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View Full Version : Is it worth teaching 1sted for the Tomb of Horrors?



Katana_Geldar
2010-05-05, 08:07 AM
One of my friends gave me the module and ever since then it's been playing on my mind since then. We play fourth, though one of my friends recons he can source the rules for AD&D so we can play it.

So, will the effort be worthwhile? I'll be running it, so if there are any yesses I could do with a few tips.

Kish
2010-05-05, 08:11 AM
1ed has two major differences from 3.xed and on (and many others, but these two are the most relevant ones here).
1) Large parties.
2) Casual mortality.

Tomb of Horrors epitomizes both of them. If you have a group of three or four characters, each of whom their players are attached to, it will go badly.

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 08:16 AM
It will go badly.

Fixed.
The original tomb of horrors is actually pretty nightmarish, since there wasn't really a reliable way to resolve the presence of traps except poke them. This means you got to play "Guess What Gygax Was Thinking?!" Which is more fun than it sounds, but not really something I'd teach a system for. There are other iconic gaming experiences that I would prioritize over it if I were to be telling you to learn a whole game system.

And trust me, if you've only played 3e, 1e really will mean learning a whole system.

Katana_Geldar
2010-05-05, 08:16 AM
We have as many as nine players at the table at a time, numbers will not be a problem.

And as we're just playing 1ed for the Tomb of Horrors, I doubt there will be much attachment.

And it would be more for fun than anything else really, no seriousness...hopefully.

And we play 4th, though some of us have played 2nd or 3rd.

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 08:20 AM
We have as many as nine players at the table at a time, numbers will not be a problem.

And as we're just playing 1ed for the Tomb of Horrors, I doubt there will be much attachment.

And it would be more for fun than anything else really, no seriousness...hopefully.

And we play 4th, though some of us have played 2nd or 3rd.

If you play 4th, just... don't. Find a different 1-shot to run.
I recommend Kobolds Ate My Babies, or All Flesh Must Be Eaten. It's basically the same experience as Tomb of Horrors.

MickJay
2010-05-05, 08:20 AM
Combine it with the Paranoia mechanics of everyone starting the game with 6 clones, and you're good :smallbiggrin:

Or let your players do what the original group did, hire A LOT of henchmen and let them poke everything first.

Katana_Geldar
2010-05-05, 08:25 AM
I was considering running it Paranoia style, also with the fact we're playing against each other :smalltongue:

And I'm not mean enough to jump right in with Tomb of Horrors first time. Of course there will be a "How the hell do I do x?" playtest session before we go there.

Starscream
2010-05-05, 08:28 AM
There is a 3.5 conversion of ToH available free online. You might have an easier time with that, as some of your players have already played 3rd edition, and it has more similarities with 4th (D20 system, high AC is good, etc) so it will be simpler to teach the newbies.

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 08:28 AM
I was considering running it Paranoia style, also with the fact we're playing against each other :smalltongue:

And I'm not mean enough to jump right in with Tomb of Horrors first time. Of course there will be a "How the hell do I do x?" playtest session before we go there.

Are you already familiar with 1st edition? If not, you should sit down and learn it thoroughly before trying to teach it.


There is a 3.5 conversion of ToH available free online. You might have an easier time with that, as some of your players have already played 3rd edition, and it has more similarities with 4th (D20 system, high AC is good, etc) so it will be simpler to teach the newbies.

If you're looking for lethality, I wouldn't use this. We beat it with unoptimized characters, no trouble, and one party member short on top of being two levels under par.

some guy
2010-05-05, 08:31 AM
Here are some retro-clones. 1ed but with a bit more clear rules. You can download the core-rules for free. Disclaimer: I have never played it before, but I did read them through.

Labyrinth Lord (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/labyrinthlord.html)
and
Swords and Wizardry (http://www.swordsandwizardry.com/?page_id=4)

You can download the 3.5 revision of the Tomb of Horrors (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a) here. In combination with the original module, maybe you could create a fourth edition version?

EDIT: Hum, I was a bit ninja'd whilst looking up those links. Oh, well.

ErrantX
2010-05-05, 08:53 AM
In a word: NO.

In more than that, Doc Roc about summed it up. Gygax made that for pain, not for fun. It's really only fun for a sadistic DM because at the end you get a giant middle finger for your efforts as a player.

And remember: The Sphere of Annihilation is ALWAYS in the statue's mouth.

-X

Person_Man
2010-05-05, 09:06 AM
Note that ToH has been updated to every edition of D&D (except 4th) and Pathfinder, in case someone in your group already happens to know how to play one of those rule sets.

hamlet
2010-05-05, 09:07 AM
Is it worth it to learn AD&D 1e/OSRIC? Yes. It's a rewarding system and strongly adaptable.

