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View Full Version : [3.5] Devoted Soulknife (Soulknife build that doesn't actually work. : (



Human Paragon 3
2010-05-05, 08:55 AM
Disclaimer:

This is not the Gia-knife. I realize that this build works not by virtue of the soulknife's inherent value, but by the power of the cleric dip, cleric spells, and the borderline broken devotion feats. I realize that a psychic warrior would work better. I realize that a Warblade or Swordsage would work better. Furthermore, I have no immediate plan to play this build, and it is strictly a thought experiment, or at most useful advice to those considering a soulknife build. The interesting bit about it, for me, is the synergy between the soulknife's class features (such as they are) and the cleric devotions, which make for a build that is playable with 19 levels of soulknife, effectively, at around Tier 3.



The Build:

Mark 1- Human Cloistered Cleric 1/Soulknife 19

Feats: Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion, Hidden Talent (bonus feat), Psychic Meditation, Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact and any 3 others of your choice.


Explanation:

This build hinges on the fact that clerics can trade their domains in for devotion feats (Complete Champion). Cloistered Cleric gets better skill points, an extra free domain, and the same BAB as regular cleric, so we're going with that. We're cleric of a cause rather than a deity strictly for flavor reasons, and grab any other two domains we want, one of which must be Travel.

Travel Devotion is the crux of the build. We trade out the travel domain for the devotion feat for free. It gives the soulknife an extra move action every round. We use this extra move action to charge our mindblade with psychic strike, something that used to prevent us from moving or taking a full attack action, making one of the main class features of souknife unusable except at the lowest levels of play. We can also use the extra move action to charge up our mindblade with Psionic Weapon by regaining psionic focus on any round. At low levels, we can charge our mindblade twice and attack on the same round. At higher levels, we'll be attacking more often, so usually we'll only use one of these effects, but on rounds where we can't attack, we can double charge our mindblade.

Knowledge Devotion is a great choice for this build, probably worth taking the feat for. It shores up one weakness of the soulknife, difficulty hitting and dealing damage, by giving a +1-+5 bonus on each. Cloisted cleric has all knowledge skills thanks to having the knowledge domain, so we should be able to make decent use of this, and I think it fits well with the flavor of soulknife.

Deep Impact is another feat that wants us to have psionic focus. By expending psionic focus, we can make any attack a touch attack, further mitigating the soulknife's BAB. No matter what class you are, making repeated touch attacks is a good thing, and if necessary this build can make a touch attack every singe round and still full attack.

Hidden Talent is strictly better than Wild Talent, so grab a power. You can take it from any list.

Having every cleric spell on our spell list is another huge boon, because it gives us access to cleric wands and scrolls. This makes the Devoted Soulknife an excellent back up healer and utility caster (or even primary healer). What's more, it gives us access to Divine Might, completely obviating the poor BAB of soulknife and cloistered cleric.

When firing on all cylanders, this build will have full bab, make a touch attack every round and deal bonus damage every round. We can full attack or charge, or move and attack as we wish, and still make touch attacks and deal bonus damage. Alternatively, we can cast a spell or use a wand and double-charge the mindblade for a nova attack. All in all, this build has a number of great attack modes and tons of cool options in combat.

Customizing:

Our extra domain gives us a lot of custamizabillity. If you need to be the party's skill monkey, go with Trickery Domain. If you want a more straightforward approach, take Law Devotion and lay the smack down even more than you already do. Celerity will give you extra speed for improved skirmishing, or take one of the several that grant extra turning. Animal Devotion gives you a bonus to STR or a fly speed. There are tons of great domains and devotion feats that lets your Devoted Soulknife be whatever you need.

Kalashtar makes a good alternative to human, giving you more power points to spend on your Hidden Talent power and some cool racial abilities.

A soulbow dip (or just going into soulbow) would be a great boon, letting you switch between close and ranged. Don't forget to grab Zen Archery for this.

