 anthropomorphic bat, +2 increments at levels 4 & 8, +5 inherent, +6 enhancement)
cut the wearer off at some arbitrary point
If the DM chooses the wearer's Charisma as the limiting factor, there's nothing preventing the item from being handed around so that everyone in the party gets the daily maximum of turn attempts for their Charisma.

"As a level 10 cleric" =

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su)

Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells.

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
"level 10" also defines the power of a Cleric's turn.

While yes, a DM is free to invoke rule 0 and change how the item functions, that doesn't change what it means. The limit on turn attempts is part of the ability. Get the ability as a cleric, get the limits as a cleric. And yes, it could be passed around.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-05-06, 12:07 AM
I must say I've been enjoying Curmudgeon's posts, as usual. Phoenix is right though.

Thurbane
2010-05-06, 12:22 AM
No, you can't. You can trade away one domain for one Devotion feat - you must acquire any additional ones like you would other feats.

"In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat."
Indeed - apologies for my poor wording, but that's the gist of what I meant (i.e. if I wanted more than 2 devotion feats total).

Dragon Magazine has two methods via feats: God-Touched and Divine Channeler from Dragon #305, no prereqs other than worship a deity, for turn undead 1/day.
I normally don't use any Dragon material (other than what's in the Compendium), but it sounds like the simplest solution. Thank you.

Prodan
2010-05-06, 12:25 AM
Chameleon mimicry (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b)

Curmudgeon
2010-05-06, 01:33 AM
No, you can't. You can trade away one domain for one Devotion feat - you must acquire any additional ones like you would other feats.
The bolded part isn't stated in the rules; you're drawing an incorrect inference. While the rules stipulate a 1:1 trade (one domain for one Devotion feat), they don't limit Clerics to just a single trade. They do limit this trade to Clerics only, and they limit Clerics to a maximum of 3 domain feats (instead of the limit of 2 for non-Clerics). Furthermore, obtaining 3 domain feats requires trading at least one domain for the corresponding feat.

There is, however, nothing preventing a Cloistered Cleric (3 domains) from trading 0, 1, 2, or all 3 for the corresponding domain feats, in a strict 1:1 ratio. (The Cleric can't obtain 2 domain feats for a planar domain, despite the planar domain "costing" as much as 2 normal domains.)

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-06, 03:32 AM
The bolded part isn't stated in the rules; you're drawing an incorrect inference. While the rules stipulate a 1:1 trade (one domain for one Devotion feat), they don't limit Clerics to just a single trade. They do limit this trade to Clerics only, and they limit Clerics to a maximum of 3 domain feats (instead of the limit of 2 for non-Clerics). Furthermore, obtaining 3 domain feats requires trading at least one domain for the corresponding feat.

There is, however, nothing preventing a Cloistered Cleric (3 domains) from trading 0, 1, 2, or all 3 for the corresponding domain feats, in a strict 1:1 ratio. (The Cleric can't obtain 2 domain feats for a planar domain, despite the planar domain "costing" as much as 2 normal domains.)

Actually, they don't limit this trade to Clerics only...

"If you are a cleric (or any other character class who gains access to a domain), you can choose any domain feat corresponding to the list of domains offered by your deity, even if you do not have access to those particular domains."

So, a Wizard who becomes a Divine Oracle could trade in the Oracle Domain for the Luck Devotion Feat (based on the Domain Equivalencies chart).

And they explicitly do offer trading in up to three Domains... but no more than that.

"In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacrificed domain. In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat."