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Zom B
2010-05-06, 03:36 PM
Are there rules somewhere on how to harvest poison from a creature and what is needed? I mean, do I need ranks in any Craft skill or can I just milk it and sell it?

The reason I ask is, my new Beguiler has an Amber Amulet of Vermin (Huge Monstrous Scorpion). At CR 7, this thing is a nice once-a-day-for-one-minute guardian for a level 3 character, at the affordable cost of 700gp. Plus, on days that I don't have to summon it, I can milk it that evening and sell the poison, since it obeys me if I tell it to "sting this jar and inject poison into it."

For that matter, how many doses of poison can I get out of this scorpion per day, I wonder. Is that listed anywhere?

Drogorn
2010-05-06, 03:53 PM
That guy was errated to be a large monstrous scorpion, since it's way out of line with the others.

As a DM, I don't think I would allow harvesting things from summoned creatures. I do allow players to harvest the poison of normal creatures though, without a check. It doesn't cause problems, as long as you consider it part of the creature's treasure.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-06, 03:56 PM
I don't know of any rules for it, but instead of a check I'd just give a player the same chance of poisoning themselves as when they're applying it to a weapon. Basically the same thing, just in the other direction.

Unless you want to take Profession (Poison Milker).

Divide by Zero
2010-05-06, 04:03 PM
Book of Vile Darkness, page 44.

awa
2010-05-06, 04:17 PM
I agree with the no milking poison from summoned creatures that just seems really abusable. I mean the large scorpion is already a really powerful item with out adding poison milking shenanigans

Zom B
2010-05-06, 04:31 PM
The way I see it, it's not something I can do every day, and it'd be a source of income, same as guys who can craft items. I really don't see why milking a summoned creature is bad, especially if it costs you a resource.

WildPyre
2010-05-06, 04:35 PM
The way I see it, it's not something I can do every day, and it'd be a source of income, same as guys who can craft items. I really don't see why milking a summoned creature is bad, especially if it costs you a resource.

Yes but if the item was a source for infinite money by milking and selling the poison every day... why would anyone ever sell it for a measly 700gp?

Generally anything the summoned creature brings with it when you summon it, goes with it when the duration is up.

Greenish
2010-05-06, 04:37 PM
Drow of the Underdark had something about "milking" poisonous critters. I seem to recall that it was Handle Animal check with Vermin Handler (if applicable) to extract material which can be used for Craft: Poisonmaking, and you could only get enough materials for 1 dose per day.

Though I might just be talking out of my derrière.

Zom B
2010-05-06, 04:55 PM
Yes but if the item was a source for infinite money by milking and selling the poison every day... why would anyone ever sell it for a measly 700gp?

Same reason you can buy a plow, or a knife, or a cow, all tools usable for infinite money by harvesting furs or fruits or milk or growing things. The world has millions of legitimate schemes where you can spend X moneys and get Y moneys in yield, where Y>X. I mean, putting money into a bank is one such scheme. I could put the 700gp in a bank and earn and withdraw 2% a day (14gp) on it in interest. If I get 14gp a day out of the scorpion venom, I see nothing that says "abuse."

WildPyre
2010-05-06, 05:01 PM
There's a HUGE difference between buying a plow to plow your land, plant seeds, water and fertilize them, wait for them to grow, harvest them and then sell them, and using a magic device to summon a creature, milk it for it's poison and then sell that poison for however much scorpion poison goes for. The return yield comes about much sooner and with less effort.

Greenish
2010-05-06, 05:08 PM
There's a HUGE difference between buying a plow to plow your land, plant seeds, water and fertilize them, wait for them to grow, harvest them and then sell them, and using a magic device to summon a creature, milk it for it's poison and then sell that poison for however much scorpion poison goes for. The return yield comes about much sooner and with less effort.Yeah well, milking giant monstrous scorpions should be more profitable than dirt-farming.

WildPyre
2010-05-06, 05:12 PM
Yeah well, milking giant monstrous scorpions should be more profitable than dirt-farming.

Never said it shouldn't... I'm saying the 700gp item that lets you summon a large monsterous scorpion per day that does your bidding, doesn't give you a virtually free ride.

If you could raise the scorpions like livestock, then yeah, much more profitable than dirt farming... of course that takes into account you can find a reliable market for selling the poison where it's legal.

