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the geekish one
2010-05-05, 02:34 PM
Any interesting necromantic spells or spell combinations involving necromancy in some fashion? Doesn't matter what book.

Hyooz
2010-05-05, 02:38 PM
Check Heroes of Horror for the Dread Necromancer.

And... all the books with spells.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 02:48 PM
Shivering Touch aka the Cure for the Common Dragon

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 04:26 PM
Shivering Touch aka the Cure for the Common Dragon being run by an unimaginative and subpar DM.

Fixed.

On topic:

Avasculate and Avascular Mass. (Spell Compendium, levels 7 and 8 respectively.) What's more horrifying than making a guy's blood explode out of his veins? Gluing him to the ground with said blood.

Horrid Wilting (Core, 8th). Suboptimal, but I always liked the imagery of drying someone up. I also like how it was attributed to a guy named Abi-Dalzim in previous editions.

Enervation (Core, 4th). Self-explanatory.

Death Dragon (Spell Compendium, 7th). Not optimal, but come on. You create a suit of armor made out of dragon bones and negative energy? You breathe a cone of fear? That's pretty awesome.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-05, 04:33 PM
Fixed.
.

That's...not exactly fair. Shivering Touch one-shots dragons unless the DM specifically takes protection against it via the dragon's innate spellcasting. It's very unlikely that, say, a new DM would have his dragons with custom items of Sheltered Vitality or casting Scintillating Scales before every fight. Does that make them unimaginative and subpar, because they didn't anticipate one specific attack out of the wizard's over 9000 options and counter it beforehand?

More accurate would be


Shivering Touch aka the Cure for the First Common Dragon, and never again after that.

Amphetryon
2010-05-05, 04:36 PM
My initial thought is "all of them."

:smallcool:

JaronK
2010-05-05, 04:36 PM
Animate Dread Warrior, when turned into a Spell Like Ability, is all kinds of nasty. Awaken Undead can lead to tons of fun. And yeah, good ole' Shivering Touch. Most Dragons at lower levels can't even cast Scintilating Scales.

JaronK

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 04:40 PM
Even with Scintillating Scales you can land a touch attack. It's hardly foolproof. True Strike, Reach Spell, Surge of Fortune (via Limited Wish) etc.

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 04:52 PM
Even with Scintillating Scales you can land a touch attack. It's hardly foolproof. True Strike, Reach Spell, Surge of Fortune (via Limited Wish) etc.

Neither is Reach Spell. If the dragon's just sitting on the ground, then maybe the Shivering Touch will take the dragon out. The wizard readied an action to Shivering Touch the dragon if it comes within range? Drop a boulder on him.

While they're not the most agile flyers, they've got the best move speed in core. Even hasted flying wizards will have a hard time catching up with them.

Now if it's just another stereotypical Smaug battle with the dragon trapped in a cave too small to fly in, then Shivering Touch is your dragon killer spell.

Darrin
2010-05-05, 04:55 PM
Necrotic Skull Bomb in... Champions of Ruin, I think. 5th level spell, swift action to cast, area-effect enervation.

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 05:06 PM
That's...not exactly fair. Shivering Touch one-shots dragons unless the DM specifically takes protection against it via the dragon's innate spellcasting. It's very unlikely that, say, a new DM would have his dragons with custom items of Sheltered Vitality or casting Scintillating Scales before every fight. Does that make them unimaginative and subpar, because they didn't anticipate one specific attack out of the wizard's over 9000 options and counter it beforehand?

More accurate would be

Okay, I admit that might be more accurate and that my statement was unfair. And maybe I shouldn't blame new DMs for all the ridiculous Smaug-type dragon battles that fantasy novels like featuring.

I just really don't like the generalization that "Shivering Touch is THE dragon-killer, lol" because quite frankly, it takes a very specific set of circumstances to work:
1. The DM has never heard of the spell before and/or has not worked to ban it/nerf it.
2. The caster actually has it prepared. (And thus somehow has foreknowledge of the dragon battle, since it's not always effective to get the wizard into even Reach Spell range with something that has enough Dex to survive a single casting of Shivering Touch)
3. The caster can somehow get close to the dragon/has Reach spell and is close enough to use it.
4. The dragon just sits around or is sleeping.
5. The dragon has no protection against it of any kind (including the Cold subtype immunity).

