PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Weretiger PC creation



Flail_master
2010-05-05, 08:56 AM
Hey again guys, as usual i think this needs some context.

As some of you may know, i am trying to set up an awesome campaign, an evil party campaign, everyone playing as someone evil, and i said to everyone to be whatever they could think of, vampire, goblin, half-fiend, you name it, as long as its got an entry with 'as character' or you can figure out the stats, its cool (with some review of course :P)
so one guy, a close friend of mine, decides he wants to be a weretiger fighter which is awesome, and at this point we are hanging together at the time, so we look it up, and something confused me, its all good an well the stat bonuses and the such (natural lycan by the way) but a few things kinda bewildered me:
- it mentions that the animals hit dice (6d8+18) are added to its base hit dice and class levels and it alter his BAB and saves accordingly, does this mean he starts with 10+con+6d8+18 health? AND being a fighter he starts essentially at 7th level fighter along with the feats and +7/+2 BAB?
-skill points are fair enough, wouldnt hurt to get explanation
- it also says they get bonus feats according to hit dice added as well, does this mean he ALSO gets an extra two feats already by essentially starting at level 7?

and all this just for starting at ECL 4, not to mention DR 10/silver...

tell me guys if im correct and if im makin this sound way more overpowered than it is

(also keep in mind that almost everyone will be starting with an extra template, they weill be starting fighting CR4's minimum, so dont say dont allow it :smalltongue:)

Flickerdart
2010-05-05, 08:58 AM
The Weretiger template adds 6 HD and 2 or 3 LA, depending on the nature of the curse. A 1st level Weretiger Fighter is a 9th or 10th level character.

Flail_master
2010-05-05, 08:59 AM
The Weretiger template adds 6 HD and 2 or 3 LA, depending on the nature of the curse. A 1st level Weretiger Fighter is a 9th or 10th level character.

does this mean his ECL becomes 9 or 10, or is it only the LA that changes that?

because it does indeed look like hes a 10th level character

Jeff240sx
2010-05-05, 09:01 AM
Hey again guys, as usual i think this needs some context.

As some of you may know, i am trying to set up an awesome campaign, an evil party campaign, everyone playing as someone evil, and i said to everyone to be whatever they could think of, vampire, goblin, half-fiend, you name it, as long as its got an entry with 'as character' or you can figure out the stats, its cool (with some review of course :P)
so one guy, a close friend of mine, decides he wants to be a weretiger fighter which is awesome, and at this point we are hanging together at the time, so we look it up, and something confused me, its all good an well the stat bonuses and the such (natural lycan by the way) but a few things kinda bewildered me:
- it mentions that the animals hit dice (6d8+18) are added to its base hit dice and class levels and it alter his BAB and saves accordingly, does this mean he starts with 10+con+6d8+18 health? AND being a fighter he starts essentially at 7th level fighter along with the feats and +7/+2 BAB?
-skill points are fair enough, wouldnt hurt to get explanation
- it also says they get bonus feats according to hit dice added as well, does this mean he ALSO gets an extra two feats already by essentially starting at level 7?

and all this just for starting at ECL 4, not to mention DR 10/silver...

tell me guys if im correct and if im makin this sound way more overpowered than it is

(also keep in mind that almost everyone will be starting with an extra template, they weill be starting fighting CR4's minimum, so dont say dont allow it :smalltongue:)

No, no no.

HD = level adjustment.
Level adjustment = level adjustment.

I'm AFB, but if it's LA +4, with 6HD, he's a level 10 character, and should not level up again until the party (and he) reach enough XP for level 11.

However, that method will lead to a powerhouse plus a bored party. There's a savage progression for lycanthropy somewhere. Search around for that.
If I find it, I'll post up.

But for everything you're talking about, HD + LA = ECL. And Ghost is a broken +2LA (or whatever it is), so I'd disallow that right off the bat.

Greenish
2010-05-05, 09:04 AM
Werecreature templates are all rather weak for their ECL. Weretigers will gain Neutral alignment if they ever change shape willingly (though that should be handwaved away).

Savage Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a) is essentially taking levels in a monster. The lycanthrope template just sucks for PCs.

Flickerdart
2010-05-05, 09:07 AM
But for everything you're talking about, HD + LA = ECL. And Ghost is a broken +2LA (or whatever it is), so I'd disallow that right off the bat.
Ghost is +5 and fine.


does this mean his ECL becomes 9 or 10, or is it only the LA that changes that?

because it does indeed look like hes a 10th level character
Both RHD and LA count. He's a 10th level character.

Flail_master
2010-05-05, 09:09 AM
aaaaah i see, thanks guys, this seem much more balanced to me now

and dont worry about bored PC's, i have a lllooooooooooooong time to sort this out and i intend to make it as awesome as possible... plus high initial levels mean awesome initial fights :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-05-05, 09:13 AM
aaaaah i see, thanks guys, this seem much more balanced to me now

and dont worry about bored PC's, i have a lllooooooooooooong time to sort this out and i intend to make it as awesome as possible... plus high initial levels mean awesome initial fights :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:Be careful with the fights, PCs with racial hitdice and several LA will almost always be weaker than their ECL suggests.

Jeff240sx
2010-05-05, 09:15 AM
The progression is on the Wizards site. Just Google "Lycanthrope Progression" and it has one for Werebear. I can't link it, as WotC is blocked at my work.

Lycanthropy is fun, and while not optimized in any way, a party of similarly non-optimized characters would be good times.

I'd suggest allowing the LA to be bought off, like UA and SRD have (Google "LA Buyoff" and it should appear). It's not worth 9 levels, but if you can buy off the 3 LA, it would be fun, at least, as a 6-level class.

