3.5 Magic Edits: Crunch to Match Flavour

[TheLonelyScribe]

So: the idea of this thread is to solve some problems I've always had with magic in 3.5. a) The usual arbitrary caps on spells per day complaints etc. b) The spellcasting classes aren't all that different - their magic basically works in the same way as everyone else's c) The way the magic system works doesn't really match the flavour of each individual class very well.

What am I going to do about it you ask? Well, here are my ideas for the four main spellcasting classes (sorcerer, wizard, cleric and druid), PEACH:

Sorcerer (this table replaces the 'spells per day' section of the sorcerer table)
{table=head]Level|Highest Spell Level|Number of Spell Lists

1st|
0|
2

2nd|
0|
3

3rd|
1|
3

4th|
1|
4

5th|
2|
4

6th|
2|
5

7th|
3|
5

8th|
3|
6

9th|
4|
6

10th|
4|
7

11th|
5|
7

12th|
5|
8

13th|
6|
8

14th|
6|
9

15th|
7|
9

16th|
7|
10

17th|
8|
10

18th|
8|
11

19th|
9|
11

20th|
9|
12[/table]

The Sorcerer is the ultimate chaotic mage. He trades control over his spells for power, and as his power increases he gets less control over it. That isn't to say the Sorcerer isn't versatile, in fact he has a larger number of spells at his fingertips at any one point than any other class.

A Sorcerer separates his spells into lists, usually comprised of similar effects with similar targets. Each list contains one spell of each level the Sorcerer is able to cast. A Sorcerer can choose to have the same spell in several different lists if he so desires. A Sorcerer cannot learn a spell that has a casting time of more than one standard action. Sorcerer spells are taken from the sor/wiz spell list.

To cast a spell the Sorcerer first chooses his target square and the list he wants the spell to come from. He then rolls to randomly determine a spell to cast from that list. At 1st and 2nd level he need not roll, he simply casts any 0 level spell he knows. A Sorcerer can roll to cast at any time. Rolling to cast is always a standard action.

Once the spell and target square have been determined, the spell is cast. It affects the closest valid target within 20ft of the target square. If there is no valid target within 20ft the spell fails. If the target square is further than the range limit of the spell the spell fails. Casting a spell provokes an action of opportunity, and a Sorcerer cannot stop casting a spell once he has rolled to cast.

A Sorcerer may apply metamagic feats to his spells. However, as he attempts to control his magic he weakens it. He takes a penalty equal to the caster level increase of the metamagic feat on the roll, and if the result is 0 or less the spell is not cast.

A Sorcerer must rest and 'prepare' his spells every day as mentioned in the Sorcerer entry in the PHB. Every 4 levels a Sorcerer may choose to retrain one of his spell lists.

To learn or cast spells the Sorcerer must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level. The Sorcerer's spells' DCs are based on Charisma. The Sorcerer does not gain bonus spells.

Examples of the new Sorcerer in action:
Tais, a 19th level elven Sorcerer, has a spell list that comprises of all the summon monster spells and the acid orb cantrip. She finds this a useful spell list as all the spells in it (except for acid orb) do pretty much the same thing, just at different power levels. She is standing outside the doorway to the Ogre King's cave. She wants to create a distraction so that the party rouge can sneak up behind him for a sneak attack. She chooses her summon monster spell list, and a target square about 30ft behind the Ogre, and rolls 1d10. Sadly, it comes up as a 1, and no valid target is within 20ft of the target square, so it fails. However, all is not lost! Tais can just try again the next round.

Offlmut, a 9th level Sorcerer, is in combat. He wants to cast a spell that'll hit a single enemy for lots of damage. Thank goodness, then, that he has a spell list full of spells for that very purpose, including ray of frost, magic missile, acid arrow, lightning bolt and enervation. He rolls 1d6, but gets a 6. No matter, he simply rolls again. It comes up as a 4, and a bolt of lightning crackles towards his foe.


Wizard
The Wizard gains spells by studying her spellbook. She does not have the raw power of the Sorcerer, but she can plan ahead, memorising the secrets of a few spells every morning.

All Wizards have a spellbook. This has a number of spells of each level equal to the amount that the Wizard table in the PHB says they can cast per day. Every morning a Wizard may revise one spell of every level that she has in her spell book. She keeps this spell in their head all day, and Wizards can often seem a bit far off as they perform this incredible feat of concentration.

A Wizard may cast her spells any amount of times per day that she wishes, however, before she casts a spell of a level higher than 0 she must take a few seconds to bring it to the front of her mind. This requires consecutive move actions equal to the level of the spell to be taken before casting the spell. These actions do not provoke attacks of opportunity, but if the Wizard is distracted she must make a concentration check as if she was casting the spell. Any time a Wizard would be able to take ten she is able to read from her spellbook (provided she has it with her) instead of concentrating.

Once the Wizard has finished bringing the spell to the front of her mind, she may cast the spell as normal. The spell remains at the front of her mind until she takes an action other than casting that spell.

A Wizard can apply metamagic feats to her spells. She can do this spontaneously, but it takes a huge amount of concentration, pushing her spells further into her unconscious as she focuses all her intelligence and memory on casting the enhanced spell. The amount of time it takes to bring any spell to the front of her mind increases by an amount of move actions equal to the level increase of the metamagic feat until she next prepares her spells.

