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Coidzor
2010-05-05, 08:27 PM
So, yeah, one of my friends is looking to me for advice on what class to pick for his first class and from our discussion he seemed to favor a controller with some ability to act as a striker as well.

I'm not really sure what to tell him.

Any class-feature/feat recommendations would be appreciated as well.

Ed1: This is for an RPGA Living Forgotten Realms thing, as unfortunately, that's the only thing I could find that's accepting new players at all. Quite annoyed by that, actually.

So the character will be starting at level one.

He really does not want to do melee or worry about buffing up the rest of the party.

New Q: As it stands, I'll probably point him towards a ranged rogue when he goes to build his character, if that's not too horrible of a way to point him?

senrath
2010-05-05, 08:29 PM
A Wizard would probably be a good choice.

Glyphic
2010-05-05, 08:38 PM
Wrathful invoker.

Or Panther druid!

Kylarra
2010-05-05, 08:41 PM
I like my swarm druid personally, but I've always wanted to try an invoker.

Jinn Master
2010-05-05, 08:43 PM
Invokers are awesome, but if he just wants to be a ****, try having him be an illusion wizard.

Some of the spells are just rediculous- Visions of Avarice, anyone?

Saintjebus
2010-05-05, 08:45 PM
It depends on what you mean by controller. Wizard or invoker is the classic choice, with controller being defined as AoE and status effects. For a new player, however, I would give him a sword and board fighter with all movement powers(slide, push, pull, etc.). It is surprisingly good at controlling where the enemies are, and where they are able to move. It also may satisfy the craving for "I want to say where they can go!"

ryzouken
2010-05-05, 08:49 PM
I'm a fan of the XBox 360's controller. It's got a nice, chunky build that fits my larger hands fairly easily, and the triggers feel better than the PS3's shoulders. The thumbsticks have proven less than impressive, the plastic on mine is starting to wear away from frequent use, so if you can find some protective wraps that feel good, I recommend them. Definitely look into the rechargeable battery stuff. I'm still using stock launch controllers and the toll they've eaten in AA's has definitely been noticeable. I'm not even going to touch the Wiimote (mostly because I don't have to!), which may well be one of the worst designed peripherals since the powerglove.

As far as features go, you can't go wrong with a large HDD size. Beyond that, wireless networking capability out of the box is nice, but if you don't have a wireless access point/router you'll not care too much. It's mostly a matter of getting the most bang for your buck. The rest of your post confuses me, since it doesn't seem to be about video games at all.


Your buddy should do his own thinking. Hand him the book(s) and let him read the classes and make his own decision. Otherwise you're going to be doing it for him for far longer than you'll care to.

Toric
2010-05-05, 08:52 PM
It depends on what you mean by controller. Wizard or invoker is the classic choice, with controller being defined as AoE and status effects. For a new player, however, I would give him a sword and board fighter with all movement powers(slide, push, pull, etc.). It is surprisingly good at controlling where the enemies are, and where they are able to move. It also may satisfy the craving for "I want to say where they can go!"

So basically a warlord. I've always regarded it as the Chessmaster class. Good controller abilities, and decent melee capability. If he'd rather play somebody with ranged capabilities (other than just being a Skirmish Warlord), I'd recommend either Wizard or Seeker.

erikun
2010-05-05, 09:16 PM
I'm afraid I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Are you looking for a class recommendation for your friend? Looking for advice to tell your friend? Looking for a build?

Wizards can do plenty of damage if they feel like it. So can Invokers, for that matter. Warlocks are strikers who have a number of controllery powers. Sorcerers are strikers with big AoE attacks, although not much else in the territory of control.

Warlords move allies around, which can act a lot like controlling if you use it right.

Swordgleam
2010-05-05, 09:19 PM
Rogues can be built as a controller-y (if you take all the push/pull/slide powers) and warlocks naturally lean towards controller. Since strikers are generally considered easier to play than controllers and your buddy wants to play both, starting him out on a rogue or a warlock might not be a bad idea.

