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Kiero
2010-05-07, 08:01 AM
I'm going to be playing a Fighter in an upcoming Planescape game. The concept is thus: ex-Sergeant and veteran of many battles, who acts as a mobile roadblock in a fight. Visually, he uses a pair of longswords in an "one is offensive, one is defensive" style. Mechanically he's a sword-and-board Guardian, though he uses a weaponshield.

We're a four-PC party, and will have all the roles covered. I got Defender this time (last time I was Striker with a melee Ranger). The only other character we're vaguely sure of at this point is a (probably Wemic) melee Cleric.

Some red lines so people are clear, the following are non-negotiable:

I only play humans, this character will be human.
I want to play a Fighter, none of the other Defender options appeal.
I am well aware of the trade-offs I've made in my ability score choices. They will not change. I do not dump stats, and a starting 18 isn't worth the cost as far as I'm concerned.
I will not have a character who uses double-weapons or spiked shields.
I am not considering a shift to a lightly-armoured straight-up two-weapon combatant.
We probably won't level up in the short run of the game, so anything that's based on getting better in a couple of levels time is probably a waste of time.


What I would appreciate commentary and advice on is my Feat and Powers choices. I've notionally gone thus so far:



level 8
Human, Fighter
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
Background: Aglarond (Aglarond Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 25 Fort: 23 Reflex: 21 Will: 20
HP: 76 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +12, Perception +13, Endurance +9, Athletics +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +7, History +4, Insight +7, Intimidate +4, Nature +7, Religion +4, Stealth +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +4

FEATS
Human: Action Surge
Level 1: Toughness
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Shield Push
Level 6: Against All Odds
Level 8: Battle Hardened

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Bristling Defense
Fighter utility 2: Full Extension
Fighter encounter 3: Probing Attack
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Snagging Grip
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It

ITEMS
Magic Scale Armor +2, Fighting Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Magic Longsword +2, Amulet of Protection +2, Magic Javelin +2


Magic items are placeholders right now, I'm hoping for a houserule in my favour for an enchanted fighting shield.

I'm fairly set on my at-wills, but otherwise I'm willing to be persuaded on everything else Feat and Power related.

Galdor Miriel
2010-05-07, 08:15 AM
I like the concept, and the unwillingness to overly optimize, after all, having fun is the name of the game and I played a dwarven bard in a 3.5 game once whose charisma could have been better, but he was fun.

I think toughness is better in the low heroic tier levels, or low paragon. A better choice would be durable and get the extra surges to help keep you on your feat.

Another possible feat choice is a multi-class to a class that fits your character concept and then get the extra trained skill. Maybe your solider got some experience scouting enemy lines, and is multi class rogue with the stealth skill trained and a certain familiarity wit a bowie knife in the dark.

I do not know the fighter powers that well, but I am sure if you do not gimp yourself by choosing a power intended for intelligent or charismatic fighters you should be fine.

GM

Kurald Galain
2010-05-07, 08:26 AM
Okay. One thing you should consider is using a reach weapon. It gives you better tactical options, and synergizes well with Footwork Lure. Note that dual Strike requires that you wield two weapons, not a weapon and shield.

Toughness is nice at levels 1-3 or 11-13, but unnecessary around level 8, even moreso for a high-HP class. I would recommend grabbing a multiclass feat, they're generally among the best choices.

Likewise, battle hardened is not needed considering how extremely rare it is to make a save against fear. The MP book has a feat that gives +5 save bonus vs immobilize, which is much more useful.

Action Surge is overrated. It gives you +3 to hit once every other combat. That means it gives you one extra hit roughly every fourteen combats. And Against All Odds is also a feat that triggers on a rather unusual condition.

Probing Attack isn't all that great, I'd suggest Sweeping Blow. Also, I find that most fighter utility powers are underwhelming; I would recommend looking over the skill powers in PHB3.

You said your magic items were placeholders... generally the best bet for armor and neckslot are items that give resistances.

HTH!

Kiero
2010-05-07, 08:44 AM
I'm getting the sense that Toughness isn't so great. Is Durable a better switch? My only concern is that Second Wind is invariably a turn not doing anything useful. Least that was my experience of it as a Striker, Second Wind was something you did between combat, or used when the Cleric healed you. Is that a big difference between the Defender and Striker expriences?

Dual Strike (and other two-weapon powers) works with a Fighting shield, which is considered a Heavy Blade. Not really interested in a reach weapon, sword-and-board is fixed. Full Extension gives reach every now and then anyway.

Battle-hardened I like for the incidental +2 Initiative as well as the fear bonus. Given the setting (Planescape) I think fear is a distinct possibility. The alternative I was considering was Quick Draw, which was invaluable for a previous two-weapon fighter.

Should I be thinking about Human Perseverence instead of Action Surge? I've just always seen it written that Action Surge is the reason you play a human at all (at least for the people who consider optimisation above all else).

I've got a fully updated CB, but don't have PHB3, any thoughts which skill powers I should specifically be looking at?

Hal
2010-05-07, 08:53 AM
I have Action Surge on my human cleric, and I really like it; it's one of those things you use when you really want an attack to land (such as a daily).

If you were to abandon it, I've also got a soft-spot for Stubborn Survivor; +2 to saves when you have no action points is pretty useful if you tend to burn through them quickly.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-07, 08:58 AM
I'm getting the sense that Toughness isn't so great. Is Durable a better switch?
Not really. It is pretty rare under most DMs for people to run out of healing surges, and even if they do, the low-surge low-defense character is much more likely to run out. You should already have many surges due to your class and constitution.


My only concern is that Second Wind is invariably a turn not doing anything useful.
That is correct: second wind is generally a waste of time, except if you're playing a dwarf. That is why you should carry a few healing potions, and drag a leader along.


Battle-hardened I like for the incidental +2 Initiative as well as the fear bonus. Given the setting (Planescape) I think fear is a distinct possibility.
Fear attacks, sure. But fear saving throws, not really. For comparison, Eladrin get +5 save bonus against charm. Now charm attacks are rather common; charm saves, I've encountered precisely once in two years of play.

If you want initiative, there's always Improved Initiative. Quick Draw is primarily useful if you want to use a lot of different backup weapons or items, which ironically is better for spellcaster characters.


Should I be thinking about Human Perseverence instead of Action Surge? I've just always seen it written that Action Surge is the reason you play a human at all (at least for the people who consider optimisation above all else).
That's because the charop boards, especially when the PHB1 first came out, grossly overestimated the power of conditional bonuses. Human Perseverance is decent, Stubborn Survivor (FRPG) is probably better.


I've got a fully updated CB, but don't have PHB3, any thoughts which skill powers I should specifically be looking at?
Hm... one that lets you stand up as a minor action. One that lets you push enemies by intimidating them. Endurance gets a very nice one that gives you general damage resistance for a short time. I'd suggest borrowing the book, there are some nice options there.

Galdor Miriel
2010-05-07, 09:26 AM
Durable being useful depends on the dm and the class, as I think about it more. With our games we always have pressure to keep going, so most people have durable. But as a fighter it is probably not the best choice.

I agree with the other dude about action surge, not that great, and I had no idea what battle hardened was.

I was a bit confused about the shield or two weapon style. Sounds like one of your swords is a shield, shield defense is a good feat in that case maybe.


Have fun!

Tengu_temp
2010-05-07, 09:28 AM
Is Action Surge overrated? Yes.
Is it still worth taking? Yes. Overrated doesn't automatically mean bad.

Kiero
2010-05-07, 09:36 AM
For now, then, I'll stick with Toughness. Swapped out Battle-hardened for Improved Initiative. Action Surge for Human Perserverance (I prefer unconditional +1 to conditional +2).

Against All Odds needs a replacement (I guess unless we're swamped with minions it might be rare to have three opponents on me). Shield Defense?

Switched Probing Attack for Sweeping Blow (which is neatly a burst, not sure I had any before that change, I like bursts).



level 8
Human, Fighter
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
Background: Aglarond (Aglarond Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 25 Fort: 23 Reflex: 21 Will: 20
HP: 76 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 19

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +12, Perception +13, Endurance +9, Athletics +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +7, History +4, Insight +7, Intimidate +4, Nature +7, Religion +4, Stealth +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +4

FEATS
Human: Human Perseverance
Level 1: Toughness
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Shield Push
Level 6: Shield Defense
Level 8: Improved Initiative

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
Fighter daily 1: Bristling Defense
Fighter utility 2: Full Extension
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Snagging Grip
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It

ITEMS
Magic Scale Armor +2, Fighting Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Magic Longsword +2, Amulet of Protection +2, Magic Javelin +2

Yakk
2010-05-07, 10:01 AM
Normalized Defences:
AC: 17 Fort: 15 Reflex: 13 Will: 12

FEATS
Human: Action Surge
-- Note that this is worse than Weapon Expertise, but what isn't?
Level 1: Toughness
-- 71/35/17 vs 76/38/19
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
-- Feat tax.
Level 4: Shield Push
-- Requires that your DM ignore marks. Some DMs follow marks too much.
Level 6: Against All Odds
-- +1 situational (common) isn't bad.
Level 8: Battle Hardened
-- This is +2 initiative with a somewhat rare rider, you know?

-- Note that the PHB3 feat "skill power" is a kick ass feat you might want to fit in.
-- "Skill Swap" is also somewhat tempting.