A Wizard must rest for 8 hours to be able to revise her spells, and it takes an amount of time equal to the time mentioned the the PHB to do so.

To revise, learn, or cast a spell a Wizard must have an Intelligence score of 10 + the spell's level. Her spells' DCs are based on Intelligence. A Wizard's bonus spells take the form of extra spell scribed in her spellbook.

Examples of the new Wizard in action: Zebarna, a 19th level Wizard, is facing the evil Lich King Goona and his mind flayer minions. She lets her allies move ahead, keeping the mind flayers away as she prepares to cast Prismatic Spray. She spends 3 rounds standing still and focusing. On the fourth round, still focusing, she moves forwards and shouts for her allies to move out of the way. On the fifth round she unleashes the spray, and kills several of the mind flayers. Leaving her allies to battle the rest of them, she moves towards the Lich, Meteor Swarm already forming in her mind. He is atop a short spire, spying on the battle below, and it takes her 9 rounds to get up there, plenty enough to remember the details of her spell. She gets to the top and casts her spell at the lich, but, alas, the foul creature has already remembered the counter-spell, and her spell goes wasted.

Cleric coming soon.

Druid coming soon.

[Lapak]

Very interesting! I like the effort you've put into these, and the basic ideas. I do have some concerns, though, and I say that as someone who has honestly tried to work out similar ways of putting the brakes on spellcasting power.

The Sorceror might just be a little TOO random as written, but I'd have to see it in play to be sure. I do like the idea of constructing themed spell lists very much, but I'm not sure that the metamagic mechanic works as well. Perhaps instead it should apply an adjustment to the die roll equal to the metamagic adjustment? So if I'm rolling on a list with six spells and Empowering the result, I'd roll 1d6-2 when determining which spell on the list I get?

The Wizard - well, I've advocated before for making spellcasting a one-round action, but in that same argument I said that stretching the time required too much swings the wizard from 'overpowered' right past 'balanced' and into 'not fun to play.' Forcing a player to just say 'I continue casting' for several rounds running is not a fun mechanic, which hurts it in my eyes. At the least, I'd make bringing the spell to mind a move action. So a wizard can toss level 1 spells all in one round if he's willing to stand still to do it, cast 2nd level spells with a round's preparation and still move after casting, 3rd level in two full rounds, and so on. You have to keep in mind that relatively few combats run more than 6 or so rounds, so making this a standard action-per-spell-level thing means that spells over 5th level just won't be cast at all, basically ever, and even then it will be the only action a wizard player gets to take in the entire combat. If that's what you're going for, I'd just go ahead and play E6.

Unless I've misunderstood - if the one spell of each level stays at the front of your mind and can be cast at will, and can be changed with actions-per-level, that's quite different and might well make for some interesting choices in play.

[Forever Curious]

Hmm...your Sorcerer fix looks a bit familiar... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145004)

I like how the Wizard looks, but I feel it can get crazy blast happy at higher levels. Want to spam Meteor Storm? You can! Still, high level magic is broken enough as is, so I suppose this system can work.

[TheLonelyScribe]

@Lapak: I think move action instead of standard sounds good - I didn't really know what to use, but your suggestion works well. Also - your suggestion for the Sorcerer's metamagic is also useful. You have not misunderstood, but that sounds interesting. Maybe a PrC? Or even a whole new spellcasting class? The idea that I had when making this thread was to create a bunch of casters whose mechanics were original and matched their flavour, so we don't need to limit ourselves to copying what already exists. I might make a caster who did that, or you can if you want.

On the Anarch - dammit! Someone copied my idea before I had even thought of it! Ah well - my one is still at least a little different.

Also:

Cleric
The Cleric prays to their Deity every day for the power to get through. They ask for cures to their ailments, strength in the face of their enemies, and resurrection if they die. Their God, therefore, gives these benefits when the Cleric needs them most. However, a God will not give more power than a Cleric has earned through his deeds.

When praying for his spells, a Cleric chooses a condition for the activation of each spell. This must refer to a specific action (such as moving towards you or casting a spell), quality (such as diseased or dead) or number (such as an amount of hp or the result of an attack roll). The condition must be something that can be expressed in game terms: 'someone who likes me' is not a game term, but 'a humanoid with an attitude towards me of friendly or better' is. The condition may be one that is already met: when curing a disease the Cleric may set the condition as 'when my ally is diseased' and the spell will be immediately cast. All material, somatic, verbal and XP components are expended when the spell is prepared.

All Cleric spells have a range of at least 10ft. If the conditions that the Cleric has set are met, but the target is out of range, the spell is not cast.

When the conditions for a spell are met and the target is within range the spell takes effect as an immediate action. The spell takes place instantly, so if the Cleric has prepared bless in case of a fear attack, the allies gain the bonus to saves before they make them. If the spell requires a focus the Cleric must have it with him.

The Cleric prepares metamagic spells as described in the PHB.

A Cleric must rest for 8 hours to be able to pray for her spells, and it takes an amount of time equal to the time mentioned the the PHB to do so.

To pray for, learn, or cast a spell a Cleric must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level. His spells' DCs are based on Wisdom. A Cleric gains bonus spells as mentioned in the PHB.

