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Samb
2010-05-06, 08:26 AM
I've been seeing a lot of builds lately that include Illithid Slayer. This thread is to clear up some misconceptions about this PrC, the main one being that it's class features are combat relavant.

At first blush this seems like a great PrC. 9/10 ML progression and full BAB progression, matrial weapon profiency. However, as I will detail, the lose one ML, and base class features are not justified.

Many people go gaga over Permenant mind blank, this however is a trap. An NPC with mind blank is very good because the PCs would have no way of detecting him/her. A PC with this class feature is pointless because your DM will always have metagame knowledge of everything you do.

Favored enemy (illithid) along with it's anti brain eating features are niche. I have seen people rule lawyering that brain nausea applies to swallow whole. It doesn't. Brain nausea specifically states the act of extracting the slayer's brain forces a save, they are free to do anything else. If you want to technical, after the mob's stomach acid digests through your skull, you might give it an upset stomach (acid attepmted to extract your brain). Either way you are dead.

Even it's illithid defense features are sub-par compared to sanctified mind. Sancitfied mind ignores stun and daze all together while slayer's lucid buffer only increases resistance to said effects. So even in the niche protection standpoint it fails to deliver.

Full BAB is rare in psionics, but ultimatly unneeded since most will be matemorphing into something with full BAB anyway. BAB is needed for feats and that is really the only time you would even consider this.

9/10 ML progression is deceptive. You also lose bonus feats if you are a psywar or psion, you lose wild surge and euphoria progression as a wilder, lose mantles as an ardent etc. Is BAB better than said class features? IMO no.

Tl;dr version:
slayer fails to live up to it's rep as the "cadillac" psi Gish PrC. It's features are not combat relavant, and even in it's niche it is out performed by Sanctified mind.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-06, 08:29 AM
A PC with this class feature is pointless because your DM will always have metagame knowledge of everything you do.
That strikes me as an extremely bizarre argument. It might be true, but it simply seems bizarre upon first impression.


Full BAB is rare in psionics, but ultimatly unneeded since most will be matemorphing into something with full BAB anyway. BAB is needed for feats and that is really the only time you would even consider this.
Isn't metamorph, as something similar to polymorph, frowned upon by many DMs?

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 08:41 AM
I'll back Samb up here, but point out it makes more sense to discuss the SRD Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) than the Illithid Slayer, as that class is a) more accessible and b) stronger - It can select any psionic monster as a favored enemy, not just illithids.

Anyhow, I agree - for the same dead level it takes you to get into the PrC, you could dip Psywar and get the same proficiencies, a power, bonus PP from Wis and a free psionic feat. You gain a feat instead of losing one (to Track) which effectively puts you up two feats vs. a Slayer.

There's a tendency with psionic builds to kneejerk for any PrC with high enough ML progression without considering the class features independently. That's understandable - CPsi PrCs shafted us, not many of the other PrCs in the XPH are viable and many DMs disallow 3rd party - but that still leaves LoM, Eberron and Mind's Eye to look through.

EDIT: I'd also like to differentiate between the Slayer's two abilities. It gets permanent Nondetection at 6th level, and Permanent Mind Blank at 9th. The former is the one that doesn't do so well on a PC - the latter, however, is. It's not a bad ability for 8/9 progression. But I think the 9 levels you sink into Slayer are better used elsewhere.

druid91
2010-05-06, 08:44 AM
Many people go gaga over Permanent mind blank, this however is a trap. An NPC with mind blank is very good because the PCs would have no way of detecting him/her. A PC with this class feature is pointless because your DM will always have metagame knowledge of everything you do.


And any Dm who uses that meta-game knowledge against you either does so only once or twice in the campaign when dealing directly with the big bad or similarly powerful spellcaster, or isn't worth playing under for any extended length of time.

Using meta-game knowledge like that just screams railroading jerk to me.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-06, 08:45 AM
Curious, but why did you fixate on mind-reading as the reason Mind Blank is worthless? No one cares if the NPC wizard can cast Detect Thoughts on you. Mind Blank is awesome because it makes you immune to [Mind-Affecting] magic, the subschool melee-types are most likely to be vulnerable against.

That to be said, yes - there are better options out there than Slayer. That doesn't make Slayer bad though - especially compared to the other options in the XPH and CPsi, it's still good.

Person_Man
2010-05-06, 08:47 AM
Everyone knows that caster/manifester/binder/meldshaping/blade magic levels tend to be more important BAB.

But whether or not someone uses the Slayer depends on their level and build goals. I know plenty of people who would be willing to trade a manifester level and 2-3 feats for higher BAB, hit points, Skill points, and some nifty class features. And I would add that some DMs allow Breach Power Resistance to lower Spell Resistance as well, and that Supernatural Cerebral Immunity means that you can entirely ignore your Will Save, which can be a big deal. Yes the DM can work around it. But you never have to worry about entire categories of enemies.

Again, Slayer is not the end all be all of psionics. But it's not a stupid decision either.

Douglas
2010-05-06, 08:48 AM
Many people go gaga over Permenant mind blank, this however is a trap. An NPC with mind blank is very good because the PCs would have no way of detecting him/her. A PC with this class feature is pointless because your DM will always have metagame knowledge of everything you do.
:smallconfused:

Why would a PC even care about the avoid-detection part of Mind Blank? The important part is immunity to mind-affecting, and that part works regardless of DM metagame knowledge.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 08:49 AM
And any Dm who uses that meta-game knowledge against you either does so only once or twice in the campaign when dealing directly with the big bad or similarly powerful spellcaster, or isn't worth playing under for any extended length of time.

Using meta-game knowledge like that just screams railroading jerk to me.

Perhaps, but realistically, do you want to not be found? Your DM can say "you're right, nobody can find you" - and then the plot stagnates because finding you was an integral piece of it.


Curious, but why did you fixate on mind-reading as the reason Mind Blank is worthless? No one cares if the NPC wizard can cast Detect Thoughts on you. Mind Blank is awesome because it makes you immune to [Mind-Affecting] magic, the subschool melee-types are most likely to be vulnerable against.


:smallconfused:

Why would a PC even care about the avoid-detection part of Mind Blank? The important part is immunity to mind-affecting, and that part works regardless of DM metagame knowledge.

Again, for the sake of clarity, let's differentiate.
The "can't be found" ability (Nondetection) is at Slayer 6. This is what Samb is referring to.
The actual "Mind Blank" is at Slayer 9, and that is the one you are referring to.

EDITED to address the above to douglas as well.


That to be said, yes - there are better options out there than Slayer. That doesn't make Slayer bad though - especially compared to the other options in the XPH and CPsi, it's still good.

The thing is - the kneejerk "you must PrC" mindset instilled into us from every other casting class only applies to Psions. To contrast: Erudites, Wilders, Psywars and Ardents all have compelling reasons not to PrC out. So Slayer can be a distinctly inferior option for those classes.

tonberrian
2010-05-06, 08:56 AM
I want to point out that the Slayer's Cerebral Blind is an ability that is entirely unique in that it can let beneficial mind-affecting things through, like Bard Song and Heroism. I'm not aware of anything else that can do that. That makes the Slayer a solid choice (maybe not the best, but solid) for many builds.

Tengu_temp
2010-05-06, 10:08 AM
Full BAB is rare in psionics, but ultimatly unneeded since most will be matemorphing into something with full BAB anyway.


Does Metamorphosis/Polymorph even give the the BAB of your new form?

Slayer is a bad choice if you're a pure caster, but for a psionic gish it's a great class - and, unlike a pure psionic warrior, you can manifest level 9 powers and have enough BAB for 4 attacks per round.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-06, 10:14 AM
I've always found that having one or two members of a party have non-detection to be of limited usefulness anyway.

Unless you're scouting ahead or sneaking around (or otherwise separate from the party), being undetectable is pointless because the monsters can detect the rest of your party!

Eldariel
2010-05-06, 10:16 AM
Does Metamorphosis/Polymorph even give the the BAB of your new form?

No. However, as you fight with Natural Weapons, you'll care much-less-than-normal about the whole BAB in the first place. At that point, any boost To Hit is good as any other, since you don't prolly PA/Shock and don't have iteratives to worry about.

Flickerdart
2010-05-06, 10:16 AM
I've always found that having one or two members of a party have non-detection to be of limited usefulness anyway.

Unless you're scouting ahead or sneaking around (or otherwise separate from the party), being undetectable is pointless because the monsters can detect the rest of your party!
"Hey, Joe Ogre, check it out. My crystal ball says that there's a lone Fighter running around the forest. We should go eat him."
"Sure, Bob Ogre Mage. The two of us should be plenty to take on a single Figh- OH GOD WHERE DID ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE COME FROM MY BRAINS ARE ON FIRE"

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-06, 10:20 AM
"Hey, Joe Ogre, check it out. My crystal ball says that there's a lone Fighter running around the forest. We should go eat him."
"Sure, Bob Ogre Mage. The two of us should be plenty to take on a single Figh- OH GOD WHERE DID ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE COME FROM MY BRAINS ARE ON FIRE"

More like:
"Well, I only sense one mind approaching me... either this individual was able to destroy my mind-controlled minions single-handedly, or there are others with him who are defended against my power. Either way, I'd best be on my guard."

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 10:25 AM
Or the big bad scries your party while they're fighting something else (common scenario), and watches you wink in and out of view as you expend and regain your focus during combat, removing the element of surprise.

druid91
2010-05-06, 10:28 AM
Perhaps, but realistically, do you want to not be found? Your DM can say "you're right, nobody can find you" - and then the plot stagnates because finding you was an integral piece of it.


I didn't say that. The way your saying it it is vitally important to the campaign that every single mook should be able to find you at all times.

balistafreak
2010-05-06, 10:31 AM
Or the big bad scries your party while they're fighting something else (common scenario), and watches you wink in and out of view as you expend and regain your focus during combat, removing the element of surprise.

I thought that maintaining a Focus at all times through Psicrystal Containment was standard issue? :smallconfused:

/nitpick

For that matter, does the Focus in your Psicrystal also go away when you would normally lose your focus (asleep, unconscious, etc.)?

Samb
2010-05-06, 10:33 AM
Cerebral immunity is nice and all but it is IMO redundant for most psionic classes since they either have good will saves or good WIS scores, or both. Then there is empty mind, a level 1 power that can Jack up your will save (as an intermediate action) quite high.

Saying a DM can't use metagame knowledge against you is silly. Your DM simlly knows everything your PC is doing. That is a fact. If he can't justify using divinitation on you then he will have a spy. Or he could just obseve the effects of your actions, your teammates etc.

As Optmystic pointed out this effect is duplicated in a power. Yeah should it even be an issue?

Slayer is at best an average PrC. If you want good mind defence and killing aberrations Santified mind is much better.

If you are a BSF with psi to buff you then Warmind, psychic weapon master or even elocater are superior.

If you are blaster/batman, anarachic initiate, crystal master, or constructor is better.

Hey going straight base class is fine too.

People seem to just focus on pointless things of Slayers.

lord_khaine
2010-05-06, 11:13 AM
I totaly disagree about most of the things you say.

To start with the Slayer gains a improved HD, improved BAB and improved skills, that alone makes it worthy of consideration.

At the same time, the capstone ability of the class gives a selective immunity to mindaffecting attacks, that at the same time wont get dispelled, and will be up all day.
Most slayer builds will also either have a bad will save and good wisdom, or a good will save and a average wis score.

Pluto
2010-05-06, 11:19 AM
Hear, hear!

I won't pretend it's a bad class. That's a hard case to make.

And the Mind Blank is pretty fantastic. But it's the one really compelling class feature and it can be imitated with a spell slot or a few pp (not perfectly, but the power doesn't stop whenever you use metapsionics or deep impact or whatever). And it comes in at ECL 16 of most builds - too late to be practical in most campaigns.
(I know that's subjective. But I've played for about 6 years in a number of groups and I've yet to see level 14.)




In an EPH-only game, Slayer is king of the Psion-based gish.
Or when one type of psionic creature dominates a campaign.
Or at very high levels.
But there are certainly other, better options for most psigishes:

Anarchic Initiate for Metamorphosis-users; the BA doesn't hurt them quite so much and the manifesting boosts are fantastic.

Sanctified Mind for most builds; Iron Mind is a better and cheaper prerequisite than Track, there are class abilities to help you survive the low levels; skills, HD, BA stay the same.

Psionic Adaptation Abjurant Champion; it might be a little bit cheesy, but if it's going to present itself as an option, it may as well be used.

Samb
2010-05-06, 11:52 AM
I totaly disagree about most of the things you say.

To start with the Slayer gains a improved HD, improved BAB and improved skills, that alone makes it worthy of consideration.
Not worth my consideration. BAB is only an issue when you need it to qualify for feats (ie king of smack getting improved rapidstrike pre epic). Otherwise, metamorphosis can shore up any problems with attack roll and HP
and let's not forget that with the feat you wasted on track yu couldve gotten psionic body or PVS combo. I personally don't worry too much about skills other than concentrate, spot and autohypnosis. If I wanted to play a skill monkey I'd play a factotum or rogue.



At the same time, the capstone ability of the class gives a selective immunity to mindaffecting attacks, that at the same time wont get dispelled, and will be up all day.
You must be thinking of cerebral immunity and not Slayers' real capstone (which is crap). It dispels when you lose focus so no linked power for you or you lose that ability you waited 9 levels for. Sounds a crappy feature to me.

Most slayer builds will also either have a bad will save and good wisdom, or a good will save and a average wis score.
This is the reason cerebral immunity is redundant.

lord_khaine
2010-05-06, 12:09 PM
Not worth my consideration. BAB is only an issue when you need it to qualify for feats (ie king of smack getting improved rapidstrike pre epic). Otherwise, metamorphosis can shore up any problems with attack roll and HP
and let's not forget that with the feat you wasted on track yu couldve gotten psionic body or PVS combo. I personally don't worry too much about skills other than concentrate, spot and autohypnosis. If I wanted to play a skill monkey I'd play a factotum or rogue.

You cant allways rely on Metamorphis to shore up your hit, and it wont do anything about your hp, unlike having an improved hd.

And if i wanted to play a one trick pony, then i would chose a warrior or a barbarian.


You must be thinking of cerebral immunity and not Slayers' real capstone (which is crap). It dispels when you lose focus so no linked power for you or you lose that ability you waited 9 levels for. Sounds a crappy feature to me.
Im thinking about the real capstone.
And it comes back up after you spend your spare moveaction on it, defently worth the price.


This is the reason cerebral immunity is redundant.

No, this is a the reason its a worthy investment.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 12:19 PM
I thought that maintaining a Focus at all times through Psicrystal Containment was standard issue? :smallconfused:

/nitpick

For that matter, does the Focus in your Psicrystal also go away when you would normally lose your focus (asleep, unconscious, etc.)?

Wrong, wrong, wrong. All Containment does is let you expend your psicrystal's focus instead of your own (to power feats, class features, concentration checks etc.) It only helps you maintain yours, insofar as you can expend his instead to pull your weight in a fight.

But, if you ever need to expend them both - or if you are made to lose yours for some other reason (many psionic monsters do this), your psicrystal's focus won't help maintain your mind blank at all.

And when you are unconscious/asleep/run out of PP etc. and you lose your focus, the fact that your psicrystal has his doesn't mean jack for you. Guess what? That's 8 hours per day that the baddie can scry for you. Meanwhile Personal Mind Blank covers you for a full 24 hours, whether you're awake or asleep.

No-brainer, people.

Gametime
2010-05-06, 12:39 PM
Not worth my consideration. BAB is only an issue when you need it to qualify for feats (ie king of smack getting improved rapidstrike pre epic). Otherwise, metamorphosis can shore up any problems with attack roll and HP
and let's not forget that with the feat you wasted on track yu couldve gotten psionic body or PVS combo. I personally don't worry too much about skills other than concentrate, spot and autohypnosis. If I wanted to play a skill monkey I'd play a factotum or rogue.



The fact that Slayer is worse than metamorphosis is true, but not really a fair basis for comparison. Polymorph and similar effects are among the strongest spells in D&D, and there's maybe one gish class for any type of spellcasting that's worth getting if you're going to rely on transforming.

As others have said, Slayer isn't top of the line. It is perfectly serviceable, though, in a way most gish classes aren't, and a build using it is unlikely to be too weak to handle most challenges. It has some costs and some benefits - in my mind, that's the mark of a well-designed prestige class. It should be a choice to enter it, not a foregone conclusion or complete waste of time.

Draz74
2010-05-06, 12:41 PM
and let's not forget that with the feat you wasted on track yu couldve gotten psionic body or PVS combo.

OK, you want to talk about overrated elements of the psionic gish arsenal? How about Psionic Body? I can't understand why it's considered good at all; I'd much rather be a Slayer than take Psionic Body.

I've seen a number of builds with Psionic Body and, in general, they would be better off if they simply replaced Psionic Body with Improved Toughness. And Improved Toughness is a pretty average feat.

The few builds that have actually gotten more HP from Psionic Body than from Improved Toughness have had too many Psionic Feats IMHO, anyway. They would have been better off switching some of those feats to Metapsionic Feats or Fighter Feats instead. Until eventually they, too, would have been better off with Improved Toughness rather than Psionic Body.

... Back on the topic of Slayer: what about in an SRD-only environment? That's the only setting where I've really played around with psionic gishes, and there, at least, it seems like a very worthwhile investment to me.


It is perfectly serviceable, though, in a way most gish classes aren't, and a build using it is unlikely to be too weak to handle most challenges. It has some costs and some benefits - in my mind, that's the mark of a well-designed prestige class. It should be a choice to enter it, not a foregone conclusion or complete waste of time.

Quoted For Agreement.

jiriku
2010-05-06, 12:50 PM
Not worth my consideration. BAB is only an issue when you need it to qualify for feats (ie king of smack getting improved rapidstrike pre epic). Otherwise, metamorphosis can shore up any problems with attack roll and HP
and let's not forget that with the feat you wasted on track yu couldve gotten psionic body or PVS combo. I personally don't worry too much about skills other than concentrate, spot and autohypnosis. If I wanted to play a skill monkey I'd play a factotum or rogue.

You must be thinking of cerebral immunity and not Slayers' real capstone (which is crap). It dispels when you lose focus so no linked power for you or you lose that ability you waited 9 levels for. Sounds a crappy feature to me.

This is the reason cerebral immunity is redundant.

I see where you're coming from, Samb, but where you're coming from isn't the only way to approach this prestige class. You're thinking POWERZPOWERZPOWERZGOTTAMANIFEST2DAMAXNOTHINGELSEMA TTERZICANSOLVEALLPROBLEMZWITPOWERZ!!!!111one. That's one way to build a character.

But suppose I want to play a ranger-type character with psionic powers? If I take even a level in ranger, Track is a bonus feat for me. Even if I start with a different class, Track is part of what I want to do. I don't mind taking the feat because I plan to use it.

Suppose I'm interested in scouting (I hear that goes good with tracking)... those skill points plus having Spot and Listen as class skills are looking mighty tasty. There's enough for me to MAX Concentration, Spot, Listen, and Survival without breaking a sweat. If I started with barbarian (I hear people like to dip that class for some reason) my Survival points will double for trap destruction through a barbarian ACF. Perhaps your DMs don't usually reward skill use, but I'll tell you true, in my campaign, PCs will fail more often and be rewarded less richly if they aren't competent in a variety of areas, and that means they need l33t skillz.

And HELLOOOO D8 HIT DIE and full base attack! I'm sure you can build a solid gish without hit points or accuracy, but given the contortions people go through to max out the base attack and hit dice in their gish builds, it's pretty safe to say that, like bacon and cheese, hit points and base attack make everything better.

Can you build a functional gish character that doesn't need a slayer's strengths? I'm sure you can. But I can build a function gish who deploys those strengths to great effect. Now, you may not ALWAYS NEED the slayer's strengths for every build you can conceive of, but that's balance. If a given PrC is a MUST-HAVE build ingredient for almost any build under the sun, that's a sure sign that it's overpowered.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 12:57 PM
... Back on the topic of Slayer: what about in an SRD-only environment? That's the only setting where I've really played around with psionic gishes, and there, at least, it seems like a very worthwhile investment to me.

SRD only, it is still only worthwhile for a Psion. Wilders and Psywars have actual, good class features, and so are better off not tanking an ML+feat on mediocre ones + decent capstone.

...Unless it fits your concept, that is, but I can fluff my Psywar as an Illithid/Aboleth hunter without Slayer anyway.

tyckspoon
2010-05-06, 01:00 PM
... Back on the topic of Slayer: what about in an SRD-only environment? That's the only setting where I've really played around with psionic gishes, and there, at least, it seems like a very worthwhile investment to me.


In SRD-only, it's basically a choice between PsyWar and Psion/Slayer. PsyWar's powers are more naturally suited to gishing, and they have faster bonus-feat acquisition, which is nice because Psionic characters can generally use all the feats they can get. The downside is slower and limited power acquisition and a much smaller PP pool, which forces PsyWars to play in a much more economical fashion.

Psion/Slayer gets you near full casting and averages close to or a little better than the PsyWar's BAB. You get a lot more powers and many more PP, so you can afford to be extravagant or wasteful with some of your choices. On the downside, your ML is worse, and you'll be spending feats or XP on acquiring choice powers from the PsyWar list, like Metaphysical Weapon, Hustle, and Lion's Charge.

Obi-Juan
2010-05-06, 01:20 PM
Slayer is fun to play. The fact peple tend to be on a consensus on its effectiveness is irrelevant. In my opinion, powergaming kills D&D quickly

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-06, 01:43 PM
Slayer is fun to play. The fact peple tend to be on a consensus on its effectiveness is irrelevant. In my opinion, powergaming kills D&D quickly

Some people find effectiveness fun. Things not being fun kills D&D. Powergaming is a form of fun. It is part of why people play. I believe "not disrespecting other ways to play" is part of the forum rules. Powergaming and not powergaming are both equally valid. Please do not say otherwise. Edit 2: Updated quote. Sorry if the above is now too harsh. Please keep in mind it is meant to be as inoffensive as possible whilst still conveying the same message when reading it. Each playstyle is equally valid and, when making absolute statements, should be treated as such.

