Power Monk

[TheYoungOne]

All right forum, I have a challange.

I want you to give me your most powerful monk build. It has to be at least 3/4 monk, but some small amount of multiclassing is allowed.
I'll allow all races, but no LA larger then +1

Now do your best :smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

Monk 60 / Wizard 20 :smalltongue:

(edit) seriously though, it would help if you'd specify level limits and point buy, as well as what system this is (presumably 3.5 but could be PF too).

[Prodan]

There's a guide for this sort of thing somewhere. I'll link you to it when I find the thing.

[TheYoungOne]

Monk 60 / Wizard 20 :smalltongue:

Point taken. Let's try to keep it below epic.

[Glimbur]

Warforged Monk 15/Soul Eater 5. Sure, Monk isn't that awesome, but when you're doing a negative level on each touch it gets better. It's a one trick pony though.

[balistafreak]

Well, depending on your definition of 3/4 monk...

Monastic Training/Tashalatora lets you gain Monk AC (wisdom + tiny bonus through levels), unarmed strike damage, and flurry progression as if you had your levels in monk if you're a Psionic class. So an Ardent5 gets Wisdom + 1 to AC, 1d8 unarmed strike damage, and flurry of blows with reduced penalty, just like a Monk5 would - except with the one major gain that you are not a Monk,, and can take real class features in addition to those benefits.

Congratulations, you now punch as hard as a Monk while still keeping full Manifester progression. And there's nothing you can say to me that will convince me that a Monk's abilities beyond those three are better than Manifester levels. The only thing that is really unreplaceable or outclassed is Evasion; that's one thing that you really can't get into a Psionics build without a lot of work. :smallwink:

I don't have much experience with actual Monk levels beyond dips, though. It just seems so... underwhelming.

And if the subject of UMD comes up I'll point that full Manifester progression beats UMD any day. We all know who I'm talking about here. :smallsigh:

[ninjaneer003]

race: Changleing
Class: Monk 16 / Warshaper 2 / rogue 1 (with Ascetic Rogue) / paladin 1 (with ascetic Knight)

so you can do a powerful unarmed sneak attack smite that is magic, lawful, and adamantine when it come to damage reduction

[Prodan]

Well, depending on your definition of 3/4 monk...The only thing that is really unreplaceable or outclassed is Evasion; that's one thing that you really can't get into a Psionics build without a lot of work. :smallwink:

Ring of Evasion.

[Human Paragon 3]

I have a workable build, but not one I would call the strongest.

The key to building a "powerful" monk that makes good use of the monk's class features is probably the Decisive Strike ACF from player's handbook 2.

It doubles all damage for a round at the cost of a -2 penalty to hit (at first it limits you to a full round action for 1 attack as well, but that changes as the monk levels up).

Multipliers are inherently strong. Now you just need to up your base damage. Here are some ways:

Factotum: +Int to damage
Power Attack (use a staff two handed- always.)
Craven (character level to damage on sneak attacks)
Collision weapon enhancment (a flat +5)
Knowledge Devotion (from +1 to +5 based on knowledge checks)
Bard Song
Greater Magic Weapon or Fang


Getting more attacks in a round is another tack, since decisive strike doubles all damage. Here are some ways to do that:

Snap Kick
Attacks of Opportunity
Haste
Speed Weapon Enhancement

And being able to do this and remain mobile is always nice, too. Try:

Be mounted.
Hustle psionic power
Psionic Lion's charge
Travel Devotion feat

Some of these open up the possiblity for further multipliers thanks to:

Spirited Charge
Shock Trooper
Leap Attack


Another good idea is to go into the Tattoed Monk prestige class and grab chameleon tattoo to alter self into powerful forms all day long (hour/level!).

[TheYoungOne]

Well, depending on your definition of 3/4 monk...
__________________________________________________ _______________
I don't have much experience with actual Monk levels beyond dips, though. It just seems so... underwhelming.


By that, I mean that for every 4 lvls you take, 3 of them have to be monk.

And I know that the monk is a bit underwhelming, but that's why this is a challenge :smallwink:

[Prodan]

Fist of the Forest 3, Shou Disciple 5, and Shiba Protector 1 cut down on the levels of Monk that are needed for this project.