Examples of the new Cleric in action: Gensa, a 19th level Cleric, is in battle. The enemy mage succeeds on a disintegrate spell against her and uses gust of wind to scatter the particles. Gensa, much to her surprise, finds herself instantly reformed in her square. Then she remembers, she prepared True Resurrection (prayed for the power to overcome death in any form) 5 days ago, and had not yet expended it or prepared 'over' it, as she didn't want to waste the material component.

Bootling, a 9th level Cleric, has prepared the spell Searing Light, setting the condition as an undead creature with more than 8 HD coming within 30ft of her. As the hulking zombie lumbered forward, the light ray shot from Bootling and destroyed it. Later, when one of Bootling's allies killed a demon, it rose as a zombie itself, as Bootling had prayed that her most powerful enemies (those above 9 HD) would rise again on her side.

Druid coming soon.

[Dante & Vergil]

This is cool beans!:smallcool: I especially love what you did with the wizard as it is similar to a wizard variant of mine I had plans for.

[TheLonelyScribe]

This is a bit iffy balance-wise, because it relies on you using creatures with fairly average hit points. If you are using tougher creatures than in the MM consider tweaking. Also, I had to slightly de-power their healing spells so that they couldn't just limitlessly deal damage to their allies and heal more than they dealt. There is no specific cap on damage available because my judgement was more on how many monsters the Druid is likely to face in a day than on how much hp is worth so much power.

Druid
{table=head]Level|Spell Points per 8-Hour Rest|hp per Spell Point|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|3|6|3|1

2nd|4|6|4|2

3rd|6|4|4|2|1

4th|10|4|4|3|2

5th|13|4|4|3|2|1

6th|18|4|4|3|3|2

7th|23|4|4|4|3|2|1

8th|30|3|4|4|3|3|2

9th|37|3|4|4|4|3|2|1

10th|46|3|4|4|4|3|3|2

11th|56|3|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

12th|67|3|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

13th|80|2|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

14th|93|2|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

15th|109|2|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

16th|124|2|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

17th|143|2|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|2|1

18th|160|2|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3|2

19th|181|2|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3|3

20th|198|2|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]

The Druid casts spells from nature, using life-force to power them. She can use her own life force, her ally's, or even her enemies'. Every morning she absorbs power from nature itself, and many local Druids are happy with that, but they have only half the power that a true adventuring Druid acquires.

A Druid begins each day with a number of spell points mentioned on the table. She need not deal any damage to gain these spell points, they are simply absorbed from her surroundings, without causing harm to anything. She knows a number of spells of each level as mentioned on the table, plus the appropriate summon nature's ally spell of each level. Her spells are drawn from the Druid spell list.

To gain extra spell points a Druid can deal damage. When dealing damage to any living creature, animated plant (but not normal plants) or magic item (but not simply objects that have had spells cast upon them - constructs and undead count as magical objects) a Druid absorbs life-force and magical energy. She also absorbs life force when creatures she has summoned with her summon nature's ally spells deal damage. For every (6/4/3/2, as on table) points of damage she does, a Druid absorbs one spell point.

To cast a spell, a Druid first determines which spell she wishes to cast. She expends a number of spell points equal to twice the spell's level (0-level spells cost 1 spell point). She then casts it as normal, unless it is a healing spell. A druid casting a healing spell never adds her caster level to the amount of hit points healed.

A Druid may apply metamagic feats to her spells. To do so she must expend extra spell points equal to twice the level increase of the metamagic feat. Casting a metamagic spell is always at least a full round for a Druid, and she may not quicken her spells with a metamagic feat.

A Druid must rest for 8 hours to be able to absorb her spell points, and it takes an amount of time equal to the time mentioned the the PHB to do so.

To learn, or cast a spell a Druid must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level. His spells' DCs are based on Wisdom. A Druid gains bonus spell points per morning equal to her Wisdom modifier squared.

Examples of the new Druid in action: Methras, a 1st level Druid, is in an encounter with a group of wolf skeletons. She has 3 spell points available, and knows the spells cure minor wounds, resistance, virtue, produce flame and summon nature's ally 1. She starts combat by summoning a wolf to fight its skeletal counterparts. It hits with its bite attack for 6 damage, so Methras now has 2 spell points. The next round she calls another wolf. This one hits for 3 damage. Methras now has no spell points, so she draws her quarterstaff and heads into combat. She hits a skeleton for 4 damage, and, since she had the 3 damage her wolf caused 'in reserve', she gains another spell point. She uses this to heal her ally with cure minor wounds.


Paladin coming soon.

Ranger coming soon.

Bard coming soon.

[Ashtagon]

1st level wizard with sleep memorised will win every encounter in round one. And unlike the RAW wizard, he just keeps casting and casting.

Seriously, what comes above tier 1?

[Doc Roc]

1st level wizard with sleep memorised will win every encounter in round one. And unlike the RAW wizard, he just keeps casting and casting.

Seriously, what comes above tier 1?

Tier 0. We don't like to talk about it, but there are some builds that are in a strictly different and higher tier than wizard. Anything built with this "system" is going to be one of them. God help you if a wizard gets Miracle. Hint: It's not hard.

[Pronounceable]

Tasty. I especially approve of cleric.

[TheLonelyScribe]

This one is a little complex, so read carefully and pay attention to the examples.