Of course, that doesn't make the spell any less badly-written or broken (since it has the damage/duration contradiction), but it's really not the "oh no, I can never run dragons again" spell.

Akal Saris
2010-05-05, 05:16 PM
Any important dragon should probably also have elite or PC-level stats as well, probably bumping the dex to a 14 or 16. Though that just means you'd want true strike and an empowered, maximized shivering touch.

Other cool necromantic spells: I like Animate Dead and Command Undead :smallbiggrin:

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-05, 05:26 PM
Clutch. Of. Orcus. You telekinetically crush your enemy's heart, and if you drop them to 0/-10 their scorched, blackened, smoking heart appears in your hand. That's not a replica or an illusion, their actual heart, barbecued by your hate warps into your hand in front of his/your allies.

I feel this qualifies as a cool necromantic spell :smallcool:

Also really like Waves of Exhaustion. Just the image of a guy with a skull topped staff whispering dark words and everyone within range just collapsing in a heap under the weight of his evil.

Also Raise Dead and co are pretty good Necromancy spells (they're not Conjuration, I don't care what the book says :smalltongue:).

Amiel
2010-05-05, 05:27 PM
I distinctly remember many necromantic spells in the BoVD; heartclutch. I'm AFB at the moment.

CrypticOcean
2010-05-05, 05:49 PM
Necrotic Skull Bomb-5th Level Wizard/Cleric Spell, Champions of Ruin, p. 32.

All of the necrotic threat of an Ennervation in a twenty foot spread, with a Close range.

EDIT: And it seems I missed the one post that mentioned it. Curses.

How about Ravage to make up for it? Same book, pg. 33, 7th level Cleric. 10d6 Vile Damage in a 10 ft, 40 ft high Cylinder. Not quite as impressive as Necrotic Skull Bomb, but the description of a soul-rending column of black energy is quite appropriately Necromantic.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 05:58 PM
Neither is Reach Spell. If the dragon's just sitting on the ground, then maybe the Shivering Touch will take the dragon out. The wizard readied an action to Shivering Touch the dragon if it comes within range? Drop a boulder on him.

He can't do that if he doesn't know the Wizard is there - Hide From Dragons, SpC. One casting covers the whole party, even.

Back on topic: I think Opalescent Glare should get an honorable mention - it's the only Necromancy spell I know with the [Good] descriptor.

CrypticOcean
2010-05-05, 06:03 PM
Back on topic: I think Opalescent Glare should get an honorable mention - it's the only Necromancy spell I know with the [Good] descriptor.

Sicken Evil, Phoenix Fire, Sanctify the Wicked, Healing Touch, Affliction, Righteous Glare, and Last Judgement are all Necromancy spells with the [Good] descriptor as well, although those all come from the Book of Exalted Deeds; so, it would go without saying that most of the spells have the [Good] descriptor.

Siosilvar
2010-05-05, 06:07 PM
Clutch. Of. Orcus. You telekinetically crush your enemy's heart, and if you drop them to 0/-10 their scorched, blackened, smoking heart appears in your hand. That's not a replica or an illusion, their actual heart, barbecued by your hate warps into your hand in front of his/your allies.

So... any warnings against using this on Colossal creatures?

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 06:08 PM
I forgot Sanctify, and didn't know of the rest - I didn't look through BoED before posting :smalltongue: OG is outside BoED though, so it still warrants mention.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-05, 06:11 PM
So... any warnings against using this on Colossal creatures?

No there aren't actually. I guess if you do use it on a bigger creature you crush it so much it shrinks down and fits in your hand.

Or maybe if your DM is awesome enough you can wear it as a suit and chase kids around yelling in Abyssal :smallbiggrin:

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 07:07 PM
He can't do that if he doesn't know the Wizard is there - Hide From Dragons, SpC. One casting covers the whole party, even.


