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Bhu
2010-05-05, 09:56 PM
I'm thinking of making a Grappling based class eventually that will expand Grappling.

So for fans of wrestling, and MMA etc, what isn't present in DnD grappling rules you'd like to see?

Eldariel
2010-05-05, 10:01 PM
I'm thinking of making a Grappling based class eventually that will expand Grappling.

So for fans of wrestling, and MMA etc, what isn't present in DnD grappling rules you'd like to see?

Uhm, locks? Sure, there are some feats for few specific locks, but if you have Improved Grapple or the like, you should by default have access to some locks... Also, some sanity to the whole "I'm grappling a big ball with a bunch of tentacles" vs. "I'm grappling a two-legged, two-handed humanoid".

Private-Prinny
2010-05-05, 10:09 PM
You could always take a look at Reaping Mauler (CW pg.75) for a couple of ideas. Granted, the class itself seems horrible, but still, it's just an idea.

Mongoose87
2010-05-05, 10:33 PM
One of the biggest problems is those juicy size modifiers. At early levels, they're your friend, for when the Wizard Enlarges you. At high levels, the colossal foe laughs as you grab his toe. I'd like to see a maneuver where you can ride a bigger foe, as a grapple.

abandon hope
2010-05-06, 12:10 AM
Last grappler died when the entire party decided to AoE the grapple. Would have been nice to pull my opponent on top of me as an immediate action for some sort of saving/evasion bonus.

Amphetryon
2010-05-06, 05:50 AM
A grappler could use assistance from the rules in countering moves before damage is done. As is, they have to rely on readying actions and DM descriptive text to immediately counter the Indian Death Lock that Jean-Paul Levesque the bigbad tried to utilize.

Ernir
2010-05-06, 07:14 AM
An effective way to grapple multiple opponents at once. This is really hard to do unless you have an extra +20 or so to throw around on your grapple checks. =/

katans
2010-05-06, 08:34 AM
There's an interpretation problem to the whole thing. D&D grappling is not only ground fighting but covers clinch (grappling in a standing position) as well, and clinch isn't always about damaging your foe, sometimes it's about defense. Holding on to your opponent's sword arm for dear life, because otherwise he's gonna cut you in half, is grappling as much as the technical lock-and-slip from BJJ.

Here's an example of how things could happen:
- Enter grapple
- Clinch
- Trip, both go to the ground
- Wrestling for the advantage, all the while dealing blows
- Gaining favorable position, all the while dealing blows
- Keep hammering until nothing moves, or break grapple and stand up to flee/attack prone opponent, or engage a lock
- Choke/Break joint/Pin to submission

Based on this logic, let's design the following steps and possibilities (warning, strong TL;DR candidate)

Grapple check: 1d20 + your BBA + your Str or Dex modifier, whichever is higher, opposed by the same roll from your opponent.

Entering or initiating the grapple
As a standard action, make a grapple check against an opponent in reach of your unarmed attack (or natural weapon, if applicable). As a reaction to your grapple attempt, your opponent has two choices:
- She can give up resisting the Grapple attempt and instead choose to make an attack of opportunity against you. If you have the Improved grapple feat, this AoO suffers a -4 penalty. The attack is resolved before you make your check. If your grapple check beats your opponent's touch AC, your are now Clinching with your opponent, moving inside her space (this movement does not provoke AoOs from the opponent you are grappling). If you miss, you cannot establish a proper hold and find yourself in a difficult position. You suffer a -2 AC penalty against the opponent you just tried to grapple until the start of your next round.
- She can resist with a Grapple check on her own, in which case you both are automatically Clinching. You move into your opponent's space (see above). If you opponents beats your check by at least 1, she gains a +4 circumstance bonus on grapple checks against you during the following round.