5 levels of Illumine Soul would be an excellent substitution. You'd lose multiple throw, but gain a lot of great abilities vs. undead.

Other Feats to Consider: Extra Turning. More Devotion Feats. Power Attack (for when you get Divine Might). The feat from Complete Psionic that lets you charge your mindblade for free when you drop a foe. Practiced Mindblade (+4 to soulknife level, dragon magazine, useful if you're multiclassing... which we are)


So that's the build. Let me know what you think, or if you have ways to improve it (that don't involve stripping out soulknife)!

Flickerdart
2010-05-05, 09:06 AM
Getting Hustle somehow would be a great benefit to this build, generating yet another move action for charging up your blade. You'll probably have to settle for power stones or dorjes of Hustle, though, since it's a 2nd level power (and Psicraft and UPD are cross-class for you).

Bladewind could be considered worthwhile if you increased your reach, so grab those feats and quaff some Enlarge Persons.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-05, 09:12 AM
I was thinking of Hustle, but couldn't come up with a way to get it into the build. Would a powerstone or dorje actually work? I thought you needed the power on your class list for that.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 09:13 AM
This build hinges on the fact that clerics can trade their domains in for devotion feats (Complete Champion). Cloistered Cleric gets better skill points, an extra free domain, and the same BAB as regular cleric, so we're going with that.

Two things:

1) You can only trade one domain for a Devotion feat - the rest must be acquired normally. You can't, for instance, be a Cloistered Cleric 1 with no domains and three Devotion feats.

2) Cloistered Cleric actually gets 1/2 BAB. Usually this is not an issue due to Divine Power, but you won't be able to cast it without items. It's only one level so it shouldn't matter though.

Flickerdart
2010-05-05, 09:13 AM
I was thinking of Hustle, but couldn't come up with a way to get it into the build. Would a powerstone or dorje actually work? I thought you needed the power on your class list for that.
A UPD check of DC20 emulates the power for the dorje, and DC20+ML of the power emulates the power in a power stone.

Kylarra
2010-05-05, 09:19 AM
You should really have 5 levels of Illumine Soul in there. You only lose out on multiple throw, and gain a bunch of anti-undead abilities.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-05, 09:28 AM
Having UPD crossclass may be a problem with for the power stones. This build wants to put most skill ranks into knowledge, and possibly stealth skills. Autohypnosis is also good.

I'll go back and edit the Devotion Feat info. Thanks for the catch!

As for Illumine Soul, I can see this as a good option to customize. Will add it to the customizablity section.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 09:44 AM
Your build has another problem - RAW, the Cloistered Cleric has all knowledge skills in-class because of the Knowledge Domain's granted ability.


The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below).

If you trade that out for Knowledge Devotion, you lose those Knowledge skills, stabbing yourself in the foot where the Devotion's abilities are concerned.

Also, consider Kalashtar instead of human - their racial subs for Soulknives are pretty good, as is the Atavist PrC in Races of Eberron.

Draken
2010-05-05, 09:45 AM
People always ignore that, but Cloistered Clerics don't have all Knowledge skills as class skills by default. That is by virtue of the Knowledge Domain's granted power.


Class Skills
The cloistered cleric's class skill list includes Decipher Script, Speak Language, and all Knowledge skills (from the Knowledge domain, see below). The cloistered cleric gains skill points per level equal to 6 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).



Knowledge Domain
Granted Power
Add all Knowledge skills to your list of cleric class skills.

You cast divination spells at +1 caster level.

If you trade the Knowledge Domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat you lose all knowledge skills as class skills and is left with only Know (Arcana), Know (History), Know (Religion) and Knowledge (The Planes) for cleric levels and whatever was chosen for Knowledge Devotion and Know (Psionics) for the rest of his career.

Greenish
2010-05-05, 09:51 AM
Travel Devotion doesn't give you extra Move actions: it allows you to move up to your speed as a swift action.