Paladin
Table: Monster HD per spell
{table=head]Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|-|-|-|-

2nd|-|-|-|-

3rd|-|-|-|-

4th|7|-|-|-

5th|8|-|-|-

6th|8|-|-|-

7th|9|-|-|-

8th|10|11|-|-

9th|11|12|-|-

10th|12|12|-|-

11th|13|13|14|-

12th|14|14|14|-

13th|14|15|15|-

14th|14|16|16|17

15th|15|16|17|17

16th|16|16|17|18

17th|17|17|17|19

18th|17|18|18|19

19th|18|18|18|19

20th|19|19|19|19[/table]

The Paladin goes on quests to vanquish evil, and is granted power by his deity to overcome those that would otherwise defeat him.

At the beginning of the day a Paladin chooses one spell of each level he is able to cast from his spell list. These are his blessings for the day.

When an evil creature of hit dice equal to or greater than that shown on the table above attacks the Paladin, he gains one use of his spell of the appropriate level. If the creature has HD equal to or greater than the requirement for several different spell levels the Paladin chooses which spell he gains the use of.

The Paladin may cast any of his granted spells as normal, as long as the creature that attacked him to grant him the spell is still living. Once it is vanquished the Paladin loses the spell that it granted him unless he has already cast it.

A Paladin must rest for 8 hours to be able to pray for his spells, and it takes an amount of time equal to the time mentioned the the PHB to do so.

To pray for, learn, or cast a spell a Paladin must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level. His spells' DCs are based on Wisdom. Paladins do not gain bonus spells.

Examples of the new Paladin in action: Alhandra, a 9th level paladin (minimum HDs 11/12), has prepared Cure Light Wounds and Bull's Strength and is fighting some skeletons on one side and a pack of dire bears on the other. First, a dire bear attacks her. Although it has enough hit dice to grant her a use of either of her spells, it is not evil, and so she gains no spells. She kills it, and moves towards the skeletons. She is attacked by a giant constrictor snake skeleton (11HD). Because it is evil she gains one use of her 'Cure Light Wounds' spell. Before her next turn she is attacked by another just like it, and gains another use of Cure Light Wounds. On her turn she uses the spell to attack one of the snakes that had already been severely weakened by her allies. It kills it, so she loses both the spell she expended to attack it and the use of Cure Light Wounds it granted her. Next round she is attacked by a skeletal dire bear (12HD). She could choose either to gain Cure Light Wounds or Bull's Strength. She chooses Bull's Strength, casts it, and charges at the skeleton, killing it. Bull's Strength remains active, as she cast it before killing the skeleton.

Heredos is an 19th level (18/18/18/19) urban Paladin specialising in detective work and justice. He is tracking down an evil spellcaster. He had already been attacked by one of the Wizard's zombie minions at the door, and chose to gain Detect Magic, his 1st level spell. He casts it, and finds an area that radiates transmutation. The party Wizard dispels it, and the wall falls away to show a secret passage. They move up it, and encounter the evil (19th level) Wizard. He casts fireball at the party, and hits. Heredos gains a use of Mark of Justice. The Wizard attacks again, and this time Heredos chooses to gain a third level spell, Discern Lies, instead. Once the party had captured the Wizard Heredos uses Discern Lies to make the the Wizard tell the truth of his crimes, then bestows a Mark of Justice upon him to stop him from re-committing. If the party had killed the Wizard, Heredos would have lost his spells.

[Doc Roc]

So, as a cleric:
What's to stop me from just preparing tons of Miracles every day to the condition:
"I need a miracle."

[Mongoose87]

So, as a cleric:
What's to stop me from just preparing tons of Miracles every day to the condition:
"I need a miracle."

I might kill whoever you wanted me to miracle.

[TheLonelyScribe]

1st level wizard with sleep memorised will win every encounter in round one. And unlike the RAW wizard, he just keeps casting and casting.

Seriously, what comes above tier 1?

O.K, maybe that is a bit of a problem. There is one thing you're forgetting, which is that sleep allows a will save and that any creature worth its salt will know that you always have to kill the Wizard first, especially if he's so busy casting that he can't move.

But you still have a good point. Should I have the action as a standard action again? Maybe one standard action has to be taken per spell? Can't 'recollect' and cast in the same round? Or something a bit different, like d2 hit dice or spells cost 'life force' (hp). Any suggestions?

I'll be playtesting these at some point, but not for quite a while.

[TheLonelyScribe]

So, as a cleric:
What's to stop me from just preparing tons of Miracles every day to the condition:
"I need a miracle."

Ah, I didn't make myself exactly clear. The condition needs to be something that can be expressed mechanically. Diseased or poisoned is a mechanical quality, needing something isn't. I will edit it to make that more clear. Also: XP cost.

[TheLonelyScribe]

Anything built with this "system" is going to be one of them. God help you if a wizard gets Miracle. Hint: It's not hard.

Sorry, how does a Wizard get Miracle? I thought it was only for Clerics. If you are playing some variant that lets them do so, there is one, very simple rule to follow. Don't.

Also, why is system in quotation marks? It may be a bad system, but it's still a system none the less. You appear to be in a bad mood. It would be nice if you worded your criticisms a little more kindly. I'm kind of new to homebrewing.