Clinching
While clinching, both opponents are standing and have various options, requiring them to make opposed Grapple checks. They lose their Dex bonus to AC against attacks from outside and no longer threaten the surrounding area, unless their opponent is at least three sizes smaller than them (in which case the grapple doesn't prevent the creature from acting more or less normally, but see below).
- Attack: As a standard action, you can try to damage your opponent with a light weapon you are holding or a natural weapon. This attack is resolved by an opposed Grapple check instead of the standard attack roll vs. AC.
You may attack with your legs or knees, but you suffer a -4 penalty to resist Throws until the start of your next turn.
- Full attack: As a full-round action, you can try to damage your opponent with a light weapon you are holding or a natural weapon. You can perform as many attack attempts as you could were you not grappling. These attacks are resolved by opposed Grapple checks instead of the standard attack rolls vs. AC.
You may attack with your legs or knees, but you suffer a -4 penalty to resist Throws until the start of your next turn.
- Move the grapple: As a move action, you can try to move up to your base land speed, taking your opponent with you. You need to succeed on a grapple check. The biggest contestant gains a +4 bonus on this check for each size category separating her from her opponent. If you move your opponent into an obstacle of at least her size, you can make a Tactical advantage maneuver as a free action.
- Tactical advantage: As a move action, you can try and gain tactical advantage over your opponent, bringing her off-balance. With a successful Grapple check, your opponent suffers a -4 penalty on all grapple checks until the end of your next turn, plus an additional -4 for each 10 full points by which you beat her Grapple check result.
- Throw: As a standard action, you can try to throw your opponent to the ground with a successful Grapple check. The biggest contestant gains a +4 bonus on this check for each size category separating her from her opponent, an bonuses from Stability of having three or more legs apply. If you succeed, you deal damage as with an unarmed strike, and both you and your opponent are now Groundfighting. If you succeed by 10 points or more, you are considered in a Favorable Position (see below). If you miss by 10 points or more, your opponent can attempt a free Throw attempt against you. A failure on this counter-throw attempt has no negative consequences for your opponent.
A flying creature gains a +8 bonus to resist being thrown (but see Pin below)
- Stable Footage: As a full-round action, you may automatically cancel your penalty on grapple checks due to a Tactical Advantage maneuver from your opponent.
- Pin : As a move action, you may block an opponent's appendage with one of your prehensile appendages (hand, tail, tentacle...) with a successful Grapple check. You can manage as many pins at the same time as you have prehensile appendages yourself, and you cannot use those appendages to attack.
1/ You may block a manufactured or natural weapon. Your opponent cannot use this natural or manufactured weapon against you until she frees it (see Shrug Off). If you succeed on your check by 10 or more, your opponent drops the manufactured weapon.
2/ You may block your opponent's wings (if any). If you block at least half her wings, your opponent no longer gains the +8 bonus to resist being Thrown. Creatures flying without wings (typically through supernatural or magical means) are not affected.
3/ You may block one of your opponent's legs. If you block at least half her legs, you gain a +4 bonus on Throw attempts against her.
- Wait for the Right Moment: As a standard action, you can delay your reaction. At any point during your opponent's turn, you may perform an Attack, Move the Grapple, Tactical Advantage or Throw maneuver. This maneuver interrupts your opponent's current actions. You gain a bonus on your delayed action equal to your Intelligence or Wisdom modifier, whichever is higher.
Alternatively, you can use this maneuver to automatically avoid one of your opponent's attacks. If you do, you may make a free Pin attempt against the weapon she attacked you with, negating any further attacks with this weapon in this round if you succeed.
- Shrug Off: You may free one pinned weapon, leg, or wing as a move action, or all of them as a full-round action, with a successful Grapple check. Alternatively, if none of your weapons are pinned, you can break the grapple as a standard action, ending in a space adjacent to your opponent. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. In either case, the biggest contestant gains a +4 bonus on this check for each size category separating her from her opponent.
- Drop: You may drop to the ground as a move action, taking your opponent with you and automatically entering Groundfighting. If you succeed on a Grapple check, both you and your opponent are Wrestling for the advantage. If you fail, your opponent is in a Favorable position.