Prime32
2010-05-05, 09:52 AM
A soulbow dip (or just going into soulbow) would be a great boon, letting you switch between close and ranged. Don't forget to grab Zen Archery for this.Once you get Close Combat Shot, you don't need to switch between melee and ranged. Since you project the arrows from your hand, you can wield a two-handed reach and take a hand off to fire.

A 2-level monk dip lets a kalashtar advance both classes at the same time with the atavist PrC, and also lets them take the Tashalatora feat for soulknife, soulbow or atavist.

Here's a build I did a little while ago (optimised more for accuracy than power, mind):

Noel Vermillion
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/238/693637-noel_large.jpg
Kalashtar Monk 2/Soulknife 2/Cloistered cleric 1 (Celerity, Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion) 1/Soulbow 10/Atavist (aggresive) 5
Feats: Combat ReflexesB, Extra Turning, Flowing Blade, Improved Precise ShotB, Improved RapidshotB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Knowledge DevotionB, ManyshotB, Path of Shadows, Point Blank Shot, Precise ShotB, Rapid ShotB, Snap Kick, Stand Still, Stunning FistB, Travel DevotionB, Tashalatora (soulbow), Two-Weapon Fighting
Flaws: Murky-eyed
Equipment: Those gloves which improve TWF combined with deep crystal mind blade gauntlets

Take advantage of your ability to use mind arrows in melee without provoking AoOs to dual-wield them with flurries of unarmed strikes. Combat Reflexes + 10ft reach + Stand Still makes it hard for enemies to get away (be sure to combine your AoOs with Snap Kick).

Caliphbubba
2010-05-05, 09:55 AM
Your build has another problem - RAW, the Cloistered Cleric has all knowledge skills in-class because of the Knowledge Domain's granted ability.



If you trade that out for Knowledge Devotion, you lose those Knowledge skills, stabbing yourself in the foot where the Devotion's abilities are concerned.

You could just filp-flop it though, right? Get the Travel Devotion as the trade-in, and pick up the Knowledge Devotion with the feat. That'd fix it I think.

Prime32
2010-05-05, 09:57 AM
Or you could take Education (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Education) at 1st level, which makes Knowledge a class skill for all classes, not just cleric.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 10:01 AM
You could just filp-flop it though, right? Get the Travel Devotion as the trade-in, and pick up the Knowledge Devotion with the feat. That'd fix it I think.

Yes, that would work.

My common fix is to take the Devotion swap at 2nd or 3rd-level using "once a class skill, always a class skill." You aren't required to do the Domain-Devotion swap at any particular level.

Since he only has one level of CC though, that way won't work.


Or you could take Education (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Education) at 1st level, which makes Knowledge a class skill for all classes, not just cleric.

The trouble with that plan is it's a regional feat, which non-FR DMs don't always allow - and FR ones may demand that you actually meet the prereqs.

OP: What's your stance on 3rd-party? Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential have sweet Soulknife goodies.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-05, 10:22 AM
Or, if you're a Human or Half-Human, you get the Able Learner feat from Races of Destiny.

All Cross-Class skills only require 1 skill point instead of 2. You're still limited in maximum ranks though.

Thalnawr
2010-05-05, 10:29 AM
What's your stance on 3rd-party? Hyperconscious and Untapped Potential have sweet Soulknife goodies.

There's also the High Psionics Compilation, by Dreamscarred Press. An incredible amount of great Soulknife goodies are in that book.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-05, 10:32 AM
Hm, this appears to not work as well as I originally thought. I've updated the OP a little bit to reflect some of this, but my misunderstanding of Travel Devotion is a pretty big determent to the build. I'll have to consider it more. It may just be that the build needs Psychic Warrior for hustle instead of Soul Knife, which really defeats the purpose. Sad.

Person_Man
2010-05-05, 11:48 AM
What Greenish said bears repeating. Re-read Travel Devotion. It doesn't give you an extra move action. It lets you move. They're different.