Thajocoth
2010-05-05, 09:25 PM
I'm playing a swarm druid... It turns out to be a Controller that's also very Defender with a touch of Leader. Striking's the one thing this build doesn't have.

For a new player, I recommend an actual striker. They're simple and easy to learn the rules with.

If you really want a Controller that can deal some damage though, grab a Wizard and pick some elements to rock between. Like frost & fire or thunder & lightning. You can get some decent damage by getting feats that add to one element whenever you use the other. Take the Daily that gives you Magic Missile 1/round as a minor and combine it with the feats that boost arcane At-Will powers... You're gonna need to basically trick any Controller class into dealing decent damage, as that's not really what Controllers usually do. They deal wide unfocused damage to everything. If you have a lot of minions, your striker will deal a ton of damage to 1 and kill it, but your controller will take them all out. If you have a solo, the controller works to hold him down while the rest of the party beats on him.

Another option here is the Psion. Dominating enemies to attack one another every round means you're as strong as the the enemy with the lowest Will. Brutes don't often have high Wills...

Mando Knight
2010-05-05, 09:25 PM
You can also go "nuke Wizard," a build reviled by optimizers everywhere for its odd effectiveness.

1.) Staff of Ruin (Adventurer's Vault)
2.) Genasi with Elemental Empowerment (Arcane Power)
3.) Your favorite Superior Staff (PHB3)

Coidzor
2010-05-05, 10:58 PM
You can also go "nuke Wizard," a build reviled by optimizers everywhere for its odd effectiveness.

1.) Staff of Ruin (Adventurer's Vault)
2.) Genasi with Elemental Empowerment (Arcane Power)
3.) Your favorite Superior Staff (PHB3)

So, when does that start other than 1st level with race selection?

Also, considering the response, thinking about pointing him at Rogue, Wizard, & Warlock to get him started.

Mando Knight
2010-05-06, 12:30 AM
So, when does that start other than 1st level with race selection?

1st level, with race, power, and ability score selection. You need decent Strength to power Elemental Empowerment, which is slightly demented for a Wizard. With Elemental Empowerment, the next step is to pick powers with the Fire, Acid, Cold, Poison, Lightning, and Thunder keywords for the damage boost, such as Ray of Frost, Scorching Burst, and Thunderwave.

Staff of Defense is recommended for syncing with the Staff of Ruin, which isn't quite required but is really nice. After 1st level, it's mostly picking feats that let you bump up the damage, and Wizards get some nice ones for area spells. The only Superior Staffs that really jump out at me for the build are the Quickbeam and Accurate Staffs. Quickbeam boosts Thunderwave and other Thunder powers, while Accurate makes it more likely those attacks will hit. Add in Dual Implement Spellcaster when you've got cash to spare and you can throw in a wand or something to boost your damage even more.

Here's a level 1 Stormsoul version.
level 1
Genasi, Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Staff of Defense
Elemental Manifestation: Stormsoul

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 12, Dex 13, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 12, Dex 13, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 15 Fort: 14 Reflex: 14 Will: 13
HP: 22 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +9, History +9, Nature +8, Religion +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Bluff -1, Diplomacy -1, Dungeoneering +1, Endurance +3, Heal +1, Insight +1, Intimidate -1, Perception +1, Stealth +1, Streetwise -1, Thievery +1, Athletics +3

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Elemental Empowerment

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Wizard at-will 1: Ray of Frost
Wizard encounter 1: Staffstrike Corrosion
Wizard daily 1: Rolling Thunder
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Acid Arrow

ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Staff Implement
RITUALS
Tenser's Floating Disk, Comprehend Language, Dowsing Rod

Someone mentioned the Force Missile Mage, which is another weird build, but it can work. This one's an Eladrin that uses the Dragontooth Wand to boost his damage and increase his spells' accuracy.
level 1
Eladrin, Wizard
Arcane Implement Mastery: Wand of Accuracy

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 10.


