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Jinn Master
2010-05-06, 02:37 PM
Could a phylactery be made out of say, a child's rib, or maybe out of something that the child doesn't know is there, but is grafted into him?

I want the players to have to kill a twelve year old if they want to stop a man who is becoming a lich (the child's father).

gbprime
2010-05-06, 02:41 PM
Sure. Render subject unconscious, make surgical incision, insert item, heal subject. If it's a smallish item, the person might not even know it's inside them.

LibraryOgre
2010-05-06, 02:44 PM
Pretty much, yeah. It can't be part of the living body (without coming up with something exotic), but there's nothing to keep it from being inserted.

Of course, what having this item inside them DOES to the 12-year-old is interesting. Remember how Roy detected as evil when carrying Xykon's crown?

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-06, 02:47 PM
Fantasy worlds are dangerous. Aside from being symbolically evil and bearing accusations of trying to be like Voldemort, it seems impractical to make another being a phylactery, as they tend to be difficult to protect.

obnoxious
sig

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-06, 02:48 PM
Not sure about the legality of that but I do have a suggestion for making something of the sort.

Step 1: Become a Lich

Step 2: Cast Dispel Magic on Phylactery

Step 3: Cast Polymorph Any Object twice on the temporarily non-magical Phylactery to make it anything you want permanently

Step 4: ?????

Step 5: Profit!

Steps 4 and 5 are not required. This may not help if the character already has a natural son or is not to actually become a lich, but is to be stopped before that point.

Note: Scrolls may be used for steps 2 and 3.

druid91
2010-05-06, 02:50 PM
Which is why you make your phylactory into a grain of sand and then embed that grain of sand into the center of a magically reinforced lead sheet that you sell to some diplomat or another who needs to coat his walls in lead to avoid scrying spells.

Jinn Master
2010-05-06, 03:07 PM
Then the diplomat will just kill you over and over as you try to regenerate >.>


The BBEG is a decently powerful necromancer who is trying to become a lich, and has a natural son whom he wants to follow in his footsteps when he is older. So, he wants to hide his phylactery in plain sight, without the child's knowledge, in the child.
PC's will probably take the kid hostage, since the father does care about the son, but I don't think they'll kill him- especially if they don't know about the phylactery.

Any suggestions for what type of item I should use? Hopefully something that would give the kid some benefits in case anyone tried to kill him/take him captive/whatever?

WildPyre
2010-05-06, 03:12 PM
I would make the item about the same size as one of those bouncy balls... probably a large black pearl and a gold chain wrapped around the kid's heart. That way if the heroes do try to take it out without killing the boy the task is a little more difficult and dramatic.

gbprime
2010-05-06, 03:12 PM
Any suggestions for what type of item I should use? Hopefully something that would give the kid some benefits in case anyone tried to kill him/take him captive/whatever?

Use something small and innocuous so it is extremely hard to detect. The BBEG can then give him other trinkets that the kid DOES know about for defense. Grafts, symbiotes, contingent spells, and more normal trinkets are all good choices. It really depends on what the guy can make or has left over in loot.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-06, 03:16 PM
Then the diplomat will just kill you over and over as you try to regenerate >.>

While regenerating Xykon-style next to the phylactery seems a popular interpretation, nowhere in the rules does it say this happens. While I think it's reasonable enough to say the lich appears near his phylactery (not that my groups play this way), I think emphasis should be placed on 'reappears'.

Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

obnoxious
sig

Jinn Master
2010-05-06, 03:42 PM
Ah. Didn't realize that.

As for what he can make, not much at this time. He is just incredibly rich, so he buys things. The campaign is just getting rolling, but I like to plan ahead- he won't be a Lich in the next couple of weeks, but will likely start the process next session.

I'd say this guy's spending limit is about 30k gp for now, in terms of what he can buy to protect his kid.


This is a 4th edition campaign, but I am using 3.5 splatbooks, such as the Bovid. My opening campaign arc was a 3.5 Kobold adventure.
Basically, I'm taking Points of Light, but playing it as it would be right before that era ended, and new empires arise.
Hehe. All the cool spells and things I like or the players like from 3.5, I'm converting.

Drogorn
2010-05-06, 04:13 PM
What happens if you kill the child, turn his skull into your phylactery, then resurrect him?

taltamir
2010-05-06, 04:18 PM
anything that can be inserted without killing the subject can be extracted without killing the subject.