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
-- two 'move the target' powers.
Fighter encounter 1: Funneling Flurry
-- I really don't like fighter encounter 1s.
-- Shield Riposte is good (imm. reaction to being attacked)
-- The power you chose is a pair of slides. You have 2 at-will positioners already.
Fighter daily 1: Bristling Defense
-- Villians Menace is usually the auto-choice for level 1 fighters.
Fighter utility 2: Full Extension
-- Pretty meh.
-- I sort of like Battle Fury, Pass Forward, Defensive Stance.
Fighter encounter 3: Probing Attack
-- I <3 immediate powers
-- Immediate Vengence (interrupt weaken+damage), Shield Edge Block (note that -4 penalty is an Effect),
-- Another path is AOE attacks. Sweeping Blow is super accurate and a great follow-up to Come and Get It.
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
-- Duh
Fighter utility 6: Snagging Grip
-- Daring Shot (keep yourself sticky), Unbreakable (7 more HP/fight), Rejoin the Fray (I'd rather be standing than having the opponent prone as well)
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
-- Duh.

ITEMS
Magic Scale Armor +2, Fighting Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Magic Longsword +2, Amulet of Protection +2, Magic Javelin +2
-- +2 Distance Javalin + Shield leaves you with 440 gp.
-- Then you get a L 9, 8 and 7 item.
-- Master's Weapon grants you a +1 to hit while in a stance, and a daily of 2 stances active.
-- Other options are also good.
-- You should be wearing MW Drakescale for +1 additional AC.
-- Ie, +2 Demonscale Drakescale (L 9) is good

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-07, 10:02 AM
Relatively low strength, but high wisdom? I'd look at feats that boost your opportunity attacks. (Not to be confused with those from your combat superiority, admittedly).

Pretty sure that it's worth considering, with getting your Wis bonus to Opportunity attacks already.

Looks like you've already picked powers that work well with your having a dex bonus, too. Generally I'd say it seems pretty solid. Between weapon expertise and focusing on swords, you're probably still packing reasonable chances to hit. Just keep the powers to ones that benefit from your generally high secondary and teritiary scores and you're pretty sorted really.

Personally, as a straight classed fighter with a decent Con, I wouldn't worry about toughness OR Durable, and pick up something more fun, or at least offensively minded, but Your Mileage May Vary.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-07, 10:11 AM
Level 6: Against All Odds
-- +1 situational (common) isn't bad.
I disagree that it's a common situation. In any fight without minions, it strikes me as unlikely to come up. In any fight with minions, well, if your party can't handle minions then it's got bigger issues.


Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
-- two 'move the target' powers.
That is actually a good point; TOI and FL are at least somewhat redundant.

There is an at-will in MP that deals more damage but lets you grant combat advantage (Brash Strike, IIRC). This is very useful if for whatever reason you already grant combat advantage. If enemies flank you, sucks to be them.


-- I sort of like Battle Fury, Pass Forward, Defensive Stance.
Of those three, I'd vote for Battle Fury, but there's probably a better skill power out there.

Swordgleam
2010-05-07, 01:55 PM
I disagree that it's a common situation. In any fight without minions, it strikes me as unlikely to come up. In any fight with minions, well, if your party can't handle minions then it's got bigger issues.

My party's defender routinely gets surrounded by that many enemies, especially when the bard is marking them for him. Perhaps it just depends on your party's style. You can always retrain stuff if you're even going to level up once (or your DM is understanding).

Tehnar
2010-05-07, 03:21 PM
For feats I would go, I would replace shield push, shield defense and improved initiative with stubborn survivor, a warlord multiclass and a bastard word proficiency is pretty good if it goes with your character. Weapon focus would be a good feat to take at level 10.

Kiero
2010-05-07, 03:39 PM
I'll try to deal with a number of points.

Still undecided on the Action Surge/Human Perseverence front. While the +3 to hit is nice for making sure a daily hits, I still remember a few times in the last game where even that wasn't enough to ensure unloading a daily did what it was supposed to.

Toughness; if there's a better Feat (or a more colourful one) then I'm open to suggestions. Plump for Weapon Focus for a bit more damage?

Shield Push; if the GM follows marks, I win. If the GM ignores marks, I win.

Against All Odds changed for Shield Defense.

Battle Hardened changed for Improved Initiative.

Tide of Iron and Footwork Lure; I thought the whole point here was some controller-y stuff to shunt enemies to where I want them (so the other PCs can take advantage of them)?

Funneling Flurry. Shield Riposte sounds useful if only because I don't think I have many reaction-powers.

How does Villain's Menace compare to Bristling Defense? Seems more damage with one attack, rather than two attacks.

I'll check out Battle Fury in place of Full Extension. I kind of like the thought of Pass Forward, not least because it's a mobility at-will (and done on move action) which makes my character more versatile.

Same goes alternative utility 6s. Both Unbreakable and Rejoin the Fray are kind of tasty. What about Vigilant Protector, for that teamwork thing?

In our last game minions tended to get blitzed fairly quickly between the Wizard and my Ranger's longbow Twin Strike (then he switched to get stuck into melee). So unless the GM takes a completely different approach, I don't think being outnumbered and alone will be that common. Don't forget there's at least a melee Cleric for other PCs.

I prefer Human Perseverence to Stubborn Survivor, because always-on beats conditional for me.

Thajocoth
2010-05-07, 04:06 PM
Since you've already got Come and Get It, I thought I should mention that Come and Get It, Action Point, Sweeping Blow is a common tactic that's quite good if there's more than one enemy on the field. These also mark a lot more enemies. For extended marking, Come and Get It one turn, marking 5-7 enemies usually, and the next turn Sweeping Blow to keep them marked. Sure, you can only react to one of them disobeying the mark, but they all still get -2 to hit your allies while marked. -3 if you take the Dragonmark feat that changes your marks from -2 to -3.

Any enemy you attack is marked, so adding more attacks in a round, whether it's by bursts, minors, immediates or whatever else, adds to how well you can protect your allies.

Tehnar
2010-05-07, 04:39 PM
The good thing about stubborn survivor is that you choose when you want the bonus to kick in, and it stacks with human perseverance. A fighter needs good saves so he can get out of those crowd control effects, so he is free to mark.

I wouldn't go for shield push because your mark is pretty good already, you don't have to boost it further.

When playing a fighter, I never considered action surge for him. A lot of times I was using the extra action to get into better position, and I was playing a fighter with a starting 20 STR, so he hit often anyway. Well at least until the DM started throwing creatures 5+ levels above us, then my guy was hitting 40% of the time. Anyway that is a big issue for the fighters mark. For it to be effective, your fighter needs to be able to hit reliably (and deal respectable damage too).

When you can do that some fun options include allies intentionally provoking AoO's from marked creatures, or you just completely locking down ranged striker/controler monsters.

For the utilities, they are pretty crappy but here are the two I suggest. At level 2 take the one that can negate CA. Lots of monsters get extra stuff when they have CA against you, this is a good way to say no to that. At level 6 there is on that gives you +2 to hit vs a enemy. Its good when dealing with very tough creatures.

For the level 1 power I prefer Comeback strike. When the encounter is tough you need ways to spend healing surges to stay up. Combined with the cleric/warlord multiclass you can last even in the toughest encounter.

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-05-07, 05:31 PM
Villain's Menace is the best fighter lv1 daily, use that. :smallwink:

Kiero
2010-05-07, 06:14 PM
While it is kind of neat that Comeback Strike allows me to spend a surge, that's what Clerics are for.

Do I need Blade Opportunist?


FEATS
Human: Human Perseverance
Level 1: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Shield Push
Level 6: Shield Defense
Level 8: Improved Initiative

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Shield Riposte
Fighter daily 1: Villain's Menace
Fighter utility 2: Endure Pain
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It

ITEMS
Magic Scale Armor +2, Fighting Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Magic Longsword +2, Amulet of Protection +2, Magic Javelin +2

Chainsaw Hobbit
2010-05-07, 06:25 PM
Improved Initiative sucks, put durable in it's place. (no one takes Improved Initiative)

Kiero
2010-05-07, 06:42 PM
Improved Initiative sucks, put durable in it's place. (no one takes Improved Initiative)

Durable is pretty worthless in my group. From my experience with them, almost no one ever used up all their surges. The 11 surges I already have are plenty.

Tehnar
2010-05-07, 06:57 PM
Comeback strike is your safety net. If the encounter is so tough that the cleric uses all his healing, and there are still monsters around, Comeback strike might be what will save the day. And it comes with a reliable tag.

herrhauptmann
2010-05-07, 07:03 PM
If you like action surge, there's two other feats you might like, I just can't remember their names. Though they're in either MP2 or PHB3.
1- lets you shift 1 when you stand from prone.
1- Gives you a shift when you action point.

The regeneration utility is very nice. Only takes effect while you're bloodied though.
Cloak of walking wounded lets you second wind for 2 surges instead of 1 while bloodied. Obviously worthless if you're not expecting to second wind during a fight.
Belt of vigor increases your surge value by 1.
Acrobatic boots, make standing from prone easier.
Boots of adept charging let you shift after a charge. Greatly enhances battlefield mobility.


What is the fighting shield? Grants shield bonus, but lets you choose to fight dual weapon if you wish?
AV1 has a weapon enchantment that lets you, as a minor action, change the shape of your weapon. Another minor lets you change it back again.
It sounds useless, but it's good if you get immobilized or slowed too far away to hit enemies. Burn a minor action, and your magic sword is now a magic javelin. Magic thrown weapons are returning weapons. Or you can turn it into a reach weapon. It lasts until the end of the encounter. Though you can only change it from sword to X and back again once per encounter.
Costs the same as a generic magic weapon as well. So you really lose nothing vs owning a standard +2 sword.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-08, 03:21 AM
Costs the same as a generic magic weapon as well. So you really lose nothing vs owning a standard +2 sword.

