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Origomar
2010-05-05, 06:57 AM
how does the scout sniper variant work with sniping, does it allow you to snipe and then rehide again or can you not because its a full round action?

deephelldragon
2010-05-05, 06:58 AM
how does the scout sniper variant work with sniping, does it allow you to snipe and then rehide again or can you not because its a full round action?

I would have to read my books again to find out but i would say that you could not because it is a full round action.:smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-05-05, 07:07 AM
The sniper's shot takes a fullround action (that specifically doesn't allow 5 foot step), so you can't use it with the "Sniping" use of Hide.

Brilliant design.

Ruinix
2010-05-05, 10:07 AM
again and again this thing.

1. snipe is only usefull when u r alone and no other team mate have to wait nothing.

2. feats:

-woodland archer. u can move after the attack. (RotW)
-concelead ambush. halve penalty to hide check (-10)
-able sniper. +2 to hit. +4 to hide check. (RotW)
-travel devotion. (u can make a full skirmish snipe attak)

3. again on paper its look great, but in practic and with friends waiting for their turns is a ****.

Greenish
2010-05-05, 10:09 AM
again and again this thing.You didn't even read the original post. :smallannoyed:

Origomar
2010-05-05, 12:38 PM
so much for building a long range sniper class with scout :p

Serpentine
2010-05-06, 01:35 AM
People in VT's group, don't read this.
I'm doing this very thing. Ranger 4/Sniper Scout 2. The lack of movement afterwards is a pain, I know :smallsigh: If you're interested, I'll show you what I've got, but I probably don't know any better than you.
I'm going to start an archery thread in Homebrew sometime soon, if anyone wants to contribute to it. A prestige class and a few feats. The lack of decent archery stuff in D&D is ludicrious :smallsigh:

Sophismata
2010-05-06, 02:01 AM
1. The hide rules are written poorly.
2. The "sniping" section is superfluous, the rules already cover hiding while attacking.
3. "Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking..."
4. Hiding does not 'use' an action, it is used in conjunction with an existing action.

Summary:

It can be done, you make the check at -20.


...but see Ruinix's post.

AslanCross
2010-05-06, 07:37 AM
again and again this thing.

1. snipe is only usefull when u r alone and no other team mate have to wait nothing.

<snip>

3. again on paper its look great, but in practic and with friends waiting for their turns is a ****.

Not completely true. It does take a bit to set up, but with readied actions it's not that hard to do.

The best way to snipe in D&D is through the use of Able Sniper, Crossbow Sniper, a Great Crossbow, a Wand of Sniper's Shot (in a wand chamber in the bow), and maxed UMD.

Under Rules Compendium, a spell trigger item such as a wand is a swift action to use. Thus, a rogue can UMD the wand of Sniper's Shot (unlimited sneak attack range for one round) and can take the shot, then hide.

Crossbow Sniper reduces the Sniping penalty to -10. Elixir of Hiding costs 250 GP and lasts for an hour. It cancels out the sniping penalty with its +10 to hide checks. With the penalties that distance imposes on Spot, it can get very difficult for monsters to find the sniper even if the party is engaged in combat with the monster.

In my current campaign, the party rogue took up a position on a rooftop in the middle of a city under attack. The rest of the party fought in the streets while he stayed 20 feet above them and rained sneak attack dice on monsters that got past.

For situations where he couldn't set up a sniper's nest, he had the Deadeye Shot feat (PHB 2): Ready an action to shoot an enemy if an ally hits it in melee; the enemy loses its dex bonus to AC against your shot (thereby triggering Sneak Attack). He still uses it to deadly effect.

Sniping in D&D is possible. It requires a lot of set up, but it does not necessarily paralyze the rest of the group with boredom.

Ruinix
2010-05-06, 08:05 AM
the hide check isnt imposible, cause the target have his own penalties due the terrain and such of thing.

as for the redeated action, mm well is interesting but again is suboptimal, cause u have a all build for something u can do just a coupple of time for campaing.

so like a said, on paper i look awesome, but in real game (and i have the bad luck of have been a test crushdummie XDD) is a sh!t.

aslancross. do u tryed or seen try the snipe thing? belive me, it crush with bore the rest of the players and like i said, even if u can plan rediated actions wich u can, is only a thing u can do 2 or 3 times at most in the all campaing and burned 2 or 3 feats for that?! is too much subop too much expensive.
_____

archery in D&D is a little subop but u can make a very nasty build and focused if u want.

for martial targeteer fighter variant is a MUST
for caster i love clerics archers.

