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View Full Version : Goliath dread commando, need build advice



Darius Rae
2010-05-05, 07:39 PM
Currently I am working on a goliath free runner who uses harpoons and heavy armor.

This is what I have so far.
Ranger/Exotic Weapon Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Dread Commando 5/Shadowdancer 2

The ranger level was only for the skill points for hide and move silently. Because of the guerilla warrior feat hide and move silently will always cost one point. He will be taking the epic destiny "mythic shadow" which increases the size of precision strike dice.

Are there any other PRCs or classes that could finish out this build? Hulking hurler will probably be a dip for throw anything. Anything that adds precision damage would be good, but it runs into problems with the heavy armor.

Any build advice will be appreciated as long as there is NO Tome Of Battle and I would like to avoid casters.

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 07:51 PM
I'm not so sure if the Goliath necessarily qualifies for Hulking Hurler--Powerful Build is rather specific in its effects. I know you're not allowing Tome of Battle, but the Bloodstorm Blade does not use the maneuver mechanic and can be easily divorced from its maneuver prerequisites. It's worth looking into since it's a great deal saner than Hulking Hurler.

How about fighter levels for the bonus feats? Getting fighter levels for Brutal Throw and Power Throw work well. On the other hand, don't you want to max out your hide and move silently?

Cieyrin
2010-05-05, 07:58 PM
I'm not so sure if the Goliath necessarily qualifies for Hulking Hurler--Powerful Build is rather specific in its effects.

I don't see why a Goliath Hulking Hurler couldn't be viable, as Powerful Build qualifies them for feats that require Size Large, so qualifying for PRCs that require the same isn't exactly much of a stretch.

Darius Rae
2010-05-05, 08:00 PM
On the other hand, don't you want to max out your hide and move silently?

That is why I only took two levels of the Exocitist variant of fighter. It gives me 2 feats and 4 EWPs. With an int of 10 there will be enough skill points for hide and move silently (because of guerilla warrior)

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 08:03 PM
I don't see why a Goliath Hulking Hurler couldn't be viable, as Powerful Build qualifies them for feats that require Size Large, so qualifying for PRCs that require the same isn't exactly much of a stretch.

The only feats that say that Powerful Build can take the place of being Large are in Races of Stone, as far as I can tell. There doesn't seem to be a general or retroactive rule even in Races of Stone. The feats are specific exceptions by RAW.

I do admit it is a reasonable houserule, but that's DM approval territory.


That is why I only took two levels of the Exocitist variant of fighter. It gives me 2 feats and 4 EWPs. With an int of 10 there will be enough skill points for hide and move silently (because of gorilla warrior)

Ah, alright then. If you can max it out with that build, I guess that's pretty good. On the other hand, wouldn't you want increase your sudden strike damage by adding Rogue levels? Sure, you have to throw within 30 feet, but you have Sudden Strike already. The extra skill points also come in handy.
Not so sure what your general concept for the build is. How does your character right?

Also, nitpick:
http://atomiq.org/archives/guerilla_gorilla.gif

Cieyrin
2010-05-05, 08:08 PM
The only feats that say that Powerful Build can take the place of being Large are in Races of Stone, as far as I can tell. There doesn't seem to be a general or retroactive rule even in Races of Stone. The feats are specific exceptions by RAW.

I do admit it is a reasonable houserule, but that's DM approval territory.

Damn WotC and their poor editing. :smallsigh:

Thurbane
2010-05-05, 09:23 PM
If you have access to ToM, the Tooth of Savnok (in the Pact Magic section) allows you to move at full normal rate in medium or heavy armor.

In fact, if you use ToM, 5 levels in Binder (or 3 with the Improved Binding feat) will let you bind Paimon, who is great for any mobility/skirmish based build. Dance of Death allows you 1/5 rounds to attack every creature you move past at your base speed. Paimon also grants +4 untyped bonus to DEX, Uncanny Dodge (which would become Improved Uncanny Dodge with Barb 2)and the Whirlwind Attack feat (without all the crappy prereqs).

Darius Rae
2010-05-05, 09:35 PM
On the other hand, wouldn't you want increase your sudden strike damage by adding Rogue levels?

Also, nitpick:


Guerilla(im a scientist not a typist)

and

I looked at Rogue levels, but the loss of BAB and hit points put me off. Would you suggest dropping barbarian all together? I want a hit and run character who has lots of hit points for when he does stupid things (jumping off of cliffs, grappling dragons, grappling gelatinous cubes...)

Like one of these guys, but bigger and not opposed to beating the enemy with a stick.
http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Tau_XV25_Stealth_Suit_3.gif


If you have access to ToM, the Tooth of Savnok (in the Pact Magic section) allows you to move at full normal rate in medium or heavy armor...


I would like to avoid magic(and binding), but I will look into this.

gbprime
2010-05-05, 09:52 PM
I second having 3 levels of binder for Paimon. Plus binder is quite versatile in case you want to do something DIFFERENT that day.

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 10:17 PM
Guerilla(im a scientist not a typist)

Always a good idea to keep our spelling correct, in any case. :smallsmile:




I looked at Rogue levels, but the loss of BAB and hit points put me off. Would you suggest dropping barbarian all together? I want a hit and run character who has lots of hit points for when he does stupid things (jumping off of cliffs, grappling dragons, grappling gelatinous cubes...)

Like one of these guys, but bigger and not opposed to beating the enemy with a stick.
http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Tau_XV25_Stealth_Suit_3.gif

Well, BAB loss can be somewhat remedied with fractional BAB growth (see the d20.srd's variant rules section), but that's subject to DM approval.

If you want to grapple things a lot and your DM allows you to qualify for Large-only PrCs and feats with Powerful build, get War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook). It has d12 HD, no BAB growth, but gives you +2 to Strength every level. You also get to throw rocks really hard. Really, really hard.