What you lose is this: as soon as you hit level 7 or level 8 and have a bit of spare cash, you can upgrade your "standard +2 sword" to a "+2 sword of coolness". You can't do that with a polymorphic sword, so you end up paying a lot more for a weapon with a powerful property (unless you happen to find one).

Most fighters get little benefit from having more than one melee weapon and a heavy thrown for backup, anyway.

Epinephrine
2010-05-08, 05:44 AM
While it is kind of neat that Comeback Strike allows me to spend a surge, that's what Clerics are for.


I somewhat disagree. There are fights in which things start to go wrong - when the cleric is going to need to be healing more than usual, and when it'd be swell if you had a way to self-heal without wasting a round on a second wind.

Invigorating attacks help, since they can add a bit of staying power, but I don't think it's bad to have a way of healing yourself. The notion that all healing should come from the cleric doesn't reflect reality - my job as a defender is to keep the party safe, and that includes allowing the cleric to keep a striker up.

Kiero
2010-05-08, 05:59 AM
I somewhat disagree. There are fights in which things start to go wrong - when the cleric is going to need to be healing more than usual, and when it'd be swell if you had a way to self-heal without wasting a round on a second wind.

Invigorating attacks help, since they can add a bit of staying power, but I don't think it's bad to have a way of healing yourself. The notion that all healing should come from the cleric doesn't reflect reality - my job as a defender is to keep the party safe, and that includes allowing the cleric to keep a striker up.

That's what Endure Pain is for if things are going really badly, I get damage resistance for long enough for the Cleric to sort out the Striker then get to me. Otherwise I could always switch it for Boundless Endurance, and get regeneration when I become Bloodied.

I want a Daily that lets me do damage, not do the Cleric's job for him. In the last game, our Defender only went down once, having lots of hit points and a high AC is enough.

Tehnar
2010-05-08, 06:00 AM
When playing a fighter I had comeback strike, dwarven armor and the inspiring word via warlord multiclass.

Dwarven armor was mostly a fire and forget ability. I used it when I needed it, and after that encounter was over I equipped my fighter with another type of armor.

Inspiring word was hoarded carefully. If things go wrong and your cleric gets taken down early, you need a way to get him up. Another situation that comes up often is when there are a lot of status effects / walls thrown around the cleric might not be in a position to reach your fighter with healing. A range of 5 is not exactly great.

A 3W power against a 2W power is not that much difference, with a longsword it is maybe 5-6 damage extra. The rider effect with VM is not that great in practise, as it is useful for only solo monsters, which are not that difficult to deal with.

Kiero
2010-05-08, 06:32 AM
Comeback Strike doesn't do anything on a miss, Villain's Menace does.

Our Cleric is a melee cleric, he's not likely to ever be far from my character.

Epinephrine
2010-05-08, 06:44 AM
I want a Daily that lets me do damage, not do the Cleric's job for him. In the last game, our Defender only went down once, having lots of hit points and a high AC is enough.

I guess as defender I don't concentrate on damage with my dailies; I tend to leave that to the party's two strikers, while I use my dailies to control the board or to tank it up better.

To be fair, it's my first time playing a defender, and I'm a warden, but the principles are the same. I'm perfectly willing to take a total defense action and just soak while the strikers drop the target.

At this level, it consists of pulling everyone around me and slowing or immobilising them, then using my second wind etc. to survive the beating (as a warden I mark as a free action, so I can even total defense and mark them). My second wind is awesome (+Con to AC, on top of the +2 from second wind), boosting my defenses like crazy, so it's a heal and defenses while the enemy trapped next to me get pounded on. A pinning weapon is amazing at low-level. I can get next to a big nasty, pin him, and let the ranged strikers rip him to pieces while I turtle.

Later, I am thinking of adding a Ring of Personal Gravity to pin them in place while adjacent to me, and possibly Parry Gauntlets or a Ring of Vigilant defense, to get a +2 or +4 bonus to defenses when doing a total defense.

It may not seem very glamourous to sit there tanking their hits (to be fair, I also often attack them - but total defense is an option, too), but it is working so far. I'm not saying your method won't work, too; I just thought you might like an alternate perspective. If your party has only one striker, picking up some striker-like power might be wise, but if your cleric is going to be in melee and looking at some offensive powers you may need to be more self-sufficient.

Kiero
2010-05-08, 07:13 AM
I guess as defender I don't concentrate on damage with my dailies; I tend to leave that to the party's two strikers, while I use my dailies to control the board or to tank it up better.

It may not seem very glamourous to sit there tanking their hits (to be fair, I also often attack them - but total defense is an option, too), but it is working so far. I'm not saying your method won't work, too; I just thought you might like an alternate perspective. If your party has only one striker, picking up some striker-like power might be wise, but if your cleric is going to be in melee and looking at some offensive powers you may need to be more self-sufficient.

We'll only have one Striker. We have four players and by common agreement we always have one of each Role. I strongly suspect that just like last time mine will be the only Martial character.

We're 8th level if that makes any difference.

Yakk
2010-05-08, 07:35 AM
Shield Push; if the GM follows marks, I win. If the GM ignores marks, I win.
If the GM follows marks, you lose in this case.

Because if you had a different feat, you'd be better off.

And even if you had a different feat, if the GM ignores marks, you already are really nasty in punishing the monster. (ie, if monsters constantly ignore your marks, you are getting a bonus attack every single round -- which is "I win").

If you put too many resources into "punish if they ignore marks" and not enough into "punish if they follow marks", you lose.

Plus, feats that you don't get to use are less fun. When your option is a bonus skill power (+4 move and +5 athletics and ignore difficult terrain 1/encounter?), or a d10 attack die, or...

How does Villain's Menace compare to Bristling Defense? Seems more damage with one attack, rather than two attacks.
When looking at daily attacks, look for effects and things that happen on a miss, not raw damage.

If you run into a tough boss type, and you menace it... if the attack hits, you just won the fight (+2 to hit +4 to damage on every hit turns you into a striker-damage-level character). If it misses, +1/+2 is still pretty good.

It is a "if this hits, you lose. If it misses, you are still in trouble" power.

Menace is the power I slot into fighters so they can win fights against solos. Rain of Steel is the power I slot into fighters so they can win every other fight.

Both Unbreakable and Rejoin the Fray are kind of tasty. What about Vigilant Protector, for that teamwork thing?
Unbreakable is a super-toughness. Note that it is a reaction, which is a cost...

I tend to load fighters up with reactions and interrupts. It makes for a more fun play experience, even if you run into "oh crap, do I use the reaction or save it" problems.

As for Protector, I dislike small positional bonuses just for the annoyance factor. I also have a strong bias for encounter powers: I like having a boatload of stuff to do in each fight. If a power is a daily, I want it to break the encounter.

Daring Shot is also good (CB1 mark, plus temp HP, encounter).

Comeback strike is your safety net.
See, the problem is that the impact isn't large enough. It doesn't win the fight.

The rider effect with VM is not that great in practise, as it is useful for only solo monsters, which are not that difficult to deal with.
My DM likes to throw an above level solo, plus a standard encounter, at us. Being able to end the solo is useful.

Note that it also boosts your mark threat on that solo, so the solo doesn't just ignore the fighter and eat the cleric (which is a really good tactic for solos, as they get punished once and deal 2 to 3 times the pain).

Thajocoth
2010-05-08, 11:26 AM
Comeback Strike doesn't do anything on a miss, Villain's Menace does.

Our Cleric is a melee cleric, he's not likely to ever be far from my character.

Comeback Strike is reliable. That means, on a miss, it's not spent. Your Cleric can only use Healing Word twice in an encounter. What if you need a 3rd heal? That's really what it's for.

Kiero
2010-05-08, 12:39 PM
Comeback Strike is reliable. That means, on a miss, it's not spent. Your Cleric can only use Healing Word twice in an encounter. What if you need a 3rd heal? That's really what it's for.

So on a miss you have a wasted turn. If it's really bad, I'd rather just Second Wind it. Otherwise, a Fighter is more than durable enough to wait for the Cleric.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-08, 12:46 PM
Comeback Strike is reliable. That means, on a miss, it's not spent. Your Cleric can only use Healing Word twice in an encounter. What if you need a 3rd heal? That's really what it's for.

I tend to agree with Yakk that it doesn't have enough impact. Given the action economy (and given that you generally build your character with the purpose not to miss), "reliable" on a power isn't worth all that much. There are several minor action utility powers that a fighter could use to heal himself or give himself THP, and that strikes me as more effective than spending one of your daily slots on this contingency.

Yakk
2010-05-08, 03:26 PM
If you never run into hard opponents, Menace isn't that useful. But I find DMs tend to throw at least 1 hard opponent (solo or over-leveled elite) in planned "hard" fights, and Menace reduces that opponent to being quickly killed.

And killing an opponent faster > healing the damage you take because it took longer to kill it.

If it was an encounter power that let you spend a healing surge, then that becomes somewhat reasonable. But you are burning a rare resource (a daily attack power) to do a slightly above average strike, then grant yourself a resource that other characters can get on a per-encounter utility power level.

Look at leader encounter utility powers: most every one of them has a "target can spend a healing surge" encounter power. Utility powers are "worth" less than attack abilities, which really shows you how far down the power pyramid you go before "can spend a healing surge" becomes worthwhile.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-08, 07:07 PM
I tend to load fighters up with reactions and interrupts. It makes for a more fun play experience, even if you run into "oh crap, do I use the reaction or save it" problems.
See, I do the opposite.