[Doc Roc]

Sorry, how does a Wizard get Miracle? I thought it was only for Clerics. If you are playing some variant that lets them do so, there is one, very simple rule to follow. Don't.

Also, why is system in quotation marks? It may be a bad system, but it's still a system none the less. You appear to be in a bad mood. It would be nice if you worded your criticisms a little more kindly. I'm kind of new to homebrewing.

The issue is that it's not a system that's mechanically consistent across casters. Each caster presents a new and potentially troublesome mechanic that players have to learn, care for, and nourish. System mastery is an extremely painful process for the vast majority of people. In other words, it may be a system, but it is not systematic.

As for Miracle on a wizard, there are a few domains that have it, and domains aren't too hard to get. Or you can use a drakehelm, or a number of tricks. So the other thing here is that in straight play, with core only, this is going to serve to make everything but wizard and sorcerer considerably more powerful, and I'm not so sure it's not a buff to wizard. Outside of core, this generates problems, incompatibilities, and significant exploits.

I represent a minority opinion, however, on these boards.

[TheLonelyScribe]

@Doc Roc: I agree with pretty much everything you just said. This is not really supposed to work with non-core material, it is a bit iffy balance-wise, etc. etc. The reason they all have different mechanics is because I think that having all the same mechanics doesn't really support differences between casters and that mechanics, as it is, doesn't really match flavour.

If anyone plays it at all I think it will be for one reason: fun. Magic that works in this general kind of way, with at-will spells or recharge spells, is generally easier to play with and makes an intuitive kind of 'sense'. I mean, what isn't awesome about not knowing what spell you're about to cast? About flinging a spell every round? About coming back to life instantly after you die?

I know it may not be perfectly balanced, but I would enjoy playing it, and that's all the judgement I can really have easy access to right now, except for you. I suppose what I should be asking, instead of 'is this balanced?', should be 'could you enjoy playing a caster like this and not break the game?'

[Ashtagon]

I know it may not be perfectly balanced, but I would enjoy playing it, and that's all the judgement I can really have easy access to right now, except for you. I suppose what I should be asking, instead of 'is this balanced?', should be 'could you enjoy playing a caster like this and not break the game?'

My answer to this question is a resounding "no". A 1st level wizard gets one spell to cast as many times as he likes all day long. Short of intentionally crippling himself by avoiding the good 1st level spells, it's not possible to avoid breaking the system.

Summon monster I: it only lasts a round, but you get a free melee attack against any enemy within 30 feet, and no wall can block you. Plus, you get to use your pet's bab/damage instead of your own, and you don't have to get up close. Since it only lasts one round at this level, it's not worth any enemy striking back at it either.

Charm person: Find guard-room, get army. One hour's use of however many orcs were in that room is plenty enough to clean out most dungeons. Plus, you can just charm any others you meet and add them to your army!

Sleep: As I noted, you can spam this all day, and few low-level monsters have good Will saves. Certainly not good enough to resist one every round.

Colour spray: Except for the short range, this is almost as good as sleep.

That's just from the SRD. Note that as written under your system, the wizard can cast these every round all day long.

[TheLonelyScribe]

@Ashtagon: Yes, I know. That's why I need some help figuring out how to make it more balanced. Just telling me that the same thing is wrong over and over again isn't going to help me fix it. Telling me whether any of the methods I proposed to make it more balanced are any good will. Please, just look at my original response to your 'sleep' comment, and pick one at random if you so wish. At the moment, I'm in favour of it taking at least 2 rounds to recall and cast a spell of a level higher than 0.

[Pronounceable]

The issue is that it's not a system that's mechanically consistent across casters. Each caster presents a new and potentially troublesome mechanic that players have to learn, care for, and nourish.
That's the whole point. DnD magic is incredibly dull, dry, and very blatantly not magical. Give me actual magic over "game balance" any day. Balance is overrated anyway.

So, as a cleric:
What's to stop me from just preparing tons of Miracles every day to the condition:
"I need a miracle."
:smallsigh:The DM. Preventing various shenaningans is his job. One common tendency of folks on "teh net" is to assume that DM is a sack of potatoes and will let the game go RAW. No game is ever played RAW, and that's triply true for a DM who'd actually post stuff in a HB forum.

Give any ruleset to a gamist and he'll break it. Or "optimize" it, which is just it wearing glasses and a suit. Making it hard to break is necessary however, and on that front you're right here.


So for the aforementioned wizard, trimming and tweaking whole spell list or even mechanics would be the best option. Alas, that'd be a very big undertaking. So it's either some hardcaps (which take us back to vancian), or some other cost. It's true that spending 5 rounds concentrating to cast a spell isn't very fun, an alternative that easily comes to mind would be damage:

real: 1hp per spell level would seriously cramp that 1st lvl pwnzard's style. Of course it'd have to be unhealable without rest, which produces a bit more red tape.

subdual: Again, 1 per spell level would work well. Considering the rarity of subdual damage being used in combat, it wouldn't be as much of a fuss.

ability: Int damage would be by far the most flavorful, but needs more care than 1 per spell level. Possibly there needs to be a concentration/caster level/fort check with DC increasing. I'd say this could be the glass shoe here, but needs more solid number crunching.
OTOH Str/Con/Dex damage could represent a physical toll. Maybe a combination for higher spell levels? And increased damage for metamagic... There's potential here.