Groundfighting
Groundfighting is a form of grapple in a seated or lying position. While groundfighting, both opponents have various options, requiring them to make opposed Grapple checks. They lose their Dex bonus to AC against attacks from outside and no longer threaten the surrounding area. Additionally, they are considered Prone against all attacks from outside.
While groundfighting, contestants may either be Ringing for the advantage, granting them no special bonuses, or one of them may have reached Favorable position. A contestant in a Favorable position gains a +4 bonus on all Grapple checks while groundfighting.
- Restore Balance: With a move action and a successful Grapple check, you may negate your opponent's Favorable Position, returning both of you to Wrestling for the advantage.
- Gain Advantage: If you and your opponent are Wrestling for the advantage, you may attemtp to gain Favorable position as a move action with a successful Grapple check.
- Attack / Full attack: As while Clinching, except that attacking with legs or other support appendages does not incur you any penalty.
- Pin: As while Clinching, except that pinning a leg or wing has no particular consequence.
- Move: You can roll around with your opponent, moving up to half your base land speed with a successful Grapple check and dealing damage equal to your Unarmed Strike damage. The biggest contestant gains a +4 bonus on this check for each size category separating her from her opponent. Your opponent may choose not to resist the move, taking damage automatically, and instead enter the Go with the Flow maneuver immediately (see below).
- Break: As a full-round action, you may attempt to break one of your opponent's limbs or appendages with a successful Grapple check. You deal damage equal to twice your Unarmed strike damage and your opponent can no longer use this limb for attacks until she receives medical attention (one hour and a DC 15 Heal check by a creature of the same type, or 25 from another type), is cured at least 15 HP magically, or regenerates at least 10 HP by means of the Fast Healing or Regeneration special qualities. The pain imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on all Grapple checks for each broken limb. Creatures immune to pain or critical hits do not suffer this penalty. You may break the same limb more than once at another spot.
- Lock: As a full-round action, you may attempt to hold your opponent in place. The biggest contestant gains a +4 bonus on this check for each size category separating her from her opponent, and the contestant with the most limbs gains a +1 bonus for each limb he has more than her opponent. Formless opponents such as oozes, swarms or certain aberrations cannot be locked; any attempt automatically fails. If you succeed, your opponent can take no actions but try and escape the lock. At the end of your turn, you may either automatically deal your Unarmed Strike damage or move up to half your base land speed. While locking your opponent, you automatically gain Favorable position, negating any Favforable position your opponent might have. If you release the lock, the Favorable position situation returns to the one prior to the lock.
You can maintain the lock as long as you wish and do not need to roll to do so. If you are up to one size category larger than your opponent, you cannot take physical actions or cast spells with somatic components while holding the lock. If you are at least two size categories larger, you may act from the prone position, suffering a -10 penalty on all physical actions and 50% spell failure chance when casting spells with somatic components. You may surrender part of this penalty (per increments of -1 and 5%), but your locked opponent gains a +1 bonus to escape the lock for each point you surrender. If you are at least three size categories larger, you may stand up while maintaining the lock, suffering a -5 penalty on physical actions as well as 25% spell failure for spells with somatic components. This penalty can be lessened as described above.
- Escape lock: As a full-round action, you may attempt to escape a lock with a successful Grapple check. The biggest contestant gains a +4 bonus on this check for each size category separating her from her opponent, and the contestant with the most limbs gains a +1 bonus for each limb he has more than her opponent.
- Go with the flow: As a full-round action, you may enter a passive-defensive stance, forfeiting any Favorable position you might have. You gain a +8 bonus on grapple checks to resist your opponent's attempts until the start of your next turn.
- Slip out: Assuming you are not locked, you may give up the grapple as a full-round action with a successful Grapple check, moving to a square adjacent to your opponent (though you and your opponent are still prone). The biggest contestant gains a +4 bonus on this check for each size category separating her from her opponent. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you are Going with the flow, you gain a +4 bonus on the check. In you are in a Favorable position, you end up on your feet instead and may make one attack at your highest base attack bonus against your prone opponent with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light melee weapon you are holding.
If you are Locking your opponent, you need not succeed on a Grapple check to slip out and are considered in a Favorable Position.

That's for the basics, now one could imagine extra graplle-based feats for special maneuvers, locking or breaking while clinching, or hitting on a round to better Shrug off or Slip out the next, etc. Hope it sounds OK.

dsmiles
2010-05-06, 08:44 AM
Wall'o'text.

Wow. You've really done your research. Very nice. I like to play grapplers from time to time, and I may use this as a grappling system in the campaign world I'm working on.

Person_Man
2010-05-06, 09:15 AM
My friend, you should go and read the 1st edition Grappling rules. They're even more needlessly complicated (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrapplingWithGrapplingRules).

May I ask - do you really want to have to consult such an extensive chart to do such a simple task? Do you expect everyone in your group to do so as well?



One of the biggest problems is those juicy size modifiers. At early levels, they're your friend, for when the Wizard Enlarges you. At high levels, the colossal foe laughs as you grab his toe. I'd like to see a maneuver where you can ride a bigger foe, as a grapple.