Edit: On-topic: I agree with the people saying that it should be a choice to take a PrC. It has drawbacks but those are intentional, if you don't want them then don't use the PrC unless they are irrelevant for the duration of play. That it is not an instant gain over the base class in all situations is a good thing. It's one of few ways to make a Psion gish using only the XPH/SRD Psionics and additional books shouldn't be instantly assumed. That Psionic Body is worse than Improved Toughness ignores the fact that one is in the XPH and the other is in Complete Warrior (IIRC), an entirely unrelated book. Monks are considered terrible partially because their best items and feats are not in the obvious places (the MM contains one of the better Core Monk feats and Sir Giacomo often produces "viable Monk builds" using little to no abilities implied for use by Monks (e.g. UMD: not a class skill, neither Charisma nor Intelligence is in the section on important abilities for Monks and UMD is best used with all of these).

Also, that an ability is negated by the DM metagaming is not a valid point. Energy Immunity spells can be negated by the DM using different energy types via metagaming (without a check to recognise the spell, using an opponent that would not be intelligent enough to recognise that its attacks were not having an effect, etc.), that's irrelevant because metagaming in that way is not generally accepted (IME). If it is then surely the players can metagame in the same ways. Example:
"Oh I know I can't Scry the BBEG to know she's in [location], but I saw it in your campaign notes last week. That's not fair? Nor is negating a class feature requiring six levels to get to and you do that. Why shouldn't I use the same tricks as you?"

If someone wants me to split that down for ease-of-reading please say so and I'll come back to it.

Obi-Juan
2010-05-06, 01:45 PM
Some people find effectiveness fun. Things not being fun kills D&D. Powergaming is a form of fun. It is part of why people play. I believe "not disrespecting other ways to play" is part of the forum rules. Powergaming and not powergaming are both equally valid. Please do not say otherwise.

Just my opinion. Lemmie rephrase

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 01:57 PM
Slayer is fun to play. The fact peple tend to be on a consensus on its effectiveness is irrelevant. Powergaming kills D&D quickly

A Psywar 20 can be just as much if not more fun than a Psywar 10/Slayer 10.

This goes treble for Wilder in my eyes - again, they get actual class features, so there is definitely potential for a "fun" opportunity cost - they lose capabilities in exchange for slayer levels.

Nero24200
2010-05-06, 03:15 PM
At first blush this seems like a great PrC. 9/10 ML progression and full BAB progression, matrial weapon profiency. However, as I will detail, the lose one ML, and base class features are not justified. It may just be me, but I feel the "thou shalt no sacrifice caster levels" to be an extremly gross exhargeration. And given that, in terms of raw power and versitility, psionics tend to be weaker than their core counterparts, this saying becomes even less true.

I'd quite happily give up a single level of casting any day for full BAB and a martial weapon, with class features to go on top, even if they aren't that great.



Many people go gaga over Permenant mind blank, this however is a trap. An NPC with mind blank is very good because the PCs would have no way of detecting him/her. A PC with this class feature is pointless because your DM will always have metagame knowledge of everything you do. Some (myself included) would argue that it's a DM's job to engage the players. This means not only providing traps and monsters, but chances to use their class features. You wouldn't make a fighter fight nothing but rust monsters would you, so why would you go out your way to negate the mind blank?


Perhaps, but realistically, do you want to not be found? Your DM can say "you're right, nobody can find you" - and then the plot stagnates because finding you was an integral piece of it. Sorry, but if a plot rests soley on an NPC being able to get a spell off succesfully against a PC, then I can't consider it a fun plot. How would you handle it if the BBEG needed to scry on the party and they passed the will saves?


Cerebral immunity is nice and all but it is IMO redundant for most psionic classes since they either have good will saves or good WIS scores, or both. Then there is empty mind, a level 1 power that can Jack up your will save (as an intermediate action) quite high. Not always. The psychic warrior has a poor BAB and, considering the whole point of a psychic warrior is to be a psionic-gish, I can easily see players going into slayer with it. Having a good wisdom or decent save isn't always enough. Even if your save is through the roof, there is still always a 1 in 20 chance - and some people like knowing theres ways to get better than that.


Saying a DM can't use metagame knowledge against you is silly. ThenI know alot of people who are silly, myself included. I never have NPC's act on infomation they don't know. If one of my PC's ever finds a unique way to protect themselves (such as Non-Detecting when the BBEG is trying to scry on them) then it's only fair to let them have it. Otherwise, what's the point? No really, what is the point of such spells? You may as well just say "Put that school away. You can blast, but that's it!".

What's more, having the NPC's act this way has yet to cause any problems with my campaigns. Coincidently, every NPC I've ever seen which has acted on metagame knowledge has always come off quite obviously as false, and in most cases the DM pays for it in some way.

Gametime
2010-05-06, 03:20 PM
ThenI know alot of people who are silly, myself included. I never have NPC's act on infomation they don't know. If one of my PC's ever finds a unique way to protect themselves (such as Non-Detecting when the BBEG is trying to scry on them) then it's only fair to let them have it. Otherwise, what's the point? No really, what is the point of such spells? You may as well just say "Put that school away. You can blast, but that's it!".



Presumably, this school of DMing would involve using monsters with extremely high touch ACs and Evasion across the board if your casters are blasters. After all, why shouldn't he employ metagame knowledge to make all the PC's choices ineffectual? :smalltongue:

druid91
2010-05-06, 03:40 PM
Saying a DM can't use metagame knowledge against you is silly. Your DM simply knows everything your PC is doing. That is a fact. If he can't justify using divinitation on you then he will have a spy. Or he could just observe the effects of your actions, your teammates etc.


Ok, So If I were to sneak in invisible with mindblank on, and do nothing at-all except look around and map out the place in my head, I would be found?

again if their is a spy you kill them rendering that line of information useless.
Why would you have your noisy teammates with you when being stealthy?
As for observing the effects of my actions whats he observing? Me walking around invisible?

all the things you suggested have in game ways to eliminate them, If you don't give them that opportunity then you are simply railroading them where you want to go.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 03:48 PM
It may just be me, but I feel the "thou shalt no sacrifice caster levels" to be an extremly gross exhargeration. And given that, in terms of raw power and versitility, psionics tend to be weaker than their core counterparts, this saying becomes even less true.

I'd quite happily give up a single level of casting any day for full BAB and a martial weapon, with class features to go on top, even if they aren't that great.

You're hurting your own argument here. If Psionics are indeed weaker than magic (and they are), keeping ML high should be more important, not less.


Some (myself included) would argue that it's a DM's job to engage the players. This means not only providing traps and monsters, but chances to use their class features. You wouldn't make a fighter fight nothing but rust monsters would you, so why would you go out your way to negate the mind blank?

Samb misspoke in the opening post - he was referring to the nondetection, not the mind blank.

And as Cat Goddess pointed out - if you're the only guy in the 5-man band who can't be spotted, the BBEG can find the other 4 of you anyway, so what's the point?

And finally, your mind blank is not foolproof. You lose your focus when you go to sleep (and even when you meditate as an Elan.) Only a Psiforged can stay Focused 24/7, and even he'll drop it sometimes.


Sorry, but if a plot rests soley on an NPC being able to get a spell off succesfully against a PC, then I can't consider it a fun plot. How would you handle it if the BBEG needed to scry on the party and they passed the will saves?

He would try again, of course.


Not always. The psychic warrior has a poor BAB and, considering the whole point of a psychic warrior is to be a psionic-gish, I can easily see players going into slayer with it. Having a good wisdom or decent save isn't always enough. Even if your save is through the roof, there is still always a 1 in 20 chance - and some people like knowing theres ways to get better than that.

1) 3/4 BAB is not "poor." That's 1/2.
2) Psywars are excellent at melee (the best, in fact, short of uberbuffed full casters.) They don't need full BAB to be good at it. What they do need are feats, and Slayer has a heavy opportunity cost there.
3) Psywars don't need Slayer to Mind Blank, and theirs is up while asleep.


Then I know alot of people who are silly, myself included. I never have NPC's act on infomation they don't know. If one of my PC's ever finds a unique way to protect themselves (such as Non-Detecting when the BBEG is trying to scry on them) then it's only fair to let them have it. Otherwise, what's the point? No really, what is the point of such spells? You may as well just say "Put that school away. You can blast, but that's it!".

So does the BBEG only scry when the PCs are awake? If so, he deserves what he gets.

Flickerdart
2010-05-06, 03:58 PM
So does the BBEG only scry when the PCs are awake? If so, he deserves what he gets.
How does he know when they're asleep? It's not like PCs follow traditional sleeping schedules.

druid91
2010-05-06, 04:04 PM
And what if they don't sleep at all? or if they sleep in an extra-dimensional space?

Oslecamo
2010-05-06, 04:07 PM
2) Psywars are excellent at melee (the best, in fact, short of uberbuffed full casters.) They don't need full BAB to be good at it. What they do need are feats, and Slayer has a heavy opportunity cost there.

Kinda offtopic, but if you don't consider the psywar a caster, then a words of creation draconic inspiration snowflake wardance bard focused on buffs could probably give him a run for his money.

Samb
2010-05-06, 04:14 PM
You cant allways rely on Metamorphis to shore up your hit, and it wont do anything about your hp, unlike having an improved hd.

And if i wanted to play a one trick pony, then i would chose a warrior or a barbarian.


Im thinking about the real capstone.
And it comes back up after you spend your spare moveaction on it, defently worth the price.
You need to review your books. Metamorphosis allows you turn into any monster in MM1-5 (sans undead, outsider or construct). Calling it a one trick pony hardly does it justice.
The real capstone of Slayer is Blast feedback, not cerebral immunity.
You say cerebral immunity is worth it but you fail to consider that you need to be at level 9 slayer to get it. So not only did you sac a ML and class features for something that doesn't work in combat. You will be using linked power in combat right? I certainly hope so.



OK, you want to talk about overrated elements of the psionic gish arsenal? How about Psionic Body? I can't understand why it's considered good at all; I'd much rather be a Slayer than take Psionic Body.

I didn't say psionic body was the end all, I just mentioned it because it is a another way to increase your HP rather than sinking yourself into a mediocre PrC. PSV combo increases your HP by 10 each level (or 12.5 if you empower it).



Slayer is fun to play. The fact peple tend to be on a consensus on its effectiveness is irrelevant. In my opinion, powergaming kills D&D quickly
Hey I have played a Githyanki psywar/slayer just for the flavor. I was the leader of the illithid raids and mentor to coming of age giths. Yes it was fun, but I would be the first to admit that I missed the 4 bonus feats I could've gotten if I just went straight psywar. If you want optimization, which is what most build helps ask for, it is not optimal. Simple as that.

"You know we are not really invisible right? They could just look out a window and see us coming."
-Joker commenting on the Normandy's stealth system during Legion's loyalty mission

As for "non detection= awesome" I'll say that it has it's niche uses, like forward scouting, solo campaigns or a party where everyone is undetectable. But if you are in a party, if you talk to your DM and want to, you know play, then cerebral blind is useless.

DM: a bunch of guys ambush you
PC: I'm undetectable
DM: Ohhhh ummm then the day passes with nothing happening since I can't use metagame knowledge.

Yeah that looks real fun.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-06, 04:20 PM
Ok, So If I were to sneak in invisible with mindblank on, and do nothing at-all except look around and map out the place in my head, I would be found?

again if their is a spy you kill them rendering that line of information useless.
Why would you have your noisy teammates with you when being stealthy?
As for observing the effects of my actions whats he observing? Me walking around invisible?

all the things you suggested have in game ways to eliminate them, If you don't give them that opportunity then you are simply railroading them where you want to go.

Wizard scrys party... Wizard sees party waiting around in a room in the dungeon, often looking towards an open door. After a time, the party reacts to *something* and at least one person starts talking to an empty spot in the room.

Wizard now knows you exist, but needs more information. Sending minions to attack will probably cause the scry-proof individual to appear, at least momentarily. Sending a scry-proof (or at least very difficult to spot) minion to spy while other minions attack will allow for even greater intelligence gathering.

druid91
2010-05-06, 04:22 PM
Wizard scrys party... Wizard sees party waiting around in a room in the dungeon, often looking towards an open door. After a time, the party reacts to *something* and at least one person starts talking to an empty spot in the room.

Wizard now knows you exist, but needs more information. Sending minions to attack will probably cause the scry-proof individual to appear, at least momentarily. Sending a scry-proof (or at least very difficult to spot) minion to spy while other minions attack will allow for even greater intelligence gathering.

And if the party is no longer in the dungeon at all but in the wizards mordenkainens magnificent mansion spell?

Amphetryon
2010-05-06, 04:26 PM
Wizard scrys party... Wizard sees party waiting around in a room in the dungeon, often looking towards an open door. After a time, the party reacts to *something* and at least one person starts talking to an empty spot in the room.

Wizard now knows you exist, but needs more information. Sending minions to attack will probably cause the scry-proof individual to appear, at least momentarily. Sending a scry-proof (or at least very difficult to spot) minion to spy while other minions attack will allow for even greater intelligence gathering.

This wizard has lots of free time on his hands, or fortuitous timing, given how long it may take to sneak around a fortress.

We're rapidly approaching "Nuh-uh, my super-ninja-robot-cop's bullets are totally able to bypass your dragon wizard mind flayer's kevlar armor because I just gave them kryptonium casings" territory. Just a thought.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-06, 04:36 PM
As for "non detection= awesome" I'll say that it has it's niche uses, like forward scouting, solo campaigns or a party where everyone is undetectable. But if you are in a party, if you talk to your DM and want to, you know play, then cerebral blind is useless.

DM: a bunch of guys ambush you
PC: I'm undetectable
DM: Ohhhh ummm then the day passes with nothing happening since I can't use metagame knowledge.

Yeah that looks real fun.

It's being argued that Nondetection is useful for some things, not that it is awesome (you seemed to say it was entirely useless).

As for your proposed scenario:
A) That looks better than
DM: A bunch of guys ambush you.
Player: I'm undetectable, they wouldn't know I was coming.
DM: I don't care, they do anyway. Roll Initiative and here's their actions for the surprise round.
B) An ambush may not be possible, an attack is (assuming nothing but Nondetection, Superior Invisibility and Nondetection, for example, would be able to avoid even wandering random encounters). Even an ambush is possible if the enemies are waiting for anyone passing through, rather than the PCs specifically. So replace "BBEGs ambush team" with "random highwaypeople" and there, viable encounter (random highwaypeople would probably be weaker, due to not having prepared for the PCs, not being as high-level as the BBEGs forces, or the fact that the PCs are obviously avoiding more challenging battles (see "E").
C) I wouldn't want to be on the kind of rails you're used to if there is only one planned encounter and it relies on an ability the PCs have access to not being active.
D) There's always tomorrow, the game is not played in real-time. "Nothing of interest happens today, you wake in the inn rooms at dawn. What do you do?" is a perfectly acceptable speech from the DM.
E) If the player is employing abilities to avoid unnecessary fights then don't you think that that is, you know, playing? The game does not need to revolve around being in combat. Stealth and avoiding combat can be just as challenging and fun, people that like that kind of thing may fully appreciate the ability.

Touchy
2010-05-06, 04:39 PM
This wizard has lots of free time on his hands, or fortuitous timing, given how long it may take to sneak around a fortress.

We're rapidly approaching "Nuh-uh, my super-ninja-robot-cop's bullets are totally able to bypass your dragon wizard mind flayer's kevlar armor because I just gave them kryptonium casings" territory. Just a thought.

It depends on your DM really.

Also I was the only one recently posting a Slayer-build, possibly that other guy as well, I didn't check his thread.

Samb
2010-05-06, 04:40 PM
Wait I was wrong, plot won't stagnate if you are undetectable. You will likily be putting yourself in the BBEG's line of sight. This still doesn't help slayer's arguement.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-06, 04:46 PM
Wait I was wrong, plot won't stagnate if you are undetectable. You will likily be putting yourself in the BBEG's line of sight. This still doesn't help slayer's arguement.

What do you mean by the bolded section? (I'm not referring to the misspelling of the word "likely", BTW)

Samb
2010-05-06, 04:55 PM
What do you mean by the bolded section? (I'm not referring to the misspelling of the word "likely", BTW)

I mean most PC adventurers are proactive and seek out the plot rather than sit there and wait for the baddies to find them.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 05:24 PM
How does he know when they're asleep? It's not like PCs follow traditional sleeping schedules.

Have his divining minions take shifts. The nice thing about being the bad guy, is you usually have the manpower to do crap like that. Well, until they Fail You For The Last Time, anyway.


And what if they don't sleep at all? or if they sleep in an extra-dimensional space?

Why yes, a party composed entirely of Warforged Slayers would get around this. I tip my hat to your mastery of Schrodinger.


Kinda offtopic, but if you don't consider the psywar a caster, then a words of creation draconic inspiration snowflake wardance bard focused on buffs could probably give him a run for his money.

You can judge the effectiveness of one simple class versus an extremely niche and convoluted build all you like, I'm not going to stop you.

druid91
2010-05-06, 05:37 PM
I mean most PC adventurers are proactive and seek out the plot rather than sit there and wait for the baddies to find them.

HAHAHAHAha..haha.ha... Most of the campaigns I have played in the PC adventurers sneak around outside of the plot and then break the big bad in half by accident.:smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-06, 05:43 PM
I mean most PC adventurers are proactive and seek out the plot rather than sit there and wait for the baddies to find them.

In your experience. Note that there is not necessarily a set plot, some DMs run sandbox campaigns. Slowing the plot (if there is one) is not necessarily a problem in any case: if nothing important happens the section of time can be skipped, if something important does happen then the Nondetection has not stopped it anyway.

You seem to be disregarding the use of the ability for reconissance purposes, guerilla tactics and merely someone going ahead of the party and disabling some guards (all tasks well suited to someone with reasonable skills, HP and BAB (in addition to Psionic powers). Things that you argued were not worth taking the class for).

In your typical campaigns the class may not be worth much due to DM metagaming, plots which cannot be furthered unless X happens (where X can be avoided through Nondetection, an ability the DM would obviously know about and yet apparently not plan for), skill bonuses being unimportant or whatever else, but those are not universal. Classes work best when they are used in situations they are suited to. If someone is using the Slayer class then don't set up plots that require a single event that can be avoided entirely with one PC having Nondetection. Look up the Scrying rules instead of metagaming. Maybe include some skill based challenges and tracking since they get boosts to those. Two of those are frowned upon in the first place (railroading and heavy metagaming) and the third isn't more difficult than, say, making a Fighter seem useful enough to keep in the party and people do that all the time, AFAIK.

Edit: You didn't address sleeping in an extra-dimensional space, Optimystik. And a party of Warforged Slayers is probable and I didn't see anything that required being non-Warforged so it isn't a Schroedinger's solution. It's not as if Psionics is narrow enough to have only a few viable builds involving Slayer. It has 9/10 manifesting (effectively 10/10 with Practiced Manifester which means that you can drop three more manifesting levels to little effect) which is enough for 9th level powers and gets you more HP, skills and BAB than other Psionic Base Classes so there's plenty of variety. Since we're only talking about the first six levels for Nondetection there's even room another PrC each if they choose, adding yet more variety.

Samb
2010-05-06, 06:18 PM
I'm seeing a lot of specific situations to fit an expectation. All that really tells me is that it is indeed niche.

"I'll never expend my focus"
"I'll never use my focus again"
"I'll travel alone"
"I'll never sleep again"
"I'll kill all NPCs because they could be spies"
"I'll just sit in my safe house and never do anything"
"I'll just rule lawyer my DM so that he is paralyed by my 'no metagaming logic'"

Not only is this silly, and bad logic, it just proves that cerebral blind and immunity are highly situational. All your arguments and super specific situations are just self defeating.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-06, 07:16 PM
Aren't you taking this a bit...personally?

Kylarra
2010-05-06, 07:21 PM
It's worth pointing out that the assumption that the DM can just meta around your powers is also self-defeating, silly and bad logic.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 07:24 PM
It's worth pointing out that the assumption that the DM can just meta around your powers is also self-defeating, silly and bad logic.

Generally, it's safer to place your bets with the DM's plot than against it.

Amphetryon
2010-05-06, 07:26 PM
It's worth pointing out that the assumption that the DM can just meta around your powers is also self-defeating, silly and bad logic.
I'd be interested in a list of all PC abilities that a DM couldn't meta around.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 07:27 PM
I'd be interested in a list of all PC abilities that a DM couldn't meta around.

Iron Heart Surge :smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-06, 07:28 PM
Well, "DM is metagaming" is a condition that'd be affecting your PC.:smallcool:

Kylarra
2010-05-06, 07:31 PM
Generally, it's safer to place your bets with the DM's plot than against it.Of course it is, but I'm just pointing out that the assumption that an ability is worthless because the DM can just metagame around it is rather fallacious.

For the record, I feel that you've made a fairly good case for the drawbacks of choosing Slayer as a PrC target.

Amphetryon
2010-05-06, 07:37 PM
Iron Heart Surge :smallwink:
DM: "ToB is disallowed because Iron Heart Surge is written foolishly"

Hey look, meta.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 07:38 PM
Of course it is, but I'm just pointing out that the assumption that an ability is worthless because the DM can just metagame around it is rather fallacious.

For the record, I feel that you've made a fairly good case for the drawbacks of choosing Slayer as a PrC target.