Is it worth learning AD&D 1e/OSRIC just to play Tomb of Horrors with a group who games almost exclusively on more modern game systems? No. The Tomb of Horrors is a very fun module if you understand what it's about. It's not just yer average death module despite what people here will tell you.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 09:19 AM
We have as many as nine players at the table at a time, numbers will not be a problem.

And as we're just playing 1ed for the Tomb of Horrors, I doubt there will be much attachment.

And it would be more for fun than anything else really, no seriousness...hopefully.

And we play 4th, though some of us have played 2nd or 3rd.

It sounds like you've already made up your mind to me.


The Tomb of Horrors is a very fun module if you understand what it's about. It's not just yer average death module despite what people here will tell you.

Right - it's an extra-special death module.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-05, 09:21 AM
The latest (3.5) conversion of Tomb of Horrors still retains some traps that aren't bypassable, because they're triggered by the mere presence of PCs. A properly optimized Rogue can take point on 90% of this trap-happy module without worries, and let the rest of the party twiddle their thumbs until they come across a monster. Even after all the prior updates, there are still some rules-breaking legacy elements left over from the original edition. :smallsigh:

Cyrion
2010-05-05, 09:34 AM
ToH may be the iconic module from 1e, but if you're going to learn the system, go for the better modules- White Plume Mountain, the Pharoah series, the giants/drow/demonweb series are worth the edition.

hamlet
2010-05-05, 09:47 AM
ToH may be the iconic module from 1e, but if you're going to learn the system, go for the better modules- White Plume Mountain, the Pharoah series, the giants/drow/demonweb series are worth the edition.

I would say that module T1 (and not T1-T4, just Homlet) is more iconic, really. That, adn the SaltMarsh series, Slaver Series, and maybe one or two others. TOH is certainly memorable and a stand out, but it's not really iconic in that it does not represent actual campaign play so much as it represent what the module is.


Right - it's an extra-special death module.

Kinda. The module is, EXPLICITELY, designed to "teach a lesson to" a specific group of gamers who had very high level characters with very high ability scores and scads of items and etc. that the game could still be deadly dangerous and still provide ample challenge.

TOH was a smack down on arrogant gamers that caught on in popularity. It's widely viewed as a right of passage, now, amongst the OSR.

Kylarra
2010-05-05, 09:52 AM
ToH has enough deathtraps without considering the rest of your party a liability as well. If you decide to run it despite everything else that's been said, please don't make it a paranoia style game where you can't even trust your party.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 09:52 AM
The latest (3.5) conversion of Tomb of Horrors still retains some traps that aren't bypassable, because they're triggered by the mere presence of PCs. A properly optimized Rogue can take point on 90% of this trap-happy module without worries, and let the rest of the party twiddle their thumbs until they come across a monster. Even after all the prior updates, there are still some rules-breaking legacy elements left over from the original edition. :smallsigh:

A little 3.5 optimization makes the module quite easy even at the recommended levels, so long as you are cautious. Jack_Smith's Trapsmith Wizard and/or Disassembler Druid can generally get through the whole module unscathed.

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 10:09 AM
A little 3.5 optimization makes the module quite easy even at the recommended levels, so long as you are cautious. Jack_Smith's Trapsmith Wizard and/or Disassembler Druid can generally get through the whole module unscathed.

Hell, all we needed was a chameleon with a +10 skill item. Disassembler druid is like nuking a housefly.

Renegade Paladin
2010-05-05, 10:27 AM
One of my friends gave me the module and ever since then it's been playing on my mind since then. We play fourth, though one of my friends recons he can source the rules for AD&D so we can play it.

So, will the effort be worthwhile? I'll be running it, so if there are any yesses I could do with a few tips.
I've found the 3.5 conversion of it to be suitably nasty, if you'd rather not do all that work learning 1e.

Mythestopheles
2010-05-05, 10:40 AM
Since you guys are saying that the 3.5 Tomb of Horrors is easy, do you guys know either, a way to make it harder without completely screwing over the players, or a similar modual/campain?

imperialspectre
2010-05-05, 11:05 AM
Well, the problem is that the "threat" of the original Tomb of Horrors is incredibly primitive. It basically amounts to requiring the players to test every square they enter, in the right way, or else they lose at least one character. Hell, sometimes the only way you can test an area is by sending a character in and seeing what happens (I'm looking at the initial entry points here).

The only reason this "works" (i.e., threatens the party's continued survival) in 1e is that AD&D suffers from fundamental confusion regarding the metagame's place in the game. Players are expected to come up with their characters' actual actions in a game ("I prod the edges of the ceiling with a ten-foot pole to see if the ceiling is built to collapse"), based on their own knowledge of what those actions should be, and the GM is expected to decide whether those actions work. In 3e, on the other hand, the game is designed to model the characters' capabilities, and players make tactical decisions ("I search the room *roll d20*") without being expected to know the details of how to search an area for traps any more than they "know" the details of how to cast a magic missile.

