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Klyth Manyclaw
2010-05-05, 07:37 AM
Hey everyone, Klyth Manyclaw here. I've recently been working on a new idea for a campaign, and I was wondering about a small issue I've been having with my first adventure for it. The hook for the adventure was kobold and goblin raids occuring simultaneously in a small border town in the 'central' kingdom of the world, with a bounty on Goblin and Kobold heads being issued by the Duke of the town to help control the intensity of said raids. For it to work, I was planning on having numerous Goblin and Kobold skirmishes on the borders of the town.

Unfortunately, this leads to the obvious problem of the majority of my encounters for the adventure being CR 2 or 3, and I want to start the campaign at level one for story reasons. So, I was wondering, what have people's experiences been running skirmishes with multiple sources? If, for instance, a Kobold raiding party of 4-5 warriors and a Goblin raiding party of 3-4 warriors continue battling, would it still be a fair fight for the PC's? Or would this get too challenging?

Mongoose87
2010-05-05, 07:42 AM
Nothing is stopping the PCs from hiding and waiting for them to knock each-other down.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 07:43 AM
If the Kobolds & Goblins are working together, the PCs will need to set up ambushes & such.

If the Kobolds & Goblins refuse to work together, the PCs will generally be okay against those numbers (assuming a standard party of 4-6 PCs).

If the Kobolds & Goblins hate each other as much as they hate the "civilized people"... then the PCs can have fun tricking the two groups into attacking each other, then swooping in to clean up.

Greenish
2010-05-05, 08:15 AM
NPCs fighting together is a bit boring for the PCs, especially if you actually play out the fights instead of just narrating.

Anyway, low level PCs could run afoul of a small group of kobold saboteurs in the midst of a town to be targeted by their attack, or surprise a detachment of goblin scouts certain that they had scared the mammals into hiding in their towns.

The point being, there are many ways of reducing the difficulty of encounters, and having a three way fight between two groups of NPCs and the PCs might not be the best (thought the idea has certain flavour, it could get old fast).

deephelldragon
2010-05-05, 09:15 AM
Don't you think that this is a bit railroady or is it just me.

Greenish
2010-05-05, 09:16 AM
Don't you think that this is a bit railroady or is it just me.Yeah, putting PCs to fight NPCs is the very definition of railroading. :smallconfused:

Cyrion
2010-05-05, 09:42 AM
How big is your party, and what's the make up? If you've got the "typical" D&D party, then you may have a tough fight on your hands. If you've got a party of 5 or 6 that isn't made up entirely of rogues, the fight could easily become a cakewalk.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 09:53 AM
How big is your party, and what's the make up? If you've got the "typical" D&D party, then you may have a tough fight on your hands. If you've got a party of 5 or 6 that isn't made up entirely of rogues, the fight could easily become a cakewalk.

Actually, having the first fight or two be cakewalks isn't bad... It allows you to get a handle on the power level of the group without having an "Ooops, you're all dead" moment.

stenver
2010-05-05, 12:12 PM
The PC could just hide and wait out. Then you roll 2 dices and see which one is bigger, goblin or kobold dice. After that just tell them that "Goblins/Kobolds are starting to lose a fight"(with illustrations) If they decide to wait some more just say that "Goblins/Kobolds are now starting to scatter" Roll a spot for kobolds and if they spot PC-s, THEN PC have an encounter. If they dont, and the PC wont engage them, then they wont. Simple.

Nidogg
2010-05-05, 12:44 PM
Yep, should be fine. But remember to award innovative thinking. Break in through an abandoned mine shaft rather thanelans idea... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0024.html):smallmad:

elpollo
2010-05-05, 02:23 PM
*Snip*

If the Kobolds and Goblins aren't working together it seems a little contrived to have them attacking at the same time. Either one knew about the other's attack (in which case why are they attacking at the exact same time? Wouldn't it make more tactical sense to wait for the town/goblins to be defeated and the other severely weakened before attacking?) or they didn't (in which case what are the odds of the two assaults happening at the same time? Are there frequently raids from the two tribes?).



Nothing is stopping the PCs from hiding and waiting for them to knock each-other down.