Thank you; and for the record, I'm not saying Slayer is a bad choice by any means. 9/10 ML, full BAB and (Su) mind blank are worth it if you can't get anything else.

The problems arise when you can get something else; whether other PrCs, or a base class with good features.

So Slayer is best for Psions, as they get very little besides two bonus feats in those 9-10 levels.


DM: "ToB is disallowed because Iron Heart Surge is written foolishly"

Hey look, meta.

It's not metagaming if it never made it into the game.

Kylarra
2010-05-06, 07:51 PM
Thank you; and for the record, I'm not saying Slayer is a bad choice by any means. 9/10 ML, full BAB and (Su) mind blank are worth it if you can't get anything else.

The problems arise when you can get something else; whether other PrCs, or a base class with good features.

So Slayer is best for Psions, as they get very little besides two bonus feats in those 9-10 levels.My apologies if it seemed as if I were implying that you were claiming Slayer is a poor class altogether. I understand what you meant now.

It does seem like a fair portion of Slayer's hype comes from the fact we're used to arcanists/clerics who really don't have any other class features lost from PrCing out, with a minor nod to TU of course, so Psion would indeed be get the best use out of this, with classes that have actual features carrying more drawbacks.

Although really, that's not too bad of PrC design, since my opinion is that all PrCs should require some tradeoff for their toys.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 07:55 PM
I guess part of the reason I wasn't too fond of Slayer is that the best psionic PrC (progression-wise) in the XPH is a pseudo-ranger with an extremely weird ability (nyah nyah! Can't eat my brain!) that was clearly meant to be a gish. I mean, it out-manifests the PrCs that were designed for pure manifesters (Metamind and Uncarnate); that just burns me to no end. And the other one that's good - Thrallherd - happens to not only be built around the game's most broken mechanic, it actually improves it. :smallsigh:

So I suppose I'm not so much disappointed in Slayer... as I am everything else.

Gametime
2010-05-06, 08:14 PM
I'm seeing a lot of specific situations to fit an expectation. All that really tells me is that it is indeed niche.

"I'll never expend my focus"
"I'll never use my focus again"
"I'll travel alone"
"I'll never sleep again"
"I'll kill all NPCs because they could be spies"
"I'll just sit in my safe house and never do anything"
"I'll just rule lawyer my DM so that he is paralyed by my 'no metagaming logic'"

Not only is this silly, and bad logic, it just proves that cerebral blind and immunity are highly situational. All your arguments and super specific situations are just self defeating.

The fact that the DM could plant a spy doesn't mean he will. Stop equating "generally useful" with "highly situational," and stop saying that because a DM can do something he will. Your hyperbole does your argument no credit.


You're hurting your own argument here. If Psionics are indeed weaker than magic (and they are), keeping ML high should be more important, not less.

I disagree. The more powerful a level, the more useful it is. That's why people dip fighter and rarely wizard.

Now, keeping manifester level is more important from a perspective of maintaining [i]parity[i/] with a wizard, in the sense that a psion has to try harder to be as good. But from a perspective of maximizing power, the wizard's caster levels are more important because spells are better.

Boci
2010-05-06, 08:18 PM
"I'll just rule lawyer my DM so that he is paralyed by my 'no metagaming logic''

Wait, telling your DM that the BBEG and his minions have not read your character sheet and should not be able to use OOC knowledge to screw with your PC is rule lawyering?

Samb
2010-05-06, 08:21 PM
Aren't you taking this a bit...personally?
I'm taking this logically. If anything this thread is to combat the high hopes that Slayer usually fails to deliver. I know you guys think Slayer is the end all be all but it isn't. Me and Optimystik have flatly pointed that out. Many strange scenarios where brought up but none have proven that cerebral blind/immunity is an all around good features. In fact they prove quite the opposite; in specific situations Slayer is decent but in most others (for a PC) it is not.

You can talk all you want about how cerebral blind and cerebral immunity makes you invisible, but when push comes to shove a DM knowing everything about your PCs isn't metagaming; it's playing the @#$%$^'ing game. The DM just knows, period. He can and should adjust encounter difficulties on the fly; is that metagaming? When your DM does something that challenges you are you going to rule lawyer with him about how he can't that or will you kick some ass?

Maybe I have a different idea of how a DM should run his games, but as a DM myself; I will use all the info i have at hand (that includes your character sheets) to provide you with an awesome encounter. Does that make me an unforgivable "metagamer"? I don't think so.

Boci
2010-05-06, 08:28 PM
You can talk all you want about how cerebral blind and cerebral immunity makes you invisible, but when push comes to shove a DM knowing everything about your PCs isn't metagaming; it's playing the @#$%$^'ing game. The DM just knows, period.

True, bit the DM =! BBEG and their minions.


He can and should adjust encounter difficulties on the fly; is that metagaming?

No, thats them correcting human errer when they make the encounters too hard/easy.


When your DM does something that challenges you are you going to rule lawyer with him about how he can't that or will you kick some ass?

No, thats being a DM.


Maybe I have a different idea of how a DM should run his games, but as a DM myself; I will use all the info i have at hand (that includes your character sheets) to provide you with an awesome encounter. Does that make me an unforgivable "metagamer"? I don't think so.

As a DM you should use our character sheet, but he needs to understand that the NPCs and monsters he throws at you have not read it.

Samb
2010-05-06, 08:34 PM
Wait, telling your DM that the BBEG and his minions have not read your character sheet and should not be able to use OOC knowledge to screw with your PC is rule lawyering?

His minions and the Boss can't just be challenging? That's just the thing, a DM will still do his thing, cerebral blind/immunity be damned. If the next encounter is supposed to be an Inspired psion/crystal master 3 CR higher than the rest of the PC, that is also good at fighting other psionic users. Should the DM change it to avoid the Slayer saying "that's metagaming!"? I should hope not.

Gametime
2010-05-06, 08:35 PM
I'm taking this logically. If anything this thread is to combat the high hopes that Slayer usually fails to deliver. I know you guys think Slayer is the end all be all but it isn't.

But no one has said that. You're arguing against a strawman, and when people present reasoned, moderate arguments (i.e. that Slayer is a decent prestige class that delivers what it promises, sacrifices some power for other options, and will rarely be a bad option), you wildly inflate what we say to make our views fit into your preconceived notion of what we must believe.

No one here thinks Slayer is the best thing since sliced bread. We do think that it's abilities aren't worthless, which you have refused to admit thus far.

Demons_eye
2010-05-06, 08:38 PM
His minions and the Boss can't just be challenging? That's just the thing, a DM will still do his thing, cerebral blind/immunity be damned. If the next encounter is supposed to be an Inspired psion/crystal master 3 CR higher than the rest of the PC, that is also good at fighting other psionic users. Should the DM change it to avoid the Slayer saying "that's metagaming!"? I should hope not.

I would never use OoC knowledge with NPC's as a DM. I might use some resources to find out party traits then use that as justification to exploit weakness but that about it.

Boci
2010-05-06, 08:40 PM
His minions and the Boss can't just be challenging?

No they should be challanging. I never said otherwise.


That's just the thing, a DM will still do his thing, cerebral blind/immunity be damned.

Yes, and in the same vein, the DM should be able to make challanging bosses without granting them full knowledge of the PC's character sheets.


If the next encounter is supposed to be an Inspired psion/crystal master 3 CR higher than the rest of the PC, that is also good at fighting other psionic users. Should the DM change it to avoid the Slayer saying "that's metagaming!"? I should hope not.

That depends. Did the DM make this crystal master after consulting the slayers sheet and deciding this would be effective against them? then yes, he should change it. Did the DM have a rough idea of what the BBEG would be before the PCs gened characters, and it just happened that they are going to be good against one/some/all the PCs specific builds? Then no.

Kylarra
2010-05-06, 08:40 PM
His minions and the Boss can't just be challenging? That's just the thing, a DM will still do his thing, cerebral blind/immunity be damned. If the next encounter is supposed to be an Inspired psion/crystal master 3 CR higher than the rest of the PC, that is also good at fighting other psionic users. Should the DM change it to avoid the Slayer saying "that's metagaming!"? I should hope not.The problem with your assertion is that it falls flat on its face when taken with hyperbole, as you are wont to do. Yes, the DM should provide challenging encounters, and can, if the plot calls for it, obviate protections the PCs may have. This is not limited to the Slayer PrC, and if such is your wont to argue, then any (Su) or (Sp) abilities are also suspect as the DM can obviate them by simply placing antimagic/psionic fields everywhere "because the plot calls for it". You've got your shivering touch? Tough luck, the BBEG has scintillating scales up. You have dispel magic? BBEG buffed his CL such that you can only dispel his buffs on a nat 20, if that. You're coming to assassinate him? Tough luck, he has more stealth buffs and takes you all down in your sleep, etc.

Samb
2010-05-06, 08:46 PM
The fact that the DM could plant a spy doesn't mean he will. Stop equating "generally useful" with "highly situational," and stop saying that because a DM can do something he will. Your hyperbole does your argument no credit.
But the situations were lifted from the counter arguments raised on this very thread. I simplified then, but the fact is said situations were indeed used to defend cerebral blind/immunity. Optimystik pointed out that your whole party is still detectable, and that both are only active while you have focus. Both points prevent cerebral blind and immunity from being that useful.

I never said cerebral blind/immunity was highly useful, quite the opposite. It is niche. If you never use your focus in combat, if you travel alone, if you advance scout, if your whole party also has cerebral blind/immunity. Those were the only situations I could think of. I don't know how you could think that is considered "highly useful".....



I disagree. The more powerful a level, the more useful it is. That's why people dip fighter and rarely wizard.

Now, keeping manifester level is more important from a perspective of maintaining parity with a wizard, in the sense that a psion has to try harder to be as good. But from a perspective of maximizing power, the wizard's caster levels are more important because spells are better.

The lose in ML isn't that big of an issue to me personally, it is the fact that you give up an ML for...... nothing really. And it's not just about MLs, it's also PP, bonus feats, wild surge, mantles, surging euphoria, etc. You know real and useful class features that you give up. For something that really doesn't do anything.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 08:47 PM
Let's not get emotional here, guys.

On the subject of DM metagaming - yes, it is possible for them to do so... but I honestly don't think circumventing Cerebral Blind is an example of that. It is the kind of ability that should be difficult to bypass but not impossible - it should work only a few times/for a little while before the Big Bad catches on, otherwise he isn't worthy of the moniker at all.

Par exemple:

You're a typical Big Bad. You know the hero(es) is/are out there, that they're out for your blood, and it's in your best interests to keep tabs on them. Naturally, magical detection is your first recourse - thus, you scry.

Let's assume two scenarios - a Slayer alone, and a Slayer with a party.

Scenario 1: You fail to locate him, but your minions keep vanishing/dying. The path of slaughter leads somewhere, whether to your lair, the rightful king you've kidnapped and stowed in your oubliette, your precious phylactery, etc. Assuming you are worthy of your title and thus have an Int score (or take advice from someone who does), you correctly deduce that the hero is foiling your divinations somehow.

You can:
a) Wallow in ignorance and hope his horse trips on a rock on the way to your fortress;
b) Try not scrying at the same time of day, every day.
c) Resort to mundane means of gathering intelligence.

None of these are metagaming.

Scenario 2: The Slayer is with a party. You scry on them; assuming they are not all Slayers themselves, you've located your foe's group anyway. the Blind has not proven effective.

Pluto
2010-05-06, 08:49 PM
The DM just knows, period. He can and should adjust encounter difficulties on the fly; is that metagaming? When your DM does something that challenges you are you going to rule lawyer with him about how he can't that or will you kick some ass?

Samb, I agree with your general thesis, but this is just BS.

I mean, do your villains really know everything your PC's do, even when a player invests 6 levels to become situationally undetectable?

Nobody's arguing about the DM's encounter design.

People are arguing that Cerebral Blind is useful in doing the job that it was designed to do: keep a Slayer hidden from in-game Diviners and Seers.

This doesn't mean you as a DM can't run interesting encounters. It just means they might be slightly different ones than they'd be if you expected a puppet-master BBEG to be watching and deliberately dictating every aspect of the campaign.

There can even still be encounters with the villain or his mooks, be they the result of incidental run-ins or deliberate search parties.

The BBEG might be able to spy on the party, but the party should still have the option of going into hiding, should they want to invest the resources -- whether that means trekking into the Forbidding Wasteland of Dryness, Teleporting to the arctic or by using magical means of cloaking/veiling their identities.

Cerebral Blind isn't an end-all campaign win button, even if you let it work. It's not useless either. It's a distinct tool unique to the Slayer that can't just be ignored. (But comparing it to other classes' pay-offs is completely valid.)

Gametime
2010-05-06, 08:56 PM
But the situations were lifted from the counter arguments raised on this very thread. I simplified then, but the fact is said situations were indeed used to defend cerebral blind/immunity. Optimystik pointed out that your whole party is still detectable, and that both are only active while you have focus. Both points prevent cerebral blind and immunity from being that useful.

Emphasis mine. You simplified them to an absurd degree, then presented them as the original arguments, and acted as though refuting your highly simplified version was sufficient to refute the argument.

That is basically the definition of the strawman fallacy.

I don't think nondetection and immunity to mind-affecting is always useful. I don't think it is useless. Several situations have been offered in which it would be useful, and you consistently reply either as though those situations will never arise or as though we expect them to always arise. Neither is true.


I never said cerebral blind/immunity was highly useful, quite the opposite. It is niche. If you never use your focus in combat, if you travel alone, if you advance scout, if your whole party also has cerebral blind/immunity. Those were the only situations I could think of. I don't know how you could think that is considered "highly useful".....



Unless the BBEG is constantly scrying upon you, situational nondetection is still reasonably useful. Regardless, I was referring to increased hit points, skill points, and BAB, all of which are hallmarks of a good gish, as well as the constant immunity to mind-affectings effects, which is situational but very good in the situations where that applies.

I'm not sure why you feel it so necessary to prove that the Slayer is useless, or why you think we all believe it to be unstoppably powerful. I've never maintained anything more than that it is a reasonably good prestige class which does not represent a significant drop in power from the base class (or at least from a base class, namely the psion). It's existence, therefore, does not offend me.




Cerebral Blind isn't an end-all campaign win button, even if you let it work. It's not useless either. It's a distinct tool unique to the Slayer that can't just be ignored. (But comparing it to other classes' pay-offs would be completely valid.)

Quoted for agreement.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 08:59 PM
Nitpick: neither the Nondetection nor Mind Blank are truly "constant." Both are contingent upon your psionic focus.

You also cannot use your psicrystal's instead, though you can expend his to power your other feats while you stay blanked.

Gametime
2010-05-06, 09:03 PM
Nitpick: neither the Nondetection nor Mind Blank are truly "constant." Both are contingent upon your psionic focus.

You also cannot use your psicrystal's instead, though you can expend his to power your other feats while you stay blanked.

No, they're both situational. Unless the BBEG scries upon you regularly, though, they're reasonably likely to be active. If he tries scrying on you while it's up, it's unlikely he'll know to try again; and if he does, the nondetection probably wouldn't be of any help anyway since he evidently has other means of finding you.

But my position is just that a serviceable gish class with any decent class features is worthwhile. BAB, hit points, and skill points are all valuable assets, and anything beyond that tends to be gravy for someone determined to play a gish.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 09:07 PM
No, they're both situational. Unless the BBEG scries upon you regularly, though, they're reasonably likely to be active. If he tries scrying on you while it's up, it's unlikely he'll know to try again; and if he does, the nondetection probably wouldn't be of any help anyway since he evidently has other means of finding you.

That's the problem I have with this argument. If you're alive, chances are you're doing something to foil his plans - whether killing his minions, raiding his treasury, rallying an army to deal with him, etc.

Expecting a rational foe to throw up his hands and say "All these things are happening, but I can't scry the culprits, therefore they must not exist!" is completely unrealistic.

In addition, you lose your focus when you fall asleep. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm#gainPsionicFocus) That's 8 hours of detectability. You say that constantly scrying for you is metagaming? I say that perfectly synchronizing your sleep schedule to that of the Big Bad is worse metagaming.

Boci
2010-05-06, 09:10 PM
That's the problem I have with this argument. If you're alive, chances are you're doing something to foil his plans - whether killing his minions, raiding his treasury, rallying an army to deal with him, etc.

Expecting a rational foe to throw up his hands and say "All these things are happening, but I can't scry the culprits, therefore they must not exist!" is completely unrealistic.

True, but with scrying off the table countering this does get harder.


In addition, you lose your focus when you fall asleep. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm#gainPsionicFocus) That's 8 hours of detectability. You say that constantly scrying for you is metagaming? I say that perfectly synchronizing your sleep schedule to that of the Big Bad is worse metagaming.

Well look at it from the other side. You scry on the BBEG or his second in command. DM rolls some dice and informs you that the spells fails. How many more times are you going to try? 3? 4?

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 09:22 PM
Well look at it from the other side. You scry on the BBEG or his second in command. DM rolls some dice and informs you that the spells fails. How many more times are you going to try? 3? 4?

PCs and Big Bads are different. You're the ones on the move - he's far more likely to be cooped up somewhere with time on his hands than you are.

(Or he has a Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) flunkie watching the crystal ball.)

Gametime
2010-05-06, 09:22 PM
That's the problem I have with this argument. If you're alive, chances are you're doing something to foil his plans - whether killing his minions, raiding his treasury, rallying an army to deal with him, etc.

Expecting a rational foe to throw up his hands and say "All these things are happening, but I can't scry the culprits, therefore they must not exist!" is completely unrealistic.

Sure, but that's not true for all campaigns. Maybe the BBEG left you for dead in a desert and doesn't expect you to make your way back to the capital city with incriminating information that will unseat him from the throne - I dunno. Point is, it's not useless in a decent number of campaigns. It's not always helpful, and it's somewhat contingent on campaign, but arguably that's a point in it's favor as a well-designed prestige class.

Further, even if the BBEG knows you're coming, not being able to scry your exact position and capabilities is undoubtedly useful, in varying degrees.


In addition, you lose your focus when you fall asleep. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm#gainPsionicFocus) That's 8 hours of detectability. You say that constantly scrying for you is metagaming? I say that perfectly synchronizing your sleep schedule to that of the Big Bad is worse metagaming.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that unless the BBEG doesn't sleep at night, it's reasonable to expect he'll scry you during the day. He might not - he might expect defenses to be lower at night, which is of dubious truth value - but if he already knows that your nondetection is only certain to be down at night, he probably knows enough about you, personally, that the lack of scrying isn't an issue in the first place.

I'm not saying he'll never scry you, or that every instance of it is metagaming. I'm saying he might not, and that it is a not unreasonable assumption that the nondetection will prove useful in some capacity.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-06, 09:29 PM
Well, it's like this in the campaign I'm running...

In the past few adventures, the Wizard has been throwing Force Orbs & Magic Missles at every major opponent. Further, the party War Hulk always starts combat with full power attack and the party Cleric gets into melee range while having as many defense buffs up as he can manage.

Would it be so surprising that the next bad guy would invest in a Wand of Force Ward and a Scroll of Brilliant Aura?

Gametime
2010-05-06, 09:32 PM
Well, it's like this in the campaign I'm running...

In the past few adventures, the Wizard has been throwing Force Orbs & Magic Missles at every major opponent. Further, the party War Hulk always starts combat with full power attack and the party Cleric gets into melee range while having as many defense buffs up as he can manage.

Would it be so surprising that the next bad guy would invest in a Wand of Force Ward and a Scroll of Brilliant Aura?

Not at all, assuming he's been following their battles through divination or combat reports.

I'm not suggesting enemies can never prepare. I don't think anyone is. Extreme exaggeration doesn't help the discussion in any appreciable way.

druid91
2010-05-06, 10:06 PM
Well it is useful but no it isn't going to help you if you are a MAXIMUM POWER TOTAL DESTRUCTION!!! kind of player as far as I can tell.

All abilities are situationally useful or as you put it niche abilities.

I think the only one that isn't is HP.

Tinydwarfman
2010-05-06, 10:18 PM
Well it is useful but no it isn't going to help you if you are a MAXIMUM POWER TOTAL DESTRUCTION!!! kind of player as far as I can tell.

All abilities are situationally useful or as you put it niche abilities.

I think the only one that isn't is HP.

I think the bigger one is full bab and 9/10 manifesting.

druid91
2010-05-06, 10:22 PM
And how is a full BAB and manifesting going to help you bake cookies in old lady migwicks house, which do to being built on a psionic graveyard is a null psionic field?:smallconfused:

See niche, in specific the largest niche of heroic adventuring.:smalltongue:

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 10:43 PM
I think the bigger one is full bab and 9/10 manifesting.


And how is a full BAB and manifesting going to help you bake cookies in old lady migwicks house, which do to being built on a psionic graveyard is a null psionic field?:smallconfused:

See niche, in specific the largest niche of heroic adventuring.:smalltongue:

There's this thing called "Opportunity Cost," see...

Draz74
2010-05-07, 12:31 AM
In addition, you lose your focus when you fall asleep. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm#gainPsionicFocus) That's 8 hours of detectability.

*Gasp* Have we finally found a situation where the elven "no sleep, just four hours of trance" fluff is actually useful?!?

Still bothers me how they're like, "You're an elf! Your race is awesome at wizardry! You're not dependent on sleep like those wussy humans! ... By the way, you still have to sit still and do nothing for eight hours each night if you want to recharge your wizard spells."

CrypticOcean
2010-05-07, 12:36 AM
*Gasp* Have we finally found a situation where the elven "no sleep, just four hours of trance" fluff is actually useful?!?

Still bothers me how they're like, "You're an elf! Your race is awesome at wizardry! You're not dependent on sleep like those wussy humans! ... By the way, you still have to sit still and do nothing for eight hours each night if you want to recharge your wizard spells."