Classes that already have something to spend their Immediate Action on most rounds should not be taking powers that force them to give up their class ability. Fighters in particular need that Immediate Action, but this applies to most Defenders.

There is a bit of meta-game logic here. Once the DM notices you have used up your Immediate for the round, he is going to take the opportunity to disengage your Defender and smack around some squishies. As long as you keep that Immediate Action open, he's going to think twice about evading the Defender - which lets you do your job better.

That said, there are some awesome Immediate Powers that outweigh the above sentiment, and some classes trigger their class ability less often than others - which means there will be more times per combat that you won't be able to use your class ability as a deterrent.

Kiero
2010-05-09, 06:19 AM
Right, our party is tentatively thus:
Human Fighter
Wemic (melee) Cleric
Dragonborn Barbarian
Tiefling Psion

Does that have any impact on how I should be thinking tactics, besides "stick to the Cleric, stop them getting to the Psion"?

Coidzor
2010-05-09, 07:57 AM
Right, our party is tentatively thus:
Human Fighter
Wemic (melee) Cleric
Dragonborn Barbarian
Tiefling Psion

Does that have any impact on how I should be thinking tactics, besides "stick to the Cleric, stop them getting to the Psion"?

Well, with three melee combatants, you can definitely coordinate yourselves to create an effective buffer between the squishy and one's opponents. So working out how you can synergize your role as a defender with a melee striker and leader. Might be able to set up your barbarian for charges with Tide of Iron pushing.

Or if you really want fun, set up a situation where you're flanking with both of them but your mark and combat superiority discourage them from getting out of it.

I'm sure others will have better suggestions along shortly though.

Yakk
2010-05-09, 09:04 AM
See, I do the opposite.

Classes that already have something to spend their Immediate Action on most rounds should not be taking powers that force them to give up their class ability. Fighters in particular need that Immediate Action, but this applies to most Defenders.

There is a bit of meta-game logic here. Once the DM notices you have used up your Immediate for the round, he is going to take the opportunity to disengage your Defender and smack around some squishies. As long as you keep that Immediate Action open, he's going to think twice about evading the Defender - which lets you do your job better.
*nod*, that is true.

But immediate action powers tend to be over-powered, they are fun to use (they give you a reason to pay attention at all times, and they let you say to the DM "no, that isn't how it works, instead your monster falls over and dies"), and if you save their use for the last marked monster before the start of your turn you don't even give up anything (in the case of "monster attack you response" powers that fighters get). You can sometimes do something similar with monsters that are not the last one (because they geometrically have issues with attacking anyone except for you).

Being able to subtract 4 from the hit roll of any monster that hits you is very strong -- it is worth about +20% HP per encounter (usually more!). (It negates a hit in 76% of encounters if restricted to being used on the last marked monster to attack before your turn, and 94% if you use it on the last or 2nd last monster to attack you, whenever it comes up).

The goal of the defender is to create a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Immediate actions on response to being hit do up the damning.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-09, 03:27 PM
Well, with three melee combatants, you can definitely coordinate yourselves to create an effective buffer between the squishy and one's opponents. So working out how you can synergize your role as a defender with a melee striker and leader. Might be able to set up your barbarian for charges with Tide of Iron pushing.

Or if you really want fun, set up a situation where you're flanking with both of them but your mark and combat superiority discourage them from getting out of it.

I'm sure others will have better suggestions along shortly though.
Depends on what kind of Barbarian we're dealing with.

Rageborn are tanky enough on their own, but a Dragonborn is probably going to be Thaneborn. Your Thaneborn is going to want to be paired with another heavy-hitter or guarded against retaliatory fire - they give nice buffs to melee attacks.

If your Cleric is a 2H Cleric, then you should take point and tie down as many enemies as you can. The Cleric-Barbarian team can then flank and destroy anyone who gets through.

Just some things to consider.

Kiero
2010-05-10, 08:55 AM
Well, with three melee combatants, you can definitely coordinate yourselves to create an effective buffer between the squishy and one's opponents. So working out how you can synergize your role as a defender with a melee striker and leader. Might be able to set up your barbarian for charges with Tide of Iron pushing.

Or if you really want fun, set up a situation where you're flanking with both of them but your mark and combat superiority discourage them from getting out of it.

I'm sure others will have better suggestions along shortly though.

Worth mentioning that we were three melee combatants last time around, our party then was:
Human Ranger (melee/two-weapon)
Human Cleric (laser)
Genasi Swordmage (assault)
Genasi Wizard (cold/orbs)

So we're quite used to limited range options and protecting a fourth non-melee-ist. Then my Ranger was the only serious ranged combatant, though I persuaded them after our second encounter that it was useful for them all to have crossbows.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 09:34 AM
Worth mentioning that we were three melee combatants last time around, our party then was:
Human Ranger (melee/two-weapon)
Human Cleric (laser)
Genasi Swordmage (assault)
Genasi Wizard (cold/orbs)

So we're quite used to limited range options and protecting a fourth non-melee-ist. Then my Ranger was the only serious ranged combatant, though I persuaded them after our second encounter that it was useful for them all to have crossbows.
...you play a very strange game. I have yet to see a circumstance when a Lazor Cleric and Wizard are better off with crossbows than using their normal powers. Were you usually fighting at 6-12 square ranges? :smallconfused:

Kurald Galain
2010-05-10, 09:46 AM
...you play a very strange game. I have yet to see a circumstance when a Lazor Cleric and Wizard are better off with crossbows than using their normal powers. Were you usually fighting at 6-12 square ranges? :smallconfused:

Yeah. I don't think wizards have any powers with range less than 10.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 09:54 AM
Yeah. I don't think wizards have any powers with range less than 10.
Not to mention the fact that neither Lazor Clerics nor Orb Wizards should have DEX at all! How could they hit anything with a crossbow?

Now I'm super confused :smallfrown:

Kylarra
2010-05-10, 09:59 AM
On a tangentially related, but amusing note, I've always wanted to play an elven laser cleric with the bow-implement PP.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 10:14 AM
On a tangentially related, but amusing note, I've always wanted to play an elven laser cleric with the bow-implement PP.
The Elven Bow Cleric is a very satisfying build, IMHO.

I played one before this silly bow-implement PP, but let me tell you, nothing is quite as fun as going MC Ranger and then using Disruptive Strike (at range 20!) to provide an effective defense buff of +7-10 vs. one attack :smallbiggrin:

Example
DM: "OK, the giant hits the Fighter for 20 damage"
Me: "Wait, did he hit by less than 8?"
DM: "...yes, but he's clear across the room!"
Me: "Is he within 20 squares?"
DM: "No, he's 37 squares away!"
Me: "Fine, I attack at a -2 penalty"
DM: :smallfrown:
Me: :smallbiggrin:

Kiero
2010-05-10, 10:42 AM
...you play a very strange game. I have yet to see a circumstance when a Lazor Cleric and Wizard are better off with crossbows than using their normal powers. Were you usually fighting at 6-12 square ranges? :smallconfused:

No, but there were occasions where we had enemies at ranges beyond anything the others were capable of hitting with powers. And that it would be a waste of the Wizard's often AoE spells taking pot-shots at things that far away. Firing a crossbow, better than doing nothing at all while waiting for the enemy to close.

We didn't play dungeon-crawling, and hopefully won't be doing that this time either. All the fights, bar one last time were out in the open.

Doug Lampert
2010-05-10, 10:53 AM
Still undecided on the Action Surge/Human Perseverence front. While the +3 to hit is nice for making sure a daily hits, I still remember a few times in the last game where even that wasn't enough to ensure unloading a daily did what it was supposed to.

IMAO you DON'T Action Surge your daily. That either does half damage on a miss or is reliable. You use your daily, action point, and then use the Action Surge on your best ENCOUNTER POWER.

Encounter powers typically do as much on a hit as a daily, but do nothing on a miss. Dailies do half on a miss. +1 to your best encounter is worth about twice as much as +1 to a daily unless the daily puts on a status condition on a hit that you absolutely positively have to have put on that foe.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 10:55 AM
No, but there were occasions where we had enemies at ranges beyond anything the others were capable of hitting with powers. And that it would be a waste of the Wizard's often AoE spells taking pot-shots at things that far away. Firing a crossbow, better than doing nothing at all while waiting for the enemy to close.

We didn't play dungeon-crawling, and hopefully won't be doing that this time either. All the fights, bar one last time were out in the open.
...interesting.

Any particular reason your enemies didn't carry crossbows or longbows? Having a force of monsters skilled with long-ranged weapons facing against a force inexpertly firing crossbows is a pretty good deal for the opposition.

Me, I would have just double-moved into range instead of moving once, firing (hoping for a high roll) and doing 1d8 damage. And why didn't your Wizard take (or retrain into) Magic Missile? 2d4+INT at Range 20 (no penalty) seems like a better deal.

Doug Lampert
2010-05-10, 11:06 AM
...you play a very strange game. I have yet to see a circumstance when a Lazor Cleric and Wizard are better off with crossbows than using their normal powers. Were you usually fighting at 6-12 square ranges? :smallconfused:

You never fight in the open? Many encounters in my world, ESPECIALLY with fliers or cavalry, start at 51+ range. If there isn't good cover nearby not having a bow is just asking to get shot at till you FIND some sort of cover.

Most characters in my campaign have a longbow, since even with no proficiency bonus a 20 still hits, and 1 in 20 per round >> no chance at all till the foe runs out of arrows.