You can also create Savage Progression for Weretiger specifically - use the WotC one as a guide and split up stat boosts and powers.
The caveat of Monsterous Progression is that you can't multiclass out until you finish the progression. I don't know about LA buyoff + savage progression, but per Savage Species, at level 4, he'd be a level 4 Lycanthrope, with 5 more racial levels until he can split off to Fighter.

Flail_master
2010-05-05, 09:15 AM
Be careful with the fights, PCs with racial hitdice and several LA will almost always be weaker than their ECL suggests.

i shall do, im gonna do some test runs at some point actually, but i was just told by our weretiger player, like right now, i called him, that he tested it out and he killed an adult blue dragon himself.... does this seem right or am i needing to look over it some time?

Greenish
2010-05-05, 09:19 AM
he killed an adult blue dragon himself.... does this seem right or am i needing to look over it some time?Depends on his level. Does he even know how to calculate his ECL?

Flickerdart
2010-05-05, 09:20 AM
An adult blue dragon is CR14 and has a vast array of powerful abilities. Even if it just walked up to the Weretiger and started hitting him like an idiot, it should still win.

Flail_master
2010-05-05, 09:21 AM
Depends on his level. Does he even know how to calculate his ECL?

yeah yeah, just told him now, but i think ill go through it with him ASAP so i can get it right

Flail_master
2010-05-05, 09:22 AM
An adult blue dragon is CR14 and has a vast array of powerful abilities. Even if it just walked up to the Weretiger and started hitting him like an idiot, it should still win.

mmm indeed it doesnt seem right to me, as i said i am gonna talk to him tonight, i have a feeling something was miscalculated

Flickerdart
2010-05-05, 09:33 AM
Let's put it this way.

A Weretiger gets +12 STR from his template. Combined with a starting stat of 18, +1 stat boost from levels and a +4 item, that's 35 STR, or a +12 modifier. His Weretiger RHD and Fighter levels give him +5 BAB, and if he's in his Hybrid form he's Large, for a total +21 grapple modifier.

An Adult Blue has a grapple modifier of +27. It can pick up the Weretiger from beyond his threatened range (as a Huge creature, it has better reach), then fly several hundred feet up while battering him and drop him to his doom. The Weretiger can't use weapons, so he'd have to resort to his natural attacks, which the dragon has more of and they are better. The dragon can also breathe electricity on him, doing an average of 54 damage which is more or less the Weretiger's HP.

Assuming the stats above, and a +3 weapon, the Weretiger has +19 to-hit, meaning that he needs to roll a 9 or higher to hit the dragon. The dragon has a +27 to hit. At this level it will most likely hit the Weretiger on a 2. The Dragon has 6 natural attacks compared to the Weretiger's three.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-05, 09:37 AM
The divine minion of anhur (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) should do just fine, as lions and tigers have extremely similar abilities and stats (just use the lion stats and call it a tiger). It's only LA +1, and although he won't technically have a hybrid form, he can fluff it so he does (basically it's his normal form, but furry; if he uses totemist to fill out what would've been his HD and LA, he can gain claws and a bite attack in his standard form and call it good).

So basically,

Divine human (or whatever) minion of Anhur LA +1 Totemist 10

And there you have it. A nice "weretiger" that's extremely close fluff-wise, but much more mechanically viable.

Flail_master
2010-05-05, 09:42 AM
Let's put it this way.

A Weretiger gets +12 STR from his template. Combined with a starting stat of 18, +1 stat boost from levels and a +4 item, that's 35 STR, or a +12 modifier. His Weretiger RHD and Fighter levels give him +5 BAB, and if he's in his Hybrid form he's Large, for a total +21 grapple modifier.

An Adult Blue has a grapple modifier of +27. It can pick up the Weretiger from beyond his threatened range (as a Huge creature, it has better reach), then fly several hundred feet up while battering him and drop him to his doom. The Weretiger can't use weapons, so he'd have to resort to his natural attacks, which the dragon has more of and they are better. The dragon can also breathe electricity on him, doing an average of 54 damage which is more or less the Weretiger's HP.

Assuming the stats above, and a +3 weapon, the Weretiger has +19 to-hit, meaning that he needs to roll a 9 or higher to hit the dragon. The dragon has a +27 to hit. At this level it will most likely hit the Weretiger on a 2. The Dragon has 6 natural attacks compared to the Weretiger's three.

:smalleek: something is DEFINITELY wrong :smalltongue:

as i thought dragons should destroy him specially adult

paddyfool
2010-05-05, 09:59 AM
@Lycanthromancer,

Wow, I'll have to remember Divine Minions for future use. Not quite sure switching the type to Outsider fits your standard weretiger, however; adding the Shapechanger subtype instead would seem like a better bet. An SRD alternative to the Totemist would be the Psychic Warrior, using Expansion + Claws of the Beast to represent channeling his tigerish side for a limited time while in human form.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-05, 10:09 AM
@Lycanthromancer,

Wow, I'll have to remember Divine Minions for future use. Not quite sure switching the type to Outsider fits your standard weretiger, however; adding the Shapechanger subtype instead would seem like a better bet. An SRD alternative to the Totemist would be the Psychic Warrior, using Expansion + Claws of the Beast to represent channeling his tigerish side for a limited time while in human form.How about using shifter (from Eberron) as a base race for divine minion?

paddyfool
2010-05-05, 10:31 AM
A fine thought indeed.

A Shifter Divine Minion LA 1 Barb 3 or Fighter 3 would seem a perfectly decent and straightforward option.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-05, 10:35 AM
A fine thought indeed.

A Shifter Divine Minion LA 1 Barb 3 or Fighter 3 would seem a perfectly decent and straightforward option.Go warblade. Tiger-Claw maneuvers seem to be perfectly in line with this character.