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Agrippa
2010-05-06, 09:53 PM
...you gave him his vorpal bite and claws of sharpness (basically Fortitude saving throw on a critical hit or victim loses a random limb)? I;m just cuirious.

Eldariel
2010-05-06, 09:57 PM
Realistic CR where he'd actually be a challenge to a party of 4 including two spellcasters? 13-14 (in other words, facing him on 9-10 as campaign boss). CR by MM with those bonuses? 21.

Faleldir
2010-05-06, 10:07 PM
The Tarrasque's weakness is flight. If you want to make it harder, give it a breath weapon. Preferably radiant.

Eldariel
2010-05-06, 10:11 PM
The Tarrasque's weakness is flight. If you want to make it harder, give it a breath weapon.

That makes it too much like a magicless Dragon. I prefer Spine blasts á la Lavos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Chrono_Trigger#Lavos). And then make all its attacks magical and give it some relevant sensory abilities (so it isn't fumbling around with a 50% miss chance against friggin' Greater Invisibility...if it even manages to pinpoint the opponent).

At least give it scent, though it should frankly have Blindsight. And enough skill points in Spot to Spot something. And Trample-attack! Why doesn't it have one again? And a few immunities (such as Ability Drain, Drowning and Mind-Affecting...).

Mystic Muse
2010-05-06, 10:18 PM
At least give it scent

It has that actually.

Eldariel
2010-05-06, 10:21 PM
It has that actually.

Oh, true! Yay. Then give it 120' Blindsight. That's at least an improvement, though anything Superiorly Invisible still ****s it over.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-06, 10:22 PM
Oh, true! Yay. Then give it 120' Blindsight. That's at least an improvement, though anything Superiorly Invisible still ****s it over.

flight screws it over.

Eldariel
2010-05-06, 10:23 PM
flight screws it over.

As does a hundred other things. My last post outlined changes that would help it against many of those, including Flight + Windwall and other rudimentary defenses. Problem is, that's not any good unless it can detect its opponents somehow.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-06, 10:25 PM
Replace 20 magical beast HD with 20 levels in totemist.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-06, 10:28 PM
As does a hundred other things. My last post outlined changes that would help it against many of those, including Flight + Windwall and other rudimentary defenses. Problem is, that's not any good unless it can detect its opponents somehow.

Well, one thing I imagine would help it would be making it immune to a lot of wizard abilities, including the ones you outlined. He should also be immune to energy damage above a certain value so that the wizard can't simply end the battle by going Nova*.

*I don't actually know if this would work well. If not ignore me.

mikej
2010-05-06, 10:33 PM
The Tarrasque is one of my fav monsters. Soo I modified it one day when I was bored. Some of the things I added, including ironically the "sharpness" ability, were weird. I debated about flight but with some of the stuff I gave it I felt it would be too much.

Spike Volley: Gave it some range attacks just like the Manticore
True Sight: Constant "True Seeing" ability
Hyper Beam: Yes, Hyper Beam! Corny as it seems but the thought of the Tarrasque charging an energy blast was vastly amusing.

Ohh, and none of that only "one" exist stuff.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-06, 10:34 PM
At the very least, make it so it isn't horribly vulnerable to pretty much everything but direct damage.

Optimystik
2010-05-06, 10:37 PM
flight screws it over.

Also Plane Shift (lol)

Wonton
2010-05-07, 12:26 AM
The real question is, what would the Tarrasque's CR be if it had a flight speed of 100 ft? :smallamused:

awa
2010-05-07, 12:31 AM
In my personal opinion the trasq functions when the campaign puts it in certain situations. such as stop the rampaging ultimate monster before it gets to a town.
The pcs should not know what the trasq is capable so its huge array of immunities means they will have to try and figure out a way of hurting it becuase it has a huge number of defenses.

Second it's heading towards something their trying to protect so if they fly out of reach it just ignores them and heads towards the city.

and finally the party should be relatively low level say 16 or so for a final end boss encounter (vary based on optimization).

Are their tricks and techniques that can make this a non fight? Of course the game was play tested poorly.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-07, 12:39 AM
The Tarrasque's weakness is flight. If you want to make it harder, give it a breath weapon. Preferably radiant atomic.
Fixed it for you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zhJljblPcY)

Draz74
2010-05-07, 12:46 AM
Replace 20 magical beast HD with 20 levels in totemist.

I'm pretty sure that would bring it up beyond CR 20. Especially if it's allowed to intelligently re-pick the feats that it gets from Hit Dice.

Greenish
2010-05-07, 12:53 AM
In my personal opinion the trasq functions when the campaign puts it in certain situations. such as stop the rampaging ultimate monster before it gets to a town.
The pcs should not know what the trasq is capable so its huge array of immunities means they will have to try and figure out a way of hurting it becuase it has a huge number of defenses.

Second it's heading towards something their trying to protect so if they fly out of reach it just ignores them and heads towards the city.

and finally the party should be relatively low level say 16 or so for a final end boss encounter (vary based on optimization).

Are their tricks and techniques that can make this a non fight? Of course the game was play tested poorly.You could have a psywarr grapple the critter and carry it somewhere where the party can try out what stuff works and what doesn't.

The Tygre
2010-05-07, 12:54 AM
That makes it too much like a magicless Dragon. I prefer Spine blasts á la Lavos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_characters_in_Chrono_Trigger#Lavos). And then make all its attacks magical and give it some relevant sensory abilities (so it isn't fumbling around with a 50% miss chance against friggin' Greater Invisibility...if it even manages to pinpoint the opponent).


Cut out the middle man. Throw Lavos (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Brobdingnagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque) at them.

Eldariel
2010-05-07, 01:26 AM
The real question is, what would the Tarrasque's CR be if it had a flight speed of 100 ft? :smallamused:

You saw my list? That would solve flight, and leave you with:
- Invisibility
- Incorporeality
- Etherealness
- Superior Invisibility

Even if you give it the means to defeat those, there are still plenty of mid-level tools against it in:
- Walls of Force
- Solid Fogs
- Glitterdusts
- Greases

and generic tricks that enable you to negate its mobility to a sufficient degree, along with the actual killers:
- Plane Shift
- Control Water-type things
- Any Domination-effect
- Magic Jar
- Control Undead


Solving the tools that slow it down isn't necessary; it's only fair that it can be slower down. Having it so easy to avoid and destroy, though, isn't really alright. So those need to go if you want for it to truly challenge people.

Zaq
2010-05-07, 01:29 AM
The Tarrasque is the Monk of the Monster Manual. Very fluffy, very cool, looks overpowered if you're new to the system... and cries itself to sleep the moment a player picks up a spellbook.

J.Gellert
2010-05-07, 01:39 AM
The tarrasque should be built "in reverse". That is, it should be resistant to anything but direct damage, so the only way to kill it would be to go for a straight fight.

Maybe someplace where it cannot be one-shotted by a charge. :smalltongue:

Myou
2010-05-07, 02:22 AM
Disjunction breath.

It's roar becomes a sonic shockwave that destroys all spells in a cone ahead, suppreses items for 1d6 rounds, and deals something like 20d6 sonic damage or so.

Every 1d4 rounds.

That's not all it needs, but that would be a really cool and useful ability.

Runestar
2010-05-07, 02:59 AM
The real question is, what would the Tarrasque's CR be if it had a flight speed of 100 ft? :smallamused:

Still ~cr14. The tarrasque is simply a 1-trick pony with no spellcasting support, so even a 14th lv party can take it down with some coordination. Without abusing any stuff. With the fighter standing toe to toe and whacking it in melee. For instance, a slow spell reduces it to a pathetic 1 attack/round.

You may want to look at the gangrath in MM5, which seems like a more fun and effective version of the tarrasque.

Faleldir
2010-05-07, 03:22 AM
Fixed it for you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zhJljblPcY)
Yes, that was the joke. Congratulations. You killed it.

Killer Angel
2010-05-07, 05:53 AM
The Tarrasque is the Monk of the Monster Manual. Very fluffy, very cool, looks overpowered if you're new to the system... and cries itself to sleep the moment a player picks up a spellbook.

This could really be a good sig. :smallbiggrin:

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-07, 10:18 AM
The best use I've eer sen of the Tarasque was as a naion's secret ultimate weapon. It was only used if the s--- really hit the fan for them and the sent it out with their army (or what was left of it) so it was esentially a awesome tank protecting and distracting peope from the casters. I think it was also souped up and the nation's control gave it mind affecting immunity.

subject42
2010-05-07, 10:42 AM
This might be a bit of a derail, but what do you think of the Pathfinder Tarrasque?