AslanCross
2010-05-06, 08:17 AM
the hide check isnt imposible, cause the target have his own penalties due the terrain and such of thing.

as for the redeated action, mm well is interesting but again is suboptimal, cause u have a all build for something u can do just a coupple of time for campaing.

so like a said, on paper i look awesome, but in real game (and i have the bad luck of have been a test crushdummie XDD) is a sh!t.

aslancross. do u tryed or seen try the snipe thing? belive me, it crush with bore the rest of the players and like i said, even if u can plan rediated actions wich u can, is only a thing u can do 2 or 3 times at most in the all campaing and burned 2 or 3 feats for that?! is too much subop too much expensive.
_____

archery in D&D is a little subop but u can make a very nasty build and focused if u want.

for martial targeteer fighter variant is a MUST
for caster i love clerics archers.

My campaign journal is linked in my sig. For the entire campaign--running for almost a year now--I've had someone in a sniper role. The first guy who tried it sucked, as you said---but the second guy who put together a sniper rogue did it and has been doing it really well, and not just because of luck.

The sniper has been dealing 45-55 damage every single attack since he hit level 11. Consistently. That's about 1/4-1/3 of a LOT of CR 10 monsters, and a bigger chunk of HP for even more. He either snipes the classic way or uses Deadeye Shot.

In our last session, he killed a blue dragon.A CR 14 adult blue dragon, with a +27 Spot modifier, couldn't come close to the rogue's 60+ hide check results.

And all this time, no, the rest of the party was not sitting there bored waiting for him to take the shot. They were all fighting tooth and nail.

Altarus
2010-05-06, 08:22 AM
Granted that Nox (and by extension the player) is also lucky that most of his rolls were confirmed critical hits contributing to that damage.

AslanCross
2010-05-06, 08:28 AM
Luck notwithstanding, my point is that it is an optimizable character concept. It is not doomed to unequivocal failure.

Ruinix
2010-05-06, 11:24 AM
interesting.

what is this sniper build? (char build and items)

and how the hell the adult blue dragon dont crush the all place from it was sniped ?! there was a knight taunting him ?!

Greenish
2010-05-06, 11:30 AM
and how the hell the adult blue dragon dont crush the all place from it was sniped ?! there was a knight taunting him ?!Crusader and warblade were smacking the dragon, psion was blasting it and so forth. The dragon was busy, so to say.

Anyway, it would need to win the spot check to know where it's sniped from, I think.

[Edit]: I would also love to see Nox's (and Lyka's :smalleek:) builds, and the campaign journal is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Ruinix
2010-05-06, 11:46 AM
Anyway, it would need to win the spot check to know where it's sniped from, I think.

not really. an adult dragon of any colour is an inteligent magic creature, so if the dm dont use it properly isnt a good or a fair combat.

an intelligent dragon used in an intelligent way must crush the ZONE/AREA from where it was sniped and keep using his breath for keep the melees away.

Greenish
2010-05-06, 11:52 AM
an intelligent dragon used in an intelligent way must crush the ZONE/AREA from where it was sniped and keep using his breath for keep the melees away.Would it know the zone if the sniper succeeded in the Hide check?

AslanCross
2010-05-06, 04:50 PM
not really. an adult dragon of any colour is an inteligent magic creature, so if the dm dont use it properly isnt a good or a fair combat.

an intelligent dragon used in an intelligent way must crush the ZONE/AREA from where it was sniped and keep using his breath for keep the melees away.

1. The battle was practically entirely in the air. There was a long, narrow bridge crossing a canyon. The party's warblade and crusader were enlarged and flying and taking big chunks out of the dragon's HP (when they caught up with him). The dragon was more concerned with killing those two. He spent the whole time laughing at the sniper, who kept missing at that point (through no fault of his own; the dragon's AC was insanely high).

2. Crush only works on creatures three or more size categories smaller. The dragon was huge. It would've only worked on a small creature. The sniper was medium. It's one of the more frustrating things about the Crush ability, IMO, since I'm sure a creature the size of an African bull elephant would certainly flatten you or me if it dropped out of the sky.

3. What the dragon was about to do was drop down onto the suspension bridge (sending it swinging madly and spilling the sniper and the cleric into the 200-foot chasm below--however, they were tied to the bridge, so they would've still stayed there) THEN use his maximized breath weapon (which would have killed them instantly). Right before the dragon's turn though, the sniper got lucky scored a critical hit. That was the end of that.

I take dragon fights seriously. I always make sure that the dragon has the terrain and battlefield control advantage. I never use stock dragons from the Monster Manual; they will always have a few feats from Draconomicon in addition to tricks that are not explicitly mentioned in a dragon's statblock (a red dragon using smoke from a burning city to hide, the blue dragon using the bridge as a trap for the PCs, etc).

If you read my campaign journal, I did run one dragon fight in an extremely stupid manner. I've never done that since. The blue dragon battle was faster than I had expected, but it was still extremely challenging for the PCs. They got lucky when it counted.

I have Nox's character sheet here, but it will take a while for me to put it together and I'm heading to class in a bit. I'll post it when I have the time.