DougL

Kurald Galain
2010-05-10, 11:15 AM
Most characters in my campaign have a longbow, since even with no proficiency bonus a 20 still hits, and 1 in 20 per round >> no chance at all till the foe runs out of arrows.
It strikes me that "firing back with a small to-hit chance until the foe runs out of arrows" is a good recipe for getting your party killed. Enemies will almost always have (much) more HP than the party, so if they do more DPR than you do (which strikes me as likely if you're using a bow you're not proficient in), it's time to run away really fast.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 11:19 AM
You never fight in the open? Many encounters in my world, ESPECIALLY with fliers or cavalry, start at 51+ range. If there isn't good cover nearby not having a bow is just asking to get shot at till you FIND some sort of cover.

Most characters in my campaign have a longbow, since even with no proficiency bonus a 20 still hits, and 1 in 20 per round >> no chance at all till the foe runs out of arrows.

DougL
I... I usually make use of cover until I can move into effective range.

I do try to avoid fighting cavalry and fliers on open plains. In fact, I try to avoid fighting anything on an open plain - which is pretty easy, since you can see really far when there isn't any cover.

Y'see, I don't relish fighting at a massive disadvantage - such as getting into an archery duel with actual archers when I'm a spindly wizard or a barbarian. If I see archers at 51+ squares, I keep moving away from them and towards cover and wait for them to close. If I see cavalry/fliers at 51+ and there is no cover, I keep moving until either they close range or until I find better ground.

And for fliers, there's the fun of readying an Immobilizing, Slow, or Daze attack for when they are within arm's reach. Immobilize the mount and then push the rider off.

There are better things to do with your actions than firing aimlessly (literally!) against a foe trained to fight you at that range. I guess I could lug around a crossbow/longbow on the off-chance that I have a round before the cavalry/fliers move into range - but I'm certain there's something else I could do that's more productive.

Doug Lampert
2010-05-10, 11:30 AM
I... I usually make use of cover until I can move into effective range.

I do try to avoid fighting cavalry and fliers on open plains. In fact, I try to avoid fighting anything on an open plain - which is pretty easy, since you can see really far when there isn't any cover.

Y'see, I don't relish fighting at a massive disadvantage - such as getting into an archery duel with actual archers when I'm a spindly wizard or a barbarian. If I see archers at 51+ squares, I keep moving away from them and towards cover and wait for them to close. If I see cavalry/fliers at 51+ and there is no cover, I keep moving until either they close range or until I find better ground.

And for fliers, there's the fun of readying an Immobilizing, Slow, or Daze attack for when they are within arm's reach. Immobilize the mount and then push the rider off.

There are better things to do with your actions than firing aimlessly (literally!) against a foe trained to fight you at that range. I guess I could lug around a crossbow/longbow on the off-chance that I have a round before the cavalry/fliers move into range - but I'm certain there's something else I could do that's more productive.

And why would the **** should the flier come in range if you're doing NOTHING to it at range? Same for the cavalry. If you CAN'T hurt them at all at range they can hold the range open and pincussion you even if THEY'RE also no good with a bow, because you can't even be ineffective at that range.

Anything fast or flying with hands WILL carry a bow in my world, because they're NOT STUPID, and that means that if there's no cover nearby they'll try to pincousion you PRIOR to closing. Double move toward cavalry? That'll work well. Shoot, move back. Double move back. Shoot move back. Double move back. Shoot, move back.... You have infinite HP?

As for loading yourself down. Don't be silly, the bows and arrows (except for the ranger) can live in the bag of holding till the fight starts, the cost is chicken feed.

Not carrying a long range weapon is COUNTING on your DM not playing any of your foes like intelligent creatures that want to live.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 11:40 AM
Not carrying a long range weapon is COUNTING on your DM not playing any of your foes like intelligent creatures that want to live.
And fighting long-ranged foes with crappy weapons is a Player not playing their character like an intelligent creature that wants to live :smalltongue:

Seriously. Exchanging 1d8 or 1d10 damage 5% of the time for 1d10+4 50% of the time is not a good bargain. Maybe it made sense in TSR D&D when everyone had only a few HD of HP, but you're not going to outlast anyone with that kind of math in 4e. Like Kurald Galain said, monsters have a lot more HP than characters - even if it's 5 Artillery vs. 1 Bow Ranger & 4 untrained Longbows, the Artillery is going to win.

No offense, but how exactly do your PCs survive against griffon-archers and longbow cavalry with your tactics? :smallconfused:

EDIT:
Interesting fact - a Warhorse has Speed 8. A running PC also has Speed 8. If a mounted Archer moves-and-fires, he can only move 8 per turn. A double-running PC moves 16. Provided you start your Encounter at more than 40 squares, your PC is always going to be out of range. Even a walking Dwarf moves 10 squares per turn

A running Warhorse imposes a -5 on the Archer's attack and still loses 6 squares every turn.

Running away (or closing distance) is actually quite easy in 4e :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2010-05-10, 11:42 AM
And why would the **** should the flier come in range if you're doing NOTHING to it at range? Same for the cavalry. If you CAN'T hurt them at all at range they can hold the range open and pincussion you even if THEY'RE also no good with a bow, because you can't even be ineffective at that range.
Here's the thing: most characters in 4E cannot be effective at ranges above 20 (several classes have a problem above range 10) except for characters that are actually good with a bow (i.e. dex-based classes with bow proficiency).

So at range 50? Everyone who's not an archer class has the choice of (1) having no attacks, or (2) having ineffective attacks. The point is that this doesn't make a difference, because either way, those horseman archers are going to massacre the party. A DM playing horseman archers against effectively will kill the bow-wielding party just as badly as the bow-less party. Except for archer classes, of course.

Yes, you can slaughter most PC parties with a group of archer elves (who even get an attack bonus for running away from you!) even if the archers are several levels lower. Conversely, a group of PCs that all play archer rangers can slaughter encounters even several levels higher. Kiting is devastating in 4E. More to the point, 4E is not a tactical wargame, and using such a strategy would not be recommended as it's really kind of boring.

And that is why e.g. wizards don't need to carry a bow. In the situations where they need it, it doesn't help them.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-10, 11:51 AM
A
Interesting fact - a Warhorse has Speed 8. A running PC also has Speed 8. If a mounted Archer moves-and-fires, he can only move 8 per turn. A double-running PC moves 16.
Sure, but the mounted archer can also run for 10 squares, and double-run for 20. That means that every few turns, he can do an attack + run (which means no attack penalty).

Turn one: PC moves 16, horseman moves 20, PC is 4 behind.
Turn two: Ditto, PC is now 8 behind.
Turn three: PC moves 16, horseman shoots and moves 10. PC gets shot and is still 2 behind.
Lather, rinse, repeat. It doesn't really matter if the PC is trying to close or to evade; a long-range archer that is faster than him can, technically, kill him and there's nothing much he can do about that.

But like I said, that shouldn't occur in an actual game. Any DM can invoke Rocks Fall Everybody Dies if he wants to, he doesn't need this rule to do that.

Tehnar
2010-05-10, 11:54 AM
It might seem a ok tactic at low levels where you still have some chance at hitting monsters and their hit points are low, so your 5-6 damage hits can take out the monster after a while. In like 4-5 attacks, which with a 25% hit rate turn into 16-20 rounds for a single character. Long, and boring, but somewhat doable.

At higher levels you will probably need a 20 to hit any monsters AC, and will probably need something like 40 attacks to whittle it down. So you are looking at something like 800 rounds for a single character to take it down. Or a group of 4 PCs some 200 rounds of shooting!!! Even if your PCs can take the beating the monster will dish out, do you really want to be throwing dice for 2 hours?

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 11:56 AM
Sure, but the mounted archer can also run for 10 squares, and double-run for 20. That means that every few turns, he can do an attack + run (which means no attack penalty).

Turn one: PC moves 16, horseman moves 20, PC is 4 behind.
Turn two: Ditto, PC is now 8 behind.
Turn three: PC moves 16, horseman shoots and moves 10. PC gets shot and is still 2 behind.
Lather, rinse, repeat. It doesn't really matter if the PC is trying to close or to evade; a long-range archer that is faster than him can, technically, kill him and there's nothing much he can do about that.

But like I said, that shouldn't occur in an actual game. Any DM can invoke Rocks Fall Everybody Dies if he wants to, he doesn't need this rule to do that.
Oh yes, very true. However, 1 attack every 3 turns is much more survivable. Unless you are on the Plains of Maltak, you're almost certain to find cover or some defensible position before anyone drops (AP for Second Wind, of course).

EDIT:
@Tenhar - even then it's not a good idea. Even assuming 14 DEX, a LV 1 character is going to have a +4 vs. AC with Crossbow (+2 v. AC with unskilled longbow) and even Goblin Sharpshooters (+9 v. AC) have AC 16. Combine that with the 1d8+2 vs. 1d6+4 and you're doomed.

(9/20)(1d8+2) vs. (14/20)(1d6+4) is not math you want to do. Note that the Sharpshooter has, at worst, a 50% chance of hitting a LV 1 PC (AC 20).

Also: Goblin Sharpshooters have 31 HP. A CON 20 Paladin with Toughness will have 40 HP - but your CON 13 Wizard only has 23.

WARNING: Terrible Math Ahead
Doing an average of max, both attacks "do" 5 damage.

The expected damage by the PC is (9/20)(5) = 2.25
The expected damage by the Sharpshooter (vs. AC 16) = 3.5

It will take the PC 14 turns to take down the Goblin. The Goblin will drop the Wizard PC in 7.

I'm certain this math is so bad as to prove nothing, but, crudely put, this is the style of exchange you're looking at.

Tehnar
2010-05-10, 12:23 PM
Yeah, I'm aware its not a good idea. Was just pointing out that it might be feasable (though not effective) to have such a exchange at low levels. The wizard could be getting healed, or have friends join to shoot the goblin.