Greenish
2010-05-06, 05:14 PM
Never said it shouldn't... I'm saying the 700gp item that lets you summon a large monsterous scorpion per day that does your bidding, doesn't give you a virtually free ride.

If you could raise the scorpions like livestock, then yeah, much more profitable than dirt farming... of course that takes into account you can find a reliable market for selling the poison where it's legal.And finding that market is a free ride when you have an amulet? :smallamused:

WildPyre
2010-05-06, 05:29 PM
Large scorpion venom is 200gp per shot, assuming he has a means to sell this himself, and it's legal to do so in the setting he's playing in, he would only have to sell 4 doses of poison. So after 4 days of downtime where he doesn't use the amulet in it's intended manner, IF the poison doesn't dissapear along with the summoned creature, he's making nothing but profit.

Having made 100gp in profit that 4th day it would take 3 more days for him to afford a second 700gp amulet.

As a DM this is why I rule that parts of the summoned creature's body unsummon along with them when the spell expires... I would extend this to include poison that hasn't dispersed into another creature.

Otherwise the amulet is clearly broke.

Greenish
2010-05-06, 05:37 PM
Large scorpion venom is 200gp per shot, assuming he has a means to sell this himself, and it's legal to do so in the setting he's playing in, he would only have to sell 4 doses of poison. So after 4 days of downtime where he doesn't use the amulet in it's intended manner, IF the poison doesn't dissapear along with the summoned creature, he's making nothing but profit. Assume he put points into Profession (for the sake of argument). Now he's making nothing but profit on his downtime.

Having made 100gp in profit that 4th day it would take 3 more days for him to afford a second 700gp amulet.Or the DM may make the poison sell for less, like he said he would. Besides, finding a market for the poison (especially if it's illegal) is at least one campaign hook, if not several (PCs wanted to make a little profit, get sucked into large-scale smuggling/linked to a wave of assassinations/are targeted by competing poison salesmen [the drow!] etc.).

The point is, he shouldn't straight out ban it if the idea tickles his fancy.

WildPyre
2010-05-06, 05:42 PM
Assume he put points into Profession (for the sake of argument). Now he's making nothing but profit on his downtime.

Yes he absolutely could take the profession skill and gain about half his profession check result in gp per week...

awa
2010-05-06, 05:42 PM
keeping in mind the poison milking part by itself is broken on a day hes not milking he still can use the scorpion to fight.

Edit if the pc wanted to capture real (not summoned) scorpions and try and harvest poison from them i'd allow that but you would have to deal with giant scorpions both acquiring them and maintaining them and they wouldn't stand still and let you milk them not without a fight

Greenish
2010-05-06, 05:49 PM
Yes he absolutely could take the profession skill and gain about half his profession check result in gp per week...So you're just upset about the profit? Then you should note that he plans to lower the sell price of the poison to something more reasonable.

He's the DM, he thinks it's cool, he will balance it, why is it so important to you that it gets banned?

Pluto
2010-05-06, 05:52 PM
There's a craft check involved in making the usable poisons.

Having the raw source drops the price to make the marketable poison from 1/3 the base cost to 1/6th.

The raw materials themselves (that you'd be harvesting from the scorpion) don't have a price tag.

So you could use this for infinite wealth in the same way that you could chop and sell wood for infinite wealth.

(Except with woood, I'd expect there to be more buyers and fewer legal repercussions.)

This is detailed in both Complete Adventurer and Book of Vile Darkness.

WildPyre
2010-05-06, 06:04 PM
So you're just upset about the profit? Then you should note that he plans to lower the sell price of the poison to something more reasonable.

He's the DM, he thinks it's cool, he will balance it, why is it so important to you that it gets banned?


First off you're missing my point. My point isn't "ZOMGWTF BAN IT! LULZ!". My point is "That item/spell doesn't work that way.". If the item DID work in that manner it would constitute a cost of well over 700gp.

I'm not demanding that it be banned, I'm offering my view, as a DM, on how this would work. If his DM is cool with it then that's their business, but if you come to a forum and ask a question like this, there will be people who will say "Sorry, doesn't work that way".


Secondly, and honestly a moot point but, where are you getting that he's the DM? He's asking about an action of his character, that would indicate he's a player.

Greenish
2010-05-06, 06:14 PM
Secondly, and honestly a moot point but, where are you getting that he's the DM?I honestly don't know. :smallfrown:

Zom B
2010-05-06, 06:40 PM
There's a craft check involved in making the usable poisons.