...
The paladin looks good on paper, but I'm sure it'll strangle the game with red tape during large battles. Why do paladins cast spells anyway? A paladin is a holy defender of his faith, not a prophet that performs miracles to spread the word. He's facing a minor evil mage? His god grants him Resistance. He needs to learn where the hostages are held? He's endowed with Owl's Wisdom or Eagle's Splendor. He's battling demons? His sword becomes Holy Sword. Have effects of clerical spells kick in when his god sees fit. Limited by paladin level, his god's portfolio and maybe a per day limit, that would be infinitely more conceptually pally than the default missmashed fighter/cleric.
...
I'm wondering what's up with the bard.

[TheLonelyScribe]

... cnsvnc! Thank you! Other than Lapak you are the first one on this thread who's said anything genuinely useful! You're completely awsome! (you can sig that if you want)

I think that Wisdom drain may be an idea. The reason I'm thinking this is because it takes a lot of concentration to remember Wizard spells. Maybe a Concentration check after each spell cast, as if they had been casting the spell and had be dealt (1/2 Wizard level + spell level) damage, and if the Wizard fails he can choose between two options, either the spell is cast but one other spell that they revised today is forgotten, or they take Wisdom drain equal to the spell's level (at least one) but remember all their spells.

I'm thinking that, with the Paladin, every time he takes an action in combat he 'rolls for a spell' against a very high DC. He gets a bonus to this roll equal to his Wisdom modifier and something on the table. If he 'beats' the DC his god (the DM) chooses a suitable spell for the situation (higher level for a higher roll) and casts it at a suitable target. This doesn't work if the Paladin is not battling evil. Your average adventurer takes about 24-40 combat actions per day, so I'd gear the DC towards giving him a number of spells per day slightly less than on the table in the PHB, as they are always appropriate to the situation.

I was going to do the Ranger before the Bard, but actually I think my Ranger is really cool (ohmygoodness so modest) and I'm going to save the best till last. Be prepared for the new bard, hopefully up some time today.

[TheLonelyScribe]

O.K, balance was a little tricky with this one, so tell me what you think. Also, I've moved all sleep-inducing effects up a level.

Bard
The Bard casts his spells with the power of music, and he can weave weird and wonderful effects with the power of song. However, if the music falters, so does the enchantment, sometimes with disastrous results.

A Bard knows a number of spells per day equal to the amount the table in the PHB says he can cast per day. He draws his spells from a new spell list, which is spoilered below.

A Bard can cast any spell he knows at any time normally, except that all spells have a duration of concentration. If the spell previously had a duration of concentration + x rounds, it's duration is still changed to simply concentration. A Bard cannot cast spells in an area of magical silence that has not been created by him. To cast a spell a Bard must be able to sing, hum, whistle or play on a musical instrument. If the Bard is casting Silence, an illusion spell or an enchantment spell he can choose to make the music un-noticeable, useful when making figments. A Bard can make a mundane perform check (not one to use his bardic music ability) and cast a spell at the same time if he so wishes. Language-dependant spells must be cast with a non-vocal instrument.

If a Bard wishes to apply metamagic feats to his spells he must have learnt them that way (as a higher level spell).

A Bard must rest and 'prepare' his spells every day as mentioned in the Bard entry in the PHB.

To learn or cast spells the Bard must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell's level. The Bard's spells' DCs are based on Charisma. The Bard gains bonus spells in the form of more spells known.

Bard Spell List:

0 Level: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Daze, Ghost Sound, Know Direction, Light, Lullaby, Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Resistance, Summon Instrument

1st Level: Animate Rope, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Grease, Hypnotism, Lesser Confusion, Obscure Object, Remove Fear, Silent Image, Summon Monster I, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Unseen Servant, Ventriloquism

2nd Level: Alter Self, Animal Trance, Blindness/Deafness, Blur, Calm Emotions, Cat's Grace, Darkness, Daze Monster, Delay Poison, Detect Thoughts, Eagle's Splendour, Enthrall, Fox's Cunning, Glitterdust, Heroism, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Invisibility, Locate Object, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Misdirection, Pyrotechnics, Rage, Scare, Shatter, Silence, Sleep, Suggestion, Summon Monster II, Summon Swarm, Tongues

3rd Level: Blink, Charm Monster, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Daylight, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Fear, Gaseous Form, Glibness, Good Hope, Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Major Image, Phantom Steed, Scrying, Sculpt Sound, See Invisibility, Slow, Speak With Animals, Summon Monster III

4th Level: Deep Slumber, Detect Scrying, Dominate Person, Freedom of Movement, Hallucinatory Terrain, Hold Monster, Greater Invisibility, Leomund's Secure Shelter, Locate Creature, Rainbow Pattern, Repel Vermin, Shadow Conjuration, Speak with Plants, Summon Monster IV, Zone of Silence

5th Level: Greater Dispel Magic, Dream, False Vision, Greater Heroism, Mind Fog, Mirage Arcana, Mislead, Nightmare, Seeming, Shadow Evocation, Shadow Walk, Song of Discord, Mass Suggestion, Summon Monster V

6th Level: Animate Objects, Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Charm Monster, Mass Eagle's Splendour, Eyebite, Find the Path, Mass Fox's Cunning, Heroes' Feast, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Project Image, Greater Scrying, Summon Mosnter VI, Sympathetic Vibration, Veil

Examples of the new Bard in action: Elendor, a 9th level Bard, is battling a group of bandits. He uses Summon Monster III and hangs at the back of the party, acting through his very own small elemental. An enemy kills the creature, however, and the spell finishes. Elendor uses his bardic music ability for most of the rest of the encounter to help his allies, but soon there is only one bandit left. Elendor uses Hold Person on it while he and his allies escape.