Or that Undead like Liches, or Living Constructs like Warforged, who require absolutely no rest, must do the same thing.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-07, 12:36 AM
Still bothers me how they're like, "You're an elf! Your race is awesome at wizardry! You're not dependent on sleep like those wussy humans! ... By the way, you still have to sit still and do nothing for eight hours each night if you want to recharge your wizard spells."

Not to mention that most of the elf subraces suck as wizards regardless.

Samb
2010-05-07, 01:42 AM
Emphasis mine. You simplified them to an absurd degree, then presented them as the original arguments, and acted as though refuting your highly simplified version was sufficient to refute the argument.

That is basically the definition of the strawman fallacy.
I saw Optimystik point out glaring weaknesses in cerebral blind and then receive counter arguments that were outlandish. Should I document them for you?

1)
Optimystik: You need to maintain focus
others: I will never lose focus then
me: then you won't be using Linked power?
others: I'll regain it with move action
Opti: so you will appear to blink in and out to the seer and hence he will know you are there.
me: which defeats the point of ability
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!!!

2)
Opti: you can be detected when you are sleeping
other: then I will only play warforged, elan, insomniac, and basically never sleep. Or I will sleep in a rope trick.
Me: which makes it only situationaly useful for some races, and sleeping in a rope trick and avoiding detection just means that feature is replaceable by an item.
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!

3)
Opti: You travel in a group that can be detected
others: I will only travel by myself then or only with other Slayers
me: Losing your team just so your class feature will function right doesn't seem like a good trade off. Niether does forcing your whole team to take the same PrC as you.
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!


I disagree with you, you can stop with the semantics and name calling. "Strawman" is the new "ad hominem" of the internet. You chuck it around and hope to discredit someone else. I have given you a brief summary of the tick for tack, and if you want to call a summary "Strawman" then suit yourself.



I don't think nondetection and immunity to mind-affecting is always useful. I don't think it is useless. Several situations have been offered in which it would be useful, and you consistently reply either as though those situations will never arise or as though we expect them to always arise. Neither is true.

I don't think it is that useful and I have explained why. You paid an opportunity cost that in general isn't worth it.




Unless the BBEG is constantly scrying upon you, situational nondetection is still reasonably useful. Regardless, I was referring to increased hit points, skill points, and BAB, all of which are hallmarks of a good gish, as well as the constant immunity to mind-affectings effects, which is situational but very good in the situations where that applies.
Well we agree it is only situational at least. Hit points, attack rolls can be done via other means namely metamorphosis. I mentioned that PSV increases hp by 10 each level, once you have schism you can "regen" your vigor while full attacking. Did you need Slayer for that? No.



I'm not sure why you feel it so necessary to prove that the Slayer is useless, or why you think we all believe it to be unstoppably powerful. I've never maintained anything more than that it is a reasonably good prestige class which does not represent a significant drop in power from the base class (or at least from a base class, namely the psion). It's existence, therefore, does not offend me.
It is situationaly useful, like when killing illithid and to qualify for feats faster. The title says "not that great" not "sucks badly". Many people only see full BAB and 9/10 ML and forget that you sac class features as well. Many people automatically flock to it for that reason when staying in your base class might be the smarter choice.

Boci
2010-05-07, 04:26 AM
I saw Optimystik point out glaring weaknesses in cerebral blind and then receive counter arguments that were outlandish. Should I document them for you?

others: I will never lose focus then

Can you quote others saying that, and prove that EVERYONE on this thread who thinks the slayer is a good PrC supports this?

Even during combat, there are some nasty mind affecting spells that offer no save, such as ray of dizzyness and otto's irresistable dance.


PCs and Big Bads are different. You're the ones on the move - he's far more likely to be cooped up somewhere with time on his hands than you are.

Depends on the game really. In mine the BBEG is usually just as busy as the PCs, even if he does have a base for his operations. I'm suprised you haven't mentioned contact outer plane yet. You seem to like that spell for situations such as this.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 05:31 AM
*Gasp* Have we finally found a situation where the elven "no sleep, just four hours of trance" fluff is actually useful?!?

Still bothers me how they're like, "You're an elf! Your race is awesome at wizardry! You're not dependent on sleep like those wussy humans! ... By the way, you still have to sit still and do nothing for eight hours each night if you want to recharge your wizard spells."

Actually, the focus loss applies to meditations/trances and other pseudo-sleep methods as well.

The window for the Big Bad will be smaller though (4 hours as opposed to 8.)


Even during combat, there are some nasty mind affecting spells that offer no save, such as ray of dizzyness and otto's irresistable dance.

At the same level you get the Slayer's mind blank, you can learn Personal Mind Blank, which stays up all day and night - even while you sleep. And you can get this without sacrificing a feat, ML and class features.


Depends on the game really. In mine the BBEG is usually just as busy as the PCs, even if he does have a base for his operations. I'm suprised you haven't mentioned contact outer plane yet. You seem to like that spell for situations such as this.

I was assuming a purely psionic campaign for simplicity's sake. I'm not sure how COP's presence would benefit a slayer anyway.

And it doesn't matter if the BBEG is as busy as the PCs - generally, he has minions and you don't, thus he can scry on the move.

lord_khaine
2010-05-07, 05:37 AM
I saw Optimystik point out glaring weaknesses in cerebral blind and then receive counter arguments that were outlandish. Should I document them for you?

1)
Optimystik: You need to maintain focus
others: I will never lose focus then
me: then you won't be using Linked power?
others: I'll regain it with move action
Opti: so you will appear to blink in and out to the seer and hence he will know you are there.
me: which defeats the point of ability
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!!!

Wow, thats funny, what i saw was you and Opti failing to deliver answers to our counterarguments that apply to anything but extremely specific situations.

"Opti: so you will appear to blink in and out to the seer and hence he will know you are there." Is a personal favorite, since it means the seer will be waching you the 1 minute or so when you are actualy in battle, talk about blind luck.


2)
Opti: you can be detected when you are sleeping
other: then I will only play warforged, elan, insomniac, and basically never sleep. Or I will sleep in a rope trick.
Me: which makes it only situationaly useful for some races, and sleeping in a rope trick and avoiding detection just means that feature is replaceable by an item.
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!

The sleep in a ropetrick is a pretty old thing, and it would be much more logical for a villian to try normal means of tracking if scrying fails to work.


3)
Opti: You travel in a group that can be detected
others: I will only travel by myself then or only with other Slayers
me: Losing your team just so your class feature will function right doesn't seem like a good trade off. Niether does forcing your whole team to take the same PrC as you.
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!


In that case the opponent will have incorrect information regarding your numbers, if nothing else.

Actualy, all this have made me agree with Gametime, you certanly do seem to build a lot of strawmen.


Well we agree it is only situational at least. Hit points, attack rolls can be done via other means namely metamorphosis. I mentioned that PSV increases hp by 10 each level, once you have schism you can "regen" your vigor while full attacking. Did you need Slayer for that? No.

Metamorphosis alone wont solve all your to hit problems, and it wont do anything regarding your hp.
also, at this point you are expecting to have share pain, vigor, schism and metamorhosis up, thats a lot of buffing, it wont help you in a ambush, and you will quickly run out of pp that way.
So, will Metamorphis solve all your gish problems? No...


It is situationaly useful, like when killing illithid and to qualify for feats faster. The title says "not that great" not "sucks badly". Many people only see full BAB and 9/10 ML and forget that you sac class features as well. Many people automatically flock to it for that reason when staying in your base class might be the smarter choice.

There are not a lot of psionic base classes whose class features are worth it.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 05:50 AM
Wow, thats funny, what i saw was you and Opti failing to deliver answers to our counterarguments that apply to anything but extremely specific situations.

"Opti: so you will appear to blink in and out to the seer and hence he will know you are there." Is a personal favorite, since it means the seer will be waching you the 1 minute or so when you are actualy in battle, talk about blind luck.

For the record, I've been concentrating more on the loss of focus during sleep than the loss of focus during battle, as I think that's a bigger issue.

Losing your focus during battle is more of a concern for the Mind Blank than the Nondetection, because the OID and other mind-affecting spells that have been cited here can nail you during that window.

And if you rely on PMB to cover up those gaps, then why bother with Slayer in the first place?


The sleep in a ropetrick is a pretty old thing, and it would be much more logical for a villian to try normal means of tracking if scrying fails to work.

Rope Trick is far from foolproof - even just using psionics, Remote Viewing - a 4th-level power - works across planes.

Again, I"m not saying Nondetection isn't worth it; I'm saying that players should think twice before sacrificing an ML and good class features to get it. The same lost ML could get me into Constructor, Crystal Master, Thrallherd, Sanctified Mind, Quori Mindhunter/Nightmare, a number of even more powerful 3rd party PrCs, or even just a Psywar dip for the feat/PP/proficiencies.


In that case the opponent will have incorrect information regarding your numbers, if nothing else.

...until the moment one of his minions reports your actual numbers to him, or he sees you all himselves.

And besides, what benefit will mistaking your numbers realistically have, anyway? Is he going to disable 1/5th of the traps in the dungeon because he thinks there are only 4 of you?


There are not a lot of psionic base classes whose class features are worth it.

That's not true at all - in fact, Psions are really the only one. Psywars get bonus psionic AND fighter feats, Erudites get penalized for having too many levels in a PrC AND get bonus feats, Ardents lose out on mantles, Psychic Rogues lose SA dice/skill points, and Wilders have plenty of class features to sacrifice, plus they are already behind a level on manifesting progression.

The "you must PrC mindset" is for magic users, not psionicists.

Boci
2010-05-07, 06:18 AM
At the same level you get the Slayer's mind blank, you can learn Personal Mind Blank, which stays up all day and night - even while you sleep. And you can get this without sacrificing a feat, ML and class features.

True, but its still a nice feature.


I was assuming a purely psionic campaign for simplicity's sake. I'm not sure how COP's presence would benefit a slayer anyway.

It doesn't benefit the slayer, it benefits the BBEG.


And it doesn't matter if the BBEG is as busy as the PCs - generally, he has minions and you don't, thus he can scry on the move.

But minions are not going to be able to scry that well.

lord_khaine
2010-05-07, 06:20 AM
For the record, I've been concentrating more on the loss of focus during sleep than the loss of focus during battle, as I think that's a bigger issue.

Losing your focus during battle is more of a concern for the Mind Blank than the Nondetection, because the OID and other mind-affecting spells that have been cited here can nail you during that window.

And if you rely on PMB to cover up those gaps, then why bother with Slayer in the first place?

Fair enough, though as long as you use a moveaction to regain the focus in the same round, then the window will be to small to be worth targeting.
The enemy would have to waste a standart action on the hope that you use your focus, and that he can detect you are using your own focus, and not that of your psycrystal, and even so there will proberly still be a save.

All this is of course still assuming some very specific knowledge regarding how slayer powers work, something i dont belive anyone but a slayer would normaly know to start with.


Rope Trick is far from foolproof - even just using psionics, Remote Viewing - a 4th-level power - works across planes.

Again, I"m not saying Nondetection isn't worth it; I'm saying that players should think twice before sacrificing an ML and good class features to get it. The same lost ML could get me into Constructor, Crystal Master, Thrallherd, Sanctified Mind, Quori Mindhunter/Nightmare, a number of even more powerful 3rd party PrCs, or even just a Psywar dip for the feat/PP/proficiencies.

But in that case, all you will know is your target is sleeping in some random pocket dimension, it should not let you find him.

And its not like nondetection is the reason to pick slayer, its just a nice sidedish on the main course.

Still, i am of course assuming you enter as a Psion/wilder/Psywar, since i cant imagine anyone else getting into slayer, therefore the idea of a Psywar dip confuse me in this regard, if anything it would mean less PP than staying in your base class.
As for 3rd party books, i personaly cant recall seing any really decent Psygish in those, and they are often quite difficult to get to use.


...until the moment one of his minions reports your actual numbers to him, or he sees you all himselves.

And besides, what benefit will mistaking your numbers realistically have, anyway? Is he going to disable 1/5th of the traps in the dungeon because he thinks there are only 4 of you?

The easy solution here is not to allow any minions to escape.

And he might make mistakes, like thinking he can just save himself the trouble and just go and crush you himself.


That's not true at all - in fact, Psions are really the only one. Psywars get bonus psionic AND fighter feats, Erudites get penalized for having too many levels in a PrC AND get bonus feats, Ardents lose out on mantles, Psychic Rogues lose SA dice/skill points, and Wilders have plenty of class features to sacrifice, plus they are already behind a level on manifesting progression.

The "you must PrC mindset" is for magic users, not psionicists.

I considder "that other book" a waste of paper, so when i think of base psionic classes i mean psion, wilder and psywar.
I dont think wilders class features are worth it after the first couple of levels, and for psions they are more or less nonexistant.

Psywars just lose a couple of feats, though of course they also dont get quite as much out of it.


At the same level you get the Slayer's mind blank, you can learn Personal Mind Blank, which stays up all day and night - even while you sleep. And you can get this without sacrificing a feat, ML and class features.


But at the same time you sacrifice one of your powers know and PP, and it goes down every second time or so someone throws a dispel in your direction (This happens quite a lot, at least from my experience).

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 06:42 AM
To Boci:

True, but its still a nice feature.

Again - not disputing that.
But there are other nice features - from my base class and other PrCs - that I'd rather have.


It doesn't benefit the slayer, it benefits the BBEG.

Then doesn't it hurt the Slayer's case? But I wouldn't rely on an arcane spell trumping a psionic character anyway - that would be Schrodinger. Again, for simplicity's sake I'm assuming a psionic campaign.


But minions are not going to be able to scry that well.

Aren't they? An undetectable slayer with only one lost ML is level 12 at the lowest. Clairsentience and scrying become a factor well before that level.

To lord_khaine:


Fair enough, though as long as you use a moveaction to regain the focus in the same round, then the window will be to small to be worth targeting.
The enemy would have to waste a standart action on the hope that you use your focus, and that he can detect you are using your own focus, and not that of your psycrystal, and even so there will proberly still be a save.

Keeping yours up to use your Psicrystal drastically limits what you can do in combat, especially where Metapsionics and Concentration checks are concerned.

And blowing your move action to restore your focus every round will either hamper your mobility or your power points (via Hustle.)

Unlike a non-Slayer psionicist, you will have to keep your focus up round after round rather than relying on PMB, which means you can never go all out. You also can never use all of your PP.


All this is of course still assuming some very specific knowledge regarding how slayer powers work, something i dont belive anyone but a slayer would normaly know to start with.

You can learn about any PrC with a Knowledge Check, remember? How did your PC discover the Slayers?


But in that case, all you will know is your target is sleeping in some random pocket dimension, it should not let you find him.

You see everything within 30 feet of the subject, therefore you see him and his party. You don't even need to focus on the Slayer - you can target one of his non-blanked party members that you've seen before, and watch them all take a snooze.


And its not like nondetection is the reason to pick slayer, its just a nice sidedish on the main course.

It and the Mind Blank certainly [I]are the reasons to pick Slayer. None of the other class features justify a feat and ML.


Still, i am of course assuming you enter as a Psion/wilder/Psywar, since i cant imagine anyone else getting into slayer, therefore the idea of a Psywar dip confuse me in this regard, if anything it would mean less PP than staying in your base class.

You lose the same amount of PP from going Slayer, because the first level is dead. In fact, you lose even more! Psywar can at least give you bonus PP from your Wis mod (which will at least be positive, because you need Psionic Meditation.) If you're an Ardent, you'll get a ton more PP this way, because it counts the bonus twice - once for each class.


As for 3rd party books, i personaly cant recall seing any really decent Psygish in those, and they are often quite difficult to get to use.

Untapped Potential and Hyperconscious have excellent ones, but I'll leave that for another thread. Certainly they have more combat applications than Slayer does.


The easy solution here is not to allow any minions to escape.

Isn't that the "I'll kill all NPCs" approach that you accused Samb of strawmanning?


And he might make mistakes, like thinking he can just save himself the trouble and just go and crush you himself.

That can easily be a double-edged sword. If he really can defeat you but is being cautious, seeing all of you may give him pause, whereas seeing only 3-4 of you may bolster his confidence.


I considder "that other book" a waste of paper, so when i think of base psionic classes i mean psion, wilder and psywar.

That's... unfortunate. Ardent and Erudite alone make CPsi worthwhile, not to mention gems like Anticipatory Strike, Metapower, Anarchic Initiate, and Synad. The other PrCs are lackluster I agree, but that's no reason to toss the whole book.


I dont think wilders class features are worth it after the first couple of levels, and for psions they are more or less nonexistant.

Educated Wilders are definitely worth it, and they can't afford to lose the ML that Slayer demands anyway.


Psywars just lose a couple of feats, though of course they also dont get quite as much out of it.

Again, a "couple of feats" is a big deal for a Psywar, because they get the best bonus feat list in the game to choose from. That's a high opportunity cost.

Psywars lose a whopping 4 feats by skimping to go Slayer 10. 5 if you count the one wasted on Track.


But at the same time you sacrifice one of your powers know and PP, and it goes down every second time or so someone throws a dispel in your direction (This happens quite a lot, at least from my experience).

If you boost your ML when you manifest it (again, a very good reason not to lose ML to slayer) then it is very hard to dispel. This is especially relevant for Wilders - their buffs are extremely difficult to take down at all levels.

Runestar
2010-05-07, 07:05 AM
Many people go gaga over Permenant mind blank, this however is a trap. An NPC with mind blank is very good because the PCs would have no way of detecting him/her. A PC with this class feature is pointless because your DM will always have metagame knowledge of everything you do.

As noted earlier, people use mindblank to ward against mind-affecting spells coming their way, and less so to avoid detection.

Plus, I too feel that DM metagaming is a very lame argument, since that could be used as a catch-all against just about any ability in dnd. In that same vein, I can also argue that fire resistance is pointless, since the DM can simply opt to use damage spells of a type the PC is not resistant/immune to. Heck, what's to stop the red dragon from using breath weapon substitution to get around the party's fire immunity?

So the real issue is not that a DM can metagame, but whether he should. For instance, power word spells can be extremely effective in the hands of a DM who knows the exact hp scores of the party at all times and not afraid to (ab)use this knowledge, but whether he actually makes use of this is another matter, IMO.


Full BAB is rare in psionics, but ultimatly unneeded since most will be matemorphing into something with full BAB anyway.

Since when does metamorphosis grant you the bab of your new form anyways? You retain your existing bab, modified by the physical stats of your new form, so better bab definitely helps in this regard.:smallconfused:

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 07:13 AM
As noted earlier, people use mindblank to ward against mind-affecting spells coming their way, and less so to avoid detection.

That's a non-issue - all of the psionic classes can get Mind Blank without Slayer, and it stays up all day.


So the real issue is not that a DM can metagame, but whether he should.

"Metagame" is a weasel word - it carries strong negative connotations that inhibit discussion.

Rather, we should say "should the DM circumvent your Nondetection?" And I say that yes, any Big Bad worth the title will find a way around it eventually.


Since when does metamorphosis grant you the bab of your new form anyways? You retain your existing bab, modified by the physical stats of your new form, so better bab definitely helps in this regard.:smallconfused:

Generally you will be using Natural Attacks when you meta/polymorph, reducing the relevance of BAB considerably.

ZeroNumerous
2010-05-07, 07:29 AM
Rather, we should say "should the DM circumvent your Nondetection?" And I say that yes, any Big Bad worth the title will find a way around it eventually.

I have to disagree with you there. Some Big Bads have bigger fish to fry than a bunch of mortals running around gathering power. In fact, many Big Bads have their own plans, and those plans rarely fixate upon knowing the party's every single movement and action. If he spends all day scrying then you have to wonder what the Big Bad is doing that's actually, you know, bad?

My villains, generally, have gods, demons, or other incredibly powerful beings to slay, dominate, absorb or otherwise release in order to do one of the prior. Messing with the party is, generally, what minions are for. And only when those minions have been defeated does the party actually register on the radar.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 07:39 AM
I have to disagree with you there. Some Big Bads have bigger fish to fry than a bunch of mortals running around gathering power. In fact, many Big Bads have their own plans, and those plans rarely fixate upon knowing the party's every single movement and action. If he spends all day scrying then you have to wonder what the Big Bad is doing that's actually, you know, bad?

I already covered this:
1) They don't have to scry "every single moment and action," nor do they have to spend "all day scrying." It simply means looking when the party's asleep - and how many fictional stories have we seen where the Big Bad monitors the protagonist while he slumbers?

2) Even if all-day scrying were required, the Big Bad has the resources to do this without parking himself, personally, in front of the orb.

(He can just buy a Teevo from Quest Buy too :smalltongue:)


My villains, generally, have gods, demons, or other incredibly powerful beings to slay, dominate, absorb or otherwise release in order to do one of the prior. Messing with the party is, generally, what minions are for. And only when those minions have been defeated does the party actually register on the radar.

And what is stopping those minions from doing the scrying?

Runestar
2010-05-07, 07:46 AM
Rather, we should say "should the DM circumvent your Nondetection?" And I say that yes, any Big Bad worth the title will find a way around it eventually.

My original point still stands. By your logic, a DM can easily circumvent any ability a PC gets, or sets it up so that its efficacy is reduced or made redundant altogether. In that case, why even bother acquiring any special feature, be it mindblank, elemental resistance, boosting your saves, getting more hp or even cranking up your bab?

I don't think metagaming is a bad word. More neutral, in that it is ultimately a tool. Depending on how the DM uses it, it can either help make or break a game. :smallsmile:


That's a non-issue - all of the psionic classes can get Mind Blank without Slayer, and it stays up all day.

I would like to point out that the slayer's mindblank is somewhat superior to the mindblank the other psionic classes get.

First, it allows you to selectively benefit from spells, meaning you can still benefit from morale-based effects such as greater heroism or bardsong while still hedging out spells such as dominate monster. Mindblank allows for no such distinction, it blocks out all mind-affecting effects, be they harmful or beneficial.