[balistafreak]

Ring of Evasion.

I meant besides that. It's an awesome item, which is why a character can't grab it until, you know, he's wealthy enough to for a reason. :smalltongue:

On the subject of Tattooed Monk, I seem to remember something about a Warforged Tattooed Monk who uses the fact that he has the Construct subtype to turn himself into a stagecoach or something. An animated stagecoach. (Alternatively, I've always wondered if you could turn yourself into a flying machine of some sort, or perhaps a submarine.)

Transformers; they're robots in disguise! :smallbiggrin:

Mix in levels of Kensai and you can shoot your fists (by enchanting your unarmed strike with the Throwing Property) while you do so. This is generally only done with Warforged as well due to the confusion that throwing a meat-and-blood fist would entail.

It's not powerful, but it's awesome.

[TheYoungOne]

I have a workable build, but not one I would call the strongest.

The key to building a "powerful" monk that makes good use of the monk's class features is probably the Decisive Strike ACF from player's handbook 2.

...


I like it :smallwink:
Now all that's needed is for someone to optimize it to perfection :smallbiggrin:

[Prodan]

You just need to tack on Karmic Strike and Robiliar's Gambit.

[TheYoungOne]

cut down on the levels of Monk that are needed for this project.

I might be willing to cut it down to 3/5, but it's supposed to be challenging...:smallsmile:

[Prodan]

I might be willing to cut it down to 3/5, but it's supposed to be challenging...:smallsmile:

I wasn't aware Monk prestige classes counted against the limit.

[TheYoungOne]

I wasn't aware Monk prestige classes counted against the limit.
Which limit, the monk or the non monk one?
Monk prestige classes count as monk lvls.

[Prodan]

Which limit, the monk or the non monk one?
Monk prestige classes count as monk lvls.

Those were all monk prestige class.

[TheYoungOne]

Those were all monk prestige class.

I realize that, but you were asking me to cut down on the lvls of monk needed, right? :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

I like it :smallwink:
Now all that's needed is for someone to optimize it to perfection :smallbiggrin:Needs some Chaos monk. With 15 levels of monk, Flailing Strike (replacement of Flurry) grants you extra d6 attacks at your highest attack bonus. Some of the other features are marginally better than standard monk too. Dragon Mag 335 (and Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf) pg. 58).

[Edit]: Wild Monk: cut off bonus feats (aww) and Slow Fall (haha), gain Wild Shape for animals and elementals. This one has potential.

[Prodan]

I realize that, but you were asking me to cut down on the lvls of monk needed, right? :smalltongue:

No, I was pointing out ways to cut down on the levels of pure Monk needed.

[TheYoungOne]

No, I was pointing out ways to cut down on the levels of pure Monk needed.

Ok :smallbiggrin:
Keep up the work guys. It's looking good.

[Tinydwarfman]

Monk 6/Unarmed SS 2. Unfortunately future leveling only adds more SS.

[Pluto]

Cloistered Cleric 1/Monk 15/Swordsage 4

Feats:
Travel Devotion (Domain)
Knowledge Devotion (Domain)

Other domain:
Let's go with Magic.

Important items:
Pearls of Power III - Greater Mighty Wallop, Greater Magic Weapon/Fang from the party casters
Necklace of Natural Weapons - Enhance your body with whatever you like
Wand of Wraithstrike - if you get to full attack somebody, you damned well better tear them apart
+whatever

What Cleric 1 does:
Skirt the Monk's biggest problem - conjoining Movement and full attacks - with Travel Devotion. Use Knowledge Devotion to make the most of your large number of attacks/round. Use Cleric and Wizard wands without investing skills or risking failure.

What Swordsage 4 does:
Gain 1 5th level stance, 3 6th level maneuvers. Season with Counters and Boosts to taste.

edit:

Monk prestige classes count as monk lvls.
Ohp. Missed that. Anything without Psionic/Enlightened/Sacred Fist or Shadowsun Ninja is probably out then.