Casters can use Polymorph to turn you into anything of any size. Wu Jen have the Giant Size spell, which turns you Colossal IIRC. Psychic Warrior have Expansion, which gives up to 2 size increases. A Totemist can get large bonuses to his Str and Grapple checks, so it doesn't matter much what size he is.

A Binder can bind Zagon, which grants Aversion, Improved Grapple, Scent, Constrict, and Snake Bane. In addition to the bonus feat and Constrict ability, the vestige is poorly worded so that you always count as size Large for the purpose of Grapple checks (as opposed to "one size bigger up to Large size" or something similar). This is hilarious and awesome for Small, Tiny, Fine, or Diminutive sized Binders. Take Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk from Races of Stone. Move into your enemy's square and Grapple him. Your enemy counts as being Flat Footed (thanks to Confound, not your Grapple) and if any enemies try to attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting your target instead of you. Or use Aversion, and they have to Save or move away from you while you strangle their friend to death.



An effective way to grapple multiple opponents at once. This is really hard to do unless you have an extra +20 or so to throw around on your grapple checks. =/

If you are Large or bigger (Half-Ogre would be the easiest method) you can take a feat to reduce that penalty drastically. I forget the name though. I think it's in Draconomicon, and I'm AFB.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-06, 09:56 AM
3.5 grappling rules are about as simple as it can get, and they're still a bit too complicated as far as what can be done in one attack or in one round while grappling.

Regardless of how good someone is at grappling, a Psion who uses Metamorphosis to become a Behir (available as early as level 7 with Changeling Egoist + Overchannel) will probably turn out to be a more capable grappler.

This game doesn't really need another prestige class that focuses on grappling, you just need to be aware of what makes a good grappler.

In Lords of Madness you'll find the feats Aberration Blood: Flexible Limbs (+2 grapple), Inhuman Reach (+5 ft. reach), and Deepspawn (gain 2 tentacle attacks, +2 grapple). There are other feats in that line such as Starspawn (gain limited (Ex) flight) which are also quite useful.

Improved Unarmed Strike is absolutely necessary, since upon successfully grabbing an opponent you deal damage as though with an unarmed strike (Step 3). It's also a prerequisite for Improved Grapple, also absolutely necessary.

Psychic Warrior gets powers like Expansion and Grip of Iron, invaluable abilities for a grappler to have. There are other classes like War Mind and Psionic Fist/Fist of Zuoken which can also learn these powers, so take your pick and be sure to get Practiced Manifester.

Constrict is also a useful ability to have, but it can get a bit confusing. I'm pretty sure that every time you make a grapple check which deals unarmed damage (or natural weapon damage if you improved grabbed) you also deal constrict damage. There's a stance in the Stone Dragon discipline called Crushing Weight of the Mountain which grants a Constrict ability with fairly significant damage for a strong character. Any ToB base class can access Stone Dragon, or any character can get Martial Study and Martial Stance, so you should never be without this.

Power Attack can be useful, but it's a bit iffy. It applies a penalty to all of your attack rolls in exchange for adding a bonus to all of your melee damage rolls. An unarmed strike is a melee attack, so unarmed strike damage is a melee damage roll. A grapple check is not an attack roll, it is a grapple check, so Power Attack applies no penalties to grapple checks. If you're already grappling, you can choose to power attack this round for your whole BAB and make a full attack action to make multiple grapple checks, each one dealing unarmed damage and adding a bonus for power attack. This has come up on WotC's website, or maybe in the FAQ, and WotC has said that this shouldn't work because you'd be getting something for nothing. However, the only reason I realized this trick was after looking over the Frost Giant Mauler in Frostburn, an official WotC creature specifically designed to use it.

Assume you combine Aberration Blood: Flexible Limbs, Deepspawn, IUS, Improved Grapple, and Crushing Weight of the Mountain on one character. He could also have Expansion and Grip of Iron, but it doesn't really matter. Let's say he got IUS and Improved Grapple from Monk, so he can Flurry as well, and he also has Multiattack so those tentacles from Deepspawn are only at a -2 to hit.