The bottom line is that AD&D Tomb of Horrors "works," in terms of promoting paranoia and general freaking-out amongst the players, because the mechanics of AD&D mean that the traps are adjudicated by players making guesses about what Gygax expected them to do, and often being proved wrong because Gygax was a pretty odd guy. 3.5 Tomb of Horrors doesn't work that way, because 9th-level adventurers are pretty competent and have the mechanical ability to beat traps of the type found in the Tomb of Horrors. You're better off scaring them with the occasional above-CR encounter and monsters with good deception abilities - in other words, things that should be scary in-character, instead of scary only in a metagame sense.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 11:15 AM
Hell, all we needed was a chameleon with a +10 skill item. Disassembler druid is like nuking a housefly.

From orbit! It's the only way to be sure. :smallwink:

Togo
2010-05-05, 12:41 PM
My original 1st ed party levelled the place the first time they played it. It punishes a particular playstyle, and is lethal with a particularly DM style.

Optimisation is largely irrelevent. Your 'build' is largely irrelevent (it didn't really apply in 1st ed). What matters is how you play, and how your DM plays.

Mando Knight
2010-05-05, 12:45 PM
Note that ToH has been updated to every edition of D&D (except 4th) and Pathfinder, in case someone in your group already happens to know how to play one of those rule sets.

Yeah... well, about that...

See, players with evil-module running DMs have marked July 20th as a day of dread. And Horror. Because they'll be buried in it (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/253850000).

goken04
2010-05-05, 05:13 PM
Yeah... well, about that...

See, players with evil-module running DMs have marked July 20th as a day of dread. And Horror. Because they'll be buried in it (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/253850000).

You're best off waiting for this, since it's in a system you're already familiar with. Of course, none of us can attest to its playability.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-05, 05:44 PM
A little 3.5 optimization makes the module quite easy even at the recommended levels, so long as you are cautious. Jack_Smith's Trapsmith Wizard and/or Disassembler Druid can generally get through the whole module unscathed.Ah, I got a mention.

Also: The build works with any full caster if all sources are permitted, and can be done with a couple of partial casters as well. It can also be done Core, but you'll be resting a lot (expressly permitted in The Tomb - other than a handful of critters, it's all traps).

Further, with a Wizard, it's actually possible (if you're lucky on available spells) to do that with the 1st edition version. Until your DM throws the book at you for abusing summons + limitless rest, anyway.

Deca
2010-05-05, 05:48 PM
If you're looking for lethality, I wouldn't use this. We beat it with unoptimized characters, no trouble, and one party member short on top of being two levels under par.

Agreed. The 3.5 Tomb is hardly lethal at all.

peterpaulrubens
2010-05-05, 06:49 PM
ToH may be the iconic module from 1e, but if you're going to learn the system, go for the better modules- White Plume Mountain, the Pharoah series, the giants/drow/demonweb series are worth the edition.

This. The Giants/Drow/Demonweb series was easily the best of AD&D, IMHO.
There was also a Mind-flayer series whose name escapes me now that was excellent, and the Slavers series was also really good.

For a one-shot, go with Dungeonland (aka Alice in Wonderland). Much better, much more fun, and (IIRC, it's been 20+ years) close to as deadly as Tomb of Horrors, without that feeling of "you're dead because the DM killed you" that ToH leaves.

Akal Saris
2010-05-05, 08:10 PM
I've run the 3.5 version before - an optimized ftr/rogue and a cleric duo'd the whole thing with a few henchmen and a flask of endless water. Only 1 death near the end, or 3 if you count PC stupidity that was quickly ret-conned.

Module spoiler:

My PCs freaking guessed that the hallway with the illusion of a crying girl led into a sliding trap and lava. After a four-hour session deep in the module, it was like they were freaking channeling Gygax for a little while there.


The key, as others have said, is in being paranoid and in pumping the rogue's search checks into the stratosphere - the combat itself, aside from the very first monster and the very last, is generally easy enough by optimized standards. A lot of the module conversion is designed to show off Libris Mortis materials, so CR 3 crud like a Brain in a Jar is included. Though the Bleakborn absolutely wrecked my PCs, who ran into about 3 traps fighting it and kept rolling 1's to my 20's. Overall it was great fun for me, and my players had a good time. I'll follow up with the 3.5 conversion of Against the Drow when I have the opportunity.

Personally, I'd wait for the 4E module in 2 months rather than teach 1E to my players. 1E's alright, but I'd rather play 4E personally.