[Il_Vec]

Monk 20 // Druid 10 Fist of the Forest 3/ Shou Disciple 5/ Shiba Protector 2

Total Levels : 40
Monk Levels: 30

[Ruinix]

monk 15 / druid 5

Monk's Belt (DMG) with a Wilding Clasp (MIC), get your Wisdom bonus to AC and you can even use unarmed strikes regardless of form.

now u can be kung fu panda!

[Ormagoden]

By challenge do you mean build me a monk?

See other monk threads. There are dozens.

The best monk class can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35152&page=2#33). Get to building!


Runix LOL! Check this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140757)out ;)

[Gametime]

Warforged Monk 15/Soul Eater 5. Sure, Monk isn't that awesome, but when you're doing a negative level on each touch it gets better. It's a one trick pony though.

Soul Eater's ability is (Su), which (for lack of an action specified) takes a standard action to use. It isn't on every attack.

[Optimystik]

I consider classes with "Monk" in the name to be monks.

Therefore Neraphim (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2) Monk 5/Tattooed Monk 10/Shou Disciple 5

- +16 BAB
- +5 dodge bonus to AC, +8 vs. one opponent
- +2 Natural AC (racial)
- Wis to AC
- AC and speed bonuses as Monk 15
- Unarmed damage dice as Monk 20
- Alter Self into Outsiders, 50 hours/day (Chameleon Tattoo, racial)
- Take 20 on UMD checks (Take 10, +10 more from Tortoise tattoo)
- Immune to disease, poison, and aging (Crane tattoo)
- Martial Weapon Proficiency, can flurry with martial weapons
- Immune to Fear (Falcon tattoo)
- Darkvision 60 ft. (racial)

[Tinydwarfman]

The best monk class can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35152&page=2#33). Get to building!


I like Osari's monk a lot, but it needs a little but more. A larger AC boost, and less MADness would be nice. I see it as a tier 4. A boost, but not quite a large enough one IMO. it does well improving the monk while still using all it's class features though.

[Indon]

Mix in levels of Kensai and you can shoot your fists (by enchanting your unarmed strike with the Throwing Property) while you do so. This is generally only done with Warforged as well due to the confusion that throwing a meat-and-blood fist would entail.

A monk's unarmed attack can encompass any part of their body - the monk can easily throw _themselves_, in whole - and then flurry self-throw sunder attempts to get around!

At this point you're moving exceedingly quickly by hurling yourself into objects, often destroying them. Congrats, you're a Dragonball character.

[Adumbration]

I think Yak Folk (RHD 5 + 2 LA)/ Monk 2/ Fist of the Forest 3/ Initiate of the Draconic mysteries 8 is a fairly solid and very flavorful build. The RHD on this are actually useful: UMD as class skill, good stat boni, +7 NA, Large size and 3 quite nice features as well. Fist of the forest and the Initiate accentuate on the strengths: high unarmed damage and AC.

[Curmudgeon]

The key to building a "powerful" monk that makes good use of the monk's class features is probably the Decisive Strike ACF from player's handbook 2.

It doubles all damage for a round at the cost of a -2 penalty to hit (at first it limits you to a full round action for 1 attack as well, but that changes as the monk levels up).
It's a trap!

Decisive Strike allows at most 2 attacks in a round, and only if you're attacking 2 different enemies. So at level 15+ you'll do 2 attacks at full BAB with 2x damage, vs. Flurry of Blows doing 5 attacks (3 of them with full BAB) doing 1x damage. If you don't have 2 enemies conveniently close you'll only get 2x damage total.

In ideal circumstances (2 low AC enemies within 5', Snap Kick, and other enemies provoking AoOs plus Combat Reflexes) the double damage will be worthwhile. But it's on average the same or less damage than Flurry of Blows for typical encounters, where the enemies don't group together conveniently for you.

Let's go through the analysis.

The penalties for Decisive Strike and Flurry of Blows follow the exact same schedule (-2 initially, -1 at 5th level, 0 at 9th level). But Flurry of Blows gets an additional attack at level 8, whereas Decisive Strike doesn't get its 2nd attack until level 11 -- where Flurry of Blows gets its 4th attack, matching Decisive Strike damage if both class feature options hit. Thus the two options are on par at levels 1-7 and 11-14, but for levels 8-10 and 15+ the best case for both favors flurry of blows.