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-t/tarrasque

Agrippa
2010-05-07, 12:09 PM
This might be a bit of a derail, but what do you think of the Pathfinder Tarrasque?

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-t/tarrasque

Give him vorpal teeth and claws of sharpness and call it a day.

Elfin
2010-05-07, 12:45 PM
This might be a bit of a derail, but what do you think of the Pathfinder Tarrasque?

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-t/tarrasque

I actually like that version a lot - as a matter of fact, I think that I'll use it from here on, with the addition of a vorpal bite and claws of sharpness, as suggested above.

senrath
2010-05-07, 12:47 PM
My only problem with the Pathfinder version is the whole "you can't kill it" part, although that's easily fixed. It's definitely an improvement over the standard version, at any rate.

Agrippa
2010-05-07, 01:05 PM
And how about if it looked like this?
http://arcona.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/tarrasque.png?w=291&h=300

Draz74
2010-05-07, 01:15 PM
This might be a bit of a derail, but what do you think of the Pathfinder Tarrasque?

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/bestiary/monster-lists-and-details/-t/tarrasque

Disclaimer: I'm not especially Pathfinder-literate. What, besides the Spines attack, is the big difference here?

I still notice a crucial lack of immunity to Ability Drain. Does Ability Drain no longer exist in PF?

senrath
2010-05-07, 01:29 PM
I'm pretty sure that immunity to ability damage in pathfinder also amounts to being immune to ability drain.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-07, 01:40 PM
And how about if it looked like this?
http://arcona.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/tarrasque.png?w=291&h=300
That's a neat picture, but it doesn't look like it's the size of a house. Giant, yes, but not mind breakingly huge. Also, it's a tad too anthropomorphic.

awa
2010-05-07, 03:53 PM
good old second edition

Runestar
2010-05-07, 05:08 PM
To me, the real challenge of a tarrasque (or any other monster for that matter) should not be on how to overcome its regeneration, but rather, how much of a threat it can pose to a party, and how much fun the party has fighting it over that 5 rounds.

That is partly why I find the current version (as well as the PF version) quite lame - it goes down readily enough in combat, only problem is getting the wish spell off (which actually costs the wizard more xp than he gets from defeating it!) or otherwise making sure it stays dead prior to lv17.

This is why I am liking the gangrath from MM5 more and more. It is not your dull, boring full-attacker as it has access to different attacks to add some variety to combat (start with a devastating roar, following by swallowing charge). It can also make more efficient use of the action economy as it only has 1 natural attack (albeit a fairly effective one), and so can move, bite and still fire off a prismatic spray each turn as a swift action. Multi-targetting attacks also let its damage output scale in tandem with the number of PCs in the party, without allowing it to concentrate all of them on a single player (and possibly resulting in instant death, which just isn't fun). :smallsmile:

Conversely, the tarrasque is too dependent on the full-attack action for the bulk of its damage output. Find some way to deny this (and the PCs likely will) and it becomes hardly a threat.

krossbow
2010-05-07, 05:20 PM
And how about if it looked like this?
http://arcona.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/tarrasque.png?w=291&h=300

I raise you

http://1d4chan.org/images/e/ed/Balloon_Tarrasque.png




But Generally, the only way to make the tarrasque a challenge is to give it the ability to literally break the universe, ala superboy punching reality.

Let him literally physically tear through dimensions/planes if he gets planeshifted to another one, the ability to just "refuse" magical effects that inconvenience it (I.E., your behind a Prismatic wall? the tarrasque roars in anger and shatters all magical effects in the area by pure rage), and a ranged attack such as spines.


However, this goes against the apparent intent of the tarrasque. The tarrasque is meant to be the king of pure meatshielding/melee. To start giving him anti-magic abilities, even primal type ones, raises him from just being a big dumb animal to something more.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-07, 05:25 PM
But Generally, the only way to make the tarrasque a challenge is to give it the ability to literally break the universe, ala superboy punching reality.

Let him literally physically tear through dimensions/planes if he gets planeshifted to another one, the ability to just "refuse" magical effects that inconvenience it (I.E., your behind a Prismatic wall? the tarrasque roars in anger and shatters all magical effects in the area by pure rage), and a ranged attack such as spines.

In other words, give it Iron Heart Surge?

Myou
2010-05-07, 05:25 PM
I raise you

http://1d4chan.org/images/e/ed/Balloon_Tarrasque.png




But Generally, the only way to make the tarrasque a challenge is to give it the ability to literally break the universe, ala superboy punching reality.

Let him literally physically tear through dimensions/planes if he gets planeshifted to another one, the ability to just "refuse" magical effects that inconvenience it (I.E., your behind a Prismatic wall? the tarrasque roars in anger and shatters all magical effects in the area by pure rage), and a ranged attack such as spines.


However, this goes against the apparent intent of the tarrasque. The tarrasque is meant to be the king of pure meatshielding/melee. To start giving him anti-magic abilities, even primal type ones, raises him from just being a big dumb animal to something more.

Hello? Who said disjunction breath? xD

A big dumb animal isn't a challenge, that's the problem with it.

JaronK
2010-05-07, 05:49 PM
I've always thought the Terrasque should have some kind of "inhale" attack that works like a breath weapon, except you must reflex save or be swallowed whole within a set range. That would give it a ranged attack that's dangerous, deal with invisibility/mirror image, and so on. Then give it Burrow and Swim speeds (since it's supposed to be unstoppable) combined with the ability to ignore hardness and DR with its attacks and the ability to burrow through any material, and some sort of "Dire Pounce" ability that works every X rounds and lets it jump an extremely long distance, doing a full attack at whatever it hits. Next, give it some ability to resist being teleported away. And finally, give it really solid perception abilities (Blindsense, Tremorsense, and maybe very short range Blindsight) so you can't just shut down its senses easily.

Having it able to burrow under ground to avoid air attacks and then jump up and pull someone out of the sky would make it a lot scarier. Also, it should be used in "you have to stop this thing" situations, not "you have to hunt it down" situations. Flying above it and pelting it for minor damage doesn't stop it from just attacking a city or whatever.

JaronK

Eldariel
2010-05-07, 05:59 PM
I actually like that version a lot - as a matter of fact, I think that I'll use it from here on, with the addition of a vorpal bite and claws of sharpness, as suggested above.

You may want to make it a bit tougher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7221238#post7221238). If anything, take PF Tarrasque's abilities and slam them on 3.5 Tarrasque. And then add some of the abilities mentioned, especially immunity to ability drain. Then you may have something capable of defeating a single Fighter 20.

krossbow
2010-05-07, 06:05 PM
You may want to make it a bit tougher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7221238#post7221238). If anything, take PF Tarrasque's abilities and slam them on 3.5 Tarrasque. And then add some of the abilities mentioned, especially immunity to ability drain. Then you may have something capable of defeating a single Fighter 20.


of course that's like saying you can take a cripple in a fight. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-05-07, 06:08 PM
of course that's like saying you can take a cripple in a fight. :smalltongue:

My point exactly. As it stands, it can't even take on a cripple in a fight.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-07, 06:11 PM
of course that's like saying you can take a cripple in a fight. :smalltongue:

What are you talking about? The tarrasque does perfectly well against monks.

Eldariel
2010-05-07, 06:12 PM
What are you talking about? The tarrasque does perfectly well against monks.

May I build the Monk? For the record, the Fighter pretending to be a Monk one-shot it.

Divide by Zero
2010-05-07, 06:17 PM
May I build the Monk? For the record, the Fighter pretending to be a Monk one-shot it.

Well, pretty much anything is possible with a sufficient degree of optimization. Also, I thought we established that fighters can generally out-monk the monk.

On an unrelated note, nothing in the tarrasque's description says what happens when you drop it to -10 from lethal damage. Hostile Empathic Transfer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm) explicitly ignores regeneration. Could you directly kill the tarrasque without Wish that way?

Lateral
2010-05-07, 06:29 PM
What are you talking about? The tarrasque does perfectly well against monks.

...

A toad does perfectly well against monks.

...

Allllright. Yeah, I've never been very impressed with the 3.5 tarrasque. It's not even epic level, it has no defense against ranged combat, spells, or flying, et cetera. I started D&D in 4e, and when I saw the tarrasque for 4e, I thought, 'this is EPIC!'. Not so much with the 3.5.
You could start by giving it something that works like the 4e version's earthbinding. That would solve one problem. Give it blindsight/blindsense, a vorpal bite, a climb, swim, and burrow speed, and some serious epicking, and you might have something.