Indeed, is this not the logical path to take? Why engage in a conflict which will quickly and safely resolve itself?



Don't you think that this is a bit railroady or is it just me.

Railroady? How? It's lacking in verisimilitude, but it's hardly railroading.



The PC could just hide and wait out. Then you roll 2 dices and see which one is bigger, goblin or kobold dice. After that just tell them that "Goblins/Kobolds are starting to lose a fight"(with illustrations) If they decide to wait some more just say that "Goblins/Kobolds are now starting to scatter" Roll a spot for kobolds and if they spot PC-s, THEN PC have an encounter. If they don’t, and the PC wont engage them, then they wont. Simple.

Pet peeve, but the singular is die, the plural is dice.


*

Why are the two groups attacking at the same time? If there's not a good reason, don't do it. If you must have the two, why not have one group know about the other's attack and plan their attack a little later? Have the players engage with the remaining forces of the goblins, say, allowing a few easy encounters, then have a scout of the village return and say "Oh, and I've just run across a group of kobolds waiting in the forest over there which were arming up." Then let the players plan a defence for the kobolds, evacuate the village, set some traps, place militia, build barricades, or just run away.

Math_Mage
2010-05-05, 04:17 PM
Why are the two groups attacking at the same time? If there's not a good reason, don't do it. If you must have the two, why not have one group know about the other's attack and plan their attack a little later? Have the players engage with the remaining forces of the goblins, say, allowing a few easy encounters, then have a scout of the village return and say "Oh, and I've just run across a group of kobolds waiting in the forest over there which were arming up." Then let the players plan a defence for the kobolds, evacuate the village, set some traps, place militia, build barricades, or just run away.

I'm of the opinion that it's more fun to come up with crazy reasons why the OP's scenario is plausible. The goblins and kobolds have been fighting each other forever, and this human settlement suddenly intrudes. The two races still hate each other, but now they're expressing it through rivalry to see who can trash the settlement first--direct warfare is limited to sabotaging the other race's efforts. The PCs come upon two groups of monsters, one goblins and one kobolds, arguing with each other about who made it into town first. Go! :smallbiggrin:

valadil
2010-05-05, 04:27 PM
Going up above standard CR is fine. In 3.5 I usually ran encounters 2 CR higher than suggested and bossfights 4-6 CR higher.

I have to agree with those that say NPC vs NPC may make fights boring. Let's look at it this way. 5 PCs vs 5 Goblins vs 5 Kobolds. You'll end up taking 2 turns for each player's turn. You'll be playing the game more than the players will. The players should be the stars of the show. Unless you're really quick at combat, I suggest finding a way around fights with many more NPCs than PCs.

Thinker
2010-05-05, 05:06 PM
Why are the two groups attacking at the same time? If there's not a good reason, don't do it. If you must have the two, why not have one group know about the other's attack and plan their attack a little later? Have the players engage with the remaining forces of the goblins, say, allowing a few easy encounters, then have a scout of the village return and say "Oh, and I've just run across a group of kobolds waiting in the forest over there which were arming up." Then let the players plan a defence for the kobolds, evacuate the village, set some traps, place militia, build barricades, or just run away.

The most logical reason for the two groups to attack at the same time is that they have a similar piece of intel that tells them that the town's defenders will be preoccupied at this time. Unfortunately, they don't have very good intel on the rival faction. Some scenarios:

There is a regularly scheduled supply train or caravan approaching the town and the duke has to divert resources to ensure it arrives through his territory intact. Failure to do so could result in unfortunate consequences for his lands (starvation, lack of raw materials, missing the king's orders, etc.).
There is a festival for their culture that requires the town's defenses to be distracted and looking inward to contain the revelers.
The king has gone to war/begun an expedition and requires soldiers from his nobles, leaving the duke with more limited resources.
The king has died and the coronation for the new king requires an honor guard from each fiefdom.
The duke needs to send supplies elsewhere and needs to guard the caravan (for example, his fiefdom is rich in iron and needs to ship it out to maintain the city).
New supplies have already reached the town that the kobolds and goblins want, such as gold, iron, lumber, food, etc.
It is harvest time and the kobold and goblin tribes are looking to score some easy food for their tribes.
It is tax season and the tribes are looking to knock over the tax man while his pockets are full.
The king (or some other official) is in town and the duke is required to guard him and his family.
Both tribes worship the same deity and their seers advised this time to strike.