They wouldn't care about desecrating the corpse of a child, only if he is still alive, and in that case they wouldn't need to kill him...

now, the alternative is to make the himself the phylactery. The problem with that is that it is against the rules.
there has been a suggestion to use PaO under very broken interpretation to permanently transform the phylactery into a child though.
The idea is that polymorph any object is only permanent if enough factors off of a list a met. However, PaO itself can change your your type, size, etc...

So you firm transform the box into a person, which would have a fairly short duration, during that time you transform the "person" into itself for a permanent duration (because every single factor is met... same intelligence, same size, etc).

But that opens the door to a whole slew of problems.

Anyways, death isn't immutable in DnD, you can kill and then resurrect someone. So its not nearly the serious issue people try to make it be (that is, they try to make it as serious as IRL death)

Loxagn
2010-05-06, 04:44 PM
Make your phylactery a grain of sand and then stick it in the elemental plane of sand, or something similar. Phylactery problem solved. Who the hell is gonna look for a single grain of sand in the middle of a desert?

shadowkiller
2010-05-06, 04:46 PM
There is no reason you couldn't house rule that something living can be used as a phylactery. Although I would add some chance that the regrowing process kills the host, which would destroy the phylactery.

If you don't want to go that route you could have the phylactery fused to the kid's bones with a spell that regrows the connection instantly preventing removal. That effect should probably be epic or at least worded in such a way that an AMF couldn't be used to get around it. Removing the regeneration spell with something like disjunction would kill the kid as well because his body has adapted to it or something.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-06, 04:47 PM
Make your phylactery a grain of sand and then stick it in the elemental plane of sand, or something similar. Phylactery problem solved. Who the hell is gonna look for a single grain of sand in the middle of a desert?

Obsessive Player Characters.

Really Obsessive Player Characters will demand a map and start grid-searching.

Insanely Obsessive Player Characters will also demand random encounters the entire time they're there... so they can continue to get XP.

taltamir
2010-05-06, 05:00 PM
Make your phylactery a grain of sand and then stick it in the elemental plane of sand, or something similar. Phylactery problem solved. Who the hell is gonna look for a single grain of sand in the middle of a desert?

make sure to make it impossible to scry before you do that... And see if you can make it a grain of something stronger than common sand. (technically sand refers to the shape not the material though; but most people don't know that...)

There are a few problems, by raw the phylactery must be a certain size, have a certain hardness, HP, etc...

Otherwise you would make it out of a single grain of <insert indestructible material here> and hide it in some infinite plain or another.


Obsessive Player Characters.

Really Obsessive Player Characters will demand a map and start grid-searching.

Insanely Obsessive Player Characters will also demand random encounters the entire time they're there... so they can continue to get XP.

how do you grid search an INFINITE plane?

Revanmal
2010-05-06, 05:07 PM
Pick a starting point and work your way out from there.

deuxhero
2010-05-06, 05:23 PM
Then the diplomat will just kill you over and over as you try to regenerate >.>


The BBEG is a decently powerful necromancer who is trying to become a lich, and has a natural son whom he wants to follow in his footsteps when he is older. So, he wants to hide his phylactery in plain sight, without the child's knowledge, in the child.
PC's will probably take the kid hostage, since the father does care about the son, but I don't think they'll kill him- especially if they don't know about the phylactery.

Any suggestions for what type of item I should use? Hopefully something that would give the kid some benefits in case anyone tried to kill him/take him captive/whatever?

I think a host dieing and then the body decaing would end your immortality (You can't make a new one).

Prodan
2010-05-06, 05:25 PM
Could a phylactery be made out of say, a child's rib, or maybe out of something that the child doesn't know is there, but is grafted into him?
Like a dental filling?

Zeful
2010-05-06, 06:00 PM
Could a phylactery be made out of say, a child's rib, or maybe out of something that the child doesn't know is there, but is grafted into him?According to the monster manual entry: No. The phylactery is always a box with a piece of parchment inside. The Libris Mortis might say more, but even then, I don't think the "Grain of sand" is a viable phylactery.


I want the players to have to kill a twelve year old if they want to stop a man who is becoming a lich (the child's father).

If it's something that's non-vital, then good luck.

Vikazc
2010-05-06, 08:08 PM
From the SRD---

The Lich’s Phylactery

An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40.

Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.

Just to clarify.

Flickerdart
2010-05-06, 08:12 PM
A grain or sand bears no similarity to a ring or amulet.

OracleofWuffing
2010-05-06, 08:25 PM
A grain or sand bears no similarity to a ring or amulet.
Actually, I've seen a grain of rice turned into an amulet. It was one of those chintzy "I will write your name on a grain of rice" souvenir type things, but there you go.