That's already approaching Schrödinger's Spellbook territory and again assumes that the situation is perfect for the Wizard's party and not in the dragon's favor. It's also a 7th level spell. By that time the Wizard doesn't need Shivering Touch to kill a dragon.


Clutch. Of. Orcus. You telekinetically crush your enemy's heart, and if you drop them to 0/-10 their scorched, blackened, smoking heart appears in your hand. That's not a replica or an illusion, their actual heart, barbecued by your hate warps into your hand in front of his/your allies.

I feel this qualifies as a cool necromantic spell :smallcool:


Amen. Forgot that one. In the same vein, Heart Ripper. It's an assassin spell--can't remember if the Wizard gets it too.

Crafty Cultist
2010-05-05, 07:21 PM
Unliving wepon out of the BoVD gives makes your undead minions into explosives that detonate when you wish it or when it takes damage. and multiple corpse-bombs can trigger a chain reaction.

Blackfire out of complete arcane creates an unholy black flame that burns the target's soul to nothing, and it can spread to other creatures.

finally Greater consumptive field from libris mortis lets you automatically suck the life out of any nearby creature with 9 or fewer hit points (ala death knell).

those are my suggestions anyway. hope I've helped

The Glyphstone
2010-05-05, 07:25 PM
Heart Ripper's fun, but it doesn't have the same raw hate that Clutch of Orcus has. Air-punching someone's heart through the back of their torso is the sort of thing you'd attribute to a crazy kung-fu movie...teleporting someone's blackened heart into your hand has KALI MA written all over it.:smallcool:


Blade of Pain and Fear might be worth an honorable mention. It's not very good, but it's a conjured longsword made of screaming ghostly faces that makes enemies freak out when they get hit.

OldTrees
2010-05-05, 09:20 PM
Command Undead [Core 2nd] (combined with Extend a Chain metamagic as possible)

This is The finite Undead Army spell. (as previously mentioned Animate Dread Warrior spell like ability is The infinite Undead Army spell)

Xallace
2010-05-05, 09:27 PM
I like Touch of the Graveborn, myself. High level, sure, but 10d6 damage as a touch every round per CL, possible ability damage, and if I recall, it controls undead you hit with it. Awesome.

Prodan
2010-05-05, 09:29 PM
Necropotence is awesome.

Optimystik
2010-05-05, 10:03 PM
That's already approaching Schrödinger's Spellbook territory and again assumes that the situation is perfect for the Wizard's party and not in the dragon's favor. It's also a 7th level spell. By that time the Wizard doesn't need Shivering Touch to kill a dragon.

How in the hells is preparing Hide from Dragons for a dragon encounter an example of "Schrodinger's Spellbook?'

There's a difference between a wizard being "crazy prepared" and simply having common sense.


So... any warnings against using this on Colossal creatures?

The spell shrivels the heart up, so you could make a case for it being small enough to fit in your hand regardless of its original size.

JaronK
2010-05-06, 03:27 AM
Neither is Reach Spell. If the dragon's just sitting on the ground, then maybe the Shivering Touch will take the dragon out. The wizard readied an action to Shivering Touch the dragon if it comes within range? Drop a boulder on him.

While they're not the most agile flyers, they've got the best move speed in core. Even hasted flying wizards will have a hard time catching up with them.

Spectral Hand and a Phantasmal Steed to get you close enough. The Wizard doesn't have to get all that close, and the steed is plenty fast. The usual attack set would be Celerity + Spectral Hand + Shivering Touch, in the Surprise Round. Maximize via a Lesser Wand of Maximize. Or if you're a Factotum, Spectral Hand + Cunning Surge + Shivering Touch, adding Int to the dex damage, and using simple hiding and moving silently with Darkstalker to close range. These can be done at level 7 or 8, respectively.