Having the raw source drops the price to make the marketable poison from 1/3 the base cost to 1/6th.

This makes sense. True, I can milk the scorpion but boiling it down correctly (note that the item "Large Scorpion Poison" uses the stats for a Huge Scorpion's poison, which signifies to me that it is processed to be thicker (to apply to a blade better) and more potent.) takes weeks of Craft checks until I can craft up that much.

Fortunately, I have max ranks in Gather Information, so maybe I can find a fence, but they'll likely want a cut, too. If I do this, I can see the DM not letting me have a full 200gp per batch at level 3.

Pluto
2010-05-06, 06:48 PM
This makes sense. True, I can milk the scorpion but boiling it down correctly ... takes weeks of Craft checks until I can craft up that much.
Oh! That's another quirk about the Poisoncrafting skill: every week's craft check measures the output in gp, rather than sp.

So if you roll a modified 25 on the DC 20 craft check for Large Scorpion venom, you create 500 gp worth of poison in that week (2.5 doses).

Akal Saris
2010-05-06, 06:49 PM
First off you're missing my point. My point isn't "ZOMGWTF BAN IT! LULZ!". My point is "That item/spell doesn't work that way.". If the item DID work in that manner it would constitute a cost of well over 700gp.

I'm not demanding that it be banned, I'm offering my view, as a DM, on how this would work. If his DM is cool with it then that's their business, but if you come to a forum and ask a question like this, there will be people who will say "Sorry, doesn't work that way".


Secondly, and honestly a moot point but, where are you getting that he's the DM? He's asking about an action of his character, that would indicate he's a player.

Actually, it could very well work that way and still have a price tag of 700g. For one thing, it could be cheaper and safer to make these amulets at that price than to stick your hand into a giant scorpion's urethra once a day. And at a normal price of 200g, it will take somebody who can reliable make the DC 20 check 7 days to make two doses of actual poison, even though he's got 11 doses of raw materials by then.

Also, a huge scorpion egg costs 2,000g per the A&E guide, and huge scorpions are strictly better than large ones in every way - so the amulet's cost isn't that out of line for a large scorpion. Though the unerrata'd version won me an arena contest once :P

The actual rules for this are in Drow of the Underdark, by the way. You need Vermin Empathy (from various vermin-themed PrCs) or the Vermin Trainer feat, and if I recall the vermin needs to have the skill trick for "bestow venom." However, since this is a summoned creature and obeys your commands, the DM could waive that requirement.

It's only a DC 15 Handle Animal check to do so, however, which is quite simple to make. I'd also require the PC to spend 1/6th of the cost in raw materials - stuff like special herbs and preservatives to keep the venom potent, etc. To make the poison itself after doing this is a second DC 15 Craft (Poisonmaking) check, rather than the usual DC 20 or higher check.

If anyone here wants to learn more about poisons in 3.5, please feel free to read my handbook. :smallbiggrin:

WildPyre
2010-05-06, 07:12 PM
Also, a huge scorpion egg costs 2,000g per the A&E guide, and huge scorpions are strictly better than large ones in every way - so the amulet's cost isn't that out of line for a large scorpion. Though the unerrata'd version won me an arena contest once :P


You also have to take in the fact that having an egg and having a full grown monsterous scorpion are two very different things... let along a monsterous scorpion that obeys your every command.

Eggs require care and time to hatch, time and training to raise, and still other checks in order to milk it.

Akal Saris
2010-05-06, 07:52 PM
That's a good point.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-06, 09:09 PM
You should take ranks in Profession (Gourmet Chef) and after you milk it, kill it and harvest it's meat. You could sell your exotic food to pretentious city folk, "Deep Fried Monstrous Scorpion-On-A-Stick" (cause everything tastes better on a stick.)

Thurbane
2010-05-06, 09:42 PM
A key point a couple of people have touched on, is that by RAI (and by RAW, I'm pretty sure), the milked poison would vanish at the same time the scorpion does.

...actually, that raises an interesting point: should ongoing poison damage from a summoned creature (i.e. the second save) still apply after it has vanished?

WildPyre
2010-05-06, 10:03 PM
I would rule that at that point it's become part of another creature, so poison that has become circulating in another creature's blood would stay.

This of course opens up the possibility of using summoned creatures to breed with a non summoned creature. (requiring of course that they can umm... get the job done, before the spell expires.)

Just how I would rule it of course.