Klyth Manyclaw
2010-05-05, 06:43 PM
Sorry for not being around to answer people's questions. I'll just try to do a summary of everything here:

Nothing's forcing the PC's to fight, its simply the setting in which it is occuring. I'm actually planning on making this part of a play-by-post on the forums, just still working on the initial ideas, so I'm afraid I can't yet comment as to the party's make-up or go in to too much detail as to the plot, beyond what will be standard knowledge at the beginning of the campaign.

The basic scenario is that the Goblins and Kobolds have both recently, and quite strangely simultaneously, arrived at opposite borders of a small border-town rich in farm-land, wood, and minerals due to an its position between mineral-rich mountains, dense woodlands, and a thin belt wherein a mildly high water table and good soil composition has led to incredibly fertile ground. The Kobolds and Goblins have since begun raiding the town. When they discovered each other, they began raiding each other as well, attempting to gain as much benefit from the town's resources as possible to fuel tribe growth. Tactically, if the PC's play smart and wait back, fine by me. I'm hoping they do.

This was simply to deal with the possibility that the players WOULDN'T sit back and mop up when it appeared one side was near defeat. There are numerous skirmishes around the area where smaller raiding parties have met while going to raid the Lumber mills, farm lands, or mines. These are mostly to remind the players that there's a war going on around them, even if it a rather small one between various factions. However, on the off-chance the players decide to actually attack the kobolds and goblins, I wanted to be sure they wouldn't get massacred by that number of enemies.

As to the critique that the encounters might get boring, I hadn't actually considered the possibility. By my logic, the skirmishes themselves would provide the PC's with the opportunity to play the two groups against each other, or give them an advantage that would then allow them to feel more powerful when facing down more opponents and cleaving through them. These encounters wouldn't be the ONLY ones, obviously, but small skirmishes between the warring factions would be common in zones that were equally close to both the forests the Kobolds inhabit and the mountains the Goblins are currently taking residence in.

The reasoning behind the skirmishes was based partly on the Frontier situation in early America. Both colonists and Native American tribes were present on the borders, and both competed for resources. I simply thought that by taking it a step farther, by having, for instance, two warring Native American tribes, in our extended example, that the situation would remain much the same, just with more meetings. Kobolds attack the frontiersman of the Colony, who drive them back with defenses and spears. Goblins attack on the southern border, and similar event occurs. Kobolds and Goblins go to the less-protected farm belt in numerous, seperate groups to plunder the defenseless resources, and occasionally meet, fight over the loot each side has gotten, and then one side retreats or is killed and the other goes home twice as rich.

It is necessary for the setting, but I suppose I could pre-roll the battle out before hand, so if the PC's hang back I don't have to go round-by-round through combat while they sit there and watch. Idea based on suggestion by stenver. Thanks. :smallwink:

Thanks for all the critiques and comments everyone's already given. It's helped a ton.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-05, 06:46 PM
Will you be running this game on the forums somewhere? I can't imagine you're considering DMing again for that RL group you were with, even from the fallout that splashed onto here.

Klyth Manyclaw
2010-05-05, 06:54 PM
I'd really rather not go in to the real-life group again. Its kind of a sore spot, and beyond that, its External Baggage.

But yes, I will be running the game on the forums. I'm hoping to have the recruitment thread up in a couple of days, actually. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-05, 07:01 PM
Cool. Will be watching for it.:smallsmile:

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 08:17 PM
To make it clear that attacking the enemy camps at low levels is dumb...

1) Show what happens when just 4-5 Goblins/Kobolds attacks the town alone. 6 dozen Commoners/Experts > 4 Goblins.

2) Have a higher-level Goblin/Kobold in the background who just observes. Showcase his toughness by having him chop down any NPC villager who gets too close. When the raid goes south, have him overheard (by someone who speaks the language, obviously) saying something like "I must inform the great warriors of the tribe". Bonus points: Have another Goblin/Kobold say "I will give you time to escape, Captain!"