Second, it cannot be dispelled. This may not be so much of an issue at higher lvs when you have enough PP to recast it (though it can be annoying during combat).

To me, you play slayer for the same reason you play an eldritch knight - you want to make a gish character and straight wizard/psion just doesn't suffice, especially since psionics doesn't have the equivalent of abjurant champion or swiftblade.:smallsmile:

And just curious - when was it ever stated that the key reason people took slayer was for cerebral blind? That was seriously the last ability I looked at when evaluating said prc. I don't mind being scryed. I want the enemies to come to me, since we are presumably tough enough to take on whatever the DM throws at us. :smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 07:57 AM
My original point still stands. By your logic, a DM can easily circumvent any ability a PC gets, or sets it up so that its efficacy is reduced or made redundant altogether. In that case, why even bother acquiring any special feature, be it mindblank, elemental resistance, boosting your saves, getting more hp or even cranking up your bab?

I never said "easily."

It should be hard to circumvent Nondetection. Hard, but not impossible. And once he gets around it, he knows you exist, which removes a lot of the benefit to having it in the first place.

Nondetection is a special case. You can't compare it to elemental resistance, boosting saves and all your other examples, because those are combat considerations - they don't interfere with the DM's noncombat plot. Not being able to find your character does.


I would like to point out that the slayer's mindblank is somewhat superior to the mindblank the other psionic classes get.

It had better be for what it costs you to get it. 9 levels of class features/bonus feats, a lame feat (Track) and a dead level.

Personally, I'd rather have the "weaker" mind blank and keep my class features, feats and ML.


Second, it cannot be dispelled. This may not be so much of an issue at higher lvs when you have enough PP to recast it (though it can be annoying during combat).

Not only can it be recast as you pointed out, you can also make it hard to dispel in the first place.


To me, you play slayer for the same reason you play an eldritch knight - you want to make a gish character and straight wizard/psion just doesn't suffice, especially since psionics doesn't have the equivalent of abjurant champion or swiftblade.:smallsmile:

I personally prefer Sanctified Mind if you're going that route. And you can always just use 3rd-party books anyway (because WotC dropped the ball.)
Knight Meditant from UTP for instance.

Runestar
2010-05-07, 08:44 AM
It had better be for what it costs you to get it. 9 levels of class features/bonus feats, a lame feat (Track) and a dead level.

Which for a psion, works out to 2 bonus feats at most. For wilder, lack of wild surge progression is actually a hidden boon, since I believe someone has proven mathematically that wild surge actually gets less efficient as you level.

And they don't really have any other class features to speak of anyways.


It should be hard to circumvent Nondetection. Hard, but not impossible. And once he gets around it, he knows you exist, which removes a lot of the benefit to having it in the first place.

If a DM wants to circumvent nondetection, he can and will do it with 100% success. How do you even quantify "hard" when he can easily access the resources with which to punch right through nondetection? He is not some PC whose success hinges on a difficult skill check or something...


You can't compare it to elemental resistance, boosting saves and all your other examples, because those are combat considerations - they don't interfere with the DM's noncombat plot. Not being able to find your character does.

If the DM wants your party to encounter a fight there and then, he will plant foes in the party's path. They can be random encounters or a "chance" encounter with the BBEG's minions. It is really all in the justification.

Nor do I see the significance of making the distinction between combat/non-combat abilities. The bottom line, IMO, is that you have put in effort into acquiring a certain ability, and naturally want to benefit as much from it as possible. Whether you can however, is still entirely up to the purview of the DM.

Boci
2010-05-07, 09:02 AM
And what is stopping those minions from doing the scrying?

Nothing, but the CL and DC of the spell will be lower.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 09:10 AM
Which for a psion, works out to 2 bonus feats at most. For wilder, lack of wild surge progression is actually a hidden boon, since I believe someone has proven mathematically that wild surge actually gets less efficient as you level.

And they don't really have any other class features to speak of anyways.

For Psions, I've already stated that Slayer is not a bad choice - provided other PrCs are not available.
But Thrallherd, Constructor, Sanctified Mind, Anarchic Initiate, 3rd party and even Crystal Master are all stronger choices in my opinion, and I've given my reasons numerous times.

For Educated Wilder, you're giving up Wild Surge, powers (via Expanded Knowledge) and Surging Euphoria.
With Wild Surge, the only drawback is enervation - which is a mere 30% chance at the full +6 ML. Frankly, I don't see the big problem with Enervation. Yes you lose PP, but it already paid for your augments, so that's almost a wash even if it does happen. You lose actions which doesn't matter when buffing before combat or if you nuke the bad guy to finish combat. And there are ways to not succumb to the daze effect even if it happens - feats, Sanctified Mind. And it's still a 70% chance to not happen.


If a DM wants to circumvent nondetection, he can and will do it with 100% success. How do you even quantify "hard" when he can easily access the resources with which to punch right through nondetection? He is not some PC whose success hinges on a difficult skill check or something...

Earlier in the thread, someone posted the example of "The Big Bad can't find you if you teleport away." This is very true; even if you land in front of the Big Bad's spy it's going to take him a while to send word of your presence. This is what I mean by hard.

What I don't mean is "I rely exclusively on divinations for information, therefore I am at a complete loss when faced with a Slayer."


Nor do I see the significance of making the distinction between combat/non-combat abilities. The bottom line, IMO, is that you have put in effort into acquiring a certain ability, and naturally want to benefit as much from it as possible. Whether you can however, is still entirely up to the purview of the DM.

There is a pretty big significance. Noncombat abilities, like social skills, directly affect the plot. If you Diplomance the king, then the DM's plot to have you falsely accused of X crime and thrown into the dungeons isn't going to work. If you Bluff the guard, he will open your antimagic cell with his mundane key. And so on.

druid91
2010-05-07, 09:17 AM
I saw Optimystik point out glaring weaknesses in cerebral blind and then receive counter arguments that were outlandish. Should I document them for you?

1)
Optimystik: You need to maintain focus
others: I will never lose focus then
me: then you won't be using Linked power?
others: I'll regain it with move action
Opti: so you will appear to blink in and out to the seer and hence he will know you are there.
me: which defeats the point of ability
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!!!

2)
Opti: you can be detected when you are sleeping
other: then I will only play warforged, elan, insomniac, and basically never sleep. Or I will sleep in a rope trick.
Me: which makes it only situationaly useful for some races, and sleeping in a rope trick and avoiding detection just means that feature is replaceable by an item.
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!

3)
Opti: You travel in a group that can be detected
others: I will only travel by myself then or only with other Slayers
me: Losing your team just so your class feature will function right doesn't seem like a good trade off. Niether does forcing your whole team to take the same PrC as you.
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!


I disagree with you, you can stop with the semantics and name calling. "Strawman" is the new "ad hominem" of the internet. You chuck it around and hope to discredit someone else. I have given you a brief summary of the tick for tack, and if you want to call a summary "Strawman" then suit yourself.


I don't think it is that useful and I have explained why. You paid an opportunity cost that in general isn't worth it.



Well we agree it is only situational at least. Hit points, attack rolls can be done via other means namely metamorphosis. I mentioned that PSV increases hp by 10 each level, once you have schism you can "regen" your vigor while full attacking. Did you need Slayer for that? No.


It is situationaly useful, like when killing illithid and to qualify for feats faster. The title says "not that great" not "sucks badly". Many people only see full BAB and 9/10 ML and forget that you sac class features as well. Many people automatically flock to it for that reason when staying in your base class might be the smarter choice.

1.) What is this linked power you speak of? I assume its a meta-psionic feat so what if they don't have that feat? I never did when I played a psionic character.
2.)Sleeping in a rope trick is standard practice for adventurers once its available.
3.) You have never used flanking or pincer movements in your games? This would be a good example, the BBEG thinks the party is coming from the south and sets up his defenses based on that, then the slayer sneaks up from behind kills a few mooks, breaks something important, and fights his way to his allies for a cure moderate wounds spell.

Flickerdart
2010-05-07, 09:33 AM
For all the PMB proponents, you must keep in mind that manifesting it isn't free, and neither is learning it. You lose out on about all the PP you'd get in the lost manifester level of the Slayer, and a valuable power known. Unless of course you abuse Psychic Reformation, which is another power, more PP and now an XP cost. And it's also not up 24/7; unless you get up precisely the round before you cast it last time to cast it again, there's going to be a moment in which the BBEG can scry on you, and since he can apparently do so the moment you lose focus, there's no reason he can't do so then. Sure, PMB is somewhat better than the nondetection and Mind Blank effects of the Slayer, but it isn't a flawless and free option in and of itself.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 09:38 AM
1.) What is this linked power you speak of? I assume its a meta-psionic feat so what if they don't have that feat? I never did when I played a psionic character.

Having two foci - and being able to expend them freely - provides a significant boost in power vs. only one. If Mind Blank matters in your games, maintaining it is crucial, but the Slayer version will limit the metapsionic utility you bring to the table. And many other psionic feats/items require expending your focus to get the full effect.

And if Mind Blank doesn't matter in your game... then why are you a Slayer?


2.)Sleeping in a rope trick is standard practice for adventurers once its available.

1) Psions don't get Rope Trick.
2) Even in a game that mixes psionics and magic, it is very easy to defeat - again, I point out Remote Viewing, which works across planes. And if you're allowed to mix psionics and magic, so is the DM - therefore, his options for locating you increase exponentially.


3.) You have never used flanking or pincer movements in your games? This would be a good example, the BBEG thinks the party is coming from the south and sets up his defenses based on that, then the slayer sneaks up from behind kills a few mooks, breaks something important, and fights his way to his allies for a cure moderate wounds spell.

Don't Split The Party :smalltongue:
For your tactic to work, the Slayer has to be alone - otherwise, they will spot the unblanked schlub who has broken off to join Team B with you and you lose your element of surprise.

Now, I find nothing wrong with your tactic - indeed, being the "lone wolf" that sneaks off under a mind blank to strike the enemy from behind fits the fluff of a Slayer to a tee, in my opinion. But I still think it's a very niche role around which to base an entire PrC.

druid91
2010-05-07, 09:48 AM
Having two foci - and being able to expend them freely - provides a significant boost in power vs. only one. If Mind Blank matters in your games, maintaining it is crucial, but the Slayer version will limit the metapsionic utility you bring to the table. And many other psionic feats/items require expending your focus to get the full effect.

And if Mind Blank doesn't matter in your game... then why are you a Slayer?



1) Psions don't get Rope Trick.
2) Even in a game that mixes psionics and magic, it is very easy to defeat - again, I point out Remote Viewing, which works across planes. And if you're allowed to mix psionics and magic, so is the DM - therefore, his options for locating you increase exponentially.



Don't Split The Party :smalltongue:
For your tactic to work, the Slayer has to be alone - otherwise, they will spot the unblanked schlub who has broken off to join Team B with you and you lose your element of surprise.

Now, I find nothing wrong with your tactic - indeed, being the "lone wolf" that sneaks off under a mind blank to strike the enemy from behind fits the fluff of a Slayer to a tee, in my opinion. But I still think it's a very niche role around which to base an entire PrC.

Ok so linked power gives you multiple focus'/foci. seems useful.

____________________________________________

A less standard way is to do what I always do, in order to get some use out of my stronghold builders guide, and build yourself a super magic hut of doom.

one of the enchantments you can get not only defeats scrying it allows you to show whatever you want to show to the scryer, they see a bunch of goblins sitting in a hut playing poker instead of the adventurers plotting the BBEG's downfall.
Also make it mobile and capable of phasing into the ground and flying. Of course this option is ridiculously expensive.

______________________________

Isn't that the whole point of PrC's? To fit your character into a niche they are really good at?

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 09:54 AM
Isn't that the whole point of PrC's? To fit your character into a niche they are really good at?

Yes, but the niche defeats the purpose if you give up too much to access it.

Observe - I can do exactly what you did with your pincer attack, by using Personal Mind Blank. Furthermore, I'm much more likely to quickly dispatch the enemies, because I can afford to expend both of my foci while fighting. I can even afford to expend one of them suppressing my displays, which is pretty crucial if I'm being a one-man strike team, while the other powers my feats and metapsionics.

And I do all this without wasting feats and ML.

@Flickerdart: I'm not claiming PMB is perfect, but I'd rather lose a power known than several feats - especially when just one feat buys me another power known.

Amphetryon
2010-05-07, 09:58 AM
Earlier in the thread, someone posted the example of "The Big Bad can't find you if you teleport away." This is very trueTrace Teleport.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 09:59 AM
Trace Teleport.

The individual in question is Mind Blanked, remember?

Gametime
2010-05-07, 09:59 AM
I saw Optimystik point out glaring weaknesses in cerebral blind and then receive counter arguments that were outlandish. Should I document them for you?

1)
Optimystik: You need to maintain focus
others: I will never lose focus then
me: then you won't be using Linked power?
others: I'll regain it with move action
Opti: so you will appear to blink in and out to the seer and hence he will know you are there.
me: which defeats the point of ability
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!!!

2)
Opti: you can be detected when you are sleeping
other: then I will only play warforged, elan, insomniac, and basically never sleep. Or I will sleep in a rope trick.
Me: which makes it only situationaly useful for some races, and sleeping in a rope trick and avoiding detection just means that feature is replaceable by an item.
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!

3)
Opti: You travel in a group that can be detected
others: I will only travel by myself then or only with other Slayers
me: Losing your team just so your class feature will function right doesn't seem like a good trade off. Niether does forcing your whole team to take the same PrC as you.
Gametime: Samb is Strawman!

And now, for whatever reason, you have presented the original arguments in a more faithful form. Thank you. That much more accurately documents the back and forth that has gone on, and avoids hyperbolizing the issues as you did previously.

Unfortunately, you seem to have felt it necessary to horrifically oversimplify my own response in the process. It is almost as though you did not feel it was worth your time to respond to me in a mature way, and that you would rather extremely exaggerate what I said and then respond to that, acting as though you had refuted my argument when in fact you refuted only a caricature of it.

There's a word for that.


Well we agree it is only situational at least. Hit points, attack rolls can be done via other means namely metamorphosis. I mentioned that PSV increases hp by 10 each level, once you have schism you can "regen" your vigor while full attacking. Did you need Slayer for that? No.

Metamorphosis doesn't affect BAB or hit points. It can give you better attack (via strength and natural attacks), but it doesn't increase your hit points (unless it works fundamentally differently from polymorph - I may be wrong, here).

Further, as I said way back, metamorphosis is among the most powerful effects in the game. Saying you don't need slayer because you could transform is an argument that could be applied to every gish build in existence. It isn't compelling as an argument against taking the prestige class unless you want to completely, totally, fully maximize every last ounce of power you can squeeze from your class.



It is situationaly useful, like when killing illithid and to qualify for feats faster. The title says "not that great" not "sucks badly". Many people only see full BAB and 9/10 ML and forget that you sac class features as well. Many people automatically flock to it for that reason when staying in your base class might be the smarter choice.

The title says "not that great" but you haven't admitted that a single class feature of the class is worth a dime. Perhaps your definition of "not that great" is far more scathing than my own. At any rate, I still haven't seen any of these people who claim Slayer to be all that and a bag of chips, except as vague references in your own posts. Everyone in this thread, at least, has fully admitted that you sacrifice class features and a manifester level; we just think that cost is worth it, sometimes.

Draz74
2010-05-07, 10:01 AM
Ok so linked power gives you multiple focus'/foci. seems useful.

No, he had a reading comprehension fail and thought you were asking about Psicrystal Containment or something.

Linked Power is indeed a Metapsionic feat, from Complete Psionic, and you're missing out if you don't know about it. It's widely considered to be one of the best two things in CPsi (powerful, but not broken, unless combined with stuff like Synchronicity). It basically lets you manifest two powers with one action, as long as (1) they have the same target, (2) their combined PP cost is your manifester level or less, (3) one of them is delayed a round. (It's mostly useful when one of the two powers has a Swift Action manifesting time, so you can use that one to "quicken" the other for free, albeit with the one-round delay.)

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 10:06 AM
No, he had a reading comprehension fail and thought you were asking about Psicrystal Containment or something.

I didn't, actually. Linked Power, like every other Metapsionic feat, requires expending your focus. If you want another metapsionic feat added to one of the powers in the link, or to safely suppress the displays, manifest threatened etc. you'll want a second focus.

Thus my "having both foci is better than just one" discussion.

Gametime
2010-05-07, 10:07 AM
Now, I find nothing wrong with your tactic - indeed, being the "lone wolf" that sneaks off under a mind blank to strike the enemy from behind fits the fluff of a Slayer to a tee, in my opinion. But I still think it's a very niche role around which to base an entire PrC.

The nondetection feature is pretty niche. That's one of the things that appeals to me about Slayer, honestly; the idea of a specialist in one area is what prestige classes should be, from my view. I realize not everyone feels that way, but I think 3.5 would be healthier if most or all prestige classes focused heavily on proficiency in one area, instead of just sucking all around or being bearers of UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER.

Unfortunately, mixing the "I sacrifice versatility to gain specialized abilities" classes with the "I sacrifice hardly anything and get a whole lot" classes just results in the former looking pretty lame. :smallfrown:

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 10:14 AM
Perhaps I wasn't fully clear. I don't dislike Slayer for having a niche role - I dislike it for having a niche role that can be duplicated by a single power, which is available to every psionic base class. (Except Divine Mind, but who cares about them anyway :smallwink:)

And to gain access to that easily duplicated niche, you have a heavy opportunity cost built in if you are anything other than a Psion. Even they have one if you have more PrCs available than those in the SRD.

Slayer doesn't even get you there earlier than not taking it. PMB is Psion/Wilder 7 - level 13 for Psions and 14 for Wilders. Slayer 9 means you have to be at least 15 (Wilder) or 17 (Psion), due to the BAB requirement.

Gametime
2010-05-07, 10:39 AM
Perhaps I wasn't fully clear. I don't dislike Slayer for having a niche role - I dislike it for having a niche role that can be duplicated by a single power, which is available to every psionic base class. (Except Divine Mind, but who cares about them anyway :smallwink:)

And to gain access to that easily duplicated niche, you have a heavy opportunity cost built in if you are anything other than a Psion. Even they have one if you have more PrCs available than those in the SRD.

Slayer doesn't even get you there earlier than not taking it. PMB is Psion/Wilder 7 - level 13 for Psions and 14 for Wilders. Slayer 9 means you have to be at least 15 (Wilder) or 17 (Psion), due to the BAB requirement.

True. To be fair, though, Psions do have to spend a power known to get Mind Blank, or a feat. If we assume that the power is worth a feat, then the one you blow on Track doesn't seem like such a big deal.

At that point, you've lost a manifesting level for full BAB, better hit points, and better skills. Is it worth it? Not always. It's a damn sight better than the pathetic excuse for a gish class that is Eldritch Knight, at least.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 10:51 AM
It may be worth a feat (on a one-for-one basis) but you still don't have to spend a feat to get it.

Nor do you even have to spend a power known - A dorje or psionic tattoo (whether of PMB itself, or of Psyreform) can get the job done just as well.

So I maintain the opportunity cost of not going Slayer is much lower.

If I may ask, what's so bad about EK? Besides losing two CL anyway. (the dead level at the beginning, and the fighter level to qualify.)

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-07, 10:52 AM
The fact that cerebral immunity is selective (and nondispellable) is a huge bonus that at least matches normal mind blank's ability to protect you at night, in my opinion. After all, you can't use schism at all when you're using personal/mind blank nor can you use mind link, read thoughts, thieving mindlink, metaconcert, true/mind switch, or telepathy via the shedu crown.

That makes it an excellent class for telepaths, generally, since they can use all of their non-offensive powers and not be subject to getting dominated themselves.

Samb
2010-05-07, 10:54 AM
I think I did not frame my "DM will do what the DM does regardless of Slayer features" argrument well. I will give a more detailed and personal hypothetical example so it will hopefully lay this to rest.

DM: me
Setting: Eberron Adar vs Reidra high psionics campaign
Party: 4 Kalashtar members, one human psywar, one psiforged shaper.

I had hyped this Inspired general to the party but revealed nothing about him. He is know to be a powerful psion and brilliant tactician. The PCs are protected by the Shroud that surrounds Adar. The Shroud prevents any remote viewing and teleporting into Adar. In fact the PCs just strengthened said Shroud by braving the spheres of Korrandar and connecting the Shroud to a major artifact.

The Shroud is now a cerebral blind for the whole nation of Adar. The PCs have spend all their time on Sarlona under the Shroud. However, my Inspired general was able to glimpse my PCs thanks to the linked headband he placed on his minions. His minion equipped with this item, reports telepathically of the PCs' actions on the battlefield, while my BBEG is safe a in camp 10 miles away. By using linked items I partially nullified the Shroud to gain enough in-game knowledge. This is an easy and common way my intelligent NPCs scrye for info, and if it worked on the Shroud, it will work on a Slayer.

I had designed my general (shaper7/crytal master 10) to be the ultimate anti-psi psion. He most devastating weapon was a adamite whip with 15' reach that only needed a touch attack to entangle its victim. Once entangled it causes an Apopsi effect each round the victim was entangled. The BBEG could manifest powers while said victim was entangled as well. His psicrystal also turned into a psion-killer with metamorphosis. Obviously, this was built to kill psionic users.

None of my players cried foul. They could have said an anti psi build was me using metagame knowledge since the Shroud prevented any real info gathering. Yet even if made such an argument, I would point out the linked armor and I would tell them this is a "high psionics campaign" and the BBEG would not be changed from it original design based (potential) accusations of metagaming.

I know it's tl;dr but I'm sick of being assuced of strawmaning. That's the problem, if you simply debate the barebones you get accused of strawmanning, yet when you go into detail no one reads it.....