There might be something going for making it out of an amulet for a Fine creature, that gets pretty small. I mean, I know magical items can resize and all that, but hey, I'm just running with the idea.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 08:52 PM
Which is why you make your phylactory into a grain of sand and then embed that grain of sand into the center of a magically reinforced lead sheet that you sell to some diplomat or another who needs to coat his walls in lead to avoid scrying spells.

You've broken at least three rules about phylacteries in this post - can you spot them all?

druid91
2010-05-06, 09:32 PM
You've broken at least three rules about phylacteries in this post - can you spot them all?

I only see one. it can't be a grain of sand. this one kinda breaks the rest but hey...

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 09:46 PM
I only see one. it can't be a grain of sand. this one kinda breaks the rest but hey...

That one breaks two of them.

"It must either contain or bear an arcane inscription. Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40."

1) A grain of sand can neither bear nor contain an arcane inscription;
2) A grain of sand is at most Fine, not Tiny.

The third rule relates to what you were doing with it:

"A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it."

i.e. the enchanted sheet of lead.

shadowkiller
2010-05-06, 10:09 PM
That one breaks two of them.

"It must either contain or bear an arcane inscription. Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40."

1) A grain of sand can neither bear nor contain an arcane inscription;
2) A grain of sand is at most Fine, not Tiny.

The third rule relates to what you were doing with it:

"A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it."

i.e. the enchanted sheet of lead.

1) a wizard should be able to put an inscription on a grain of sand, we can inscribe stuff way smaller with technology computer processors are around 40 nm with the etching on the chip

2) I agree with you there although that rule sounds a bit ambiguous as it could mean that any size object made into a phylactery will be considered Tiny

3) I don't see why you couldn't form the lead around the phylactery as that would be a separate object

That being said I don't think that a gain of sand would be suitable for a phylactery unless it was for a tiny or smaller creature and had been worked into something such that it wasn't just a plain grain of sand.

druid91
2010-05-06, 10:09 PM
OK you take a tiny sized object shrink it to the size of a grain of sand and then coat it in lead and embed it behind three feet of rock and 1 3/4 of adamantine behind the throne.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 10:11 PM
OK you take a tiny sized object shrink it

"...nor may additional magical properties be added to it."

druid91
2010-05-06, 10:16 PM
"...nor may additional magical properties be added to it."

But it can be subject to spells right? there is a spell called shrink object. It shrinks objects. If not thats just stupid, give an undead spellcaster a magic box that radiates evil and then not let him protect the thing with spells, no you got to build a dungeon complex. Just not efficient, If I were a lich I would use my eternity to research ways to make smaller, more efficient and sneaky phylacteries.

gbprime
2010-05-06, 10:38 PM
Make your phylactery a grain of sand and then stick it in the elemental plane of sand, or something similar. Phylactery problem solved. Who the hell is gonna look for a single grain of sand in the middle of a desert?

I'd be the first to wonder if EVERY grain of sand in that desert wasn't a phylactery for someone... :smallamused:

But seriously, tiny with writing, and it doesn't do anything else. Embedding it deep inside something solid far from where you're doing your work is the best way to protect it. Inside a body works too, as you've said, but that's a tight fit for a Tiny object. Otherwise, it could be an ornate curtain rod in your cathedral (one of those 128 windows), a tome of research you donated to a far away library under an assumed identity, or an ornate key that the PC's need to get OUT of the death trap you concealed the thing in. :smallamused:

QuantumSteve
2010-05-06, 10:39 PM
Hiding a phylactery "in plain sight" as it were, seems to me a rather foolish course of action. Sure it may keep the odd PC from finding it, but to leave it in a place you don't control for thousands of years is just begging for some completely random mishap to break it. Not to mention many of the better anti-divination spells need to be recast on a regular basis.

Also, what if someone just happens to cast dispel magic in that very area. Suddenly your phylactery, cleverly embedded in adamantine, expands to it's original size. You're screwed.

No, Liches keep their phylacteries in cliche dungeons for a reason. They're not just protecting it from PCs. They're protecting it from everyone and everything ..... forever.

Knaight
2010-05-06, 10:59 PM
Of course, if you make it difficult to break in the first place you are fine. A pebble on the ocean floor is perfectly safe for a very long time, if hard to break to begin with.