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 08:21 PM
Bleakborn are some of the best designed monsters in all of 3.x

raitalin
2010-05-05, 08:57 PM
... so CR 3 crud like a Brain in a Jar is included...


That CR 3 Brain in a jar TPK'd my party. Well, the wizard did after he got dominated.

I had a lot of fun with the module as DM, the party didn't want to go ahead after the TPK.

Doc Roc
2010-05-05, 09:16 PM
That CR 3 Brain in a jar TPK'd my party. Well, the wizard did after he got dominated.

I had a lot of fun with the module as DM, the party didn't want to go ahead after the TPK.

How the heck did you 'zard fail that save?

senrath
2010-05-05, 09:25 PM
Probably the same way half of the group I DMed for failed that save. Rolling a 1.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-05, 09:29 PM
That CR 3 Brain in a jar TPK'd my party. Well, the wizard did after he got dominated.

I had a lot of fun with the module as DM, the party didn't want to go ahead after the TPK.

So... the Wizard rolls a very badly (1?) on a save vs. Mind Control, and the brain in the jar proceeds to order him to slaughter the rest of the party - which he does quite handily? Ouch.

See, this is why you want to have your characters strongly against killing people you're traveling with - per Dominate Person: "Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus." - If killing your comrades is against your nature, you get a second try to throw off the effect.

Thajocoth
2010-05-05, 09:31 PM
I think they actually ported it to 4e... I know Acerack and the like are in the Monster Builder at least... I'll see what I can dig up on that.

EDIT: Found it!

http://www.amazon.com/Tomb-Horrors-4th-Super-Adventure/dp/0786954914

It exists in 4e. So there's no need to teach new rules to anyone.

"Tomb of Horrors features a modular design that allows Dungeon Masters
to build campaigns around the events herein, or pick and choose from the
various chapters for use as standalone adventures. It presents a variety of
challenges, from intricate combat encounters to traps and tricks evocative
of the classic Tomb of Horrors adventure.

This D&D adventure is designed for characters of 10th–22nd level and
includes a full-color, double-sided battle map designed for use with D&D
Miniatures."

Akal Saris
2010-05-05, 09:31 PM
Hehehe, that just makes my day, knowing that somewhere out there the Brain in a Jar TPK'd a ToH party.

In my case, the brain spent 4 or 5 rounds trying and failing to use dominate and then suggestion on the party members while they looked for a way to get to the brain without triggering any traps. Then they broke the jar and killed it -_-

Katana_Geldar
2010-05-06, 02:13 AM
I think I will wait until July and run the 4E one. It was the 1E mindset decided me, I hardly think anyone in the group can think like an Infocom game.
It certainly cleared up a few of my questions when I was reading it last night.

raitalin
2010-05-06, 02:55 AM
How the heck did you 'zard fail that save?

He rolled fantastically low. I don't think it was a 1, but might have been a 2 or 3 and he didn't have a wisdom bonus.

Really, a lot of things lead to the TPK. The Factotum had been dominated the previous day and tried to abduct the wizard and take him to the jar when the party rested. The Warforged Dungeoncrasher caught him in the process and killed him. While the party was revisiting areas trying to find the entrance to the second part of the dungeon the Wizard (Focused Specialist summoner) got dominated.

The wizard clogged the hallway with summons while the brain used telekinesis to grapple the Cloistered Cleric, preventing him from casting Break Enchantment or the like.

Matthew
2010-05-07, 10:58 AM
Is it worth it to learn AD&D 1e/OSRIC? Yes. It's a rewarding system and strongly adaptable.

Is it worth learning AD&D 1e/OSRIC just to play Tomb of Horrors with a group who games almost exclusively on more modern game systems? No. The Tomb of Horrors is a very fun module if you understand what it's about. It's not just yer average death module despite what people here will tell you.

Pretty much this. Especially given the high level of Tomb of Horrors, it is not worth learning a whole system just to play it.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-07, 06:24 PM
There are way better modules to learn 1E for: Against the Giants/ Drow/ Demonweb Pits
is probably the greatest AD&D Adventure of all time. The 1e Ravenloft is really great, too. White Plume Mountaian, Barrier Peaks, Temple of Elemental Evil, to name a few.

Don't get me wrong, Tomb of Horrors is right up there with the rest of these, but to learn 1st Ed just to TPK in the ToH, (and if it's not a TPK, you did it wrong :smalltongue: ) doesn't seem practical. If your interested in 1E, you should definitely check out these other modules. Maybe even try your hand at converting them to to 3E OR 4E.

Oh, and the sequel to ToH; Return to the Tomb of Horrors for 2nd Ed is better than the 3.5 version.