In sum:
1) Cerebral blind is easy to bypass, I used linked armor, since the Shroud is active even when you are asleep or when you lose focus.
2) I won't change my challenging encounters just because I'm afraid of my players accusing me of metagaming. I don't hold back my campaign designs based of such fears, and it was one of the best encounters my PCs survived (some revivifies and raises were used).

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 10:57 AM
The fact that cerebral immunity is selective (and nondispellable) is a huge bonus that at least matches normal mind blank's ability to protect you at night, in my opinion. After all, you can't use schism at all when you're using personal/mind blank nor can you use mind link, read thoughts, thieving mindlink, metaconcert, true/mind switch, or telepathy via the shedu crown.

That makes it an excellent class for telepaths, generally, since they can use all of their non-offensive powers and not be subject to getting dominated themselves.

Schism itself provides enough protection that domination should not be an issue. And if you're taking Slayer, you won't have the ML to spare for Thrallherd.

For the rest, if Mind Blank is that needed then you can do without skimming thoughts and the like until the danger is over.

Starbuck_II
2010-05-07, 10:58 AM
Perhaps I wasn't fully clear. I don't dislike Slayer for having a niche role - I dislike it for having a niche role that can be duplicated by a single power, which is available to every psionic base class. (Except Divine Mind, but who cares about them anyway :smallwink:)

And to gain access to that easily duplicated niche, you have a heavy opportunity cost built in if you are anything other than a Psion. Even they have one if you have more PrCs available than those in the SRD.

Slayer doesn't even get you there earlier than not taking it. PMB is Psion/Wilder 7 - level 13 for Psions and 14 for Wilders. Slayer 9 means you have to be at least 15 (Wilder) or 17 (Psion), due to the BAB requirement.

Psion 2/Warblade 2/Slayer 9= ECL 13. Same as when Psion gets it, but Psion can't get buffed by Schism, Bard song, etc.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 11:02 AM
Psion 2/Warblade 2/Slayer 9= ECL 13. Same as when Psion gets it, but Psion can't get buffed by Schism, Bard song, etc.

Losing more ML is not the answer :smalltongue:

Pluto
2010-05-07, 11:03 AM
Psion 2/Warblade 2/Slayer 9= ECL 13. Same as when Psion gets it, but Psion can't get buffed by Schism, Bard song, etc.
I don't think most people assume that the friendly neighborhood Warchanter/Kensai is going to give them BA for PrC entry.

Melee Class 1/Psion 6/Slayer X is more the typical entry.

Boci
2010-05-07, 11:09 AM
2) I won't change my challenging encounters just because I'm afraid of my players accusing me of metagaming.

Heres a question: If you design a BBEG as a psion who specializes in killing other psionic users, and your PCs then decides (without knowledge of your BBEG) to make a party of martial caster slayers, would you change the BBEG?

Also, did you make the crystal mind guy before or after knowing your PCs were psionic users?


and it was one of the best encounters my PCs survived (some revivifies and raises were used).

Irrelivant to the argument. First time I'm DMed I railroaded and the plot was very thin, but the player enjoyed it.

Starbuck_II
2010-05-07, 11:11 AM
I don't think most people assume that the friendly neighborhood Warchanter/Kensai is going to give them BA for PrC entry.

Kensai? I never remember that ability. But yeah it works, you never lose BAB when you stop qualifying for a Prc only class features. So the BAB requalfies you.

What is the cost for that usage (D&D never considered that)?


Melee Class 1/Psion 6/Slayer X is more the typical entry.

But then you don't get Class ability Mind blank till ECL 16.




Losing more ML is not the answer :smalltongue:


Just take Practiced Manifester.

You lose class based PP, but you get bonus PP from manifester level from higher one.

Draz74
2010-05-07, 11:16 AM
I think all this stuff about Mind Blank is really kind of missing the point. The big disconnect here, to me, seems to be whether BAB matters on a Gish.

I don't think any Slayer fans are going to advocate it being a good choice on a pure caster-style Psion. The class is clearly supposed to be for a Gish-type. And I haven't yet been convinced that any other PrCs are a better choice for a Psi-Gish than Slayer is.

Some of the anti-Slayer comments have implied that BAB is totally irrelevant for a Psi-Gish, thanks to Metamorphosis. I think that actually might be a crucial disparity between the two sides of this argument: those who feel BAB is still important, and those who don't.

For my part, I do. Metamorphosis doesn't have a super-long duration, and using it every encounter (or completely sucking at your Gish style, otherwise) gets expensive if you have a decent number of encounters/day. The action required to use Metamorphosis at the beginning of each combat is annoying if not prohibitive, and if I'm your DM, I'm also going to nerf Metamorphosis so that it's not so overpowered. I know it's still powerful enough (without the nerf) to be worth it ... but you have to consider opportunity cost, still. If the Slayer can use the same PP and actions to give himself other buffs, because he doesn't need a Polymorph effect to be good in combat ... well then.

Thing is, when I want a "Gish," my character concept doesn't generally include shapechanging all the time. Often it doesn't even involve natural weapons -- I want someone who goes around whacking his foes with a polearm or sword, dang it! And all of this makes me conclude that, yes, good BAB is necessary.

Samb
2010-05-07, 11:23 AM
And now, for whatever reason, you have presented the original arguments in a more faithful form. Thank you. That much more accurately documents the back and forth that has gone on, and avoids hyperbolizing the issues as you did previously.
You're welcome


Unfortunately, you seem to have felt it necessary to horrifically oversimplify my own response in the process. It is almost as though you did not feel it was worth your time to respond to me in a mature way, and that you would rather extremely exaggerate what I said and then respond to that, acting as though you had refuted my argument when in fact you refuted only a caricature of it.

There's a word for that.

Well I don't like being falsely accused. I offically withdraw the last quote in my statements.



Metamorphosis doesn't affect BAB or hit points. It can give you better attack (via strength and natural attacks), but it doesn't increase your hit points (unless it works fundamentally differently from polymorph - I may be wrong, here).

If what you want with improved BAB is better accuracy then metamorphosis does the trick. PVS is easy to set up since share pain lasts all day and vigor as well as schism can be linked. Once schism is up you waste no time at all rebuffing temp HP. None of what I said is dependent on you being a Slayer.


Further, as I said way back, metamorphosis is among the most powerful effects in the game. Saying you don't need slayer because you could transform is an argument that could be applied to every gish build in existence. It isn't compelling as an argument against taking the prestige class unless you want to completely, totally, fully maximize every last ounce of power you can squeeze from your class.
That is the very definition of min/max'ing isn't it? Most posts that ask for psi gish builts are asking to "be Optimal". Slayer, while fun and has great fluff, just isn't optimal.



The title says "not that great" but you haven't admitted that a single class feature of the class is worth a dime. Perhaps your definition of "not that great" is far more scathing than my own. At any rate, I still haven't seen any of these people who claim Slayer to be all that and a bag of chips, except as vague references in your own posts. Everyone in this thread, at least, has fully admitted that you sacrifice class features and a manifester level; we just think that cost is worth it, sometimes.

I have noticed a lot of psi gish classes asking for PEACH which include Slayer levels. I have said that full BAB is good for qualifying for cool feats like Rolibat's gambit and improved rapidstrike. Without full BAB, king of smack would not be possible until level 21. But if accuracy is all you want, MLs for metamorphosis is all you need.

Samb
2010-05-07, 11:31 AM
Heres a question: If you design a BBEG as a psion who specializes in killing other psionic users, and your PCs then decides (without knowledge of your BBEG) to make a party of martial caster slayers, would you change the BBEG?

Also, did you make the crystal mind guy before or after knowing your PCs were psionic users?
"High psionics campaign" implies that psionics and anti-psionics are part of the deal. I made her at the very start of the campaign, hyped her throughout but didn't give any details. Would I have changed her if they were not psionic users? No, but this would not be a "high psionics campaign" if the PCs weren't psionic to some degree. It's kind of the point of the campaign. I'm guessing you didn't read the spoiler....... can't say I blame you but I did warn you it was tl;dr.




Irrelivant to the argument. First time I'm DMed I railroaded and the plot was very thin, but the player enjoyed it.

The point was you don't have to compromise your NPCs just for phantom fears of metagaming.

Boci
2010-05-07, 11:33 AM
"High psionics campaign" implies that psionics and anti-psionics are part of the deal. I made her at the very start of the campaign, hyped her throughout but didn't give any details.

So far so good. What would have happened if the PCs had tried to scry on her?


Would I have changed her if they were not psionic users? No, but this would not be a "high psionics campaign" if the PCs weren't psionic to some degree. It's kind of the point of the campaign.

Its hard to imagine a party of martial characters who specialize in killing casters in a high psionic game?

Assuming it is, just assume that one does exist and your PCs are one. Would you change the psionic BBEG?


I'm guessing you didn't read the spoiler....... can't say I blame you but I did warn you it was tl;dr.

I did, it just didn't make much sense since I do not know much about the game setting.

Gametime
2010-05-07, 11:38 AM
That is the very definition of min/max'ing isn't it? Most posts that ask for psi gish builts are asking to "be Optimal". Slayer, while fun and has great fluff, just isn't optimal.



Sure. Are we only talking about min-maxing? I don't recall that being specified. Further, "optimal" is a vague word. Do they want to be an optimal Slayer? An optimal gish? An optimal psion? An optimal character?

If all you want is absolute power, a psion probably isn't the best bet in the first place. Optimizing isn't just making the strongest character you can - it's making the strongest character you can within a certain framework. If that framework is a gish, then Slayer might fit into it optimally, even if in a vacuum there are more powerful options.

Samb
2010-05-07, 11:42 AM
Its hard to imagine a party of martial characters who specialize in killing casters in a high psionic game?

Assuming it is, just assume that one does exist and your PCs are one. Would you change the psionic BBEG?
The human psywar was a Quori mindhunter so he specializes at killing Quori, which is what the Inspired are really. I didn't suddenly refluff all of Sarlona just to nerf him. And no, I didn't make my BBEG non-Inspired just to spite him. She was designed to kill Adarans, which she did well.



I did, it just didn't make much sense since I do not know much about the game setting.
Well..... read up then? I'm not sure my post will achieve it desired effect if no one knows about the war between the Inspired and the kalashar.

Obi-Juan
2010-05-07, 11:43 AM
Slayer is great, if used right. The 3.5 variant isn't astronomical, but in almost any Underdark Campaign or Lords of Madness campaign, an Illithid Slayer would be almost invaluable

Boci
2010-05-07, 11:49 AM
The human psywar was a Quori mindhunter so he specializes at killing Quori, which is what the Inspired are really. I didn't suddenly refluff all of Sarlona just to nerf him. And no, I didn't make my BBEG non-Inspired just to spite him. She was designed to kill Adarans, which she did well.

Then its not metagaming. What definition of metagaming are you using that caused you to think we'd call that metagaming?

Metagaming is when the DM allows his NPCs to use information they would not have. Building a random encounter specificly designed to counter a PC is metagaming. Equipting a BBEG with gear that counters the wizard's particular spell selection for the day is metagaming.

Building a BBEG and then not changing it once you know the party's make up is not metagaming.

Pluto
2010-05-07, 11:50 AM
Slayer is great, if used right. The 3.5 variant isn't astronomical, but in almost any Underdark Campaign or Lords of Madness campaign, an Illithid Slayer would be almost invaluable
If you're using Lords of Madness, you have the Sanctified Mind. SM's are able to ignore mind effects from level 1; they have all the same things the Slayer has, and better tools to survive to in order to actually use high-level abilities.

edit:
But yeah, Slayers are good. There are just other things now that are better.

Samb
2010-05-07, 12:08 PM
Then its not metagaming. What definition of metagaming are you using that caused you to think we'd call that metagaming?

Metagaming is when the DM allows his NPCs to use information they would not have. Building a random encounter specificly designed to counter a PC is metagaming. Equipting a BBEG with gear that counters the wizard's particular spell selection for the day is metagaming.

Building a BBEG and then not changing it once you know the party's make up is not metagaming.
My point is that a DM will and should do what he will do regardless of if the PCs are detectable. A DM will not change or alter his encounters on the fear of metagaming in the face non-detection.

Kylarra
2010-05-07, 12:14 PM
My point is that a DM will and should do what he will do regardless of if the PCs are detectable. A DM will not change or alter his encounters on the fear of metagaming in the face non-detection.Wha? :smallconfused:

Optimystik is providing good points, but yours are losing me completely.

I'm not seeing the causality between BBEGs going about their business and nondetection is worthless.

A does not imply B in this case.

Boci
2010-05-07, 12:15 PM
My point is that a DM will and should do what he will do regardless of if the PCs are detectable.

If they are all non-detectable and the DMs plans relied on the BBEG scrying on them then he does need to change his plans.


A DM will not change or alter his encounters on the fear of metagaming in the face non-detection.

You keep saying this. Kindly stop. It does not disprove any of the arguments used against you, or strengthen your own arguments. In short, it gets us nowhere.

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 12:21 PM
While the non-detection effects of mindblank may have questionable worth, the immunity to mind-affecting powers (which comes online later) is of tremendous value.

Further, the OGL version which is called simply Slayer, is a considerably better class.

Samb
2010-05-07, 12:22 PM
Wha? :smallconfused:

Optimystik is providing good points, but yours are losing me completely.
I do thank Optimystik for being so level headed. I'll try to clarify my position (again).


I make a challenging encounter. My PCs accuse me metagaming because their Slayer is non-detectable and hence the NPC should not be able to know any of the PCs' weaknesses. The fact is, the encounter was meant to be challenging from even without metagaming knowledge, this encounter just happens to focus on your weak points (why it is challenging in the fist place).

If a DM had to fear of being accused of being metagaming just because your Slayer is undetectable, then sessions would stagnate or degrade in trivial fights.

Gametime
2010-05-07, 12:28 PM
I do thank Optimystik for being so level headed. I'll try to clarify my position (again).


I make a challenging encounter. My PCs accuse me metagaming because their Slayer is non-detectable and hence the NPC should not be able to know any of the PCs' weaknesses. The fact is, the encounter was meant to be challenging from even without metagaming knowledge, this encounter just happens to focus on your weak points (why it is challenging in the fist place).

If a DM had to fear of being accused of being metagaming just because your Slayer is undetectable, then sessions would stagnate or degrade in trivial fights.

If you aren't metagaming, then you aren't metagaming. We aren't saying that any challenging encounter is metagaming, or that the Slayer should never be found just because he has nondetection. We're saying that if your plot hinges around the Slayer being scried, and your BBEG has no way to get around his nondetection, and he scries the Slayer anyway, then you are cheating.

Any DM worth his salt can find a way to detect the Slayer, if necessary, and without cheating in the process. But we aren't talking about accusations of metagaming. We're talking about actually using out-of-game knowledge to penalize a player. If you aren't doing that, it isn't an issue, so stop bringing up examples where it isn't the case.

Samb
2010-05-07, 12:29 PM
If they are all non-detectable and the DMs plans relied on the BBEG scrying on them then he does need to change his plans.
Info gathering is easy. An item with linked quality allows for 10 miles of communication.




You keep saying this. Kindly stop. It does not disprove any of the arguments used against you, or strengthen your own arguments. In short, it gets us nowhere.
The arguments used against me are that I shouldn't use metagame knowledge against my players. But does that mean I can't make any encounters to challenge them just because I have this knowledge? No, it doesn't. Challenging encounters are by definition hard. I make my BBEG well before hand to ensure they are tough enough detection or not.

The BBEG's tactics might change if they have prior knowledge but the build and items will not.

You want me to stop because you can't refute it.

Boci
2010-05-07, 12:31 PM
I do thank Optimystik for being so level headed. I'll try to clarify my position (again).


I make a challenging encounter. My PCs accuse me metagaming because their Slayer is non-detectable and hence the NPC should not be able to know any of the PCs' weaknesses. The fact is, the encounter was meant to be challenging from even without metagaming knowledge, this encounter just happens to focus on your weak points (why it is challenging in the fist place).

If a DM had to fear of being accused of being metagaming just because your Slayer is undetectable, then sessions would stagnate or degrade in trivial fights.

How many posters have said that making a challanging encounter automatically equals metagaming on the DMs behalf, because by my count its 0?

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 12:33 PM
Info gathering is easy. An item with linked quality allows for 10 miles of communication.



The arguments used against me are that I shouldn't use metagame knowledge against my players. But does that mean I can't make any encounters to challenge them just because I have this knowledge? No, it doesn't. Challenging encounters are by definition hard. I make my BBEG well before hand to ensure they are tough enough detection or not.

The BBEG's tactics might change if they have prior knowledge but the build and items will not.

You want me to stop because you can't refute it.


How about this?
I use, on a regular basis, a number of very powerful tricks to fire off divinations in combat. This will stop that. That makes it worthwhile.

Kylarra
2010-05-07, 12:40 PM
I make a challenging encounter. My PCs accuse me metagaming because their Slayer is non-detectable and hence the NPC should not be able to know any of the PCs' weaknesses. The fact is, the encounter was meant to be challenging from even without metagaming knowledge, this encounter just happens to focus on your weak points (why it is challenging in the fist place).

If a DM had to fear of being accused of being metagaming just because your Slayer is undetectable, then sessions would stagnate or degrade in trivial fights.That's either a strawman, or a worthless point.
Assuming strawman,
No one has claimed that the DM can't make challenging encounters. Full stop.