His full attack should be Primary Unarmed Strike (BAB + Str + Enhancement, -2 Flurry) +X/+X/+X-5/+X-10 etc., 2 Tentacles (BAB + Str + Enhancement, -2 Flurry, -2 Secondary) +X-2 twice. He can attack with the tentacles before, after, or in between the unarmed strikes, so he'll use them first. Keep in mind that when grappling he can only use one weapon (either an unarmed strike or one of his tentacles or armor spikes, etc.) plus a Rake attack if he has one. He attacks as follows, keeping in mind that his Unarmed Strike is primary so Unarmed Strike Damage adds his full Str bonus:

Tentacle +X-2 touches to initiate a grapple, on success he deals unarmed damage (unarmed dice + Str) plus constrict damage (2d6 + 1.5x Str), upon reaching Step 4 of initiating a grapple he doesn't enter the opponent's space, so the grapple immediately ends and he continues his full attack.

Tentacle +X-2 touches to initiate a grapple, on success he deals unarmed damage (unarmed dice + Str) plus constrict damage (2d6 + 1.5x Str), this time he does enter the opponent's space and continues grappling, his one weapon used during the grapple will be his unarmed strike.

Unarmed Strike, note that Flurry imposes a penalty to attack rolls so that won't apply to grapple checks. He gets two grapple checks at the full bonus, another at -5 if his BAB is +6 or more, another at -10 if his BAB is +11 or more, etc. Each successful grapple check deals unarmed damage (unarmed dice + Str) plus constrict damage (2d6 + 1.5x Str).

On the following round if he's still grappling he cannot use his tentacle attacks, but he can use Power Attack for his full BAB to gain a bonus to unarmed strike damage for no drawback.

A character built for grappling doesn't need any fancy prestige classes to be good, as long as that character is properly built and properly played.

Telonius
2010-05-06, 10:35 AM
I'd love for specific moves to be available, dealing varying amounts of status and damage.

- Body slam - deal damage and opponent is prone.
- Suplex - deal more damage, but both you and opponent are prone.
- Full Nelson - ?
- Polish Hammer - add strength and a half for unarmed.
- Clothesline - chance to ruin verbal spells
- Sleeper - chance to knock target out.
- Piledriver - chance to stun or render helpless
- Turnbuckle jump - additional bonuses from attacking from high ground
- Sharpshooter - chance for dex damage/speed halving (as though struck by caltrop)

Greenish
2010-05-06, 10:48 AM
Constrict is also a useful ability to have, but it can get a bit confusing. I'm pretty sure that every time you make a grapple check which deals unarmed damage (or natural weapon damage if you improved grabbed) you also deal constrict damage.I thought Constrict damage was instead of normal unarmed damage, not in place of it. Hmm…

- Clothesline - chance to ruin verbal spellsYou can do this by readying an action to when the caster tries to cast, but if you're already grappling a caster, you should try to pin him, since then you can prevent him from using spells with verbal components.

Doc Roc
2010-05-06, 10:49 AM
A rewrite of the grapple rules before you use them.

2xMachina
2010-05-06, 11:02 AM
This? (http://darthsanddroids.net/comics/darths0344_bonus.jpg) :smallwink:

prufock
2010-05-06, 12:09 PM
Most of the following is already covered under grappling rules. Grappling is basically a clinch - you're both standing, unless you're grappling a prone opponent. You only go to the ground if one trips the other, which is essentially like the throwing option below. However, a "throw" to me should be a release of the grapple for increased damage - like a suplex. I'd also like to see a "slam" option.

Holding your opponent's sword arm is sort of already covered under grappling. You can only attack unarmed, with a natural weapon, or with a light weapon. Simply initiating a grapple stops him from cutting you in two. You can stop them from attacking you completely with a pin.

The tactical advantage options are novel, but I'm not sure it's necessary. It's an interesting idea, but to me it seems almost an extra degree of complexity. This is personal preference, of course; I like my combat to be fairly streamlined.

Breaking a limb is also an interesting idea, but as written it might be a bit too powerful, depending on the effect a broken limb has. It's sort of like a called shot, which don't really exist in 3.5. However, it would be a cool feat or special ability for the class, since there are somewhat analogous feats (Chokehold) and special abilities (Sneak Attack) already. I like it; I think I'll write a feat for it as a house rule.


D&D grappling is not only ground fighting but covers clinch (grappling in a standing position) as well, and clinch isn't always about damaging your foe, sometimes it's about defense. Holding on to your opponent's sword arm for dear life, because otherwise he's gonna cut you in half, is grappling as much as the technical lock-and-slip from BJJ.