Darius Rae
2010-05-05, 10:31 PM
I think that I will take war hulk after we hit epic. Binder probably will not be the thing for me, but I will see if someone has the Tome of Magic so I can get the Tooth.

As for armor... Dread Commando -4 ACP, Mithral -3 ACP, Nimbleness -2 ACP = -9 ACP(and +3 to max dex bonus, but that will not matter to much) I will probably be using heavy plate or mountain plate if I can find a spare feat.

AslanCross
2010-05-05, 10:35 PM
I think that I will take war hulk after we hit epic. Binder probably will not be the thing for me, but I will see if someone has the Tome of Magic so I can get the Tooth.


Why not take it before epic and then just take Legendary Dreadnought for epic? (Also, good luck with epic play :smalleek: )

Darius Rae
2010-05-06, 12:55 AM
So War Hulk looked good until I checked what "no time to think" requires. In order to have levels in shadowdancer (and thus Hide in Plain Sight) a character needs ranks in preform(dance). Track and the trap breaking abilities that would be gained from the levels in Ranger and Barbarian would also be lost because they are keyed off of wis. I realize that that gives up 10 points of damage, or 20 after a 2 handed power attack.

Are there any classes like Blackguard, that have Hide, Move Silently, and precision damage while armored? While it is not RAW or probably even RAI, would it be reasonable to be allowed to add skirmish damage due to the heavy armor having zero ACP?

Edit: Is hiding and moving silently even allowed while raging? Is there any point in taking barbarian other than for pounce?

Cieyrin
2010-05-06, 06:29 PM
Edit: Is hiding and moving silently even allowed while raging?


While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function.

Bolded for emphasis. It would appear you can't stealth while raging.

Darius Rae
2010-05-06, 07:16 PM
Would it be better for me to drop Barbarian and take more levels of Fighter and Ranger instead? If I stuck with Barbarian, the one rage that I would have could be saved for only when it was needed.

The Fighter variant that I am taking gives up martial weapons for 4 exotic weapons. Other than harpoon, what would be good for a thrower? How do throwers generally afford the cost of magic throwing items and full round attacks?

Edit: Rangers can't use their combat style in medium armor, so I will not be taking any more than one level of Ranger.

imperialspectre
2010-05-06, 07:36 PM
The Fighter variant that I am taking gives up martial weapons for 4 exotic weapons. Other than harpoon, what would be good for a thrower? How do throwers generally afford the cost of magic throwing items and full round attacks?


They don't. Thrown weapons generally suck horribly if used without Bloodstorm Blade, and your "no ToB" limitation kind of screws up that option.

You might try the Returning property, although it'll get damn expensive, and Brutal Throw (feat from CWar) to let you use Strength to calculate both attack and damage rolls with thrown weapons.

Person_Man
2010-05-07, 09:36 AM
Half-Ogre (+2 LA IIRC, Races of Destiny) is Large, and thus qualifies for Hulking Hurler or Warhulk.

The Collar of Umbral Metamophosis gives you the Dark template (Tome of Magic pg 156) which grants Hide in Plain Site and other goodies. HiPS is also accessible via easy to get (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) via one level of Warlock or Dragonfire Adept and a feat. Throw in the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) so you can hide from Scent and Tremorsense and whatnot, and you're set. But keep in mind that if your enemy doesn't have Blindsight or True Seeing, a wand of Swift Invisibility (which a Ranger can use without UMD) works just as well as HiPS in combat, can be stored in your weapon for constant use in a wand chamber (Dungeonscape), and is dirt cheap.

Standard thrown weapon builds usually include some combination of Master Thrower 5, Bloodstorm Blade 4, and/or Hulking Hurler 1. Do you need their combos explains?

You should also know that guerrilla tactics are generally a bad idea in D&D unless you are playing a solo campaign, or everyone in the party has the same build goals as you. For example, let's say you want to ambush a orcish camp, kill their leader, and escape before 100 angry orcs mook rush you to death. Does everyone in your party have a good Hide and Move Silently check or the ability to use Invisibility and Silence? Does everyone have a high movement rate needed to get in and out quickly? Does everyone have the HiPS and/or magic needed to escape? Or even in mundane combat - if you use HiPS to escape when things get hairy, what happens to your allies who can't. How are you going to use hit and run tactics in a dungeon, which severely limits your movement and lines of sight?

Which is not to say you shouldn't play a "Skills + Kills" build. Just be aware of it's limitations.

Cieyrin
2010-05-08, 12:51 PM
They don't. Thrown weapons generally suck horribly if used without Bloodstorm Blade, and your "no ToB" limitation kind of screws up that option.

You might try the Returning property, although it'll get damn expensive, and Brutal Throw (feat from CWar) to let you use Strength to calculate both attack and damage rolls with thrown weapons.

Gauntlets of Throwing (MIC) may be a better alternative, if limited, as it provides Throwing and Returning to whatever ammunition you use. I'm away from that book but I vaguely recall a usage limit, though I think you simply activate and you get it for the entire round or some such. There's also some variation in Magic of Faerun, IIRC, that may not have that silly usage limit, though don't hold me to that.

Keld Denar
2010-05-08, 01:11 PM
Other than harpoon, what would be good for a thrower?

Orc Shotput. Its mechanically a Greatsword with a range increment.



How do throwers generally afford the cost of magic throwing items and full round attacks?


Have a friendly caster chain GMW. He'll affect CL weapons. Its not an amazing idea, but its better than buying 20+ +1 items.

Darius Rae
2010-05-08, 06:04 PM
It looks like the campaign is going to be low magic anyway, so a bunch of +1 weapons will probably be used.