No one is claiming the nondetection is a be-all, end-all form of protection.
~~~~~~~~~~
Assuming it's a worthless point,
As the DM there's a certain amount of trust involved, and obviously one of those is that you're not going to abuse the knowledge that you have of the players.

You're presenting a false dichotomy of full-on metaknowledge and challenging encounters. As I said before, assuming that :

The problem with your assertion is that it falls flat on its face when taken with hyperbole, as you are wont to do. Yes, the DM should provide challenging encounters, and can, if the plot calls for it, obviate protections the PCs may have. This is not limited to the Slayer PrC, and if such is your wont to argue, then any (Su) or (Sp) abilities are also suspect as the DM can obviate them by simply placing antimagic/psionic fields everywhere "because the plot calls for it". You've got your shivering touch? Tough luck, the BBEG has scintillating scales up. You have dispel magic? BBEG buffed his CL such that you can only dispel his buffs on a nat 20, if that. You're coming to assassinate him? Tough luck, he has more stealth buffs and takes you all down in your sleep, etc.


You want me to stop because you can't refute it.There's no need to refute it. It brings nothing to the table.

Samb
2010-05-07, 12:57 PM
Well I think this thread has accomplished it goal for the most part. Cerebral blind/immunity is regarded as situational and hardly fool proof and for the most part obtainable with PMB.

Full BAB is good for feats. Metamorphosis still provides for much gishing activity.

HP can be almost a non issue with PVS. Buffing can be sped up with linked power and or temp accel.

General agreement that Slayer isn't all that.

I think my work is done. It was my mistake for introducing gaming philosophy into the debate. The crunch alone was sufficient.

Demons_eye
2010-05-07, 01:00 PM
Well I think this thread has accomplished it goal for the most part. Cerebral blind/immunity is regarded as situational and hardly fool proof and for the most part obtainable with PMB.

Full BAB is good for feats. Metamorphosis still provides for much gishing activity.

HP can be almost a non issue with PVS. Buffing can be sped up with linked power and or temp accel.

General agreement that Slayer isn't all that.

I think my work is done. It was my mistake for introducing gaming philosophy into the debate. The crunch alone was sufficient.


I don't think you have listened to anyone. You have just now restated your opinions and said that you are right. I for one disagree with 3/4th 9/10th of your post.

General agreement is not that slayer is all that unless I am reading this thread wrong.

Kylarra
2010-05-07, 01:07 PM
Well I think this thread has accomplished it goal for the most part. :smallconfused:

1. Your thread has a decent premise, albeit one that wasn't really contested for the most part. Sort of like saying "Incantrix is a strong PrC."

2. Your premise had faulty support from you.

3. ????

4. Premise is still good anyway so you claim successful thread?

Samb
2010-05-07, 01:10 PM
I don't think you have listened to anyone. You have just now restated your opinions and said that you are right. I for one disagree with 3/4th 9/10th of your post.
I guess you disagree that metamorphosis is a great gish ability, or that PVS combo provides lots of HP? Or that temp accel and linked power will speed up your self buffs? Or that cerebral blind can be bypassed by rather mundane methods? Because those were the facts that presented. If you disagree with them then that is fine also, we must play psionics differently then.



General agreement is not that slayer is all that unless I am reading this thread wrong.

Sounds like you agree with the title of this thread.

Boci
2010-05-07, 01:12 PM
Well I think this thread has accomplished it goal for the most part. Cerebral blind/immunity is regarded as situational and hardly fool proof and for the most part obtainable with PMB.

You have a strange way of saying something is a powerful defensive buff that does not require you to burn PP, spend a power known slot and is more resistant to dispelling.
Yes, it doesn't affect you when you sleep. Its still a powerful defensive buff.


Full BAB is good for feats. Metamorphosis still provides for much gishing activity.

Good BAB cannot be dispelled, and not everyone likes to change their form.


HP can be almost a non issue with PVS. Buffing can be sped up with linked power and or temp accel.

Is there any reason a slayer cannot do this? Also, see dispel.

Samb
2010-05-07, 01:14 PM
:smallconfused:

1. Your thread has a decent premise, albeit one that wasn't really contested for the most part. Sort of like saying "Incantrix is a strong PrC."

2. Your premise had faulty support from you.

3. ????

4. Premise is still good anyway so you claim successful thread?

I just don't see the need to continue it. I don't think the support was faulty, maybe you didn't like my tone but the crunch was there. If you wish to bias yourself based on my tone then I apologize for inadvertently offending you.

I have seen at least 3 psi-gish builds that had Slayer levels in it, this was really for the uninformed who think full BAB and HP is the key to this PrC. You aren't one of them.

erikun
2010-05-07, 01:16 PM
It has some costs and some benefits - in my mind, that's the mark of a well-designed prestige class. It should be a choice to enter it, not a foregone conclusion or complete waste of time.

If a given PrC is a MUST-HAVE build ingredient for almost any build under the sun, that's a sure sign that it's overpowered.
This, heartily agreed. The Slayer is a choice between features. Do you want full BAB, d8 HD, 4+INT skill points? Then choose Slayer. Would you rather keep that 1 manifester level and base class features? Then stay with the base class.

One of my biggest problems with Arcane is that the choice of classes becomes Incantrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, or Shadowcraft Mage. There's never the option to choose anything else because anything else sucks in comparison or is just a support option for one of the above.

--

The whole Cerebral Blind / Personal Mind Blank discussion has been quite amusing.

The argument against Cerebral Blind is that your BBEG is not stupid, and thus will continue scrying, and will eventually catch the party when their psionic focus drops. Furthermore, it is pointed out that the power Personal Mind Blank can replicate the effects of Cerebral Blind 24/7 without maintaining focus.

However, if Personal Mind Blank exists and the BBEG is aware of it, wouldn't repeated scrying after numerous failed attempts be just as stupid? After all, if scrying one and giving up is "hurr durr stupid" wouldn't scrying 50 times while the PCs walk in on him be just as stupid? It would make more sense to scry 2-3 times, preferably when he thinks the party's defenses are down, then resort to some other method of information gathering.

Yes, the Big Bad Divination Oracle Master would be able to identify the party eventually, regardless of Cerebral Blind (or Personal Mind Blank, for that matter), simply because he is so good at divining people's location. Yes, the Big Bad Spy Network King will be able to identify the party through repeated spy attempts. These are the defining features of the characters, after all, and wouldn't be overcome without a major devotion of resources on the part of the PCs.

The other 90% of enemies the PCs come across shouldn't be able to do so. Given a reasonable strategy to avoid detection (namely while sleeping), the BBEG will either walk away with no information or false information regarding the party makeup. To render Cerebral Blind "completely situational and useless" would be metagaming specifically against the ability, just as using only flying incorporeal undead against a chain-tripper would be metagaming specifically against their capabilities.

Demons_eye
2010-05-07, 01:19 PM
Sounds like you agree with the title of this thread.

Miss typed, so no I do not.

Samb
2010-05-07, 01:22 PM
You have a strange way of saying something is a powerful defensive buff that does not require you to burn PP, spend a power known slot and is more resistant to dispelling.
Yes, it doesn't affect you when you sleep. Its still a powerful defensive buff.
Psions have lots of slots, the most in fact of all published material. Using one to mimic a class feature is hardly a sacrifice. Same for PP, psions get a lot of them.



Good BAB cannot be dispelled, and not everyone likes to change their form.

Certainly, but good BAB vs. metamorphosis is just not optimal. You can build anything you want based on what you desire, but if you want to be optimal Slayer isn't it. Not everyone wants to be optimal afterall and I can respect, but most threads ask for help to be optimal.



Is there any reason a slayer cannot do this? Also, see dispel.
A slayer can do this, but he would have to pay opportunity cost, while a straight base class wouldn't. Funny you should mention dispel because a slayer loses a ML making them more likely to be dispelled.

Draz74
2010-05-07, 01:22 PM
I guess you disagree that metamorphosis is a great gish ability,

Yes.

Because "powerful" is not the only definition of "great." My definition of "great" also includes "is not a hassle to use" and "fits general Gish character concepts." And "is able to not suck at melee without resorting to natural weapons."

Kylarra
2010-05-07, 01:25 PM
I just don't see the need to continue it. I don't think the support was faulty, maybe you didn't like my tone but the crunch was there. If you wish to bias yourself based on my tone then I apologize for inadvertently offending you.This statement is clearly in the same lines as your previous ones, strawmanning the opposition while adopting the moral high ground based on said strawman. I challenge you to find any post of mine where I said anything based on the tone of your argument.

I've called you on strawmanning.
I've called you on making worthless points.
I've not once said "I don't like your tone".
All my posts save this one and the one replying solely to Optimystik


It's worth pointing out that the assumption that the DM can just meta around your powers is also self-defeating, silly and bad logic.


The problem with your assertion is that it falls flat on its face when taken with hyperbole, as you are wont to do. Yes, the DM should provide challenging encounters, and can, if the plot calls for it, obviate protections the PCs may have. This is not limited to the Slayer PrC, and if such is your wont to argue, then any (Su) or (Sp) abilities are also suspect as the DM can obviate them by simply placing antimagic/psionic fields everywhere "because the plot calls for it". You've got your shivering touch? Tough luck, the BBEG has scintillating scales up. You have dispel magic? BBEG buffed his CL such that you can only dispel his buffs on a nat 20, if that. You're coming to assassinate him? Tough luck, he has more stealth buffs and takes you all down in your sleep, etc.


Of course it is, but I'm just pointing out that the assumption that an ability is worthless because the DM can just metagame around it is rather fallacious.

For the record, I feel that you've made a fairly good case for the drawbacks of choosing Slayer as a PrC target.


Wha? :smallconfused:

Optimystik is providing good points, but yours are losing me completely.

I'm not seeing the causality between BBEGs going about their business and nondetection is worthless.

A does not imply B in this case.


That's either a strawman, or a worthless point.
Assuming strawman,
No one has claimed that the DM can't make challenging encounters. Full stop.

No one is claiming the nondetection is a be-all, end-all form of protection.
~~~~~~~~~~
Assuming it's a worthless point,
As the DM there's a certain amount of trust involved, and obviously one of those is that you're not going to abuse the knowledge that you have of the players.

You're presenting a false dichotomy of full-on metaknowledge and challenging encounters. As I said before, assuming that :


There's no need to refute it. It brings nothing to the table.

:smallconfused:

1. Your thread has a decent premise, albeit one that wasn't really contested for the most part. Sort of like saying "Incantrix is a strong PrC."

2. Your premise had faulty support from you.

3. ????

4. Premise is still good anyway so you claim successful thread?

Boci
2010-05-07, 01:28 PM
Funny you should mention dispel because a slayer loses a ML making them more likely to be dispelled.

Is there a psionic power I am not aware of that allows you to dispel BAB and hit points?

Samb
2010-05-07, 01:37 PM
This statement is clearly in the same lines as your previous ones, strawmanning the opposition while adopting the moral high ground based on said strawman. I challenge you to find any post of mine where I said anything based on the tone of your argument.

I've called you on strawmanning.
I've called you on making worthless points.
I've not once said "I don't like your tone".

Summarizing and breaking an argument into its fundamentals is not strawmanning. Neither is disagreeing with you for that matter.

I wasn't trying to take the moral high ground, I was trying to be polite. Your (over)reactions made me feel like you were offended in some way. Sorry dude. :shurg: However, I don't feel that my DMing experience was "worthless" but I could clarify that: "based on my own DMing style, cerebral blind would have little to no effect".

I do admit that bring up DMing/gaming philosophy was a mistake and a slippery slope as it is hard to justify one's playstyle when compared to others. I should have stuck to the crunch like Optimystik.

lord_khaine
2010-05-07, 01:38 PM
Keeping yours up to use your Psicrystal drastically limits what you can do in combat, especially where Metapsionics and Concentration checks are concerned.

And blowing your move action to restore your focus every round will either hamper your mobility or your power points (via Hustle.)

Unlike a non-Slayer psionicist, you will have to keep your focus up round after round rather than relying on PMB, which means you can never go all out. You also can never use all of your PP.

Not really, when i need to use the focus then i dont need the move action, at least it has not yet come up for me.

I dont know where the thing about not being able to go all out comes from, that have not yet been a issue, and unlike a psion using PMB i wont have to recast it.


You can learn about any PrC with a Knowledge Check, remember? How did your PC discover the [Illithid] Slayers?

There is a serious difference between knowing about a class, and knowing detailed information about highlevel class features from it.
In ToB there is some examples of what a knowledge check will tell you, and its nowhere near the level of information you are suggesting.


You see everything within 30 feet of the subject, therefore you see him and his party. You don't even need to focus on the Slayer - you can target one of his non-blanked party members that you've seen before, and watch them all take a snooze.

Yes, and? it still wont tell you anything besides that the people you are searching for is hiding in a pocket dimension.


It and the Mind Blank certainly are the reasons to pick Slayer. None of the other class features justify a feat and ML.

Sure they do.


You lose the same amount of PP from going Slayer, because the first level is dead. In fact, you lose even more! Psywar can at least give you bonus PP from your Wis mod (which will at least be positive, because you need Psionic Meditation.) If you're an Ardent, you'll get a ton more PP this way, because it counts the bonus twice - once for each class.


In that case you might as well not take that level, the whole idea of taking the first level slayer is to get access to the rest of the levels, the level psywar dont give you access to something, you would have been better served staying in your base class in that case.


Untapped Potential and Hyperconscious have excellent ones, but I'll leave that for another thread. Certainly they have more combat applications than Slayer does.


I dont think they are that good again, and as mentioned before its a 3rd party book.


Isn't that the "I'll kill all NPCs" approach that you accused Samb of strawmanning?

No?


That can easily be a double-edged sword. If he really can defeat you but is being cautious, seeing all of you may give him pause, whereas seeing only 3-4 of you may bolster his confidence.

Its not like you would not try to hunt him down anyway, at least this way you might get hold of him outside of his lair.


That's... unfortunate. Ardent and Erudite alone make CPsi worthwhile, not to mention gems like Anticipatory Strike, Metapower, Anarchic Initiate, and Synad. The other PrCs are lackluster I agree, but that's no reason to toss the whole book.


I dont think they are that good again, besides Anarchic initiate, who are on the level of brokenly good.


Educated Wilders are definitely worth it, and they can't afford to lose the ML that Slayer demands anyway.


But again, this is web material, you really cant expect to be allowed to use this by any gm.


Again, a "couple of feats" is a big deal for a Psywar, because they get the best bonus feat list in the game to choose from. That's a high opportunity cost.

Psywars lose a whopping 4 feats by skimping to go Slayer 10. 5 if you count the one wasted on Track.

I dont count Track as a wasted feat, as long as you have the skillpoints to learn survival as well.


If you boost your ML when you manifest it (again, a very good reason not to lose ML to slayer) then it is very hard to dispel. This is especially relevant for Wilders - their buffs are extremely difficult to take down at all levels.

Yes, and at the same time you can expect your opponents to do the same, or be higher level.
Personaly i though 50% chance to keep the power was pretty generous.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 01:44 PM
You lose class based PP, but you get bonus PP from manifester level from higher one.

I'd rather get both. Or failing that, bonus PP from Wis with a Psywar dip. Or failing that, a PrC that loses an ML but gives better benefits.


Slayer is great, if used right. The 3.5 variant isn't astronomical, but in almost any Underdark Campaign or Lords of Madness campaign, an Illithid Slayer would be almost invaluable

As I said in my very first post, there's no point in discussing Illithid Slayer - it's strictly worse than SRD Slayer. You can't choose your favored enemy and you have to somehow kill a CR 8 Minflayer at level 6 if you want the Mind Blank for any significant length of time during the pre-epic game.


The whole Cerebral Blind / Personal Mind Blank discussion has been quite amusing.


The argument against Cerebral Blind is that your BBEG is not stupid, and thus will continue scrying, and will eventually catch the party when their psionic focus drops. Furthermore, it is pointed out that the power Personal Mind Blank can replicate the effects of Cerebral Blind 24/7 without maintaining focus.

However, if Personal Mind Blank exists and the BBEG is aware of it, wouldn't repeated scrying after numerous failed attempts be just as stupid? After all, if scrying one and giving up is "hurr durr stupid" wouldn't scrying 50 times while the PCs walk in on him be just as stupid? It would make more sense to scry 2-3 times, preferably when he thinks the party's defenses are down, then resort to some other method of information gathering.

Yes, the Big Bad Divination Oracle Master would be able to identify the party eventually, regardless of Cerebral Blind (or Personal Mind Blank, for that matter), simply because he is so good at divining people's location. Yes, the Big Bad Spy Network King will be able to identify the party through repeated spy attempts. These are the defining features of the characters, after all, and wouldn't be overcome without a major devotion of resources on the part of the PCs.

The other 90% of enemies the PCs come across shouldn't be able to do so. Given a reasonable strategy to avoid detection (namely while sleeping), the BBEG will either walk away with no information or false information regarding the party makeup. To render Cerebral Blind "completely situational and useless" would be metagaming specifically against the ability, just as using only flying incorporeal undead against a chain-tripper would be metagaming specifically against their capabilities.



You're missing my point here - I've never said Cerebral Blind is a bad ability to have. Making it harder for the BBEG to keep tabs on you is never (or hardly ever) a bad thing.

My question is - is it worth waiting for 5 levels with weak class features? If you're an SRD-only Psion, then go nuts - you lose almost nothing and have a lot to gain.

If you have access to Mind's Eye though, or CPsi, suddenly Slayer isn't all that hot. If you're a base class with actual class features (Wilder, Psywar, PsyRogue, Lurk), or one with good reasons not to PrC out (Ardent, Erudite) you lose even more.

EDIT: Khaine, I'll respond in a bit after I get some work done :smalltongue:

Kylarra
2010-05-07, 01:46 PM
Summarizing and breaking an argument into its fundamentals is not strawmanning. Not inherently, but when you break it into easily refuted points that don't address the original argument? It is.

Neither is disagreeing with you for that matter.Never claimed it was.

I wasn't trying to take the moral high ground, I was trying to be polite. Your (over)reactions made me feel like you were offended in some way. Sorry
dude. :shurg:This is pretty clearly an I'm sorry you screwed up (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=0wvxa3v2o5lb4h4rmqvhf2kw)-style apology.
I'm not sure what you're seeing as overreaction, but for the record? I'm not even a bit angry. :smallwink:

maybe you didn't like my tone but the crunch was there. If you wish to bias yourself based on my tone then I apologize for inadvertently offending you.
"I'm right, you must be objecting to minutiae."
"If you want to be biased, I'm sorry"


However, I don't feel that my DMing experience was "worthless" but I could clarify that: "based on my own DMing style, cerebral blind would have little to no effect".I never claimed your experience was worthless. I claimed that the extrapolation you were making was worthless. The fact that a DM can work around a power has nothing to do with the power itself.

erikun
2010-05-07, 01:50 PM
You're missing my point here - I've never said Cerebral Blind is a bad ability to have. Making it harder for the BBEG to keep tabs on you is never (or hardly ever) a bad thing.

My question is - is it worth waiting for 5 levels with weak class features? If you're an SRD-only Psion, then go nuts - you lose almost nothing and have a lot to gain.
Well, true. I consider the Slayer to be, at the core, a gish that works. Full BAB, (almost) full manifesting, good HP and skills. Everything else is mainly a nice bonus.

If you have a base class that already has the abilities of a very good gish, then you wouldn't want to loose them by going Slayer. I don't think I've every recommended an Ardent/Slayer or PsyRogue/Slayer, for example.

Obi-Juan
2010-05-07, 01:54 PM
illithid slayer is among my fave PrCs for Psigish builds, used in the same method as Eldritch Knight/Knight Phantom or Abjurant Champ

Samb
2010-05-07, 02:05 PM
Not inherently, but when you break it into easily refuted points that don't address the original argument? It is.
Never claimed it was.
Agreeing with my premise is enough for me. I presented the original topic, I listed my points. I basically said the same thing as Optimystik yet I am "strawmanned" while Optimystik is lauded. I think I have a right to feel biased against.


This is pretty clearly an I'm sorry you screwed up (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=0wvxa3v2o5lb4h4rmqvhf2kw)-style apology.
I'm going to use an "I" statement here and say:
"I think that sounds like you not linking my tone" No really, relax, I don't live in a piece of fiction so citing tvtropes won't help the situation.


The fact that a DM can work around a power has nothing to do with the power itself.
I thought Optimystik already addressed this...... well I did too but when I say it i comes off as strawmanning so I just let him do the talking......

The issue is that this feature can be replicated without going into Slayer itself. Oh and the fact that it can be easily work around it making it even less useful.

Is directly addressing the issue also strawmanning????

From my perspective: I state why cerebral blind isn't that good because it can be bypassed with other mundane methods, not active all the time, restricts use of focus, can be done more or less by one power, done sooner with no opportunity cost.

You say: none of that matters, "it has nothing to do with the power itself"
It's not that I am strawmanning it is you are just refusing to see the evidence presented. All counter debates are "worthless".

Samb
2010-05-07, 02:06 PM
Well, true. I consider the Slayer to be, at the core, a gish that works. Full BAB, (almost) full manifesting, good HP and skills. Everything else is mainly a nice bonus.

If you have a base class that already has the abilities of a very good gish, then you wouldn't want to loose them by going Slayer. I don't think I've every recommended an Ardent/Slayer or PsyRogue/Slayer, for example.
QFT
This was really what I was going for.....

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 02:06 PM
Not really, when i need to use the focus then i dont need the move action, at least it has not yet come up for me.

I dont know where the thing about not being able to go all out comes from, that have not yet been a issue, and unlike a psion using PMB i wont have to recast it.

If you ever run out of PP, you can neither gain nor maintain a psionic focus. Meaning that if you're in a pitched battle and are down to 17PP, you now cannot manifest that clutch 9th-level power or you will lose your Mind Blank. But the Psion with PMB up can do so freely.


There is a serious difference between knowing about a class, and knowing detailed information about highlevel class features from it.
In ToB there is some examples of what a knowledge check will tell you, and its nowhere near the level of information you are suggesting.

There's a line there that the DM has to draw, certainly. But figuring out that experienced Slayers can't be spied on is likely a facet of Illithid lore.


Yes, and? it still wont tell you anything besides that the people you are searching for is hiding in a pocket dimension.

It lets you count them. The whole point of the "we'll sleep in a rope trick" defense was so the Big Bad wouldn't get an accurate count of the party during naptime, remember?


Sure they do.

No, they really don't - not when other PrCs are available.


In that case you might as well not take that level, the whole idea of taking the first level slayer is to get access to the rest of the levels, the level psywar dont give you access to something, you would have been better served staying in your base class in that case.

That's not how opportunity cost works.
Yes, a Psywar dip for MWP and HAP prevents me from getting the rest of Slayer's benefits - but when I can duplicate the two major benefits with a power, while (a) keeping my class features and (b) having room for a better PrC, I'm not going notice nor care.


I dont think they are that good again, and as mentioned before its a 3rd party book.

Hyperconscious may be 3rd party, but Bruce Cordell still wrote it (check the front of your XPH.)


No?

How is "I'll kill any minions that see me" not what we were talking about? And that's even assuming you'll know they're working for the enemy on sight. I can't imagine a spy would have the BBEG's flag outside his shop.


Its not like you would not try to hunt him down anyway, at least this way you might get hold of him outside of his lair.

If you can get the drop on him on the road, you don't need Nondetection - he won't be in his scrying room, after all.


I dont think they are that good again, besides Anarchic initiate, who are on the level of brokenly good.

Ardent is Tier 2-3, and Erudite is at least Tier 2. Synad is a great race and Synchronicity... yeah. If you don't think that's good material, your standards of good and mine differ too wildly for meaningful discussion.


But again, this is web material, you really cant expect to be allowed to use this by any gm.

That makes zero sense. Why would WotC have put them online if they didn't intend DMs to use them??


I dont count Track as a wasted feat, as long as you have the skillpoints to learn survival as well.

Eh, I'd rather leave that to the ranger/barbarian.


Yes, and at the same time you can expect your opponents to do the same, or be higher level.
Personaly i though 50% chance to keep the power was pretty generous.

Of course PMB has its drawbacks - but you get it sooner, you can get it regardless of PrC and without losing ML, and it is not contingent on your focus.

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 03:01 PM
Well I think this thread has accomplished it goal for the most part. Cerebral blind/immunity is regarded as situational and hardly fool proof and for the most part obtainable with PMB.

Full BAB is good for feats. Metamorphosis still provides for much gishing activity.

HP can be almost a non issue with PVS. Buffing can be sped up with linked power and or temp accel.

General agreement that Slayer isn't all that.

I think my work is done. It was my mistake for introducing gaming philosophy into the debate. The crunch alone was sufficient.


The thing is, though, I think you are wrong.

EWL wise, the class is worth ~200k. The lost manifester level is easily recovered. The immunity to MA effects is crucial in higher-level play. The OGL version of slayer is lovely, offering a number of nicer things. Immunity to divination, while situational, isn't _bad_ and is often highly sought-after.

9/10 ML is better than most other PrCs.
Full BaB is wonderful, for a variety of reasons.
Good HP is a wash.
Decent skills, not a wash.

Sure, I prefer sanctified mind, but there's virtually no reason not to go Ardent 10/Slayer 10. I HAVE recommended these things, and they are good. Ardent has no meaningful features after 10.

Kylarra
2010-05-07, 03:04 PM
Agreeing with my premise is enough for me. I presented the original topic, I listed my points. I basically said the same thing as Optimystik yet I am "strawmanned" while Optimystik is lauded. I think I have a right to feel biased against.I argued against one of your points which was presented with a flawed premise and continued to be presented with the flawed premise. I focus on it because it's a glaring hole in your argument regardless of the soundness of the premise it's supporting, and one that you continue to support without providing reasonable support.


I'm going to use an "I" statement here and say:
"I think that sounds like you not linking my tone" No really, relax, I don't live in a piece of fiction so citing tvtropes won't help the situation. I'm perfectly relaxed. :smallwink: Tropes are by no means limited to a fictional setting, I was simply citing it for ease of explanation. Backhanded apologies aren't really apologies or polite in my book, they may be in yours, but not mine.