Maybe make carapace all spells and deflects arrows. That way, the only way to kill it is to get up close.

krossbow
2010-05-07, 11:21 PM
Here's the question though: What IS the tarrasque to your group?




This is the same issue people have with fighters; Alot of people think of them as being defined by their mundanity (I.E., the tarrasque is a big melee thing that simply hits hard, same with fighter), and dislike adding Magical effects.


However, as shown, mundanity poses zero challenge in D&D; To REALLY make it a monster of legend, you basically have to start turning it into a magical collossus (as shown earlier with someone's statement on breath attacks however, the more you add to it, the more some people find its flavor altered). This requires significantly more of a backstory than a big pile of meat however.


On the note of tarrasques however, my group finds them being eldritch abomination type monsters to work perfectly well, and like spicing them up.

Amiel
2010-05-07, 11:41 PM
Give the tarrasque some form or variation of V/STOL, it can now hover and propel itself through the air (in a parody of flight); watch as wizards crap themselves.

If you really wish to play to the tarrasque's strengths and do not wish to design it as dragon-lite, you could have it radiate out an antimagic field. Alternatively, you could apply a disjunction effect to its claws, bite and its other means of combat (its tail?).

Dr.Epic
2010-05-07, 11:44 PM
...you gave him his vorpal bite and claws of sharpness (basically Fortitude saving throw on a critical hit or victim loses a random limb)? I;m just cuirious.

It wouldn't be too much higher considering its already so powerful. Now give those abilities to say a kobold...

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-08, 12:18 AM
Cut out the middle man. Throw Lavos (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Brobdingnagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque) at them.I could kill that with a level 1 wizard using a scroll of control undead to nab an allip. Check its touch attack AC.

krossbow
2010-05-08, 12:27 AM
Giving the tarrasque more size or vorpal claws is not the way to go about this. The tarrasque is designed, wholely and unapologetically, to be fought solo. As such, it must, above all else, be able to cover its weaknesses on its own, not rely so much on its strengths.



So you buff its melee damage up to the point where it can one shot a god in melee; Good for you, but no one with half a brain will close the distance then. They'll stay their distance and pick them off.

You give it the ability to fly or attack at range. Fine, but a mage will simply Plane shift it into oblivion or Outmaneuver it another way.


The tarrasque is designed as a boss monster; you have to start thinking like its one. List the ways that a Party could defeat it. Then DESTROY those methods. Give it abilities or moves that completely say "F*%& You" to Time honored tactics, and only then will it become a true godless killing machine.

FatR
2010-05-08, 01:31 AM
Tarrasque already pretty much kills anything it melees, save for highly optimized characters that break CR anyway. Getting to melee is a problem for it. It needs an ability like this:

Bottomless Maw (Su): The tarrasque can inhale the seemingly limitless amounts of air, creating mighty wind, that pulls things right to its maw. Any Large or smaller creature within a 360 feet-long cone must make a DC 42 Reflex save or be pulled to the tarrasque and automatically swallowed whole (see the effects below). The save DC is Constitution-based.

And immunities like this:
ability drain, bleeding, disease, energy drain, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, permanent wounds, petrification, poison, polymorph

Amiel
2010-05-08, 01:40 AM
Possibly also give the tarrasque limited aspects of divinity (specifically divine rank 0).

FatR
2010-05-08, 01:56 AM
Possibly also give the tarrasque limited aspects of divinity (specifically divine rank 0).
No. Just no. Deities and Demigods should just be forgotten entirely. It was horribly bad, and its very concept (adding yet another power tier on the game already known for insanely, world-breakingly high power level, with seemingly no other purpose, except to deprotagonize PCs) ensured that it cannot be anything but horribly bad.

Another thing I'm against is giving the tarrasque the defenses against being teleported/plane shifted somewhere else. Sealing away unkillable evils is the fantasy staple, and I believe that such things should be accomplished by actual powers available to PCs, instead of plot devices. Besides, unless you have uninhabitable planes no one cares about in your cosmology, their denizens will probably be pissed off by this surprise and soon will find someone who can planeshift the tarrasque back.

Thajocoth
2010-05-08, 02:18 AM
I raise you

http://1d4chan.org/images/e/ed/Balloon_Tarrasque.png

Looks to me more like you raise the Tarrasque. With a hot air balloon.

-----

The Tarrasque learned from his flight weakness since 3.5... In 4e Tarrasque has an anti-flight aura. Any flying creatures within 40 squares have their speed reduced to 1 and have a maximum altitude of 20', putting them within the Tarrasque's reach. It's also got blindsight (no range specified, so as far as it can see), immunity to charm & fear effects, resist 10 to all damage, a fast walking/climbing/burrow speed... And that's all before the attacks block of it's stats. It's a level 30 solo, and it looks like it would be a very difficult solo to fight.

trmptfnfr
2010-05-08, 02:23 AM
Cut out the middle man. Throw Lavos (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Brobdingnagian_Teratoid_Tarrasque) at them.

I can't help but notice that that's a tarrasque with 7 size increases.

You just made flight useless even without any means of making ranged attack, to fly over this thing they'll have to find a way to breathe in space.
Then again, at CR 1558 it BETTER have a mean to defend against flight.

FatR
2010-05-08, 02:40 AM
The Tarrasque learned from his flight weakness since 3.5... In 4e Tarrasque has an anti-flight aura. Any flying creatures within 40 squares have their speed reduced to 1 and have a maximum altitude of 20', putting them within the Tarrasque's reach. It's also got blindsight (no range specified, so as far as it can see), immunity to charm & fear effects, resist 10 to all damage, a fast walking/climbing/burrow speed... And that's all before the attacks block of it's stats. It's a level 30 solo, and it looks like it would be a very difficult solo to fight.
4E tarrasque has counters to (a few of) 3.5 tricks that were used to make it effortlessly easy, but to none to 4E tricks.

Dilb
2010-05-08, 02:51 AM
I could kill that with a level 1 wizard using a scroll of control undead to nab an allip. Check its touch attack AC.

You can kill an absolutely stupid number of things with an allip. You might even think that PC's weren't meant to have access to ability drain touch attacks with no save from an incorporeal creature. Clearly a ridiculous oversight leaving the allip off the list of creatures available from animate dead, create undead, and create greater undead.

Also, control undead has a duration of min/level, and Lavos has a reach of 2 miles, so I imagine there's a certain element of danger in pulling that off. Command undead lasts days/level, but requires opposed CHA checks to get it to do anything.

I think it's completely besides the point of the tarrasque to add a ranged attack or flying. It's a gigantic brawler monster, not yet another dragon. So let's fix up those weaknesses:

Add 20 wisdom, so will save is 30, spot and listen +27. Invisible creatures have a very good chance of being located, as spot and wis both locate the creature if they beat hide/move silently by 40. Add immunity to ability drain in case there are a bunch of allips around.

Add to carapace:
Any magical effect, spell, or spell like ability which is a ray, line, cone, or requires a touch attack, is deflected, with a 30% chance of being reflected.
The tarrasque is unmovable and unstoppable from outside forces. It can crash through walls of force, and is immune to teleportation, plane shift, and similar effects. The tarrasque is naturally buoyant, and can swim through water, lava, or acid with no ill effects. It can float unconscious in water, lava, or acid, and is able to breathe, until it regenerates enough to wake up.
If an unconscious tarrasque held under water/lava/acid, such as by weights, the tarrasque's regeneration is slowed to 1 hit point per year, and will not awaken until either a: it is fully healed, or b: its hit points are positive, and it suffers damage.

Add to Swallow whole:
Any unattended objects, except for artifacts, are subjected to disjunction while being digested.

Huge Limbs (ex)
The tarrasque's limbs are so large they ignore concealment and miss chance penalties for targets of size Huge or smaller, as the tarrasque simply hits everywhere near the target.

Swat (ex)
As a standard action, the tarrasque can attack everything within it's reach with it's claws, using it's full strength modifier (2 attacks +57 melee (1d12+17)). It can start a grapple as a free action against any or all the creatures it hits, so long as the attacking hand has space available. Each hand can hold 2 large creatures, 8 medium creatures, etc. A creature grappled by the first attack cannot be hit by the second attack.

Enhanced Scent (ex)
The tarrasque can detect creatures to 300 feat, and determines their approximate location, to within 30 feet. Things without a scent, such as objects, constructs, or illusions, are ignored as unimportant unless they do damage to the tarrasque.