Adding Snap Kick changes things quite a bit, except you can't get that feat until after you attain BAB +6. Flurry of Blows deals more damage in the ideal case at level 8, and Decisive Strike does more damage at levels 11-14; other levels are evenly matched.

{table=head]Level | Decisive Strike | Flurry of Blows | DS + Snap Kick | FoB + Snap Kick
1 | 2x | 2x | (N/A) | (N/A)
2 | 2x | 2x | (N/A) | (N/A)
3 | 2x | 2x | (N/A) | (N/A)
4 | 2x | 2x | (N/A) | (N/A)
5 | 2x | 2x | (N/A) | (N/A)
6 | 2x | 2x | (N/A) | (N/A)
7 | 2x | 2x | (N/A) | (N/A)
8 | 2x | 3x | (N/A) | (N/A)
9 | 2x | 3x | 4x | 4x
10 | 2x | 3x | 4x | 4x
11 | 4x | 4x | 6x | 5x
12 | 4x | 4x | 6x | 5x
13 | 4x | 4x | 6x | 5x
14 | 4x | 4x | 6x | 5x
15 | 4x | 5x | 6x | 6x
16 | 4x | 5x | 6x | 6x
17 | 4x | 5x | 6x | 6x
18 | 4x | 5x | 6x | 6x
19 | 4x | 5x | 6x | 6x
20 | 4x | 5x | 6x | 6x [/table]

With Snap Kick the damage from Decisive Strike is about matched with Flurry of Blows, and all DS attacks are at maximum AB vs. only most (4/5 or 4/6) for FoB. Decisive Strike sounds good, right? Wrong!

Despite the many limitations of Flurry of Blows, Decisive Strike is worse because you'll only get 2/3 your ideal damage (1 hit + Snap Kick) whenever multiple enemies aren't close enough to attack without a move action. And because everyone in the D&D world knows that bunching up just invites area attacks, most enemies won't bunch up and provide the best case for Decisive Strike.

[Human Paragon 3]

You're not taking things like DR into account. Additionally, it's easier to add bonus to hit to a single attack than to many attacks, so your decisive strike will be more likely to hit than the flurry of misses. Temporary damage boosts like those provided by factotum's inspiration boost can be doubled more economically through decisive strike than by making two attacks, since you are doubling the return on a resource (inspiration) without having to spend more of it.

Also, if you opt to multiclass and not advance flurry, decisive strike is vastly superior with 2 levels of monk than flurry.

The main thing is penetrating DR though.

[Yorrin]

Half Orc Lion Spirit Totem City Brawler Barbarian 1/Overwhelming Attack School Chaos Monk 15/Fighter 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2

Feats:
Barb1- Imp. Unarmed Strike
Barb1- TWF
1- Travel Devotion
Monk2- Power Attack
Monk3-Improved Bull Rush
3- Intuitive Attack (BoED)
6- Headlong Rush (RoF)
Monk7- Improved Overrun
9- Improved TWF
12- Snap Kick
15- Greater TWF
Fighter17- Superior Unarmed Strike
Fighter18- Leap Attack
18- Shock Trooper
Swordsage19- Weapon Focus

This gives you 7+1d6 attacks on a charge with a x3 damage multiplier, Leap Attack/Shock Trooper goodness, twice your Wisdom to AC and you use it for the attack roll, and a decent number of mid-level martial maneuvers, which I'm sure can be picked to optimize the build even further.

Edit: Oh, and this is before getting a Necklace of Natural Weapons (Savage Species) and giving your fists Valorous, Collision, etc. A must-have for any unarmed monk build.

Edit2: Forgot flaws! Improved Natural Attack comes to mind...

[Cespenar]

Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Enlightened Fist 10/Tattooed Monk 3/Marshal 1 with Ascetic Mage, max out charisma, use bellflower tattoo.

[Curmudgeon]

You're not taking things like DR into account.
OK, let's do the analysis.