Last Laugh
2010-05-06, 11:10 PM
But it can be subject to spells right? there is a spell called shrink object. It shrinks objects. If not thats just stupid, give an undead spellcaster a magic box that radiates evil and then not let him protect the thing with spells, no you got to build a dungeon complex. Just not efficient, If I were a lich I would use my eternity to research ways to make smaller, more efficient and sneaky phylacteries.

Shrink item (Sor/Wizard 3, PHB) reduces an item by 4 size categories. It has a duration of 1 day/level. It can be made permanent through permanency.

But I would ask my DM if that counted as an additional magical effect.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-06, 11:13 PM
Of course, if you make it difficult to break in the first place you are fine. A pebble on the ocean floor is perfectly safe for a very long time, if hard to break to begin with.

It could get swallowed by a fish and taken God knows where, or worse, and underwater earthquake could open a fissure, then crush it. Both unlikely events, but over a long enough time line....

IMO, You'd want to take as much unpredictability out of the equation as possible if you truly want to live forever.

Munchkin-Masher
2010-05-07, 01:56 AM
"...nor may additional magical properties be added to it."

Dispell magic. (There may be a dispute about wether or not this "Destroys" the phylactery, but i would rule it wouldn't). this would make it temporarily non-magical.

Polymorph any Object into an exact copy of it self, only as small as you can possibly make it.

Throw in toilet/well.

Eat Delicious Adventurer cupcakes.

Jinn Master
2010-05-07, 03:31 AM
Hmm. Would it be possible to have the Phylactery in its own dimensional plane? What's the range on those things?

taltamir
2010-05-07, 05:01 AM
But it can be subject to spells right? there is a spell called shrink object. It shrinks objects. If not thats just stupid, give an undead spellcaster a magic box that radiates evil and then not let him protect the thing with spells, no you got to build a dungeon complex. Just not efficient, If I were a lich I would use my eternity to research ways to make smaller, more efficient and sneaky phylacteries.

does a permanent duration spell count? I thought it would only be impossible to add other crafted properties to it. A permanent magical spell isn't an enhancement. And it is dispellable. (which is a problem)


Pick a starting point and work your way out from there.

I don't think you quite grasp the meaning of infinite...
Even if it was a region as "small" as our galaxy you could spend billions of years searching without finding it.

Here is a plan... make a ring phylactery. (smallest allowable by RAW). Cover it with anti divination spells, cover it in with adamantium, cover that in lead, gover that in "rock" (shape earth) in a a misshapen appearance (aka, look like a random rock)... drop it in the ocean.

However, there remains a question here:
1. Could it be that even regular old "permanent" spells or spells with a duration interfere with a phylactery causing it not to function while they are active.
2. Could it be that things like lead which block divination might also block the phylactery from providing its function.
3. Could it be that putting it in another plane prevents it from operating?

I would say yes to all of that... and do NOT throw a curveball of "lich with impossible to find or destroy phylactery" at the players or their response will be to become a gaggly of liches... or at most baelnorn (a "good" lich powered by the positive energy plane; because positive energy and negative energy are both neutral; yes, it is as stupid as it sounds)

Stone Heart
2010-05-07, 05:17 AM
The best idea I've come up with is when making stones for your dungeons lay out, like bricks, just use something like concrete, and in one brick put the phylactery, nowhere conspicuous, but not too far out of the way either, like midway through the dungeon its the brick 5 feet off the ground 3 rows back a little off center in a hallway right before a big trap.

Jinn Master
2010-05-07, 05:17 AM
The lich has a specific link with a specific Dominion, and so I want him to have appropriated a dungeon already filled with all sorts of baddies, and just hide his Phylactery there.

I think I'll give the kid a fake Phylactery. And put the location of the other one into the fake one- a sort of "get it if you can" sort of thing.

WildPyre
2010-05-07, 05:25 AM
The lich has a specific link with a specific Dominion, and so I want him to have appropriated a dungeon already filled with all sorts of baddies, and just hide his Phylactery there.

I think I'll give the kid a fake Phylactery. And put the location of the other one into the fake one- a sort of "get it if you can" sort of thing.

This would be so deliciously evil if the kid were an innocent and the Lich enchanted the fake one to radiate necromancy as a real one would, tricking the heroes into possibly killing an innocent child.

Kinda like giving the good guys the big boney finger.

Revanmal
2010-05-07, 11:41 AM
I don't think you quite grasp the meaning of infinite...
Even if it was a region as "small" as our galaxy you could spend billions of years searching without finding it.