Rush (ex)
Once a minute the tarrasque can move up to 300 feet horizontally, or leap 30 feet into the air (in a manner reminiscent of a whale leaping out of the water). It can move through all creatures in it's path so long as they are gargantuan or smaller. While leaping, it can use Swat at the apex of it's jump to hit things up to 100 feet above the ground (50 feet from the tarrasque + 20 feet reach + 30 feet jump). Any creature the tarrasque passes through is considered trampled (even if the creature was flying), taking 4d8+17 damage, reflex save DC 51 for half.

Burrow (ex)
The tarrasque can burrow through earth at 30 feet per round. Hard material, such as iron, slows it down to 20 feet per round. Adamantine slows it down to 10 feet per round.

Magical weapons (su)
The tarrasque's natural attacks are considered magical and can hit incorporeal creatures.

All right, what does the wizard do now to trivialize this?

krko
2010-05-08, 03:30 AM
The Tarrasque learned from his flight weakness since 3.5... In 4e Tarrasque has an anti-flight aura. Any flying creatures within 40 squares have their speed reduced to 1 and have a maximum altitude of 20', putting them within the Tarrasque's reach. It's also got blindsight (no range specified, so as far as it can see), immunity to charm & fear effects, resist 10 to all damage, a fast walking/climbing/burrow speed... And that's all before the attacks block of it's stats. It's a level 30 solo, and it looks like it would be a very difficult solo to fight.

You forgot to add that its attacks ignore all resistances

Sir Homeslice
2010-05-08, 03:33 AM
You forgot to add that its attacks ignore all resistances

Shame about the damage.

Amiel
2010-05-08, 04:30 AM
No. Just no. Deities and Demigods should just be forgotten entirely. It was horribly bad, and its very concept (adding yet another power tier on the game already known for insanely, world-breakingly high power level, with seemingly no other purpose, except to deprotagonize PCs) ensured that it cannot be anything but horribly bad.

In your opinion, which cannot be emphasised enough. While I didn't find it to be the pinnacle of perfection, I did like the concept; the execution on the other hand...
Also, there are other ways of playing the game you know.

You also misinterpret my suggestion; the tarrasque as parceled out is an epic level threat, or at least should be a threat to what its CR aspires to; given that wizards can make it cry, giving it the abomination subtype and shoring up its immunities or any other deficiencies is not inconceivably bad.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 04:39 AM
All right, what does the wizard do now to trivialize this?

Magic Jar works, as does Dominate Monster. True Mind Switch works. With its better Will-save, it takes more work (and thus preparation) to make it fail that, but it's still not immune so it's eminently doable. Also, Flight + FoD-spam until it rolls a 1 on Fort-save and Coup de Grace chain does at least keep it unconscious forever.

Also, it still has nothing on Gating Solar that bombards it with Arrows of Slaying until it rolls a 1 on a Fort-save. It can try to burrow away, but the Wizard doing the Gating (or the Solar itself for that matter; they cast as level 20 Clerics after all) can simply move sufficient amounts of ground away to keep Line of Sight.


It should be able to shoot spines outta its back. That's only stylish. It should get to do that as a free action too! Nothing magical, just awesome. And why doesn't it have Frightful Presence again? That's not a buff, but lacking it is just stupid. It's supposed to be the Big ****ing T. And it's not even scary? I guess WoTC had a sense of humor on these matters, in the end.

Amiel
2010-05-08, 04:47 AM
Not to mention its feat selection is rather suspect; who'd want to take Toughness 6 times?

Someway, somehow you need to give it a "I pity tha fool" SA or SQ

FatR
2010-05-08, 05:11 AM
You also misinterpret my suggestion; the tarrasque as parceled out is an epic level threat,
No. It is a parceled as someting a lvl 20 party should curbstomp with relatively little effort. So if you meant "epic" in the "EHL epic", not in the sense of actual gameplay post level 9-11 (which totally fits non-DnD definitions of epic), you're wrong.



or at least should be a threat to what its CR aspires to; given that wizards can make it cry, giving it the abomination subtype and shoring up its immunities or any other deficiencies is not inconceivably bad.
Wizards can make anything cry. Wizards break the CR system. No monsters can possibly measure up to a twinked-out high-level wizard who is played to the limit of its abilities, unless said monsters has full spellcasting of his own. Neither such wizard should be used as a measuring stick.
That doesn't mean it can't use some more defenses against the more common screw-yous of DnD. You might notice I mentioned them in my first post in this tread.

Amiel
2010-05-08, 05:18 AM
No. It is a parceled as someting a lvl 20 party should curbstomp with relatively little effort. So if you meant "epic" in the "EHL epic", not in the sense of actual gameplay post level 9-11 (which totally fits non-DnD definitions of epic), you're wrong.

CR doesn't mean what you think it means, also, read the rest of my sentence. For clarification, I meant epic in terms of its generic, non-gameplay definition.


Wizards can make anything cry. Wizards break the CR system. No monsters can possibly measure up to a twinked-out high-level wizard who is played to the limit of its abilities, unless said monsters has full spellcasting of his own. Neither such wizard should be used as a measuring stick.
That doesn't mean it can't use some more defenses against the more common screw-yous of DnD. You might notice I mentioned them in my first post in this tread.

Except where theoretical exercises do not translate to actual tabletop play; it's all well and good to theorise, but some DMs may not let any of the high-end hijinks to fly; in which case you're back to square one again.

Also, you might notice that my post is expanding on yours.
What do you mean by immunity to bleeding and permanent wounds? some form of DR x/-? this is mostly covered by regeneration.

FatR
2010-05-08, 05:26 AM
CR doesn't mean what you think it means, also, read the rest of my sentence.
It means exactly what I think it means. CR 20 = easy encounter for a level 20 party. At level 16 you should have a 50/50 chance of victory.


Except where theoretical exercises do not translate to actual tabletop play; it's all well and good to theorise, but some DMs may not let any of the high-end hijinks to fly; in which you're back to square one again.
Uh, are you now arguing that we shouldn't measure monsters monsters against high-level wizard hijinks? Why are you arguing then, as this is my position too?


Also, you might notice that my post is expanding on yours.
What do you mean by immunity to bleeding and permanent wounds? some form of DR x/-? this is mostly covered by regeneration.
No, bleeding wound that subract HPs every round are not covered by regeneration, as I just checked. And some of them never go away naturally.

lord_khaine
2010-05-08, 05:27 AM
It should be able to shoot spines outta its back. That's only stylish. It should get to do that as a free action too! Nothing magical, just awesome. And why doesn't it have Frightful Presence again? That's not a buff, but lacking it is just stupid. It's supposed to be the Big ****ing T. And it's not even scary? I guess WoTC had a sense of humor on these matters, in the end.

It doesnt need frightful presence, its a monster the size of a house, any sane person is going to run or hide.

(Do note that any adventurer who uses the "come on guys, we can take it" battle cry is no longer counted as sane)

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-08, 05:33 AM
Except where theoretical exercises do not translate to actual tabletop play; it's all well and good to theorise, but some DMs may not let any of the high-end hijinks to fly; in which case you're back to square one again.

PRACTICAL exercises do this.

A lot of people attribute theoretical charop to anything involving shapechange, or PaO. They cite familiarity, an offhand statement in the entry, and use it to attempt to justify disallowing anything that's not in your family tree, within 4 steps.

Theoretical charop generally involves things that boggle the mind. Level 9 spells at less than ECL 9. save DC's above 40. Damage in the 400-800 range.

Crazy stuff.

Amiel
2010-05-08, 05:39 AM
It means exactly what I think it means. CR 20 = easy encounter for a level 20 party. At level 16 you should have a 50/50 chance of victory.

Have a look at the definition for CR again; challenge rating as defined by the SRD is "[...]the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty."
Also, for clarification I've added what I mean by epic; hope that helps.


Uh, are you now arguing that we shouldn't measure monsters monsters against high-level wizard hijinks? Why are you arguing then, as this is my position too?

What do you mean? I've always been of that position; more to the point you were the one advocating for a "twinked-out" wizard as a measuring stick for monsters in absentia of spells or derivations. This is a false dichotomy.


No, bleeding wound that subract HPs every round are not covered by regeneration, as I just checked. And some of them never go away naturally.

Is it similar to the wounding enchantment?


PRACTICAL exercises do this.

A lot of people attribute theoretical charop to anything involving shapechange, or PaO. They cite familiarity, an offhand statement in the entry, and use it to attempt to justify disallowing anything that's not in your family tree, within 4 steps.

Theoretical charop generally involves things that boggle the mind. Level 9 spells at less than ECL 9. save DC's above 40. Damage in the 400-800 range.

Crazy stuff.

Thank you for misunderstanding, and I know what theoretical charop is, given that FatR used the words "twinked-out high-level wizard who is played to the limit of its abilities;" this is clearly not an example of practical charop in action.