A Monk's unarmed strikes penetrate DR/magic (levels 4+), DR/lawful (levels 10+), and DR/adamantine (levels 16+). So we're only worried about other types of DR, and we'd have to have that feature commonly enough in enemies that Decisive Strike would provide a benefit.

Enemies with DR will commonly have poorer ACs, just in the nature of class feature tradeoffs (viz. the Barbarian), so it's reasonable to do the analysis assuming all blows will hit. At levels 16+ (where the last Ki strike benefit kicks in), Decisive Strike + Snap Kick will yield 2 double damage strikes against a single foe with DR. Flurry of Blows + Snap Kick will yield 6 normal strikes. This balances total damage when

4d - 2DR = 6d - 6DR
where d is the usual Monk damage dealt, and DR is the foe's DR. This solves for DR = ½d. So your foe's DR would have to subtract at least half the Monk's unarmed damage to make Decisive Strike a better option than Flurry of Blows.

Typically DR doesn't go above 15 pre-Epic; example: lich. At this level (16+) you can get your friendly party Sorcerer/Wizard to cast a single 3rd level spell to boost your unarmed damage to 16d8 (Greater Mighty Wallop in Races of the Dragon) all day long. That's an average of 72 damage per normal hit, which is greatly above 2x the DR you'll ever see. Flurry of Blows is a better choice than Decisive Strike even when you include DR in the mix. Also Decisive Strike will hurt you on critical hits, because 2 D&D doublings yield only a tripling; normal damage critical hits yield an actual doubling of damage.

Decisive Strike remains a poor choice.

[The Cat Goddess]

OK, let's do the analysis.

(snip)

Enemies with DR will commonly have poorer ACs, just in the nature of class feature tradeoffs (viz. the Barbarian), so it's reasonable to do the analysis assuming all blows will hit. At levels 16+ (where the last Ki strike benefit kicks in), Decisive Strike + Snap Kick will yield 2 double damage strikes against a single foe with DR. Flurry of Blows + Snap Kick will yield 6 normal strikes. This balances total damage when

4d - 2DR = 6d - 6DR
(snip)


Uh...

Interesting how you're discounting the enemy ever using Flanking or anything like that.

Interesting how you're discounting the fact that you are allowed to take a 5ft step in between individual attacks during a full attack action.

Yes... against a single, solitary monster, Flurry is better than Decisive Strike.

Much of the Class Features of War Hulk are worthless against a single, solitary medium-sized opponent, too...

But now, what if the monster(s) have a damage-shield type effect? Or you're fighting against a guy who also has Rolibar's Gambit? Seems like Flurry isn't a great option there.

[Pluto]

...Yak Folk...
:smalleek::smallconfused::smallbiggrin:
I have to ask:
Where is this printed and who is responsible for this wonderful thing?

[Curmudgeon]

Seems like Flurry isn't a great option there.
I'm not claiming that Flurry of Blows is a good class feature. I'm claiming that, on average, Decisive Strike is a worse choice. That's all.

[Greenish]

:smalleek::smallconfused::smallbiggrin:
I have to ask:
Where is this printed and who is responsible for this wonderful thing?MMII, and it looks as awesome as it sounds:
http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/images/88268_620_126.jpg

[JaronK]

Which limit, the monk or the non monk one?
Monk prestige classes count as monk lvls.

Oh heck, that's easier then. Overwhelming Attack Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Fist of the Forest 3/Unarmed Swordsage 3. That's a quite solid hitter with some nice maneuvers. Now make him a Feral Water Orc so he has pounce, set him up with the usual charge feats (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, Headlong Rush and the PrC Required stuff... you'll need flaws), and he's good to go. Note that he can flurry with martial weapons, so we'll use a Valorous Lance and make him mounted.

With this combo, he does X5 damage when mounted (Valorous, Headlong Rush, Lance, Spirited Charge) and his Power Attack damage alone is +28 (X5).