AC: 14 Fort: 12 Reflex: 14 Will: 14
HP: 24 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +4, Arcana +11, Nature +6, Religion +9, Dungeoneering +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Bluff, Diplomacy, Endurance +2, Heal +1, History +6, Insight +1, Intimidate, Perception +1, Stealth +3, Streetwise, Thievery +3

FEATS
Wizard: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Superior Implement Training (Dragontooth wand)

POWERS
Wizard at-will 1: Magic Missile
Wizard at-will 1: Scorching Burst
Wizard encounter 1: Empowering Lightning
Wizard daily 1: Wizard's Fury
Wizard daily 1 Spellbook: Horrid Whispers

ITEMS
Spellbook, Adventurer's Kit, Dragontooth wand
RITUALS
Dowsing Rod, Comprehend Language, Tenser's Floating Disk

Kurald Galain
2010-05-06, 01:22 AM
You can also go "nuke Wizard," a build reviled by optimizers everywhere for its odd effectiveness.
Yes. Also, do not underestimate the power of Enlarge Spell. Wizards have numerous blast-1 effects; enlarging those almost triples the area affected. The fact that enlarging reduces your damage-per-target is more than compensated for by hitting multiple targets. Attacking four targets with a Color Spray does damage that can put strikers to shame.

Note that if you're using a staff (and you should, for a damaging wizard build) then Weapon Focus and Sybaris Shard also add to your damage. If you want, you can use an off-hand Subtle Staff for another boost, and pick up Dual Implement Spellcaster eventually.

However, even when using Elemental Empowerment, don't just pick any power that has the matching damage type. Ray of Frost and Acid Arrow are mediocre to poor choices even for a genasi; Scorching Burst and Flaming Sphere are much better.

Amphetryon
2010-05-06, 05:46 AM
Forgive me if I missed the suggestion being posted already, but a Halfling Feylock makes a quite decent Controller/Striker.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-06, 06:16 AM
So, yeah, one of my friends is looking to me for advice on what class to pick for his first class and from our discussion he seemed to favor a controller with some ability to act as a striker as well.

...

As it stands, I'll probably point him towards a ranged rogue when he goes to build his character, if that's not too horrible of a way to point him?

It's certainly not horrible. However, while every class has "some ability to act as a striker", a ranged rogue is not particularly much of a controller. Admittedly, the term "controller" is somewhat nebulously defined. So the question is, what does your friend want from his character?

Rogues are pretty straightforward to play, and are close to the top in terms of damage done, generally focusing on one target. They complement this with good stealth and mobility, and several status afflictions.

Warlocks are average in terms of ease of play. They deal markedly less damage than other strikers, but focus on nasty status conditions and generating things like teleportation or temporary hit points.

Wizards are somewhat difficult to play well. Although they can be built for good damage, they tend to spread damage among targets and have to worry about friendly fire. However, wizards are arguably the best controllers in the book, and can completely ruin the DM's battle plans using huge area effects, zones, and mass status afflictions.

rayne_dragon
2010-05-06, 12:23 PM
I've found that playing an illusionist wizard can get some very excellent control and damage at the same. Visions of Avarice + Wall of Fire utterly destroys melee encounters, and even just plain old grasping shadows can be extremely effective. Expand spell, dual impliment wizardry, and phantom echoes are great feats for this build.

valadil
2010-05-06, 12:34 PM
I'll second Wrathful Invoker as a controller that gets to do damage.

If he's into optimizing, wizard is pretty capable as well. There's one in my part whose magic missile outdamages the striker.

Draz74
2010-05-06, 12:46 PM
Yeah, it seems to me that Invokers are the most straightforward Controllers. Just point'n'nuke, but with less of the challenges that a Wizard brings with it (more difficult power selection, friendly fire).