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-08, 05:47 AM
Thank you for misunderstanding, and I know what theoretical charop is, given that FatR used the words "twinked-out high-level wizard who is played to the limit of its abilities;" this is clearly not an example of practical charop in action.

"played to the limit of its abilities" -I do this in every game I play. I play as well as I can. Anything the DM limits, is not an ability that you have.

In other words, in the phrase, "played to the limits"?

The "limits" is the DM you refer to.

And even in a DM controlled world, with abuses mitigated?

A level 3 spell punks a CR 20 creature.

To sum up? Even then theoretical charop is banned, you're not "back at square 1". You're at square 9 in a 10 square corridor.

Amiel
2010-05-08, 05:53 AM
You may be misunderstanding, or I may be; more clarification needed from FatR's end, the wording can be ambiguously interpreted.

I'm interpreting 'played to the limit' (singular as opposed to plural) as exactly that, played to the absolute limit of its ability or abilities; in other words, as well as possible, limits notwithstanding. You are very much abusing ring-gates, candles of invocation, or any other means here.

Limits introduces a completely new meaning.


Which level 3 spell would be able to punk which CR 20 creature? Rather curious here.

Which is why I've said that more than one play style exists; a play-style wherein one completely dominates the opponents is just one of many styles of play, and nowhere did I mention it was wrong. I, for example, like a collaborative group effort.
I meant 'back to square one' in terms of strategy, not options.

2xMachina
2010-05-08, 06:03 AM
Gestalt a Terrasque/dragon?

Nom any parties.

Runestar
2010-05-08, 06:13 AM
Heck, even a warlock could hover over a tarrasque indefinitely and keep spamming baleful polymorph until it fails its fort save...:smallcool:


Which level 3 spell would be able to punk which CR 20 creature? Rather curious here.

My guess is the infamous "shivering touch" spell, a 3rd lv spell which deals dex damage (and so would paralyze most foes with only a modest dex score).

And for starters, a tarrasque has a will save of only +20. Bearing in mind that a wizard can use limited wish to impose a -7 penalty, this means the tarrasque virtually autofails the next will-save-based effect targetting it, which can be dominate monster or imprisonment (better for the -4 penalty on saves, assuming you use vision or legend lore (replicated via limited wish to get around the long casting time). Binding could also be a viable alternative.

Reverse gravity can temporarily disable it without a save.

Or if you want collaborative effort, heightened slow instead. Irresistable dance (extended if possible) buys your fighters a few rounds of breathing space.

This is using a core-only wizard who doesn't abuse any chain-gating-solar or PAO nonsense. Just using the basic spells as they were meant to be used.

Where is the cheese now? :smallamused:

Otherwise, how exactly might you envision a "typical" fight between the tarrasque and a normal party?

Souhiro
2010-05-08, 06:14 AM
I think the only way to defeat the Lavos, non-epically talking, is with an ARMY of Lvl20 wizards, all of them dissintegrating the Lavos.

Since the Lavos has a TRUE ABISSAL touch AC with -1008, all of the attacks will impact. 1.500 Lvl 20 wizards (or sorcerers) dissintegrating at the same time the very same objetive would do 60.000 D6. If all of these D6 rolled 3... 180.000. It wouldn't be sufficient to kill that HUGE abomination!


Well... The Lavos dweels only in Epic Level Magic.
I think that we need to use an epic spell, like "Summon Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann", or "Use of Spiral Energy", or "Pact with Ryuuk for a Death Note"

PhoenixRivers
2010-05-08, 06:17 AM
You may be misunderstanding, or I may be; more clarification needed from FatR's end, the wording can be ambiguously interpreted.

I'm interpreting 'played to the limit' (singular as opposed to plural) as exactly that, played to the absolute limit of its ability or abilities; in other words, as well as possible, limits notwithstanding. You are very much abusing ring-gates, candles of invocation, or any other means here.

Limits introduces a completely new meaning.


Which level 3 spell would be able to punk which CR 20 creature? Rather curious here.

Which is why I've said that more than one play style exists; a play-style wherein one completely dominates the opponents is just one of many styles of play, and nowhere did I mention it was wrong. I, for example, like a collaborative group effort.
I meant 'back to square one' in terms of strategy, not options.

Played to those limits, there are no challenges in the game.
Played to those limits, you can have an army of 50,000 Solars at level 4.

I never assume this unless someone explicitly states it.

Why? Because saying that a character using rules exploits in the most exploitable ways turns this encounter into a chump?

Is like saying water is wet. The most appropriate response is, "Yeah, so?"

He stated limits of his abilities. He didn't state rules abuses and exploits. So I cannot, in good conscience, attribute that intent to him. With those, a level 5 commoner can call 10,000 Solars. It's not about wizard then, but abuse.

Nidogg
2010-05-08, 07:06 AM
It should be able to shoot spines outta its back. That's only stylish. It should get to do that as a free action too! Nothing magical, just awesome.

While my freind was making a Prc for a "Gun slayer" to kick in mellee for a modern campaign. They could sunder guns as a free action. When I pointed out that this means this guy could kill as may guns as he liked in a single round he changed to swift. Think of the action economy!!!! Attacks as free are dangerous. always.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 07:12 AM
While my freind was making a Prc for a "Gun slayer" to kick in mellee for a modern campaign. They could sunder guns as a free action. When I pointed out that this means this guy could kill as may guns as he liked in a single round he changed to swift. Think of the action economy!!!! Attacks as free are dangerous. always.

Yes, and Big T needs to be dangerous. Free action 1/round is only fair for a friggin' CR 20 monster with no swift action abilities or anything but single attack after movement.

true_shinken
2010-05-08, 07:45 AM
In my personal opinion the trasq functions when the campaign puts it in certain situations. such as stop the rampaging ultimate monster before it gets to a town.
The pcs should not know what the trasq is capable so its huge array of immunities means they will have to try and figure out a way of hurting it becuase it has a huge number of defenses.

Second it's heading towards something their trying to protect so if they fly out of reach it just ignores them and heads towards the city.

and finally the party should be relatively low level say 16 or so for a final end boss encounter (vary based on optimization).

Are their tricks and techniques that can make this a non fight? Of course the game was play tested poorly.
This.
You, sir, are my hero.



My guess is the infamous "shivering touch" spell, a 3rd lv spell which deals dex damage (and so would paralyze most foes with only a modest dex score).

Tarrasque is immune to ability damage.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 07:51 AM
This.
You, sir, are my hero.

That doesn't help it against being Dominated, etc. though.

true_shinken
2010-05-08, 07:56 AM
That doesn't help it against being Dominated, etc. though.

He has six toughness feats. You could simply use those to boost his spell resistance, his Will save or give him save re-rolls. Indomitable Will and Survivor's Luck alone already make him a lot more resistant to will effects.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 08:05 AM
He has six toughness feats. You could simply use those to boost his spell resistance, his Will save or give him save re-rolls. Indomitable Will and Survivor's Luck alone already make him a lot more resistant to will effects.

Which, I think, is where you should start with when changing him.

Emmerask
2010-05-08, 08:45 AM
In my personal opinion the trasq functions when the campaign puts it in certain situations. such as stop the rampaging ultimate monster before it gets to a town.
The pcs should not know what the trasq is capable so its huge array of immunities means they will have to try and figure out a way of hurting it becuase it has a huge number of defenses.

Second it's heading towards something their trying to protect so if they fly out of reach it just ignores them and heads towards the city.

and finally the party should be relatively low level say 16 or so for a final end boss encounter (vary based on optimization).

Are their tricks and techniques that can make this a non fight? Of course the game was play tested poorly.

very true :smallsmile:

krossbow
2010-05-08, 10:21 AM
tarrasque no longer fails a save on a one.

awa
2010-05-08, 10:50 AM
i like the no failed saved on a one.
But i would also point out that the trasq hit dice are so high only a heavily optimized character will ever know all his weakness so on average the wizards going to come into this battle with a spell list full of things the trasq is immune too and while hes wasting his actions watching enervation bounce off the trasq is eating any one on the ground and maybe even pulling a low flying character out of the air who underestimates his reach and jumping ability.
then he starts throwing trees at the party and if the wizards lucky hes figured out a way to affect this giant monster.

Sure an alip can affect the trasq but that requires you to first find and control the alip and realize the trasq is vulnerable to this particular affect.

2xMachina
2010-05-08, 11:14 AM
Can't you just summon one?

Thajocoth
2010-05-08, 11:21 AM
You forgot to add that its attacks ignore all resistances


And that's all before the attacks block of it's stats.