Gimble, a 19th level Bard, is on a covert mission to defeat an evil Bard overlord. He uses Veil to keep him and his allies inconspicuous in the Bard's castle until they can sneak up to the evil spellcaster's dormitory at night. Using Silence, they sneak into the extra-security room with no problem, and, rather anticlimatically, the party assassin kills the overlord in his sleep. The party move off again, but are caught by castle guards. One fires an arrow at Gimble, ending his spell. The Bard is not one to be easily defeated, however, and uses Animate Objects to distract the guards while he and his allies run off.

[TheLonelyScribe]

Drum-roll please! Time for the last PHB class that has not already been done to get a make-over (this isn't the end though, obviously, I'm going to need a lot of help refining these things, and, once they're done, I'm thinking of turning this thread into an emporium of mechanically original spellcasters).

Ranger
{table=head]Level|Highest Level Spell

1st|
-

2nd|
-

3rd|
-

4th|
-

5th|
0

6th|
0

7th|
0

8th|
0

9th|
1

10th|
1

11th|
1

12th|
2

13th|
2

14th|
2

15th|
3

16th|
3

17th|
3

18th|
3

19th|
3

20th|
3[/table]

The Ranger gathers his strength from the land around him, and so the land influences the spells he casts. Although he isn't as adapted to artificial terrain as to natural, such places still hold great power that he can tap into.

At 5th level a Ranger chooses a Magic Style: Battle Magic or Utility Magic. A Battle Magic Ranger gets a +1 bonus to damage when casting spells at a favoured enemy. A Utility Magic Ranger chooses one type of terrain. He casts spells in that terrain with +1 caster level.

A Ranger casts different spells depending on what terrain he's in (see below). When he first enters an area he gets the ability to use the 0-level spell that is associated with that area. A Ranger above 9th level can take a standard action to become more attuned with an area. This grants him the ability to cast spells one level higher than before, as in the area descriptions below. He may not cast spells of a level higher than is mentioned on the table above.

Rangers cast spells as in the spell descriptions. A Ranger may not cast a spell whilst another he cast is still in effect.

A Ranger must rest for 8 hours to be able to absorb his spells for the rest of the day.

To absorb or cast a spell a Ranger must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell's level. His spells' DCs are based on Wisdom. Rangers do not gain bonus spells.

Ranger Spells by Terrain:

Where it is said spell/spell, the first spell is a spell only available to Utility Magic Rangers and the second spell is only available to Battle Magic Rangers. If, in the 0-level section of the terrain spell list, it doesn't say a spell but simply a type of damage followed by (RoF) this functions as the spell 'Ray of Frost' but instead deals the type of damage mentioned.

Underground (Dungeons, Caverns etc.)
0 level: Daze/Untyped (RoF) 1st level: Detect Secret Doors/Obscuring Mist 2nd level: Daze Monster/Summon Swarm 3rd level: Darkvision/Ray of Exhaustion

Forest
0 level: Virtue/Untyped (RoF) 1st level: Entangle/Summon Nature's Ally I 2nd Level: Snare/Spike Growth 3rd level: Tree Shape/Slow

Mountainous
0 level: Know Direction/Ray of Frost 1st level: Jump/Obscuring Mist 2nd level: Gust of Wind/Soften Earth and Stone 3rd level: Stone Shape/Wind Wall

Plains
0 level: Flare/Fire (RoF) 1st level: Endure Elements/Longstrider 2nd level: Soften Earth and Stone/Bear's Endurance 3rd level: Diminish Plants/Sleet Storm

Above Water
0 level: Create Water/Purify Food and Drink 1st level: Delay Poison/Grease 2nd level: Gust of Wind/Chill Metal 3rd level: Water Walk

Under Water
0 level: Create Water 1st level: Animate Rope 2nd level: Summon Nature's Ally II (Aquatic only) 3rd level: Water Breathing

Urban
0 level: Mending/Untyped (RoF) 1st level: Impeding Stones (found in Cityscape) 2nd level: Summon Swarm 3rd level: Remove Disease

Airborne
0 level: Flare/Ray of Frost 1st level: Summon Nature's Ally I (flying creature only) 2nd level: Wind Wall/Gust of Wind 3rd level: Fly

Desecrated Ground
All Inflict Spells

Consecrated Ground
All Cure Spells

The Plane of Shadow
0 level: Message 1st level: Cause Fear 2nd level: Darkness 3rd level: Deeper Darkness

The Ethereal Plane
0 level: Light 1st level: Shield of Faith/Magic Missile 2nd level: See Invisibility/Invisibility 3rd level: Blink/Invisibility Sphere

Negative Energy Plane
All Inflict Spells

Positive Energy Plane
All Cure Spells

Elemental Plane of Water
As Under Water, but Summon Nature's Ally summons water elemental

Elemental Plane of Fire
0 level: Fire (RoF) 1st level: Endure Elements/Burning Hands 2nd level: Resist Energy/Flaming Sphere 3rd level: Summon Nature's Ally III (fire elemental only)/Fireball

Elemental Plane of Earth
0 level: Daze 1st level: Hold Portal 2nd level: Summon Nature's Ally II (earth elemental) 3rd level: Summon Nature's Ally III (earth elemental)

Elemental Plane of Air
As Airborne, but Summon Nature's Ally summons air elemental

Evil Outer Planes
0 level: Daze All others Summon Monster as an evil spell

Good Outer Planes
0 level: Daze All others Summon Monster as an good spell


Any other important ones I've forgotten?


