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Optimystik
2010-05-07, 08:33 AM
This is a short question, but one that's always bugged me. Many times in CharOp I've seen claims that Casters can emulate psionics via Wish, Limited Wish and Miracle, and that Psions can do the reverse via Bend Reality and Reality Revision.

But how is this possible? Powers aren't spells, so the "cast any spell" clause on Wish/Miracle shouldn't work, and spells aren't powers, so the reverse shouldn't work either.

What am I missing?

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-07, 08:39 AM
This is a short question, but one that's always bugged me. Many times in CharOp I've seen claims that Casters can emulate psionics via Wish, Limited Wish and Miracle, and that Psions can do the reverse via Bend Reality and Reality Revision.

But how is this possible? Powers aren't spells, so the "cast any spell" clause on Wish/Miracle shouldn't work, and spells aren't powers, so the reverse shouldn't work either.

What am I missing?

Assumed transparency. It says you can cast certain spells via Wish etc, so people assume you can also manifest equal powers in the same way. It's how I see them.

Yora
2010-05-07, 08:44 AM
What you are missing is RAI.

Yes, by RAW wish works only with spells, but at the time of writing "spells" included all abilities that work like spells. The term "powers" didn't exist at that time.
And given that a game uses full magic-psionic transparency, it seems very likely that the intention of wish would be, that it works with all effects that are almost completely like spells, but may have a different name.
Also, wish doesn't allow you to cast a spell, but duplicate it's effect. You can also chose effects for which no actual spell exist. Duplicating any spell of up to 6th level is just a guideline what kinds of effects the wish spell could have.

That's what I think wish is supposed to work like.

Lapak
2010-05-07, 09:39 AM
Also, wish doesn't allow you to cast a spell, but duplicate it's effect. You can also chose effects for which no actual spell exist. Duplicating any spell of up to 6th level is just a guideline what kinds of effects the wish spell could have.

That's what I think wish is supposed to work like.This. Wish is supposed to be able to accomplish anything that falls within its general power level. Since level 6 psionic powers are roughly equivalent in power to level 6 spells, allowing wish to emulate them is squarely within the bounds of the spell regardless of psionics/magic transparency in a given campaign. The most appealing feature of the spell (as it comes into play as a spell, rather than a character-enhancer) is to trade a higher-level slot for a 'do anything' slot with less raw power.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 09:42 AM
So, it works because when Wish was written, "powers" were not conceived...

I can sort of see the logic, but it seems to stretch the bounds of what constitutes "transparency." I mean, the Wish isn't actually "affecting" the powers, just emulatinig them, so transparency shouldn't apply.

What brought this to mind was a thread on BG in which people were claiming a Shadowcraft Mage could Shadow Miracle and out-Psion a Psion. I just don't see that being RAW.

EDIT: And how would this apply to augmentation?

Flickerdart
2010-05-07, 09:47 AM
While it's not explicitly spelled out, one could still reasonably Wish to have a high-level power manifest. It's not beyond the spell's power in any way. One could also wish for an invocation, an utterance or even a soulmeld. It's Wish. It can do a lot of stuff.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 09:48 AM
It's not beyond their power, certainly, but the argument seems to be that they fall under the listed effects (and are thus safe from DM screw) when RAW seems to be that they aren't.

The same goes for Miracle, except substitute "XP cost" for "DM screw."

Draz74
2010-05-07, 09:51 AM
Query: If it's really intended for transparency to cover this stuff, then why does Bend Reality explicitly forbid duplicating Spells?

(As DM, I would ignore that line ... but would restrict the duplicated spells to lower levels than duplicated powers. Same thing in the other direction. But now we're into houserules.)

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-07, 09:57 AM
Query: If it's really intended for transparency to cover this stuff, then why does Bend Reality explicitly forbid duplicating Spells?

(As DM, I would ignore that line ... but would restrict the duplicated spells to lower levels than duplicated powers. Same thing in the other direction. But now we're into houserules.)

I'd forgotten that. Guess they aren't assumed to duplicate transparently.

I'd still allow it, but I guess for Char Op there's no basis for it.

Optimystik
2010-05-07, 09:58 AM
Hmm... but below that is another line:

"When bend reality duplicates a spell with a material component, you must pay additional XP equal to the value of the material component divided by 5."

This is confusing.

I think "(but not a spell)" trumps that line - it is a more specific denial than the permission above. Ugh, WotC editors.