But still its going to take time and resources that can be better spent going to cover and devising some other plan of dealing with the monster.

Doug Lampert
2010-05-10, 12:59 PM
Here's the thing: most characters in 4E cannot be effective at ranges above 20 (several classes have a problem above range 10) except for characters that are actually good with a bow (i.e. dex-based classes with bow proficiency).

So at range 50? Everyone who's not an archer class has the choice of (1) having no attacks, or (2) having ineffective attacks. The point is that this doesn't make a difference, because either way, those horseman archers are going to massacre the party. A DM playing horseman archers against effectively will kill the bow-wielding party just as badly as the bow-less party. Except for archer classes, of course.

Yes, you can slaughter most PC parties with a group of archer elves (who even get an attack bonus for running away from you!) even if the archers are several levels lower. Conversely, a group of PCs that all play archer rangers can slaughter encounters even several levels higher. Kiting is devastating in 4E. More to the point, 4E is not a tactical wargame, and using such a strategy would not be recommended as it's really kind of boring.

And that is why e.g. wizards don't need to carry a bow. In the situations where they need it, it doesn't help them.

Monsters have more HP? Not if they're of much lower level or minions, and guess what, YOU'VE SET IT UP so ranged minions of lower level can TPK you!

One MINION of lower level can kill you all if you have no way to deal with him. You should ALWAYS have at least one or two weapons of the longest range possible unless you're guaranteed to outmanuever everyone. And since it doesn't cost ANYTHING significant to add this capability you'd be a fool not to.

You're counting on your DM not using ranged mobility even when it makes sense for the foes to do so. You're counting on mobile foes NOT realizing that they can double move too.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-10, 01:24 PM
One MINION of lower level can kill you all if you have no way to deal with him. You should ALWAYS have at least one or two weapons of the longest range possible unless you're guaranteed to outmanuever everyone. And since it doesn't cost ANYTHING significant to add this capability you'd be a fool not to.
...but I believe you didn't actually address my point there. I was talking about regular monsters, nor minions. Against normal enemies, how is a bow going to make a difference for a non-archer character, given the monster hits more often and does more damage per hit?


You're counting on your DM not using ranged mobility even when it makes sense for the foes to do so. You're counting on mobile foes NOT realizing that they can double move too.
No, I'm counting on the DM to keep things fair (and a DM who wants a TPK doesn't need mounted archers for that, either). Nobody is saying that you shouldn't carry a bow, people are saying that it doesn't actually help even if you do.

Thajocoth
2010-05-10, 02:00 PM
When I played a fighter, I had a "just in case" bow. It never hit, but in the fight that I actually needed it in, giving that dragon -2 to hit my allies each turn (by marking them by firing the bow), made the difference for half the attacks for whether or not they hit. I was still able to defend despite getting sidelined, purely because I had a longbow with me.

Remember, a fighter doesn't need to hit to mark. They just need to attack. The -2 to attacks that don't include the fighter can make a big difference.

It's practically nothing for a longbow and quiver... No wait, it IS nothing for a longbow and quiver. You're starting above first level. You get free mundane gear. There's no reason to get an enchanted bow. It's for rare use, but it can be useful.

Kylarra
2010-05-10, 03:20 PM
I'm willing to concede that the fighter can make use of a longbow, but the cleric and wizard don't have marks, so they're just flailing ineffectually.

Kiero
2010-05-10, 03:27 PM
...interesting.

Any particular reason your enemies didn't carry crossbows or longbows? Having a force of monsters skilled with long-ranged weapons facing against a force inexpertly firing crossbows is a pretty good deal for the opposition.

Me, I would have just double-moved into range instead of moving once, firing (hoping for a high roll) and doing 1d8 damage. And why didn't your Wizard take (or retrain into) Magic Missile? 2d4+INT at Range 20 (no penalty) seems like a better deal.

You're assuming every encounter automatically becomes a pitched battle. And that advancing to meet the enemy, rather than preparing and letting them come to you is always the best option.

In one instance it was an advance party of gnoll scouts, who didn't actually want to fight us initially. Not until their shaman pulled down a blizzard so they could attempt to move in under it's cover.

In another it was weakening two shambling ice-undead-things before they got into melee range (those things didn't have any means to reply).

Both of these started at about range 50, you expect the other three characters to just twiddle their thumbs, or else get strung out as the slower Cleric fails to keep up with the rest of the party?

A basic ranged attack is better than doing absolutely nothing.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 04:18 PM
You're assuming every encounter automatically becomes a pitched battle. And that advancing to meet the enemy, rather than preparing and letting them come to you is always the best option.
. . .
Both of these started at about range 50, you expect the other three characters to just twiddle their thumbs, or else get strung out as the slower Cleric fails to keep up with the rest of the party?

A basic ranged attack is better than doing absolutely nothing.
I'm not saying you shouldn't set an ambush - but you do have to set an ambush, not just fire wildly at people you can't even reach. Moving into superior combat positions, hiding to get the extra Standard from the surprise round, or even just scouting out the enemy are all better ideas than hoping to roll a 20.

Aside from some special cases (Fighters using Ranged marking, opponents with no ranged attacks) it's just a better idea to aim for the free Standard Action and Combat Advantage or getting into a position where you can use your actual class power.

Also: why did the gnolls attack you instead of moving away? If they're scouts and didn't want to attack anyways, they should have ignored your wild shots and reported your position. This is just one example where shooting wildly shouldn't have been a good idea.

In fact, I can only see a few times where arming PCs with Crossbows or Longbows is a good idea:
- repelling a frontal attack from a fortified position
- drawing an enemy into an ambush (when a Ranger isn't around)
- as a sneaky trick to make your opponent underestimate you

@Doug - I'm afraid I don't find your post responsive in the least, so I'll leave it to Kurald Galain to hash it out (if he wants to) :smalltongue:

Thajocoth
2010-05-10, 05:03 PM
I'm willing to concede that the fighter can make use of a longbow, but the cleric and wizard don't have marks, so they're just flailing ineffectually.

Wizards and Clerics should have ranged spells. There's no reason for either to carry a longbow.

Kiero
2010-05-10, 05:36 PM
I'm not saying you shouldn't set an ambush - but you do have to set an ambush, not just fire wildly at people you can't even reach. Moving into superior combat positions, hiding to get the extra Standard from the surprise round, or even just scouting out the enemy are all better ideas than hoping to roll a 20.

Aside from some special cases (Fighters using Ranged marking, opponents with no ranged attacks) it's just a better idea to aim for the free Standard Action and Combat Advantage or getting into a position where you can use your actual class power.

Why move and expose yourself to fire when you can sit behind cover shooting at a foe who's coming to you?

Why would there only be hits on a 20?


Also: why did the gnolls attack you instead of moving away? If they're scouts and didn't want to attack anyways, they should have ignored your wild shots and reported your position. This is just one example where shooting wildly shouldn't have been a good idea.

In fact, I can only see a few times where arming PCs with Crossbows or Longbows is a good idea:
- repelling a frontal attack from a fortified position
- drawing an enemy into an ambush (when a Ranger isn't around)
- as a sneaky trick to make your opponent underestimate you

They attacked because they were overconfident having just participated in a major raid of the Dale. They saw four humanoids in their territory and figured they could handle them. Plus they were probably hungry and thought more meat for the pot.

We don't play as a metagame of perfect information on both sides where the players match wits with the GM.

Kylarra
2010-05-10, 06:01 PM
Wizards and Clerics should have ranged spells. There's no reason for either to carry a longbow.Thus the confusion with the situation at hand.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 06:02 PM
Why move and expose yourself to fire when you can sit behind cover shooting at a foe who's coming to you?

Why would there only be hits on a 20?
Why fire and expose your position while your opponent is at extreme range? :smalltongue:

The "1 in 20" comment is a bit of an exaggeration, but not much.
Even with a DEX 14, it is going to be increasingly difficult for PCs firing non-magical crossbows to hit anything. Monster defenses assume a certain amount of magic (or inherent) bonuses, as well as an attack stat of a given number - both of which are set to increase as you level.

Obviously I haven't run the math, but a Human Guard (LV 3 Soldier) has AC 18. Firing at extreme range (-2) you can only hit on a 15+ (at LV 3). A Hobgoblin Commander (LV 5 Soldier) has AC 23 (Phalanx bonus); at LV 5 you would need a 19-20 to hit him at extreme range. And so on.

And, of course, Elites and Solos have even higher defenses.


They attacked because they were overconfident having just participated in a major raid of the Dale. They saw four humanoids in their territory and figured they could handle them. Plus they were probably hungry and thought more meat for the pot.

We don't play as a metagame of perfect information on both sides where the players match wits with the GM.
Ah, so you were using your crappy shooting to lull them into a false sense of security :smalltongue:

All I'm saying is that aside from a very small set of situations, there is going to be a better use of your time and resources than wildly firing crossbows.

If none of the above convinces you, then I don't know what to say. If any of my PCs tried your tactics against monsters with ranged attacks (like Hobgoblin Archers) I'd just shake my head and take them apart.

N.B. Hobgoblin Archers (Artillery 3) attack at +9 v. AC (+11 on occasion) and do 1d10+4 damage per hit. They use Longbows, too. With Crossbows you'd need to get within 12 to shoot at a -2 (for Longbows that's short range) while the Archers can fire at 20 without penalty. It's just a losing proposition.

Kiero
2010-05-10, 06:10 PM
Well an immediate problem with your maths is that we were playing magical bonuses attached to the character, rather than carrying around boring items that just have enhancement bonuses on them. Any weapon any of the PCs picked up was considered to be a +2 item.