Here's an example of how things could happen:
- Enter grapple
- Clinch
- Trip, both go to the ground
- Wrestling for the advantage, all the while dealing blows
- Gaining favorable position, all the while dealing blows
- Keep hammering until nothing moves, or break grapple and stand up to flee/attack prone opponent, or engage a lock
- Choke/Break joint/Pin to submission
...
- Tactical advantage: As a move action, you can try and gain tactical advantage over your opponent, bringing her off-balance. With a successful Grapple check, your opponent suffers a -4 penalty on all grapple checks until the end of your next turn, plus an additional -4 for each 10 full points by which you beat her Grapple check result.
...
- Break: As a full-round action, you may attempt to break one of your opponent's limbs or appendages with a successful Grapple check. You deal damage equal to twice your Unarmed strike damage and your opponent can no longer use this limb for attacks until she receives medical attention (one hour and a DC 15 Heal check by a creature of the same type, or 25 from another type), is cured at least 15 HP magically, or regenerates at least 10 HP by means of the Fast Healing or Regeneration special qualities. The pain imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on all Grapple checks for each broken limb. Creatures immune to pain or critical hits do not suffer this penalty. You may break the same limb more than once at another spot.
...
- Go with the flow: As a full-round action, you may enter a passive-defensive stance, forfeiting any Favorable position you might have. You gain a +8 bonus on grapple checks to resist your opponent's attempts until the start of your next turn.


Increasing damage in a grapple is probably necessary. Unarmed damage tends to be very low, unless you're a monk.


I'd love for specific moves to be available, dealing varying amounts of status and damage.
See the WWE Know Your Role RPG. Having specific moves have specific effects is, well... tedious. I had to do a bunch of rewrites to make the system workable.

Person_Man
2010-05-06, 12:25 PM
On second thought, have you considered writing a serious of Maneuvers that rely on or buff Grapple moves? That way everyone wouldn't have to learn them. I think 4E made a Fighter with Powers that relies on Grab that work pretty well, though I haven't seen the rules for it yet.

KiltedGrappler
2010-05-06, 12:28 PM
The problem with chokes and jointlocks in D&D is that they can be really overpowering really fast. A choke would just end up being a Save or Die, and against a Warrior with no Ambidexterity or a Wizard with no Still Spell a jointlock would be about the same thing.

Plus, I don't care how many levels a (N)PC has, if he's never grappled before in his life he'll have no idea how to defend those techniques (if you're looking for a bit of realism). So what you might have is a level 20 PC able to be taken out by a low-level grappler, simply because he doesn't know what's going on.

Granted, this is all my opinion, and please feel free to ignore at your leisure.

Bhu
2010-05-06, 11:37 PM
This game doesn't really need another prestige class that focuses on grappling, you just need to be aware of what makes a good grappler.



Wasn't gonna be a PrC. I was thinking of doing a Professional Wrestler core class, with PrC's for various styles of wrestling such as fake, freestyle, mma, etc. Maybe base it off ToB to make maneuvers based on grappling.

Greenish
2010-05-06, 11:45 PM
Wasn't gonna be a PrC. I was thinking of doing a Professional Wrestler core class, with PrC's for various styles of wrestling such as fake, freestyle, mma, etc. Maybe base it off ToB to make maneuvers based on grappling.There's a fourth level spell I'm thinking.

Keld Denar
2010-05-07, 12:28 AM
If you are Large or bigger (Half-Ogre would be the easiest method) you can take a feat to reduce that penalty drastically. I forget the name though. I think it's in Draconomicon, and I'm AFB.

Greater Multigrab in Serpent Kingdoms (pg 146) and Savage Species (pg 35).

Also, Constrict triggers every time you win a grapple check.



Constrict
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab


If you win a grapple check to start a grapple, you do constrict damage. If you win a grapple check to move a grapple, you do constrict damage. If you win a grapple check to pin a foe, you do constrict damage. If you win a grapple because your foe tried to escape your grapple and failed, you do constrict damage.

THAT is why constrict is so important for a grappling character to pick up. The 2 best ways to get it are Martial Study + Martial Stance for Crushing Roots of the Mountain or Shape Soulmeld (Kraken Mantle) + Open Lesser Chakra (Arms). Open Lesser Chakra can also be acomplished via Psionic Open Chakra or the Open Lesser Chakra spell.

katans
2010-05-07, 04:01 AM
I know my proposition is yet incomplete, complicated, and certainly not that well balanced. On the other hand, doing nothing to bring a bit more of fun and diversity to a grapple (not just "He's bigger than you, you lose") isn't a good solution either. My propositions aim at a more cinematic grappling sequence with the two contestants pushing themselves around, delivering headbutts to a gnoll's chest while holding his throat so he can't bite you, stabbity-stab the dragon's paw that's crushing you to the ground, slamming the minotaur into a dungeon wall, and so on.