The issue is that this feature can be replicated without going into Slayer itself. Oh and the fact that it can be easily work around it making it even less useful. That's not the point that I've been arguing so...

Is directly addressing the issue also strawmanning???? in this case, you're still strawmanning, yes. You're adjusting the scope of the argument to address a point which I am not making in order to try to refute my point without addressing it.

To wit, my point has never been about cerebral blind's power or lack thereof, but your premise that DM metaknowledge automatically renders it useless.


From my perspective: I state why cerebral blind isn't that good because it can be bypassed with other mundane methods, not active all the time, restricts use of focus, can be done more or less by one power, done sooner with no opportunity cost.

You say: none of that matters, "it has nothing to do with the power itself"
It's not that I am strawmanning it is you are just refusing to see the evidence presented. All counter debates are "worthless".From my perspective, one of your major premises is that it is useless because the DM has full metagame knowledge of your character and can work around it, a perspective clearly backed up by numerous posts you've made.


Many people go gaga over Permenant mind blank, this however is a trap. An NPC with mind blank is very good because the PCs would have no way of detecting him/her. A PC with this class feature is pointless because your DM will always have metagame knowledge of everything you do.

Saying a DM can't use metagame knowledge against you is silly. Your DM simlly knows everything your PC is doing. That is a fact. If he can't justify using divinitation on you then he will have a spy. Or he could just obseve the effects of your actions, your teammates etc.



You can talk all you want about how cerebral blind and cerebral immunity makes you invisible, but when push comes to shove a DM knowing everything about your PCs isn't metagaming; it's playing the @#$%$^'ing game. The DM just knows, period. He can and should adjust encounter difficulties on the fly; is that metagaming? When your DM does something that challenges you are you going to rule lawyer with him about how he can't that or will you kick some ass?

Maybe I have a different idea of how a DM should run his games, but as a DM myself; I will use all the info i have at hand (that includes your character sheets) to provide you with an awesome encounter. Does that make me an unforgivable "metagamer"? I don't think so.


His minions and the Boss can't just be challenging? That's just the thing, a DM will still do his thing, cerebral blind/immunity be damned. If the next encounter is supposed to be an Inspired psion/crystal master 3 CR higher than the rest of the PC, that is also good at fighting other psionic users. Should the DM change it to avoid the Slayer saying "that's metagaming!"? I should hope not.A flawed argument is flawed no matter how strong the premise is. Simple logic.

I have no issues with many of the points made for and against Slayer, and haven't really had my opinion of the class swayed much either way.



I know you guys think Slayer is the end all be all but it isn't. This post isn't from the one I'm directly quoting, but it does epitomize some of the issues I think we (I?) are having with you here, and why Optimystik is drawing less flak. You're approaching this from the perspective that everyone else thinks Slayer is God's gift to psygishery and you need to come down from your ivory tower to prove the masses wrong about everything involved with it. The problem is, that point of view that you're refuting isn't held by many. You're a rebel without a cause in that respect. If that's what you want to promote, you're probably not going to encounter too much opposition based on that premise alone. The arguments that Optimystik is making revolve around acknowledging that Slayer is a decent PrC from the outset and outlining the opportunity costs that it trades out compared to what it gains. This is different from the way you are making your argument.

In this respect, yes, I am declaring that the "tone" of your argument is different. Word choice is an important part of forming an argument and there are worlds of difference between arguing that Slayer is a bad PrC and arguing that it's a decent PrC which is sometimes overshadowed by other choices. Just as few will argue that Slayer is the end-all, be-all PrC for psygishery, but many will argue that it is at least a decent choice to take.

I am absolutely fine with saying it's not necessarily an instant grab for any psygish character, and frankly that's good PrC design in my eyes.

erikun
2010-05-07, 03:09 PM
Sure, I prefer sanctified mind, but there's virtually no reason not to go Ardent 10/Slayer 10. I HAVE recommended these things, and they are good. Ardent has no meaningful features after 10.
Well, you are delaying your 5th and 6th mantles until lv.20 and lv.25 that way. Given that mantles determine what powers you can choose, that's a significant choice.

It's still not a bad choice, it just depends on what you want. If you're looking at a warrior-philosopher, something like a (working) psionic Paladin with nice immunities and a limited selection of powers, the Ardent/Slayer fits nicely. If you're more interested in a psionic Cleric, with a wider selection of powers and decent melee capability, then pure Ardent works better.

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 03:11 PM
Well, you are delaying your 5th and 6th mantles until lv.20 and lv.25 that way. Given that mantles determine what powers you can choose, that's a significant choice.

It's still not a bad choice, it just depends on what you want. If you're looking at a warrior-philosopher, something like a (working) psionic Paladin with nice immunities and a limited selection of powers, the Ardent/Slayer fits nicely. If you're more interested in a psionic Cleric, with a wider selection of powers and decent melee capability, then pure Ardent works better.

I have 40 powers to choose from, if I am using the power substitution ACF, which Ardent is quite hard to play without. I do think that pure ardent isn't bad, but it's not really what I'd reach for. I think, basically, that slayer in its OGL form is just a very good class. It's better than most arcane full-bab classes, certainly.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 03:16 PM
Sure, I prefer sanctified mind, but there's virtually no reason not to go Ardent 10/Slayer 10.

I think Sanctified Mind is a very good reason not to go Ardent 10/Slayer 10 .:smallwink:

Meditant is also nice (3/4 BAB, Autohypnosis, 9/10 Manifesting, nice class features - all day etherealness!) though you might need flaws to get in unless you're a Psywar - heavy feat investment.

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 03:21 PM
I think Sanctified Mind is a very good reason not to go Ardent 10/Slayer 10 .:smallwink:

Meditant is also nice (3/4 BAB, Autohypnosis, 9/10 Manifesting, nice class features - all day etherealness!) though you might need flaws to get in unless you're a Psywar - heavy feat investment.

Meditant's class features are, in my experience, somewhat less practical than those of Slayer until level 7. Sanctified mind, while good, is not strictly better than Slayer, particularly given its hideously weak capstone, 5/6 progression, and requirement of proficiency in all martial weapons. Which ardent lacks.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 03:47 PM
Meditant's class features are, in my experience, somewhat less practical than those of Slayer until level 7.

The Slayer's big one kicks in at level 9, so either way you're sitting on your thumbs, really.


Sanctified mind, while good, is not strictly better than Slayer, particularly given its hideously weak capstone, 5/6 progression, and requirement of proficiency in all martial weapons. Which ardent lacks.

Realistically, 5/6 progression is no worse than 9/10. You still lose a level getting in.

I agree that the MWP requirement is rough on an Ardent, though they are ML-loss sponges anyway. I prefer Partition Mind to Slayer's Mind Blank simply because it comes into play much earlier, and you can choose to use it or not even if you fail your save. And of course, it does not block helpful effects.

NEO|Phyte
2010-05-07, 03:49 PM
And of course, it does not block helpful effects.

Neither does the Slayer's mind blank. Part of the tradeoff for losing it if you fall asleep :P

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 03:52 PM
The Slayer's big one kicks in at level 9, so either way you're sitting on your thumbs, really.



Realistically, 5/6 progression is no worse than 9/10. You still lose a level getting in.

I agree that the MWP requirement is rough on an Ardent, though they are ML-loss sponges anyway. I prefer Partition Mind to Slayer's Mind Blank simply because it comes into play much earlier, and you can choose to use it or not even if you fail your save. And of course, it does not block helpful effects.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE sanctified mind, and I am quite a fan of meditant. But I think that neither of them serve in any sense to obsolete Slayer like Samb so vehemently put forward.

Samb
2010-05-07, 04:08 PM
I argued against one of your points which was presented with a flawed premise and continued to be presented with the flawed premise. I focus on it because it's a glaring hole in your argument regardless of the soundness of the premise it's supporting, and one that you continue to support without providing reasonable support.
I admited I should not have gone there. That just brought out a debate that really have too much to do with Slayers.


I'm perfectly relaxed. :smallwink: Tropes are by no means limited to a fictional setting, I was simply citing it for ease of explanation. Backhanded apologies aren't really apologies or polite in my book, they may be in yours, but not mine.
Or it could be acknowledging I maybe rough around the edges and turn people off to my perpective?


That's not the point that I've been arguing so...
in this case, you're still strawmanning, yes. You're adjusting the scope of the argument to address a point which I am not making in order to try to refute my point without addressing it. maybe we are both mistaking eachother's scope. I had already concede that the metagaming was unneeded and assumed you knew that. I assumed you had beef with my take on cerebral blind because you brought it up.

I have no issues with many of the points made for and against Slayer, and haven't really had my opinion of the class swayed much either way.



This post isn't from the one I'm directly quoting, but it does epitomize some of the issues I think we (I?) are having with you here, and why Optimystik is drawing less flak. You're approaching this from the perspective that everyone else thinks Slayer is God's gift to psygishery and you need to come down from your ivory tower to prove the masses wrong about everything involved with it. The problem is, that point of view that you're refuting isn't held by many. You're a rebel without a cause in that respect. If that's what you want to promote, you're probably not going to encounter too much opposition based on that premise alone. The arguments that Optimystik is making revolve around acknowledging that Slayer is a decent PrC from the outset and outlining the opportunity costs that it trades out compared to what it gains. This is different from the way you are making your argument.
Ahh but I don't think Slayer is that decent for anything other than getting feats. I do agree with Opti's stance but to a different degree. Every psigish build has slayer levels in it, and I wanted to share why I felt the cost isn't worth it. I am entitled to my opinion afterall, even if my tone is blunt.


In this respect, yes, I am declaring that the "tone" of your argument is different. Word choice is an important part of forming an argument and there are worlds of difference between arguing that Slayer is a bad PrC and arguing that it's a decent PrC which is sometimes overshadowed by other choices. Just as few will argue that Slayer is the end-all, be-all PrC for psygishery, but many will argue that it is at least a decent choice to take.

Yeah I know I'm not all that refined but I still stand by my opinion that slayer is niche.
Well Slayer is quite popular to those that know about other PrCs. That is where I got the (maybe false) impression that people thought it was "uber" PrC. This thread was made let other less informed know that Slayer isn't even the fist choice. For a King of Smack build? Gotta go Slayer AND sanctified mind. Want tO get R. Gambit? Will need the BAB as well. Otherwise? You could do better. Simple as that.


I am absolutely fine with saying it's not necessarily an instant grab for any psygish character, and frankly that's good PrC design in my eyes.
I've played one and had fun with it but if you the "optimal" choice (ie key to ultimate power)? You could do better. Hence "not that great".

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 04:09 PM
Neither does the Slayer's mind blank. Part of the tradeoff for losing it if you fall asleep :P

Yes, but as an Ardent, you have to wait until level 15 for one of them, and level 8 for the other. Not a whole lot of contest there.

Meanwhile the Ardent can grab PMB at either 13 (with Mantle Sub) or 15 (with EK) even if he takes a PrC with dead levels.

sonofzeal
2010-05-07, 04:10 PM
I find it reasonable. Most Psi classes are very short on class features, so you lose little getting in except the one ML, and full BAB is nice for some characters. Going Psion 20 vs Psion 10 / Slayer 10 is a fair call, and depends on your campaign and play style. I do think some people overrate the class, but I think it's quite respectable.

druid91
2010-05-07, 04:39 PM
My point is that a DM will and should do what he will do regardless of if the PCs are detectable. A DM will not change or alter his encounters on the fear of metagaming in the face non-detection.

Ok you just beat yourself. The DM will not change or alter encounters, therefore when the mooks and the sergeant spy attacks the PC's the non-detected, hiding, sniper slayer kills the sergeant of the big bad's in one shot, (Technically possible with a good enough roll, actually did that once it was awesome.) therefore nondetection is useful. So nondetection is not useless because of metagaming.:smallbiggrin:

Its a good tactic, keeping the one who can hide easily slightly away from the main party. That way when the main group gets in over their head they can get off a good shot to damage who ever's leading the attackers.

Amphetryon
2010-05-07, 04:39 PM
I've played one and had fun with it but if you the "optimal" choice (ie key to ultimate power)? You could do better. Hence "not that great".Isn't the answer Pun-Pun, then? And only Pun-Pun? Anything else is less than ultimate power, if that's the metric being used for greatness.

druid91
2010-05-07, 05:26 PM
Also metamorphosis doesn't work that way


Metamorphosis
Psychometabolism
Level: Egoist 4
Display: Material and olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D) for a creature; 1 hour/level (D) for an object
Power Points: 7

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead. The assumed form can have as many Hit Dice as your manifester level, to a maximum of 15.

You can’t assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you assume an incorporeal, ectoplasmic, or gaseous form. You cannot take the form of any creature that has a template. Your type and subtype (if applicable) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal you further). If you are slain while under the effect of this power, you revert to your original form, though you remain dead. You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retain your own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also gain all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as constrict, improved grab, and poison) but do not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form (such as blindsense, fast healing, regeneration, and scent) or any supernatural, psionic, or spell-like abilities.

You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and special qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have, if any. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and special qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any benefits of the racial traits of your normal form. If you have a template, special abilities it provides are likewise not retained. If the assumed form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any manifesting ability you had in your original form.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws or a bite), racial bonuses on skill checks, racial bonus feats, and any anatomical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that type. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s species. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this power to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item in question) or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your normal form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms (mouth, hands, or the like) at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its normal form.

You can also use this power to assume the form of an inanimate object. You gain the object’s hardness and retain your own hit points. You can take the shape of almost any simple object you can think of. If you attempt to take the form of a complex object, you must make an appropriate skill check.. If you fail the check, your manifestation of the power does not succeed. Likewise, you cannot take the form of a complex mechanical mechanism unless you have some sort of skill associated with the object. You cannot use this power to assume the form of a psionic item or a magic item, or any object with a hardness of 15 or higher. You also cannot take the form of a psionically animated mechanism or any object formed of ectoplasm.

As an inanimate object, you lose all mobility. You retain your normal senses and your ability to speak. You can manifest a power if you make a Concentration check (DC 20 + power level); however, doing so ends the duration of this power. If you take damage while in the form of an object, your actual body also takes damage (but the object’s hardness, if any, protects you).
It says nothing about BAB. Which is important, or else I would have crushed my friend in PvP due to me having followers with bows and him not having followers with bows.

strider24seven
2010-05-07, 06:13 PM
My 2 cents regarding the Illithid Slayer:

At first blush, it seems exactly like the Eldritch Knight, but it has certain advantages over its arcane counterpart. It has some niche abilities which work well against Illithid-type enemies, a favored enemy (which lets you qualify for some niche feats), and, of course, permanent mind-blank as long as you are psionically focused.

In my opinion, the Slayer from the SRD is much, much stronger because you can pick your favored enemy like a ranger can (except that the enemy has to be psionic). You could arguably take Favored Enemy (Psionicists), much like the ranger variant can take Favored Enemy (Arcanists).

Permanent Mind Blank, that cannot be dispelled, and foils everything but Metafaculty, is not to be underestimated. The aforementioned psionic sniper is a good example. Also, with a Psicrytal and the Psicrystal Containment and Psionic Meditation feats coupled with the Hustle power, you will always be focused, and thus will always be impervious to mind-affecting powers and detection. It is also arguably the only thing that makes a character invisible to enemies with Mindsight from Lords of Madness. Because the Slayer has Hide and Move Silently as class skills, and can take the Darkstalker feat, he can actually be totally invisible, unlike a Psion, Ardent, Wizard, Druid, Rogue, or any other character. The only possible way to see a focused Necropolitan Slayer with Darkstalker is to beat his Hide/MS checks, which is not easy by any standards.

Slayer also grants full BAB, which can allow a fourth iterative attack while polymorphed. An attack at a -15 penalty might not seem like much, until you use Metamorphosis to change into a Firbolg and you acquire stupid high to hit and damage boni.

If I had to choose between going Psion 20 and Psion 10/Slayer 10, I would usually pick the latter, especially in a high level campaign. However, Slayer really shines with other psionic PrCs. A Psion 6/Elocater 4/Slayer 10 is much more powerful than a straight Psion, especially with the Practiced Manifester feat. Simply Google "Chrono Legionnaire dnd" to see how a Slayer can take down one of the most powerful monsters in DnD. If arcane/psionic transparency applies to PrC's then the Slayer becomes ridiculously powerful. Psionic Swiftblade and Psionic Abjurant Champion add a lot to Slayer builds.

Most people who don't like the Slayer class argue that it sucks too many feats out of psionic builds. This is especially true for Psychic Warriors. However, most Slayer builds are gishes that use either Psion or Ardent, which really don't need their bonus feats. The only Psychic Warrior builds that use 9-10 levels of Slayer are archer builds and King of Smack builds. Both of which rely on only the full BAB of Slayer and are more melee characters than gishes or manifesters.

In conclusion, the Slayer is quite a good PrC, and is certainly better than its arcane counterpart. It forms the basis of most gish builds, and is powerful in its own right.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-07, 07:03 PM
It says nothing about BAB. Which is important, or else I would have crushed my friend in PvP due to me having followers with bows and him not having followers with bows.

Actually, the key is that the creature you metamorphose into will usually have a much higher Strength (and correspondingly greater chance to hit). Plus, high Base Attack is meaningless for Natural Attacks, since only Weapon Attacks (& Monk Unarmed strikes) are itterative.

Saph
2010-05-07, 07:10 PM
Actually, the key is that the creature you metamorphose into will usually have a much higher Strength (and correspondingly greater chance to hit). Plus, high Base Attack is meaningless for Natural Attacks, since only Weapon Attacks (& Monk Unarmed strikes) are itterative.

BAB still affects your to-hit chance, natural weapons or no.

Plus the Polymorph line (of which Metamorphosis is a knock-off) tops the list of most-commonly-banned spells in D&D, sharing the spot with the Celerity line, Shivering Touch, and one or two others. It will frequently be unavailable in actual games (as opposed to theoretical optimisation).

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-07, 07:18 PM
He just asked why BAB wasn't as important to someone with Shapechange/Metamorphosis... so I explained it.

Saph
2010-05-07, 07:31 PM
He just asked why BAB wasn't as important to someone with Shapechange/Metamorphosis... so I explained it.

Oh, it's definitely less important. Still handy, though.

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 07:42 PM
Metamorphosis is normally banned even in games where polymorph is not, due to a couple of feats that deal with it. I wouldn't bank on it existing in your verse.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-07, 08:24 PM
I took a look at the sanctified mind, and it's...okay. Not that great, really. You trade Track for Iron Will, and spend some skill points you'd likely take anyway (except for divine casters, which usually don't have Knowledge: Psionics except for archivists and those with the Knowledge domain), and levels 2-5 are more or less a wash (they're bleh, frankly).

Partition mind is decent, though it too can't be used when you're unconscious, nor can it be used when you're flat-footed, and it's based on your Charisma, which most psionic characters (except for wilders) won't have much of anyway. It also doesn't actually grant any kind of immunity to mind-affecting (and despite the example, doesn't work on illithid mind blasts whatsoever, since they're not mind-affecting anyway).

The rest of the abilities might be good for a soulknife or pyrokineticist-type build, and it does progress manifesting (so it's not terrible by any stretch). If the slayer got cerebral immunity earlier, I'd say it'd be better in just about every way but prereqs.

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 08:25 PM
Sanctified mind unfortunately has the all martial thing, which means you either need to be an outsider, dip, or play a psychic warrior.

Eldariel
2010-05-07, 08:42 PM
Sanctified mind unfortunately has the all martial thing, which means you either need to be an outsider, dip, or play a psychic warrior.

There are two feats for that too, Militia and Otherworldly. Both are Regionals, of course, but get the thing done.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-07, 08:50 PM
The prereqs for both are about tied for both classes, really. Kill an illithid or get all martial weapon proficiencies. If you're using slayer from the SRD, that's a bit easier to get into, but it requires more skill investment.

Doc Roc
2010-05-07, 08:58 PM
The prereqs for both are about tied for both classes, really. Kill an illithid or get all martial weapon proficiencies. If you're using slayer from the SRD, that's a bit easier to get into, but it requires more skill investment.

But has a superior set of class features over the non-generic one.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-07, 09:03 PM
But has a superior set of class features over the non-generic one.The campaigns I've played in avoid psionic creatures regardless, so that's a complete wash. YMMV.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 11:51 PM
The key for Sanctified Mind is that Partition Mind is available at level 1, whereas Slayer's similar ability is all the way up at level 9. So you can dip SM and move on to another PrC if the head games protection is so important for your campaign that you feel PMB won't be enough on its own.

Also, note that it converts all mind-affecting effects to being slowed - yet only the ones with a duration get delayed with a chance to come back later and bite you. You are effectively immune to things like Crisis of Life and Phantasmal Killer.

I'm not saying it's better than Slayer, just that the opportunity cost is more manageable (unless you want to become some sort of mental ranger, anyway.)


The only possible way to see a focused Necropolitan Slayer with Darkstalker is to beat his Hide/MS checks, which is not easy by any standards.

You forgot Touchsight :smalltongue:

strider24seven
2010-05-08, 11:57 AM
You forgot Touchsight :smalltongue:

Damn! I knew I forgot something:smallfurious:! But really, how many enemies do you know that have Touchsight? And you can just stay out of range of their Touchsight and spray them with arrows/bolts/Energy Missiles. Or just manifest Microcosm on them.

IMO, Sanctified Mind actually works better WITH Slayer than as an alternative to it. It works great for maintaining a decent BAB and manifester level. It beats Elocater and is on par with Anarchic Initiate, and with Practiced Manifester it even beats pure Psion/Ardent.

Thrawn183
2010-05-08, 03:30 PM
Just chiming in as a DM that blanket bans metamorphosis/polymorph. I let metamorphosis into my game once, I'm never letting it near again.