How were they to know only my Ranger character was genuinely dangerous at that range?

Again, our GM didn't play it as a metagame where he "beats" our tactics based on what he could see. But rather played our opponents as they might approach the situation with their understanding of what's going on.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-10, 06:28 PM
Well an immediate problem with your maths is that we were playing magical bonuses attached to the character, rather than carrying around boring items that just have enhancement bonuses on them. Any weapon any of the PCs picked up was considered to be a +2 item.

How were they to know only my Ranger character was genuinely dangerous at that range?

Again, our GM didn't play it as a metagame where he "beats" our tactics based on what he could see. But rather played our opponents as they might approach the situation with their understanding of what's going on.
This really isn't a metagame question! Honest!

Look, you have a Gnoll Advance Party - flush with victory yet hungry for more. They're walking on patrol and suddenly a few bolts fly past their head and a pair of arrows sink into one of them. Immediately they spot their attackers and charge to meet them. The crossbows don't seem to be doing much damage but that damn longbow is doing some serious harm - so the shaman throws up some cover.

Now, one of two things could have happened. In one, the gnolls show up with some incidental damage and one guy bloodied (your ranger's pincushion). If you're using Crossbows, they get there in at most 2 turns (see spoiler)
Crossbows have a maximum range of 12, and Gnoll Marauders (LV 6 Brute) are Move 7. Even assuming difficult terrain the whole way (24 squares of movement) the overconfident Gnolls would be Double Running (Move 7+2) which gets them 9 squares on their first turn, and they Move + Charge on their second.
so you get in maybe two rounds of shooting by forfeiting any chance of your allies attacking from Hiding with a useful power. Or, better yet, Readying an attack to slow down / nuke the Gnolls when they get into range.

The second outcome is that there is some sort of obstacle (a cliff wall or deep river) which keeps the Gnolls bogged down. They're still taking minor damage from crossbows but by now the Ranger has dropped one of them and maybe bloodied another. Out of sheer self-preservation they should have fled, knowing you couldn't catch them, instead of mucking around and soaking up damage. I mean, they see that the Ranger is competent and dangerous - if they can't get to him without taking serious harm, how the hell are they going to win when he's backed up by three of his buddies?

Contrast that with this set-up
The Ranger moves into a good position for shooting while the rest of the party Hides in the terrain around him. The Ranger fires off a volley to get the attention of the Gnolls. Seeing a single opponent, they charge up to him. Even if they take casualties, "it's only one guy" so they press on.

Finally, they reach the Ranger who, triumphantly, shouts "NOW" as his allies move from cover, surrounding the Gnoll warband. Maybe they fight, maybe they panic and run, but in either case they're going to have a heck of a time escaping your trap.
I think you are underestimating the value of surprise and misdirection.

EDIT: Regarding the math, a +2 bonus still doesn't make up for the lack of attribute or feat bonuses to attack. So your 19-20 becomes a 17+ at LV 8(?); how does that help you against a Flameskull (Artillery 8)?

Now you have a +8 vs. AC trying to hit AC 21 (23 at 10 squares). So you need a 15+ to hit someone who is shooting you with +12 vs. Reflex for 2d6+6 damage. Did I mention he has Regeneration 5?

Kiero
2010-05-13, 06:45 PM
Still got a while before this character has to be finished, and I'm considering an alternative: a spearman (or whatever the reach weapon is, I believe it's a glaive-fighter). How might I rework Feats, Powers and maybe class features to play a spearman? Would I still be a weapon-and-shield sort? Or is a reach build completely different?

I seem to have a deep-seated ambivalence towards swordsmen, and I'm getting a little hesitation about playing a twin-sword dude, even though he's mechanically sword-and-board. Non-swordsmen don't get enough love.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-13, 06:54 PM
How might I rework Feats, Powers and maybe class features to play a spearman? Would I still be a weapon-and-shield sort? Or is a reach build completely different?
It's somewhat different, in that pretty much all reach weapons are two-handed and thus cannot be used with a shield.

tcrudisi
2010-05-13, 07:28 PM
Comeback strike is your safety net. If the encounter is so tough that the cleric uses all his healing, and there are still monsters around, Comeback strike might be what will save the day. And it comes with a reliable tag.

It goes beyond that. You won't be able to keep all the monsters on you. Sometimes your other allies take a lot of damage quickly and the healer (cleric) runs out of healing keeping your allies alive. Then there's nothing left for you. In fact -- this just happened in the session that I DM'ed a couple of days ago. It wasn't pretty and the tank had no way to heal himself, so he went down like an apple on a tree over Isaac Newton. The only reason he did not die was DM fiat. It was a tough encounter, but it just goes to prove that everyone needs a way to heal themselves in a pinch. Healing Potions are nice, but often inadequate at level 8.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-13, 07:31 PM
it just goes to prove that everyone needs a way to heal themselves in a pinch. Healing Potions are nice, but often inadequate at level 8.
Sure, but that doesn't mean you need to spend one of your precious few daily powers on that. There are plenty of utility powers (both from the fighter list and skill powers) that do that more effectively, and MC'ing into warlord is a viable option as well.

Yes, self-healing is useful. No, that is not sufficient to make comeback strike a good power.

tcrudisi
2010-05-13, 07:58 PM
Sure, but that doesn't mean you need to spend one of your precious few daily powers on that. There are plenty of utility powers (both from the fighter list and skill powers) that do that more effectively, and MC'ing into warlord is a viable option as well.

Yes, self-healing is useful. No, that is not sufficient to make comeback strike a good power.

I agree completely. My argument is not that Comeback Strike is a good power (it's an okay power), but rather that each character needs a way to heal themselves (or someone else) in a pinch. My group is level 3, so their options are very limited. Ironically, the Fighter had Villain's Menace but he went down because he had no way of healing himself (he had already used his second wind). In this specific case: level 3 so not enough feats to get a heal MC and no real power choices, I think that Comeback Strike is slightly better than Villains Menace. At level 8 when you've got a few feats to work with and a lot more power choices? Well, Villains Menace is the clear winner.

Also, Keiro, there's a feat which lets you use a spear and a shield and use Cleave to great effect. It's name slips my memory now, but it lets you turn Cleave into a double-attacking power. It's very good, especially since attacking twice is what you want to do every round (to mark more targets). It doesn't give you reach, though.

Tehnar
2010-05-13, 08:09 PM
It really depends on the way your DM sets up encounters. VM is a good choice for a daily, but when I played with it, I was often (almost always) saving it up for a boss type encounter. If such a encounter never came then that daily was essentially wasted.

When I retrained it, it was often put to good use. In some encounters using up your dwarven armor daily, unbreakable, your multiclass warlord feat and your second wind is not enough. A timely comeback strike may keep you alive long enough to hold the line for a round or two so your party has a better chance to win the encounter.

Now I am basing this on heroic tier experience. In paragon and beyond your utilities provide other ways to trigger healing surges, and your leaders also have more options to trigger them. In heroic tier however, your ways to trigger a healing surge are limited and regaining ~20 hp is sometimes much better then doing ~10 extra damage to one monster. Ultimately it all depends on your DM play style.


As for the polearm build, I haven't had much experience with it. I know it kicks off at paragon tier though, and I think the OP is interested in heroic.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-14, 04:14 AM
As for the polearm build, I haven't had much experience with it. I know it kicks off at paragon tier though, and I think the OP is interested in heroic.

It kicks off perfectly fine at level one as well, because reach is a very useful option to have. (of course it gets improved by certain paragon feats; but then, what doesn't?)

Coidzor
2010-05-14, 04:21 AM
It kicks off perfectly fine at level one as well, because reach is a very useful option to have. (of course it gets improved by certain paragon feats; but then, what doesn't?)

It's just there's no synergy with powers or feats until one has leveled up a fair bit, or at least, that's the way it seems.

The only synergy before Paragon I've seen mentioned so far involved a magic item (Rushing Cleats, I believe... might even have been you who mentioned it) and Footwork Lure.

Reach really doesn't seem as useful due to the ease with which one closes to enemies/has them close. Not really sure how to think about it, but it just seems like the lack of opportunity attacks/ability to threaten squares reached that it mainly lets one attack a nearby enemy without shifting while adjacent to another enemy or have to charge 1 square less at low levels.

It really does feel like I'm missing something major here.

Kurald Galain
2010-05-14, 04:39 AM
Reach really doesn't seem as useful due to the ease with which one closes to enemies/has them close.
That depends. For instance, if you're immobilized or dazed, or if there is something or someone in the way, you can still attack from a square away. If you use multi-hit powers like passing attack, this lets you still hit people if they're farther apart.

It's not a huge benefit, but you don't lose out on much either by not dual-wielding or not using a shield.

Kiero
2010-05-14, 05:37 AM
Would I be better off if I can use a shield as well? Or just focus on being a two-hander with a glaive?

What Feats and Powers do I need to be a glaive-user? I'm presuming it's not the same as a Guardian Fighter.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-14, 11:03 AM
That depends. For instance, if you're immobilized or dazed, or if there is something or someone in the way, you can still attack from a square away. If you use multi-hit powers like passing attack, this lets you still hit people if they're farther apart.

It's not a huge benefit, but you don't lose out on much either by not dual-wielding or not using a shield.
And don't forget that, as a Fighter, this allows you to use your Combat Challenge on non-adjacent enemies you have marked - scary!

Plus there are nice little things - like being able to smack a distant non-minion with Cleave and dump the STR damage into an adjacent minion.