JaronK

[Origomar]

not sure how great this would be but w/e
human
as a 28 point buy go
monk 12/swashbuckler 3/5 fighter variant(rogue sneak attack instead of combat feats)

str 12
dex 16
con 14
wis 13
int 15
char 8
Feats
Kung fu genius
(not sure what feat)
TWF feats
Water splitting stone feat
Fiery fist
Ki Blast(because its kewl lol)

The BAB i think would be around
15/15/15/15/10/10/5/5/0 with TWF and flurry

Items- get items that pump into dex and int, and get monks belt



not really sure what i shouldve done with the last 5 class levels.
also, although the feat kung fu genius doesnt specifically say it works for monk feats that require wisdom, do you guys think it should replace the wisdom requirement with an int requirement?

[Vizzerdrix]

Another good idea is to go into the Tattoed Monk prestige class and grab chameleon tattoo to alter self into powerful forms all day long (hour/level!).



Good call, but you'll need 7 levels (28 hours) to get it to last all day (or 5 Lvs nets you 15 hours). That leaves the question: What other Tats are worth taking?:smallconfused:

[Optimystik]

Good call, but you'll need 7 levels (28 hours) to get it to last all day (or 5 Lvs nets you 15 hours). That leaves the question: What other Tats are worth taking?:smallconfused:

It's unlikely you'll need to Alter Self while asleep, so cut that down to 5.

My earlier post had the better ones - Tortoise gives you [class level] ranks in all untrained skills (use it for UMD), Crane gives you poison, disease and aging immunity, and Falcon gives you Fear immunity. The fifth is up to you; I tend to avoid the enhancement bonus ones because they won't stack with Bull's Strength and the like.

Monkey is good - +5 competence on each of a wide variety of skills. Ocean means you don't have too eat, sleep or drink. Phoenix gives 25 SR. Unicorn gives one free reroll (should have been 1/tattoo :smallfrown:) Wasp gives you 50 rounds of haste/day, and White Mask makes your alignment undetectable for RP games.

[Glimbur]

Soul Eater's ability is (Su), which (for lack of an action specified) takes a standard action to use. It isn't on every attack.

I'd still rather do a negative level every round than be a monk...

[Godskook]

Question: If the build caps out most of the scaling class features, does actually leveling in a monk-friendly class matter after that? Cause:

Monk 1/Wizard 4/Enlightened Fist 10/Abjurant Champion 5

with Kung Fu Genius is a pretty decent gish build. Has 14 BAB, +7/+11/+17 saves, and can easily acquire the last +9 monk levels through a relic with true believer and a monk's belt.

[The Cat Goddess]

Question: If the build caps out most of the scaling class features, does actually leveling in a monk-friendly class matter after that? Cause:

Monk 1/Wizard 4/Enlightened Fist 10/Abjurant Champion 5

with Kung Fu Genius is a pretty decent gish build. Has 14 BAB, +7/+11/+17 saves, and can easily acquire the last +9 monk levels through a relic with true believer and a monk's belt.

I really hate missing out on Evasion... but why Wizard 4 and not Wizard 3?

[Ernir]

One thing that bothers me about optimization challenges like this is that the best way to make a Monk powerful is to make it less like a Monk. :smallfrown:

For example, the most powerful Monk build I can think of that satisfies the requirements of the challenge is something like Monk 5/Ur Priest 1/Sacred Fist 10/Broken PrC of choice 4. And that's not because it has Monk levels, but because it can cast 9th level spells. =/

[Indon]

One thing that bothers me about optimization challenges like this is that the best way to make a Monk powerful is to make it less like a Monk. :smallfrown:

This is true for pretty much every non-caster class.

[Prodan]

Ok, then let's take a level 20 monk.

I guess you can wear a Monk's Belt, take the feat Superior Unarmed Stirke, take the feat Improved Natural Attack, and get a Monk's Tattoo for some boosts to unarmed damage. Throw on levels in Fist of the Forest for some more useful class features than the ability to talk to rabbits.

You can take Intuitive Attack for Wis to attack, and Touch of Golden Ice for a fort save or die.

There's also Pharaoh's Fist, and a few other stunning feats somewhere. Stunning's something to focus on, though it has the downside of only targeting Fort saves.

Knockdown has good synergy with Improved Trip, which is always a plus.

But really, that's about it as far as I can tell. I'm leaving out items for the most part because everyone can use items. I'm leaving out grapple because grappling is a waste of time at higher levels.