JaronK

Runestar
2010-05-06, 03:48 AM
Necrotic skull bomb allows a fort save to negate, but as a swift action, it is a no-brainer to spam. :smallamused:

Ray of enfeeblement - one of the few low lv spells which continues to remain useful even at higher lvs. Empower for more fun (since the +5 gets multiplied as well) for an average of -12 str penalty. Stack with other str penalties such as waves of exhaustion for even more fun! :smallbiggrin:

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-06, 05:52 AM
Which book takes priority if spell descriptions differ? Because re: Clutch of Orcus the Spell Compendium says it's 1d12/round, whereas Libris Mortis says 1d3/round. Really hope it's the former.

Also just saw another one called Bite of the King. Basically you open your mouth, and it just keeps opening. You then swallow the enemy whole and let your supernatural body crush them to death.

All very cool, but this one gets my vote for a very specific line in its description:

Of the victim, there is no visible sign the swallowed subject exists in a temporary “stomach” dimension.

That's right, the spell not only lets you swallow a gargantuan creature whole, but it sends it to a specially created alternate dimension within your stomach.

Can you say "oh hell yea-OH MY GOD! What the HELL did you just do!! :eek: Stay away from me you freak!! AAAAHH!!!!"

Runestar
2010-05-06, 06:00 AM
Which book takes priority if spell descriptions differ? Because re: Clutch of Orcus the Spell Compendium says it's 1d12/round, whereas Libris Mortis says 1d3/round. Really hope it's the former.

Libris mortis: First printed October 2004.
Spell compendium: First printed December 2005.

I will let you connect the dots yourself. :smallamused:

peacenlove
2010-05-06, 06:05 AM
Consume Essence from Tome of Magic.
Because killing them once is not enough, they must do your bidding and die again.
Runner Ups: Soulbind (PHB) / Necrotic Termination (Libris Mortis). Sure you can kill something with magic but why not ensure it REALLY stays dead? :smallbiggrin:
Magic Jar: Fooling PC's since 2nd edition. :smallcool:

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-06, 06:05 AM
Libris mortis: First printed October 2004.
Spell compendium: First printed December 2005.

I will let you connect the dots yourself. :smallamused:

Wewt!! Thanks.

AslanCross
2010-05-06, 07:21 AM
How in the hells is preparing Hide from Dragons for a dragon encounter an example of "Schrodinger's Spellbook?'

There's a difference between a wizard being "crazy prepared" and simply having common sense.


It assumes the Wizard has foreknowledge of the dragon encounter. Enormous firebreathing lizards they may be, but dragons have ways of ambushing the PCs too.

We already know it's a foregone conclusion that a prepared wizard can take apart anything. The question is if he's prepared.

I'm sorry if I'm not being clear here, but my point is this: On its own, assuming there wizard did not specifically prepare for a dragon encounter and assuming that he likes keeping it ready, Shivering Touch is not a sure-fire way of taking down a dragon.



Spectral Hand and a Phantasmal Steed to get you close enough. The Wizard doesn't have to get all that close, and the steed is plenty fast. The usual attack set would be Celerity + Spectral Hand + Shivering Touch, in the Surprise Round. Maximize via a Lesser Wand of Maximize. Or if you're a Factotum, Spectral Hand + Cunning Surge + Shivering Touch, adding Int to the dex damage, and using simple hiding and moving silently with Darkstalker to close range. These can be done at level 7 or 8, respectively.

JaronK


If the Wizard's trump card needs that much support to work, then it's not the "easy kill" spell that it's being made out to be.

At that rate, the wizard's just better off casting a single spell to cripple the dragon--say, wall of force in the dragon's flight path. The wall is invisible, and blindsense only detects creatures. Dragon crashes into wall--perhaps not taking damage--but it falls out of the sky.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 07:28 AM
It assumes the Wizard has foreknowledge of the dragon encounter.

If he doesn't, he probably won't have Shivering Touch prepared either, rendering this entire side-discussion moot.


We already know it's a foregone conclusion that a prepared wizard can take apart anything. The question is if he's prepared.

Right, and Shivering Touch is one tool of the prepared wizard. That's my point.


If the Wizard's trump card needs that much support to work, then it's not the "easy kill" spell that it's being made out to be.

If it lands, the dragon is as good as dead. How many 3rd-level spells can you say that about?