EDIT: Unfortunately, Glaves are pretty crappy polearms in 4e. Halberds are always nice - and then you can also Brash Strike with them.

Kiero
2010-05-14, 07:10 PM
Sounds like the polearm is a no-goer.

Here's my present build:



level 8
Human, Fighter
Build: Guardian Fighter
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
Background: Aglarond (Aglarond Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 26 Fort: 23 Reflex: 21 Will: 20
HP: 71 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +12, Perception +13, Endurance +9, Athletics +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +7, History +4, Insight +7, Intimidate +4, Nature +7, Religion +4, Stealth +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +4

FEATS
Human: Human Perseverance
Level 1: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Shield Push
Level 6: Shield Defense
Level 8: Improved Initiative

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Tide of Iron
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter encounter 1: Shield Riposte
Fighter daily 1: Villain's Menace
Fighter utility 2: Endure Pain
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Unbreakable
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It

ITEMS
Fighting Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Demonscale Drakescale Armor +2, Amulet of Physical Resolve +2, Distance Javelin +1, Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (5), Catstep Boots (heroic tier), Dread Longsword +2


What about a Tempest? I remember seeing something about twin-shortsword Tempest being alright. Are they light armour only?

Here's first cuts of two of the other three characters I have to work with:


Abraxas, level 8
Tiefling, Psion
Discipline Focus: Telekinesis Focus
Background: Birth - Cursed (+2 to Bluff)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 20, Wis 18, Cha 14.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12.


AC: 21 Fort: 18 Reflex: 21 Will: 23
HP: 52 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 13

TRAINED SKILLS
Insight +13, Perception +13, Arcana +14, Bluff +15, Streetwise +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +8, Endurance +5, Heal +8, History +9, Intimidate +6, Nature +8, Religion +9, Stealth +6, Thievery +4, Athletics +3

FEATS
Psion: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Precise Mind
Level 2: Implement Expertise (Staff)
Level 4: Fervent Talent
Level 6: Ferocious Rebuke
Level 8: Scion of the Gods

POWERS
Psion at-will 1: Force Punch
Psion at-will 1: Kinetic Trawl
Psion daily 1: Telekinetic Anchor
Psion utility 2: Telekinetic Lift
Psion at-will 3: Force Hammer
Psion daily 5: Telekinetic Maul
Psion utility 6: Telekinetic Screen
Psion at-will 7: Dread Spiral (replaces Force Punch)

ITEMS
Staff of Forceful Rebuking +2, Bracers of Escape (heroic tier), Resilience Amulet +2, Magic Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2, Ritual Book, Alchemical Reagents (Arcana) (175)
RITUALS
Tenser's Floating Disk, Comprehend Language, Silence, Wizard's Curtain, Last Sight Vision, Detect Secret Doors, Dark Light



level 8
Dragonborn, Barbarian
Feral Might: Thaneborn Triumph
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Strength
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Poison

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 12.


AC: 20 Fort: 24 Reflex: 17 Will: 19
HP: 70 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 18

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +14, Endurance +9, Athletics +14, Diplomacy +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +4, Bluff +7, Dungeoneering +3, Heal +3, History +6, Insight +3, Nature +3, Perception +3, Religion +4, Stealth +3, Streetwise +7, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Axe)
Level 2: Bardic Dilettante
Level 4: Defensive Mobility
Level 6: Impending Victory
Level 8: Inspiring Triumph

POWERS
Barbarian at-will 1: Howling Strike
Barbarian at-will 1: Pressing Strike
Barbarian encounter 1: Escalating Violence
Barbarian daily 1: Savage Juggernaut Rage
Barbarian utility 2: Shrug It Off
Barbarian encounter 3: Brutal Slam
Barbarian daily 5: Silver Phoenix Rage
Barbarian utility 6: Stirring Speech
Barbarian encounter 7: Great Shout

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Vanguard Greataxe +2, Marauder's Hide Armor +2, Raven Cloak +2, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Escape Tattoo (heroic tier)

People keep talking about Warlord multiclass, what would be the advantage in that?

Kiero
2010-05-15, 06:08 AM
I'm actually looking a little at Warrior of the Wild to get Stealth since our group lacks it altogether. Kind of fits with being a forest-based warrior too.

Question is around the check penalty for a shield, that only applies while the shield is being used, right?

Coidzor
2010-05-15, 07:55 AM
People keep talking about Warlord multiclass, what would be the advantage in that?

Greater power selection and potential versatility... I don't know the ideal combos for the Fighter with Warlord MC though, sorry.

I believe the biggest advantage is to add some healing and thus staying power to your fighter in his defender role and the ability to help others in a pinch. Mostly the former though, from what I've read on the boards.


I'm actually looking a little at Warrior of the Wild to get Stealth since our group lacks it altogether. Kind of fits with being a forest-based warrior too.

Question is around the check penalty for a shield, that only applies while the shield is being used, right?

You do not take a check penalty if you are not wearing the shield, no. You're also going to be wearing as heavy of armor as possible as a sword and boarder, so that'll be a more on-going check penalty unless you want to spend your armor enchantment on something that'll make scale/plate stealthy... Unless you're going to have a high enough dexterity to make light armor work (16 dex to match scale if wearing hide armor, 18 dex to match plate if wearing hide).

Yakk
2010-05-15, 08:12 AM
Ironically, the Fighter had Villain's Menace but he went down because he had no way of healing himself (he had already used his second wind).
If he had a way of healing himself, and Menace, he'd be better off.

But without Menace, the what, 9 HP you gain from comeback at level 3? That is 1 attack nullified. A good use of Menace makes you take more than 1 attack less.

VM is a good choice for a daily, but when I played with it, I was often (almost always) saving it up for a boss type encounter. If such a encounter never came then that daily was essentially wasted.

When I retrained it, it was often put to good use.
Your choice to not use VM on a normal opponent is your choice.

Using VM on a bog-standard creature will help drop that creature as well.

And don't forget that, as a Fighter, this allows you to use your Combat Challenge on non-adjacent enemies you have marked - scary!
No, forget that. Because it doesn't work that way. (well, sort of use-- they get marked, but you cannot restrict their actions that much).

---

Tempest gets damage bonuses from light armor or chainmail.

16+2 str, 16 dex, 14 wis is a pretty standard tempest build. Wear hide, and you start with 17 AC (you get TWD for a feat). Pick up the double sword and get 18 AC.

Kiero
2010-05-15, 08:23 AM
You do not take a check penalty if you are not wearing the shield, no. You're also going to be wearing as heavy of armor as possible as a sword and boarder, so that'll be a more on-going check penalty unless you want to spend your armor enchantment on something that'll make scale/plate stealthy... Unless you're going to have a high enough dexterity to make light armor work (16 dex to match scale if wearing hide armor, 18 dex to match plate if wearing hide).

Scale doesn't give a check penalty, only the heavy shield does. The issue with heavy armour is moving slower.


Tempest gets damage bonuses from light armor or chainmail.

16+2 str, 16 dex, 14 wis is a pretty standard tempest build. Wear hide, and you start with 17 AC (you get TWD for a feat). Pick up the double sword and get 18 AC.

Chain is skill penalty territory, I'm not sure I want to go down the lighter-armoured route when we already have a lightly-armoured Barbarian.

There are no conditions under which I'd ever be prepared to use a double weapon. :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2010-05-15, 08:39 AM
Scale doesn't give a check penalty, only the heavy shield does. The issue with heavy armour is moving slower.

Sorry. I looked over at the page and then it all jumped back out at me. Sad thing is, I had opened up to that page with the armor table on it in order to double check whether it directly addressed when the shield's armor check applied.


There are no conditions under which I'd ever be prepared to use a double weapon. :smalltongue:

Why's that? Find them too silly?

Kiero
2010-05-15, 11:29 AM
Yep, I think double weapons are stupid.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-15, 11:49 AM
No, forget that. Because it doesn't work that way. (well, sort of use-- they get marked, but you cannot restrict their actions that much).
Foo, how had I misread Combat Challenge for so long? Here I thought it was shifts/attacks within weapon reach, not adjacent :smallfrown:

Kiero
2010-05-18, 05:25 PM
And at last we have the final character of the group, a Wemic (reskinned Longtooth Shifter) Runepriest:


level 8
Longtooth Shifter, Runepriest
Runic Artistry: Defiant Word
Background: Occupation - Hunter (+2 to Perception)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.


AC: 25 Fort: 21 Reflex: 20 Will: 21
HP: 59 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +9, Thievery +13, Heal +12, Athletics +18, Acrobatics +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +9, History +4, Insight +7, Intimidate +3, Nature +7, Perception +9, Stealth +7, Streetwise +3

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Spear)
Level 2: Rune of Hope
Level 4: Rune of Zeal
Level 6: Courageous Example
Level 8: Warrior of the Wild

POWERS
Runepriest at-will 1: Word of Exchange
Runepriest at-will 1: Word of Binding
Runepriest encounter 1: Anvil of Battle
Runepriest daily 1: Rune of Iron's Rebuke
Runepriest utility 2: Shield of Sacrifice
Runepriest encounter 3: Word of Alliance
Runepriest daily 5: Cage of Light
Runepriest utility 6: Swift Recovery
Runepriest encounter 7: Word of Befuddlement

ITEMS
Inspiring Spear +2, Verve Drakescale Armor +2, Amulet of Elegy +2, Shield of Protection Light Shield (heroic tier), Burglar's Gloves (heroic tier), Potion of Resistance (heroic tier) (3), Lesser Elixir of Invisibility (heroic tier), Belt of Vigor (heroic tier), Gem of Colloquy (heroic tier), Holy Water (level 6) (4), Javelin