It's in the attacks block. Along with a close blast bite attack and other nastiness...

gdiddy
2010-05-08, 11:32 AM
Older Than the Arcane (Ex) -
A Terrasque is a primordial creature that is older than dragons, gods, and magic. It is made of substances that reminds the world around it of a time without magic. Any attempt to affect the field causes the offending creature to be squirted out of the plane like a watermelon seed.

The Terrasque is the center of a 1,280' radius Antimagic Field. Salient Divine Abilities are likewise negated, as if the deity were at the base of the Spire in the Outlands. Anything that would normally be able to stop an Anti-Magic Field has no effect. Instead, Plane Shift the person trying to bring down the field to a random plane.

This ability can only be negated by bringing down the field from it's exact center, the interior of the Terrasque's stomach. The player is still plane shifted to a random plane (usually Astral).

---

Remove one of its Toughness feats, and replace it with: Hold the Line


And now the Terrasque is scary for everyone.
:smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 11:44 AM
Older Than the Arcane (Ex) -
A Terrasque is a primordial creature that is older than dragons, gods, and magic. It is made of substances that reminds the world around it of a time without magic. Any attempt to affect the field causes the offending creature to be squirted out of the plane like a watermelon seed.

The Terrasque is the center of a 1,280' radius Antimagic Field. Salient Divine Abilities are likewise negated, as if the deity were at the base of the Spire in the Outlands. Anything that would normally be able to stop an Anti-Magic Field has no effect. Instead, Plane Shift the person trying to bring down the field to a random plane.

This ability can only be negated by bringing down the field from it's exact center, the interior of the Terrasque's stomach. The player is still plane shifted to a random plane (usually Astral).

---

Remove one of its Toughness feats, and replace it with: Hold the Line


And now the Terrasque is scary for everyone.
:smallbiggrin:

Archers on flying mounts/with natural flying? But this is a sorta bad idea, just because it makes Big T practically impossible to kill for most normal parties (you need a real Archer-build to be able to efficiently overcome the DR 15/Epic and Regeneration 40 without magic), as without magic Fighter-types are dead vs. it in few rounds and casters have major trouble incinerating it from 1200' out with no-SR non-touch attack spells.

gdiddy
2010-05-08, 11:56 AM
You're resorting to using archery? Its already working.

It cant deal with a shroedinger party. But it will take specific tactics and original thinking to bring it down.

2xMachina
2010-05-08, 12:11 PM
Orbital nuke it with Shrink item Boulders.

gdiddy
2010-05-08, 12:22 PM
Thats effective against everything.

true_shinken
2010-05-08, 01:10 PM
Sure an alip can affect the trasq but that requires you to first find and control the alip and realize the trasq is vulnerable to this particular affect.
The tarrasque is immune to ability damage. An allip has nothing on him.
An don't you 'it's drain, not damage' me, young man. The tarrasque is immune to ability damage and energy drain, it obviously was not intended for him to be vulnerable to ability drain.
About flying enemies, with rush and a +17 strenght modifier, a tarrasque has a +65 Jump modifier once a minute. That is not a threat for a flying wizard approaching, but it is for one trying to get clear - tarrasque jumps about 17 feet up with a 1 and has 20ft reach, enough to jump and grapple a wizard that has just cast fly and is trying to open space to perform his normal tactics.

Flickerdart
2010-05-08, 01:16 PM
The tarrasque is immune to ability damage. An allip has nothing on him.
Allip inflicts Ability Drain, which is distinct from Ability Damage.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 01:21 PM
You're resorting to using archery? Its already working.

It cant deal with a shroedinger party. But it will take specific tactics and original thinking to bring it down.

No, I'm pointing out that you're making it way more than CR 20 for most parties, while being completely worthless against one specific character. That, my friend, is poor encounter design. I can come up with few means to overcome that as a spellcaster (mainly because AMF is an emanation and thus you can simply block line of effect to cast without trouble; you won't get planeshifted if you're right there), but overall, your average party is in for a TPK.

Casters can't support, melee can't fight; it's not a challenging encounter, it's an impossible encounter unless you happen to have a high-powered Archer-build or creative casters along. Your melee won't really be able to beat it without magic pretty much no matter what (well, ok, some more extreme things like well-built Frenzied Berserker or Hulking Hurler could, but you can't expect those to be around...) and your average spellcaster isn't going to be able to relevantly affect it. Basically, you are overdoing it unless you intend to increase its CR.


And yeah, as said, the Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) has immunity to Ability Damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged), but not Ability Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDrained), which is what Allip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm) causes.

gdiddy
2010-05-08, 01:47 PM
Basically, you are overdoing it unless you intend to increase its CR.


Well, yeah. He's supposed to be a one of a kind, era-ending monster. He'd be listed as CR 20, but he'd have the invisible "Awesome" Template, just like Dragons, that let's Wizard list them as much lower than their actual CR.

A Frenzied Berzerker could beat him. A ridiculously well-built archer on a pegasus might too, but DR and rejuv both eat arrows. A resourceful caster. Or a Warblade or caster that can survive getting swallowed could break the AMF. Failing that, making him expend his AoEs and getting in ubercharger shots could do it.

But it would require creativity and definitely challenge an optimized high-tier party.

Of course, any uber-killer could get him. Orbital rock shrinking, hundreds of raptorans armed with acid releasing it over him. 20 1st level assassins could statistically kill him.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 02:12 PM
Well, yeah. He's supposed to be a one of a kind, era-ending monster. He'd be listed as CR 20, but he'd have the invisible "Awesome" Template, just like Dragons, that let's Wizard list them as much lower than their actual CR.

Yeah, but Dragons are tough, but beatable; that'd be a...well, far more tough and far less beatable on average.


A Frenzied Berzerker could beat him.

Due to being immortal, yes.


A ridiculously well-built archer on a pegasus might too, but DR and rejuv both eat arrows.

Eternal Blade uses Guided Shot; it's simple enough. It's also possible to just overcome it with damage, but consistently dealing over 40 damage a turn through DR 15/- makes it hard for standard Fighter Archer-types.


A resourceful caster. Or a Warblade or caster that can survive getting swallowed could break the AMF.

His Gizzard deals constant damage, which makes casting spells inside him quite difficult; the concentration-check is quite hard. Warblade may be able to, though.


Failing that, making him expend his AoEs and getting in ubercharger shots could do it.

Most of those do diddly squat from over 1000' without magic which causes some issues. Yes, getting übercharger to connect would do it, but übercharger is a TO build, not a standard party member.


But it would require creativity and definitely challenge an optimized high-tier party.

Mostly, it'd be a die roll; do you happen to have the right character or are you ****ed? It's too specialized to be a viable encounter as such.


Of course, any uber-killer could get him. Orbital rock shrinking, hundreds of raptorans armed with acid releasing it over him. 20 1st level assassins could statistically kill him.

20 1st level assassins wouldn't be able to kill him simply because there's the attack roll involved in death attack too. And the whole "gotta stay hidden"-part.

Roderick_BR
2010-05-08, 02:27 PM
Well, one thing I imagine would help it would be making it immune to a lot of wizard abilities, including the ones you outlined. He should also be immune to energy damage above a certain value so that the wizard can't simply end the battle by going Nova*.

*I don't actually know if this would work well. If not ignore me.
Actually, his carapace can resist energy, and even redirect it against the caster, so blasters are nearly (even more)useless against the Tarraske. Nice job, WotC.

krossbow
2010-05-08, 03:22 PM
The ironic thing is, you want this thing to encourage blasting/melee against him.

You want him to be ridiculously tough in melee, but, ironically, only defeatable in that way. He needs to be able to counter Tricks such as planeshift/flight/invisibility/save or die. The tarrasque needs to just get Angrier the more of that cheese that gets thrown at him, with methods for shattering such things apart, leaving you no choice but to get nitty gritty with him.


Now, i don't like the Anti-magic field idea though; Just remove magic from your setting if thats your goal, but making magic have no effect against him is just heavy handed. There should be some benefit to having a caster on your side.

In short, give the tarrasque the ability to fling spines, tear through planes, Ability damage REGENERATION, Sense invisibility, Never fail on a one, and the ability to Disjunction an area once every XdX rounds.
On the flip side, tone back his blasty/melee defenses/offenses slightly.

gdiddy
2010-05-08, 03:30 PM
It's too specialized to be a viable encounter as such.


I suppose. I'd like to run it, though, just to see what people come up with to beat it.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 03:54 PM
I suppose. I'd like to run it, though, just to see what people come up with to beat it.