Mr.Bookworm
2010-05-06, 07:47 AM
Grim Revenge. Your opponent's hand rips itself off of his arm, becomes a mini-wight, and then tries to kill him.

Totally awesome.

I also like Eternity of... something. Torture, maybe? The one that keeps your opponent alive forever while keeping them in mind-blowingly awful pain the entire time.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-06, 07:52 AM
Grim Revenge. Your opponent's hand rips itself off of his arm, becomes a mini-wight, and then tries to kill him.

Totally awesome....

That's amazing. Even if they win the fight their missing a hand. Will be using this in the future :evilgrin:

Runestar
2010-05-06, 07:58 AM
There are quite a number of ways a wizard can remain prepared, not least the few ways of spontaneously casting spells.

You have alacritous cogitation from CM, uncanny forethought from exemplars of evil and spontaneous spell from PGTF.

Then there are spells which simulate other spells such as the shadow spells and limited wish (which can replicate more dangerous spells such as greater geas).

There is also rary's arcane conversion, which lets you exchange one prepared spell for another. Spell engine lets me swap out my prepared spells for a fresh list.

The days when a wizard was stuck with the spells he prepared for the day are long gone. :smallamused:

AslanCross
2010-05-06, 08:00 AM
Right, and Shivering Touch is one tool of the prepared wizard. That's my point.

Not arguing with that. However, it then stands that the dogmatic "cure for the common dragon" comment earlier is not without qualification.



If it lands, the dragon is as good as dead. How many 3rd-level spells can you say that about?

Again, not without qualification. If it takes several actions to cast spells to set up the instant-kill spell, there are more efficient ways of dealing with the dragon.

I do not dispute its lethality. I dispute the assumptions behind its reputation as a guaranteed kill regardless of circumstances.

Runestar
2010-05-06, 08:11 AM
Again, not without qualification. If it takes several actions to cast spells to set up the instant-kill spell, there are more efficient ways of dealing with the dragon.

Such as? Archmage with arcane reach. Quickened true-strike. Acquire shivering touch either via spontaneous casting or limited wish. Arcane mastery to take care of sr (since dragons tend to have sr less than 10+cr).

Game over in the first round.

Is there a more efficient way I am not aware of? I suppose there is always dominate monster...:smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 08:17 AM
I don't recall saying "regardless of circumstances" anywhere in my posts. Nor did I say it was guaranteed. "Cure for the common dragon" is of course a generalization - that's what "common" means.

Anyway, it seems we're on the same page now, so back to topic.

I'd say one of the cooler ones has to be Magic Jar. It's a very unique effect.

AslanCross
2010-05-06, 09:00 AM
Going for coolness and not raw optimization:

Undead Torch (3rd, SC), for a low level spell, is pretty cool. Tired of the same old skeletons and zombies? Set them on fire! And profit!

Arrow of Bone (7th, SC) also pretty cool. Basically a Finger of Death on an arrow.

Heart of Stone (8th, SC). It's not a figure of speech, folks.

Doc Roc
2010-05-06, 11:08 AM
Any of the necrotic cyst spells, particularly in conjunction with some DC boosting mojo. My preference is Tainted Scholar, naturally.

Obi-Juan
2010-05-06, 01:51 PM
I adore Heartfreeze from Frostburn. Essentially, and insta-kill. Fatality!

Morrolan
2010-05-08, 04:29 PM
Just persist Consumptive Field, Greater

The Tygre
2010-05-08, 04:43 PM
There's an epic Necromancy spell in Champions of Ruin that I love. Can't remember the name, but basically.

1.) Gather a pile of corpses
2.) Draw magic circle around them
3.) Burn the corpses
4.) Chant spell
5.) The smoke from the corpse-fire turns into clouds
6.) The clouds rain poisonous acid
7.) Any corpse or anything killed by the acid rain rises as a ghoul under your service.

Because this is Epic magic. Screw balance; it's about being metal as ****.

the geekish one
2010-05-09, 11:50 AM
Also Raise Dead and co are pretty good Necromancy spells (they're not Conjuration, I don't care what the book says :smalltongue:).
You're right, but the book agrees with you.