I know what "infinite" means, thank you. :smallannoyed:

Of course you're going to spend billions of years at the least trying to find it. In all likelihood, any Eladrins in your party will die before you find that grain of sand. So what would you suggest they do instead? If they can't pinpoint the location of a specific grain of sand in an infinite plane of sand, then the only way you could find the thing with any reliability is pick one place to start and then work in a sphere shape outward.

Shnezz
2010-05-07, 11:59 AM
According to the monster manual entry: No. The phylactery is always a box with a piece of parchment inside. The Libris Mortis might say more, but even then, I don't think the "Grain of sand" is a viable phylactery.


I do believe it says that is a TYPICAL form of a phylactery, but other objects have been known. I mean, Xykon's isn't a box.

Irreverent Fool
2010-05-07, 12:15 PM
I know what "infinite" means, thank you. :smallannoyed:

Of course you're going to spend billions of years at the least trying to find it. In all likelihood, any Eladrins in your party will die before you find that grain of sand. So what would you suggest they do instead? If they can't pinpoint the location of a specific grain of sand in an infinite plane of sand, then the only way you could find the thing with any reliability is pick one place to start and then work in a sphere shape outward.

If it's just a plane of sand, it seems reasonable enough to collapse the plane upon itself to destroy the lich.

obnoxious
sig

Mastikator
2010-05-07, 12:18 PM
An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.

Each lich must make its own phylactery, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40. Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.
- SRD

A grain of sand doesn't cost 120,000 gp and 4,800 xp to craft.
Nor does any organ of any creature imaginable.
A galaxy is easily worth a hundred trillion trillion of that, but we're talking a perfectly cut diamond a thousand times the size of the sun to cover that expense. So no. No crafting galaxies.

It's a tiny jewelery that's incredibly expensive. Not a galaxy, not a grain of sand or a neutrino (and for the record, a neutrino would be much harder to find, grab and destroy than a grain of sand or a galaxy), and not an organ.
You can't craft a galaxy, and the other aren't worth that much.


--

Also what would the point even be in making someone living your phylactery? Or placing it in someone living.
Living creatures have expiration dates, all you've managed to do is extend your lifespan to someone else's lifetime. Undeath is all about eternity, not someone else's lifetime. At best you'd live another 80 years, instead of indefinitely.
Volemort was a moron.

Jeff240sx
2010-05-07, 12:33 PM
1: Make the box a brick.
2: Make a dungeon out of bricks, including said brick.

This was already said. I like it.
My suggestion:

3: Use your brick to be part of a support column in a completely inaccessible room under the dungeon. But hey, it's a place for you to reappear, and can even have a backup scroll of teleport waiting for you.
4: Permanent Nystul's Magic Aura on each and every brick in the dungeon to eminate the same aura.

5: Create other "Phylactery"s and place them all over the world, in every dungeon imaginable, complete with said Permanent Nystul's.

I mean.. you're a lich.
You probably started before the current adventurer's grandparents even met.

Jinn Master
2010-05-07, 12:45 PM
This would be so deliciously evil if the kid were an innocent and the Lich enchanted the fake one to radiate necromancy as a real one would, tricking the heroes into possibly killing an innocent child.

Kinda like giving the good guys the big boney finger.

That's the plan.

Ravingdork
2010-05-07, 01:26 PM
With all these crappy restrictions in a FANTASY game, it's a good thing my group plays Pathfinder, which means many of your D&D rules do not apply to us.

Pathfinder's phylactery rules...

The Lich’s Phylactery
An integral part of becoming a lich is the creation of the phylactery in which the character stores his soul. The only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich can rejuvenate after it is killed. Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40. Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.

...As you can see, there are fewer restrictions. At best, a person could argue that it needs to be similar to a ring or amulet.

Seffbasilisk
2010-05-07, 01:41 PM
Also what would the point even be in making someone living your phylactery? Or placing it in someone living.
Living creatures have expiration dates, all you've managed to do is extend your lifespan to someone else's lifetime. Undeath is all about eternity, not someone else's lifetime. At best you'd live another 80 years, instead of indefinitely.
Volemort was a moron.

Voldemort had seven.

I propose this. Have a child. When the child gets injured, place him in a healing coma (or just render him unconscious, so it doesn't hurt. It IS your kid after all.) Remove one his vertebrae. Turn that into the 'ring' phylactery. Reinsert it. Massive healing mojo to connect it all, and make the kid all better. Wake the kid up, give him a magic item that additionally casts Nystals Magical Aura on him somewhat regularly.

You've a happy kid, all healthy, with a shiny object he'll treasure.

As long as he lives, you can pop in to check in on him every time some uppity adventurer 'kills' you. When he dies? It's your kid. Big pomp and circumstance, and a tricked out tomb.