Builds, would be rather easy. The aforementioned Eternal Blade Archer could reach 1d10+7 Str+4 Spec+3 Knowledge Devotion+3 Int or average 22.5 per arrow rather consistently, pumping out ~6-12 arrows per turn and being able to penetrate DR, while improving accuracy as necessary (also having quite decent base accuracy; ~10 Dex, 20 BAB, 3 K Dev, 3 Focus, 3 Int at -4 or so). It would take a while, but as this doesn't require any consumables, Big T would come down eventually.

If having to do it with ready characters and not happening to play one of those or an FB, it'd be a lot harder as any melee going near it would just get torn to bits, casters would need Long-range no SR damage dealers to actually do anything (or using total cover + area effects, which is more plausible but has the annoying requirement of "needing to break line of effect") and standard martials are just rather ****ed overall. Well, Ex Hide in Plain Sight-guy (Wilderness Rogue, for example) could probably just snipe it dead as it has **** for Spot or Listen and Scent is thwarted by Darkstalker, and SA works just fine on it; 10d6+20 per shot is, again, more than enough to eventually bring it down.


But...yeah, it's something more suited for a higher level party as with the stats given, it's not really viable to beat it head-on, but you have to "solve" it to beat it. If you give Big T lots of immunities, ability to somehow just engage flying/ethereal/incorporeal opponents, better perception and probably few more feats/such, and you can make it a threat where casters are best off playing support with melee punching the face in.

Dilb
2010-05-08, 04:28 PM
Magic Jar works, as does Dominate Monster. True Mind Switch works. With its better Will-save, it takes more work (and thus preparation) to make it fail that, but it's still not immune so it's eminently doable. Also, Flight + FoD-spam until it rolls a 1 on Fort-save and Coup de Grace chain does at least keep it unconscious forever.

What do you think is a normal INT mod, anyway? 18 base + 5 + 5 + 6 = 12 mod, which means Dominate monster has a DC of 10 + 9 + 12 = 31. Do you really expect to cast half a dozen level 9 spells in dealing with a CR 20 encounter? Even with a limited wish to soften him up he has better than even odd of not being affected.

Similarly, magic jar is not that likely to work, and the tarrasque has a really good chance of finding the body and eating it in the meantime.


Also, it still has nothing on Gating Solar that bombards it with Arrows of Slaying until it rolls a 1 on a Fort-save. It can try to burrow away, but the Wizard doing the Gating (or the Solar itself for that matter; they cast as level 20 Clerics after all) can simply move sufficient amounts of ground away to keep Line of Sight.


It should be able to shoot spines outta its back. That's only stylish. It should get to do that as a free action too! Nothing magical, just awesome. And why doesn't it have Frightful Presence again? That's not a buff, but lacking it is just stupid. It's supposed to be the Big ****ing T. And it's not even scary? I guess WoTC had a sense of humor on these matters, in the end.

They do have frightful presence.
If you're reduced to gating in a solar, it's really not reasonable to think the tarrasque should survive that. Also, what is the wizard doing exactly, to stop it from burrowing away? I don't recall any greater move earth spell.

But fine, let's add the tarrasque doesn't automatically fail saves on a 1. No more finger of death or arrow of slaying spam, and will saves from spells below level 7 require some way to soften him up first.

Also, please remember what carapace does: blocks rays, lines, cones, magic missile (and things requiring touch attacks by my changes). It doesn't block:
energy substituted fireball
ice storm
freezing sphere
chain lighting
acid fog
horrid wilting
energy substituted incendiary cloud
energy substituted meteor swarm

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 04:46 PM
What do you think is a normal INT mod, anyway? 18 base + 5 + 5 + 6 = 12 mod, which means Dominate monster has a DC of 10 + 9 + 12 = 31. Do you really expect to cast half a dozen level 9 spells in dealing with a CR 20 encounter? Even with a limited wish to soften him up he has better than even odd of not being affected.

Similarly, magic jar is not that likely to work, and the tarrasque has a really good chance of finding the body and eating it in the meantime.

We are now assuming a level 20 Wizard, so there are about a hundred reasons the body won't be found (most involving Tarrasque not being capable of planar travel), but that's besides the point. A Wizard can pull out PAO for much, much higher Int (base Sarrukh-form for 30, 5 levels, 5 inherent, 6 item, 1 age for 48) if so desired, though that falls on the wrong side of "PAO is bad, mmmkay?" Greater Spell Focus could add +2 too, though that's unlikely. Spell Focus is plausible due to being Archmage entry requirement though. Either way though, let's assume we aren't willing to add mind-affecting immunity for whatever reason; alright, give it Steadfast Determination at least so it'll have Con to Will-saves. That'll make life much easier, already. And casting 20 spells if it means you get a nigh' immortal body doesn't really seem like a bad trade to me.


They do have frightful presence.
If you're reduced to gating in a solar, it's really not reasonable to think the tarrasque should survive that. Also, what is the wizard doing exactly, to stop it from burrowing away? I don't recall any greater move earth spell.

Cast a spell such as Limited Wish or Miracle replicating Move Earth, to override the casting time. Alternatively, just use Undermaster [SC].


But fine, let's add the tarrasque doesn't automatically fail saves on a 1. No more finger of death or arrow of slaying spam, and will saves from spells below level 7 require some way to soften him up first.

Good. I'm still not understanding why it's not shooting spines outta its back. Dragons don't do that. Big T being non-magical is the big thing and there's nothing magical about ranged attacks.


Also, please remember what carapace does: blocks rays, lines, cones, magic missile (and things requiring touch attacks by my changes). It doesn't block:
energy substituted fireball
ice storm
freezing sphere
chain lighting
acid fog
horrid wilting
energy substituted incendiary cloud
energy substituted meteor swarm

But really, what does any of that matter? It's much less economical to start using mediocre attack spells than just making it fail saves (until they truly get superpumped).

Dilb
2010-05-08, 05:35 PM
We are now assuming a level 20 Wizard, so there are about a hundred reasons the body won't be found (most involving Tarrasque not being capable of planar travel), but that's besides the point. A Wizard can pull out PAO for much, much higher Int (base Sarrukh-form for 30, 5 levels, 5 inherent, 6 item, 1 age for 48) if so desired, though that falls on the wrong side of "PAO is bad, mmmkay?" Greater Spell Focus could add +2 too, though that's unlikely. Spell Focus is plausible due to being Archmage entry requirement though. Either way though, let's assume we aren't willing to add mind-affecting immunity for whatever reason; alright, give it Steadfast Determination at least so it'll have Con to Will-saves. That'll make life much easier, already. And casting 20 spells if it means you get a nigh' immortal body doesn't really seem like a bad trade to me.

Obviously any encounter with a high level wizard assumes the wizard doesn't just run away. And PAO to get an INT increase is so clearly cheese you might as well just start using things like rings of permanent true strike.


Cast a spell such as Limited Wish or Miracle replicating Move Earth, to override the casting time. Alternatively, just use Undermaster [SC].

Move earth is not nearly powerful enough to stop a burrowing creature though. It only affects the top 10 feet of the earth.


Good. I'm still not understanding why it's not shooting spines outta its back. Dragons don't do that. Big T being non-magical is the big thing and there's nothing magical about ranged attacks.

I just don't like the idea of a huge monster still needing to shoot stuff. It's purpose, dominant strategy, and joie de vivre, is hitting stuff and eating stuff.


But really, what does any of that matter? It's much less economical to start using mediocre attack spells than just making it fail saves (until they truly get superpumped).

Chain lightning can hit for ~70 damage, which is a significant help if other people are trying to hit it to death.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-08, 05:43 PM
How about acid fog + maw of chaos? Add in dust of sneezing and choking, and that thing's going down.

And if you want to give it a ranged attack or three, either a breath attack of acid & poison (counts as both, and immunity to both must be present or a target gets the full effect). It's a spread, both a 100' cone and a 1000' line, and deals both Con damage and acid damage (Fort for half on both). Also give it a giant's ability to hurl boulders and trees that it tears from the earth. It also has a sonic roar that deafens and deals sonic damage in a 60' spread around it, and has an additional +30 to Jump checks (and isn't penalized for standing jumps), is immune to ability drain and [mind-affecting] effects and those that destroy or affect the soul (since it's a soulless abomination).

Along with Heavy Fortification and a lot of different feats, as well as amphibiousness and a flat 50% chance for spell fizzle-ization (rather than plain-Jane SR), this should give it some real oomph.

Mikeavelli
2010-05-08, 06:44 PM
Allip inflicts Ability Drain, which is distinct from Ability Damage.