I know it's brutally complicated, but heck, that's what real life grappling is too.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-07, 04:41 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zangief

taltamir
2010-05-07, 04:53 AM
One of the biggest problems is those juicy size modifiers. At early levels, they're your friend, for when the Wizard Enlarges you. At high levels, the colossal foe laughs as you grab his toe. I'd like to see a maneuver where you can ride a bigger foe, as a grapple.

yea because you should totally be able to grapple a giant by grabbing his toe.

prufock
2010-05-07, 07:03 AM
One of the biggest problems is those juicy size modifiers. At early levels, they're your friend, for when the Wizard Enlarges you. At high levels, the colossal foe laughs as you grab his toe. I'd like to see a maneuver where you can ride a bigger foe, as a grapple.

While I think size modifiers are somewhat realistic, I like the idea of riding a bigger foe - just grabbing it and hanging on for dear life, or even climbing over it. The grapple rules certainly don't allow you to do that very easily. But in that case you aren't really trying to grapple, or use any of the options associated with grapple. It shouldn't cause them to lose attacks or take penalties to AC, and you aren't doing damage, you aren't pinning them, you aren't trying to move them. Frankly you're just treating them as a mobile mountain.

I don't think we need a separate rule for this. A DM should be able to rule that a successful touch attack allows you to grab on, and then make climb checks, with a penalty because the object is mobile. Of course, the creature you're climbing should at any point be able to use an attack to engage a grapple to pull you off.

Telonius
2010-05-07, 07:45 AM
You can do this by readying an action to when the caster tries to cast, but if you're already grappling a caster, you should try to pin him, since then you can prevent him from using spells with verbal components.

Honestly I was thinking something more along the lines of Warblade Maneuvers or even tactical feats, than using the current Grapple mechanics (which are godawful). You could get the pro wrestler feel without maintaining a grapple, except maybe for the locks.

Mongoose87
2010-05-07, 08:01 AM
yea because you should totally be able to grapple a giant by grabbing his toe.

You seem to have misread the word "ride" as the word "grapple."

Bhu
2010-05-07, 03:53 PM
Honestly I was thinking something more along the lines of Warblade Maneuvers or even tactical feats, than using the current Grapple mechanics (which are godawful). You could get the pro wrestler feel without maintaining a grapple, except maybe for the locks.

This is kinda what I was aiming for. Just wanted to see if people wanted it strictly pro wrasslin', or covering other forms of grappling. I need to start it soon cause its the Favored Class for one of my campaign races.

Mando Knight
2010-05-07, 04:29 PM
Personally, against multiple opponents, I'd think that a style that de-emphasizes the holding part of the grapple would be more useful: knock a foe off balance so you can slice the other guy with your sword without worry, then turn the charging nutter's momentum against his allies by throwing him into another guy...

Mongoose87
2010-05-07, 08:51 PM
Personally, against multiple opponents, I'd think that a style that de-emphasizes the holding part of the grapple would be more useful: knock a foe off balance so you can slice the other guy with your sword without worry, then turn the charging nutter's momentum against his allies by throwing him into another guy...

Though that's actually in-line with a lot of the fighting that was done with Two-Handed swords, I think, when they designed grappling, they meant for it to be like wrestling.

playswithfire
2010-05-08, 06:27 AM
On second thought, have you considered writing a serious of Maneuvers that rely on or buff Grapple moves? That way everyone wouldn't have to learn them. I think 4E made a Fighter with Powers that relies on Grab that work pretty well, though I haven't seen the rules for it yet.

At the risk of being self-promoting, there is a ToB discipline in my signature designed to pretty much do that. I'd written it to be for swordsages, but that mainly effects the associated feats and PrC, the maneuvers work for anyone.

Bhu
2010-05-08, 11:53 AM
I like it. Do I have permission to call on you for reviewing my work once I get this started?

playswithfire
2010-05-08, 01:19 PM
Sure thing.

Bhu
2010-05-09, 04:41 PM
Thanks! Once I decide to go for it I'll give you a pm