Also, there are much easier ways of getting all day touch attacks. Master Thrower, Pyrokineticist, various spells (Flame Blade, Fire Dagger, Wraithstrike, Spectral Weapon) which can easily be put in wands.

Human Paragon 3
2010-05-05, 11:57 AM
Yup, I see that. It's just disappointing. Can't blame me for trying to engineer a work-around. Thread title changed to reflect my frustration.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 12:04 PM
Pyrokineticist

Don't forget the variants (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) - I highly enjoy Sonokineticist's Sonic Whip that ignores hardness.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-05, 01:53 PM
Don't feel too bad, OP. It's hard to make a good soulknife that isn't utterly outclassed by a variant class feature (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a).

Person_Man
2010-05-05, 04:11 PM
It's also worth mentioning that everyone and their cousin has made a Soulknife homebrew fix at some point (including me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92407)). "I'm a Jedi but different" is a very popular concept.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 04:24 PM
It's also worth mentioning that everyone and their cousin has made a Soulknife homebrew fix at some point (including me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92407)). "I'm a Jedi but different" is a very popular concept.

I've always found that connection strange. Isn't a lightsaber a thing? (i.e. not created by your mind)

Notwithstanding that a Shaper can make many things with his mind...

Greenish
2010-05-05, 04:28 PM
I've always found that connection strange. Isn't a lightsaber a thing? (i.e. not created by your mind)It's a glowing sword. Besides, lightsabers are one of the defining "class abilities" of the jedi in the minds of most people.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 04:34 PM
It's a glowing sword.

Lots of swords in fantasy glow though, even Bilbo's. Why did Soulknife in particular get tied to the Jedi, and not him?


Besides, lightsabers are one of the defining "class abilities" of the jedi in the minds of most people.

Even so, "glowy sword" is literally all they have in common. And it isn't even a full sword to start with. Nor can it cut through hot butter to start with, for all its glowiness.

A Glaivelock is so much closer in every way, though I still find posters asking for "Jedi builds" that have never heard of the combination.

Greenish
2010-05-05, 04:47 PM
Lots of swords in fantasy glow though, even Bilbo's. Why did Soulknife in particular get tied to the Jedi, and not him?What I meant to say is that it's a sword made of glow. Sting was metal (and only glowed when there were orcs nearby).

Even so, "glowy sword" is literally all they have in common. And it isn't even a full sword to start with. Nor can it cut through hot butter to start with, for all its glowiness.If I was to guess, the idea that it flashes out of nothing is part of the reason.

A Glaivelock is so much closer in every way, though I still find posters asking for "Jedi builds" that have never heard of the combination."Warlock" doesn't quite evoke the same picture as "jedi" (not that "soulknife" is that close either, but it's closer). Besides, it's not quite so widely known, like you pointed out.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 05:34 PM
What I meant to say is that it's a sword made of glow. Sting was metal (and only glowed when there were orcs nearby).
If I was to guess, the idea that it flashes out of nothing is part of the reason.

Whereas I would say that these are the only reasons. A fairly tenuous connection, but whatever.


"Warlock" doesn't quite evoke the same picture as "jedi" (not that "soulknife" is that close either, but it's closer). Besides, it's not quite so widely known, like you pointed out.

Maybe not "Jedi", but it fits "Sith" to a tee.
And a lightsaber should be a touch attack anyway. It really doesn't matter how hard you swing it, after all.

Anyhow, I wanted to share this passage on Soulknives from Untapped Potential - if WotC had implemented this, how different would the class have been?


SOULKNIVES AND PRESTIGE CLASSES
Sometimes, a soulknife may qualify for a prestige class with “+1 level of existing manifesting class” as part of a normal class benefit. This increased psionic training helps those who follow the path of the mind blade as well as the path of the manifester. At each level where a manifester level would increase by one, treat the soulknife as if he had gained a level of soulknife for the purposes of Mind Blade and Mind Blade Enhancement.