From the Tarrasque Entry:


The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability.


Since Ability drain is incurable (in the same sense as Mummy Rot), this clause renders the Tarrasque immune to Ability Drain according to RAW.

Flickerdart
2010-05-08, 06:50 PM
From the Tarrasque Entry:



Since Ability drain is incurable (in the same sense as Mummy Rot), this clause renders the Tarrasque immune to Ability Drain according to RAW.
The Allip does not produce wounds; it is a purely mental affliction and drain. Mummy Rot damages CON, incurable as the disease might be.

Mikeavelli
2010-05-08, 06:54 PM
The Allip does not produce wounds; it is a purely mental affliction and drain. Mummy Rot damages CON, incurable as the disease might be.

You are, quite simply, wrong. Factually incorrect. There's nothing more I can say.

Points lost due to Ability Drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) are permanent.

The Tarrasque is immune to effects that cause permanent wounds.

Flickerdart
2010-05-08, 06:58 PM
You are, quite simply, wrong. Factually incorrect. There's nothing more I can say.
Then we shall remain at odds.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-08, 07:15 PM
I can see a lot of problems with the Lavos teratoid tarrasque.

One, it's not immune to ability drain. Or a lot of other things. It has a high AC, sure, and it has massive saves, lots of hp, and regeneration out the wazoo. However, there are ways to circumvent all of these (an 11th level factotum, for instance, and any archmage with Supernatural Transformation, is going to completely ignore its SR, allowing for all sorts of possible shenanigans; tainted scholars and any caster with Persisted/Extended consumptive field - and a commoner with Quick Draw and Infested With Chickens - can have NI caster levels, if they want it; illumian cancer mages will have NI to their spells' saves; shrink item bombardments are gonna put this thing into negatives, if you prep well enough; and so on).

Two, even with a +100 modifier to both Listen and Spot, and a 2 mile reach, it still takes a penalty to Spot and Listen for every 10' between it and its potential victims (and being that tall, it's gonna take a lot of penalties). Plus, unless it's on a featureless flat plane, or on the plane of air or water, or dealing with fliers, it's going to very likely have to deal with cover and full concealment against just about everything it attacks (since they'd have to be within a few hundred feet). This means it'd be fairly easy to be pretty close when sending, say, allips against it. With a Wisdom of 14, it's going down in less than a minute, and then you can do whatever you feel you can get away with against it (granted, not gonna be that much unless you pull some other dirty tricks, such as getting it to willingly touch a REALLY expensive trap the soul gem).

Three, it's still affected by random things, such as dust of sneezing and choking (which, granted, screws over EVERYTHING).

Four, it still misses saves on critical 1s.

And that's just a very small number; I'm sure I can think of more.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 07:44 PM
Obviously any encounter with a high level wizard assumes the wizard doesn't just run away. And PAO to get an INT increase is so clearly cheese you might as well just start using things like rings of permanent true strike.

*shrug* No, it's a use of a spell as written. Ring of Permanent True Strike, on the other hand, is a custom magic item which does not exist by RAW. In RAWland, PAO into higher Int form is par de course. I'll give you though, it's very likely to be ruled out, but just pointing out that 38 (20 Gray Elf + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 item + 2 age on a fast time plane; at this level, you can afford to eat up the penalties already) is hardly a hard cap there.


Move earth is not nearly powerful enough to stop a burrowing creature though. It only affects the top 10 feet of the earth.

It can, however, quickly dig up a burrowing creature. Widen it as necessary; 20' helps, already.


I just don't like the idea of a huge monster still needing to shoot stuff. It's purpose, dominant strategy, and joie de vivre, is hitting stuff and eating stuff.

*shrug* It's stuck forever a loser unless it can somehow darken the skies.


Chain lightning can hit for ~70 damage, which is a significant help if other people are trying to hit it to death.

Sure, but you can do so, so much more. If you have multiple guys beating on it, you're much better off keeping those guys alive than hitting Big T for paltry 70 damage when your beaters have no difficulty clocking 200 per turn. Stopping Big T from taking efficient attack actions, be it with Wall-effects, Solid Fogs or whatever (something you can clear on your turn easily again), should be a priority.

Because unless your Fighters are capable of winning the beatdown fest without your help, they won't win it with your blasting help either. Wizards are sorry-ass damage dealers without piling on metamagic, and Fighters are squishy if not protected with magicks.


You are, quite simply, wrong. Factually incorrect. There's nothing more I can say.

It's more trauma than wound. Indeed, nowhere have I seen D&D use the term "wound" for anything but damage. And it's not damage. It's drain. Wounding invariably refers to either HP damage or Con-damage and this is neither. As such, I'd like to see some RAW backup for your claims if you are going to cling to them so tightly.

Find some passage which supports your reading of mental ability drain as "wound" of any form. Find some definition for that in any D&D book, and there'll be something to discuss. Otherwise it's just yet another house rule thrown around casually.

Mikeavelli
2010-05-08, 08:11 PM
It's more trauma than wound. Indeed, nowhere have I seen D&D use the term "wound" for anything but damage. And it's not damage. It's drain. Wounding invariably refers to either HP damage or Con-damage and this is neither. As such, I'd like to see some RAW backup for your claims if you are going to cling to them so tightly.

Find some passage which supports your reading of mental ability drain as "wound" of any form. Find some definition for that in any D&D book, and there'll be something to discuss. Otherwise it's just yet another house rule thrown around casually.

The explicitly defined Mummy Rot affects both CON and CHA. - A mental Stat.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 08:18 PM
The explicitly defined Mummy Rot affects both CON and CHA. - A mental Stat.

It is also explicitly ability damage, not drain.

Mikeavelli
2010-05-08, 08:21 PM
It also causes ability damage, not drain.

and ability drain is incurable.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 08:24 PM
and ability drain is incurable.

Technically it's perfectly curable, it just doesn't cure by itself. More to the point, though, it's not damage which is the crux of the point here.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-08, 08:25 PM
and ability drain is incurable.But in this case is not the result of a wound.

Mikeavelli
2010-05-08, 08:26 PM
Mummy Rot is also perfectly curable, but it doesn't cure itself. Just like Ability Drain.

Here's my logic, since this has gotten drawn out.

1. The Tarrasque is immune to any incurable wounds.

2. Ability Drain is "Incurable."

3. Ability Drain is also a "Wound."

Therefore, The Tarrasque is immune to Ability Drain.

Eldariel
2010-05-08, 08:28 PM
Mummy Rot is also perfectly curable, but it doesn't cure itself. Just like Ability Drain.

Not the same; Mummy Rot actively resist curing, just like Cursed Wound and such. However, ability drain is automatically cured whenever appropriate effect is applied. However, as previously stated this is ultimately trivial.


Here's my logic, since this has gotten drawn out.

1. The Tarrasque is immune to any incurable wounds.

2. Ability Drain is "Incurable."

3. Ability Drain is also a "Wound."

Therefore, The Tarrasque is immune to Ability Drain.

And that's where I fail to see support for your claims. There's no definition for ability drain as "wound" or "damage". Indeed, it's specifically a separate entity from "ability damage".

olentu
2010-05-08, 08:48 PM
Mummy Rot is also perfectly curable, but it doesn't cure itself. Just like Ability Drain.

Here's my logic, since this has gotten drawn out.

1. The Tarrasque is immune to any incurable wounds.

2. Ability Drain is "Incurable."

3. Ability Drain is also a "Wound."

Therefore, The Tarrasque is immune to Ability Drain.

A question are you saying that all things that are "incurable" are automatically wounds.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-08, 08:50 PM
Mummy Rot is also perfectly curable, but it doesn't cure itself. Just like Ability Drain.

Here's my logic, since this has gotten drawn out.

1. The Tarrasque is immune to any incurable wounds.

2. Ability Drain is "Incurable."

3. Ability Drain is also a "Wound."

Therefore, The Tarrasque is immune to Ability Drain.

People seem to be having problems with 3. All other wounds damage a physical stat (usually Constitution and possibly have additional effects e.g. Mummy Rot damaging Charisma). An Allip drains a mental stat (and does nothing more). It's not a bad houserule but immunity to ability drain wasn't given to the Tarrasque and under your reading it effectively has it anyway, it would have been clearer and more sensible to put it with the rest of the specific immunities. Ability drain does not seem much like a wound, using game terms or not. In summary they did not give it specific immunity, an example of ability drain in the immunity you quoted or any other indication that the Tarrasque was not meant to be defeated using such means so it can be assumed that this was one intended path to victory.

Edit: Ninjas have made my first sentence redundant.