Example of the new Ranger in action: Soveliss, a 19th level Utility Magic Ranger, is battling a Mind Flayer deep underground. He and his party are running along after the creature. There is little else to do with his standard actions, so Soveliss starts to get attuned to the area. He gets to third level, and so uses Darkvision so that he wouldn't have to rely on the Dwarf in the party any longer. They are so busily hurrying after the aberration that they don't notice a planar pit trap in the floor leading to the elemental plane of air. As they fall, and the party Wizard is preparing fly, Soveliss gets attuned, taking 3 rounds out. He casts fly on himself and on the other members of the party along with the Wizard.

[Pronounceable]

Ranger is more druidic than druid, who might as well have been a blood mage of sorts. Otherwise it's tasty. Bard looks fine.

I'll probably yoink the cleric and "ranger" fluff sometime in the future. As for the fine tuning, you'll need more mechanically inclined posters.

[TheLonelyScribe]

O.K, so, more flavourful Druid casting, less power-crazy Wizard casting, and less tricky Paladin casting:

Druid: A Druid has a maximum spell points of half the table in the Druid entry above says they have per morning (rounded up). They can recharge their spell points by placing their hands on any natural ground (cracks in a pavement or a cave wall will do) and meditating for 10 rounds, essentially treated as helpless for that time.

Wizard: When a Wizard casts a spell he must make a Concentration check, the DC equal to 14 + (2 x the spell's level). If he fails he has two options, he may either roll randomly and forget one spell until he revises his spells again, or he may work his mind overtime to remember the spells, taking subdual damage equal to 2 x the spell's level. A Wizard needn't roll when he casts a 0-level spell.

Paladin fix coming soon.

[TheLonelyScribe]

Should the subdual damage for Wizard be healable or no? It wouldn't be completely unbalanced to have it as healable, as the Cleric would have another thing to heal.

Paladin:
{table=head]Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th

1st|25|29|31|34

2nd|24|28|30|33

3rd|23|27|29|32

4th|22|26|28|31

5th|21|25|27|30

6th|20|24|26|29

7th|20|23|25|28

8th|20|22|24|27

9th|20|21|23|26

10th|19|20|22|25

11th|19|20|21|24

12th|18|19|20|23

13th|18|19|20|22

14th|17|19|20|21

15th|16|18|19|20

16th|15|17|19|20

17th|14|16|18|20

18th|13|16|18|20

19th|10|13|16|19

20th|9|12|15|18[/table]

When a Paladin takes a standard action in combat he rolls a d20 and adds his Wisdom modifier. If his result is equal to or greater than one of the values on the table above he gets a spell with a level of the highest DC he beat. This spell is cast immediately, as if he prepared it as a Cleric, however, the Paladin gets no control over what the spell is or who it targets. It is a blessing granted by his god, and the DM decides the specifics. The spells vary by what actions triggered them, and I will post a list of possible spells for different types of actions soon.

[IcarusWings]

Some minor questions on the ranger...

Do the terrains stacks? e.g. what if you're in an underwater dungeon/cave system, and what about if you're in some random paraelemental plane(not sure if they even exist) of say, steam, would you be able to attune to both water and fire planes and, if so, how? would you take 6 rounds to get 3rd level spells for both or would it take 3 rounds?

Also, while I'm pretty sure that "Above water" means on water such as on a ships or awesome ninja water-walking, this could do with some clarification in case people misinterpret it as "above sea-level" which would just mean you could do it anytime you're not underwater.

Finally, does underwater count if you're not completely submerged?

Merlin

[TheLonelyScribe]

Some minor questions on the ranger...

Do the terrains stacks? e.g. what if you're in an underwater dungeon/cave system, and what about if you're in some random paraelemental plane(not sure if they even exist) of say, steam, would you be able to attune to both water and fire planes and, if so, how? would you take 6 rounds to get 3rd level spells for both or would it take 3 rounds?

In one of these cases there are two approaches you could take. One would be to create a new spell list for that environment, this would make sense for a place like your 'steam plane'. Another would be to simply let the Ranger choose one spell list that applies to the area: they become attuned to that spell list but can switch spell lists once every round if they are willing to start the attuning process over again.


Also, while I'm pretty sure that "Above water" means on water such as on a ships or awesome ninja water-walking, this could do with some clarification in case people misinterpret it as "above sea-level" which would just mean you could do it anytime you're not underwater.

OK, just to clarify, above water means that you can look down and see water (or are on a water-faring vessel of some time in the water) but not be at all submerged.


Finally, does underwater count if you're not completely submerged?

Yes.