It’s less common, but sometimes a multiclass soulknife enters one of these prestige classes with a bit of manifesting talent. In this special case, each indicated level of the prestige class advances both the soulknife’s mind blade and mind blade enhancement as above, and his existing manifesting prowess by one level.

I think it would have allowed for much more cohesion with existing psionic PrCs (like Slayer) and made the class feel more "psionic" as a whole. The power boost from better PrCs isn't bad either. Thoughts?

Greenish
2010-05-05, 05:40 PM
SOULKNIVES AND PRESTIGE CLASSES
Sometimes, a soulknife may qualify for a prestige class with “+1 level of existing manifesting class” as part of a normal class benefit. This increased psionic training helps those who follow the path of the mind blade as well as the path of the manifester. At each level where a manifester level would increase by one, treat the soulknife as if he had gained a level of soulknife for the purposes of Mind Blade and Mind Blade Enhancement.

It’s less common, but sometimes a multiclass soulknife enters one of these prestige classes with a bit of manifesting talent. In this special case, each indicated level of the prestige class advances both the soulknife’s mind blade and mind blade enhancement as above, and his existing manifesting prowess by one level.

I think it would have allowed for much more cohesion with existing psionic PrCs (like Slayer) and made the class feel more "psionic" as a whole. The power boost from better PrCs isn't bad either. Thoughts?Hmm, like tashatalora for Soulknife. The class itself would still be poor, but at least you could get their signature ability on an actually good class (apart from the psywarr AFC).

Pechvarry
2010-05-05, 10:40 PM
I think this is off-topic, but in the spirit of the original parenthetic thread name, I thought I'd share a realization that could feasibly take a soulknife from "Wtf were you thinking" to "well at least it did some decent damage for a sec".

I'm so good at selling my ideas.

Mind Cleave from complete psionic: drop an enemy, save an action on your psychic strike recharge. But what are your chances of actually dropping a foe?

Let's say you're around level 12. You have Two Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, mind cleave, focused mind strike, and that funny but mostly worthless feat from complete adventurer called Dual Strike (attack with both weapons as a standard action; take silly penalties to the attack roll).

3 move actions outside of combat: 1 for psionic focus, 2 for charging either hand's mind blade.

Enter combat, find opponent, attack! Make a single attack roll at a -4 penalty (I'll let someone better at optimizing find a way to make the attack more sure of connecting) to attack with both weapons. Dual Strike specifies you only add precision damage once, but psychic strike is explicitly not precision damage. Soooo, instead of 1 attack for +3d8 damage (the norm for level 12), you get 2 weapon strikes and deal +8d6. And you were able to move this round. Succeed in dropping the baddy? Rinse and repeat. Why I like this: it's my understanding that in this situation, only the mind blade that delivered the kill blow would be recharged. Dual Strike makes them inseparable.

If you can also fit in Mind Empowerment, then whichever blade did the kill blow would get an extra +1d8 damage on future psychic strikes. Once again, Dual Strike will (DM allowing) make this apply to both.

Still not horribly potent, but it seems like a nice minion killer, if you don't mind only one/round.

I warned you!

Kylarra
2010-05-06, 12:41 AM
Soulknife should've stayed a prestige class.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 07:22 AM
Still not horribly potent, but it seems like a nice minion killer, if you don't mind only one/round.

I warned you!

Your logic looks sound - Dual Strike + Mind Cleave should let you recharge both blades at once, provided you drop the foe.

But you're also right that the massive penalties to attack make this tactic less than useful. Worse still, the only way for a Soulknife to get the bonus feats he needs to make the TWF chain worthwhile, is the ACF that trades away his psychic strike - which renders the whole thing rather meaningless.


Soulknife should've stayed a prestige class.

Nah, I do like Soulbows and Atavists, both of which rely on the base 'knife. And as stated earlier, they do get more useful with 3rd-party material, like the rest of psionics.