Anyone invading? "You claim to be a paladin. A champion of righteousness and holiness. Yet still you would invade my son's place of final rest? You make me sick. Get out of here. All of you."

Zeful
2010-05-07, 02:12 PM
With all these crappy restrictions in a FANTASY game, it's a good thing my group plays Pathfinder, which means many of your D&D rules do not apply to us.Because of threads like this. Liches are immortal and could spend years flying into space and then drop his phylactery in a comet in deep space, making him perfectly unbeatable. Meaning 0xp for beating him (you have yet to overcome the challenge he represents) and he can keep trying until he wins.


Pathfinder's phylactery rules...

The Lich’s Phylactery
An integral part of becoming a lich is the creation of the phylactery in which the character stores his soul. The only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich can rejuvenate after it is killed. Each lich must create its own phylactery by using the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher. The phylactery costs 120,000 gp to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40. Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.

...As you can see, there are fewer restrictions. At best, a person could argue that it needs to be similar to a ring or amulet.
There aren't fewer restrictions, the text is almost word for word identical to description a few posts above yours. Further the relevant sections are identical in what a phylactery can be, which excludes sand.

The Tygre
2010-05-07, 02:32 PM
Mongoose Publishing had something exactly like this in their last book for the Drow Wars. Bodiless Ao and the Ivory Child; Ao being an insane demi-lich, and the Ivory Child being his phylactery who carried him around on a little velvet pillow with tassels. He also likes to send people fruit-baskets.

Ravingdork
2010-05-07, 02:37 PM
Because of threads like this. Liches are immortal and could spend years flying into space and then drop his phylactery in a comet in deep space, making him perfectly unbeatable. Meaning 0xp for beating him (you have yet to overcome the challenge he represents) and he can keep trying until he wins.

Sorry, but if you beat the lich in an encounter, you get the XP regardless of whether it exists to fight another day. Otherwise, you wouldn't get XP for that grizzly bear that attacked you in the woods, and then ran off when you wounded it severely. You don't necessarily need to kill things to get their XP. This is not a video game.

As for liches hiding their phylacteries in comets: extravagant things of that nature should be common practice for beings as powerful and intelligent as liches. I mean think about it, what would a high level adventurer need to recover such a phylactery? Knowledge of its location (easily done via divination), defense against space hazards (ring of sustenance and endure elements), and a pair of greater teleport scrolls. Makes for a tough challenge, but then again, that's the whole point of being a high level adventurer--it's hardly as insurmountable as you seem to indicate.

About the Pathfinder phylactery rules: You are right, the wording is pretty similar, but it is not the same. Notice that the text in both says MOST phylacteries are boxes, which is a far cry from ALL phylacteries. I can see most GMs saying that a grain of sand is not similar to a ring or amulet, but the phrasing of the rules is VERY loosely defined and even more open ended to interpretation. If one assumes that "similar to" means it "has to be small" then a grain of sand is a perfectly acceptable interpretation of the rule. Different groups will rule on the matter differently. The only thing that really changes the rules is Libris Mortes, which has no bearing on Pathfinder whatsoever.

I would also like to add that I am currently playing a sorceress in Pathfinder (witch concept) who will soon become a lich. Even before coming across threads such as this one I was planning on making my phylactery out of a grain of sand and then throwing it in a desert or the ocean. Finding ways to survive is hardly unique to threads such as these.

EDIT: I did a word by word comparison of the two phylactery rules and you are right in that there isn't nearly as much difference as I originally thought there to be. I've outlined them both below for your convenience. The left column is the text from Pathfinder whereas the right column is the text from D&D. The bold black text is where they both differ in wording.


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh275/Ravingdork/TheLichsPhylactery.jpg

Mauther
2010-05-07, 03:50 PM
This would be so deliciously evil if the kid were an innocent and the Lich enchanted the fake one to radiate necromancy as a real one would, tricking the heroes into possibly killing an innocent child.

Kinda like giving the good guys the big boney finger.

More important than the bony finger, it serves as a canary. Put significant defenses around the kid (bodyguards, wards, etc) so that adventurers have to expend serious resources to get him. At that point, the adventurers have identified themselves as a serious threat, tipped their hand as to their resources, and cost the lich nothing of any permanent value. I like it.

It might be more work, but make any clues refer to both the real and fake phylacteries. Maybe kill the son, turns his corpse into the phylactery, then inter him in the royal crypt. Then replace with a doppleganger.