Question about Dragonborn.

[Mystic Muse]

I have a question about something I'd like to run by my DM. My Character will eventually become a Dragonborn. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1)*. I'm wondering what the playground would say is a fair cost for all three abilities? 1 LA? 2? none? Now there are a few things you should be aware of.
1. I'm a human so I lose all benefits from my original race. (wasn't aware of that when I chose human.)
2. I'm almost positive LA buyoff is allowed.
3. I won't be getting the template until at least 12th level.

Anything else? Or should I just give up on this? If I'm going to run this by him I want it to be a fair price that he has some chance of accepting.
*3.5 came up with Dragonboobs first. Stop blaming 4e

[Keld Denar]

Your human bonus feat and bonus skill points are considered racial, so you'd lose them. As far as picking up all 3 aspects, yea, that would probably be about a +1. You probably don't need all 3 though, depending on your build/gear/spells/etc.

[Mystic Muse]

Your human bonus feat and bonus skill points are considered racial, so you'd lose them. As far as picking up all 3 aspects, yea, that would probably be about a +1. You probably don't need all 3 though, depending on your build/gear/spells/etc.

It's really for character concept more than anything. The group isn't exceedingly optimized so I'm not worried about the LA

[The Cat Goddess]

For all three aspects? I'd suspect that +1 LA for each additional aspect would be reasonably fair for a total LA of +2.

This is based in comparison to the Half-Dragon template (which is +3). By level 18 you've got a breath weapon that does the same damage and that you can use many times (compared to once per day). You don't have an energy immunity, but your darkvision has twice the range and you get Blindsense. Your Fly speed isn't as good, but you don't have to be Large to get Wings like a Half-Dragon does. You don't get the really good Stat bonuses or Natural Armor (which is really odd, when you look at the images...), but that's why you're 1 LA less.

[Mystic Muse]

For all three aspects? I'd suspect that +1 LA for each additional aspect would be reasonably fair for a total LA of +2.

This is based in comparison to the Half-Dragon template (which is +3). By level 18 you've got a breath weapon that does the same damage and that you can use many times (compared to once per day). You don't have an energy immunity, but your darkvision has twice the range and you get Blindsense. Your Fly speed isn't as good, but you don't have to be Large to get Wings like a Half-Dragon does. You don't get the really good Stat bonuses or Natural Armor (which is really odd, when you look at the images...), but that's why you're 1 LA less.

well, a few points of contention.
1. That's level 18 which is 10 levels past where we are right now.
2. Our half dragon can use his breath weapon the same amount (there's a feat for that actually) he does have wings (permanencied enlarge person) and he got the template for +1 LA.
3. blindsense doesn't seem like it can actually do a whole lot. I'm still trying to figure out what it actually does other than make it so you know somebody is within 30 feet. That's also 7 levels above where we currently are.

[Mando Knight]

LA is horrible, and Half-Dragon is generally not worth its own LA. Thus, a 3-Aspect Dragonborn might be a moderately high-powered LA +1, but I'd never give it a +2.

[Douglas]

3. blindsense doesn't seem like it can actually do a whole lot. I'm still trying to figure out what it actually does other than make it so you know somebody is within 30 feet. That's also 7 levels above where we currently are.
You know somebody's within X distance, and you know which 5' square(s) he's in. You still suffer any miss chance for concealment, but you don't have to guess where to aim your attacks and it's a lot harder to sneak up on you.

[The Cat Goddess]

well, a few points of contention.
1. That's level 18 which is 10 levels past where we are right now.
2. Our half dragon can use his breath weapon the same amount (there's a feat for that actually) he does have wings (permanencied enlarge person) and he got the template for +1 LA.
3. blindsense doesn't seem like it can actually do a whole lot. I'm still trying to figure out what it actually does other than make it so you know somebody is within 30 feet. That's also 7 levels above where we currently are.

1) True... but at level 12 (when you're saying you'll get it) you will have flight, you will have darkvision 120' and you will have a 4d8 breath weapon (which you can increase in power with feats). Oh, and you don't need to spend a precious feat to use your breath weapon multiple times per day.

2) Enlarge Person (by RAW) doesn't work on a Half Dragon (they're Dragon type, not Humanoid type)... and besides, even if it did, the Half Dragon wouldn't suddenly sprout wings by becoming Large since the size of his base type wasn't Large. As for the DM house-ruling the Half-Dragon Template to be only +1... then by my calculations the Dragonborn with all aspects should be +0 and standard PH races should be LA -2 (at least -1)! Of course, it makes people who don't take those kinds of races/templates idiots... How much LA would they require for a Half-Ogre (normally LA +2)?

3) Blindsense means always knowing "there's someone invisible and they're in that square right there". Arguably, Blindsense would allow an AoO against an invisible opponent (with the 50% miss chance, of course) who provokes one. It also means that area attacks will hit the invisible guy near you, because you'll know exactly where to target them (or tell your party where to target). While not as great as Blindsight, it is pretty useful.

[Mystic Muse]

1) True... but at level 12 (when you're saying you'll get it) you will have flight, you will have darkvision 120' and you will have a 4d8 breath weapon (which you can increase in power with feats). Oh, and you don't need to spend a precious feat to use your breath weapon multiple times per day.
Well, like I said, the group in general doesn't care much about optimization. The guy who plays the Half dragon doesn't even plan on his character a level in advance.



2) Enlarge Person (by RAW) doesn't work on a Half Dragon (they're Dragon type, not Humanoid type)... and besides, even if it did, the Half Dragon wouldn't suddenly sprout wings by becoming Large since the size of his base type wasn't Large. As for the DM house-ruling the Half-Dragon Template to be only +1... then by my calculations the Dragonborn with all aspects should be +0 and standard PH races should be LA -2 (at least -1)! Of course, it makes people who don't take those kinds of races/templates idiots... How much LA would they require for a Half-Ogre (normally LA +2)?
Huh. You're right about Enlarge person not working on a Half dragon. The wings part was a ruling by the DM. I don't know whether I should bring that up or not. Maybe I'll message the player about that. I think the DM just did that because he was the only one who wasn't going to have some form of flight soon.

I didn't take half dragon because I didn't even know the LA was getting reduced to 1 until I asked about it. At that point I believe my character was already introduced and was human.


3) Blindsense means always knowing "there's someone invisible and they're in that square right there". Arguably, Blindsense would allow an AoO against an invisible opponent (with the 50% miss chance, of course) who provokes one. It also means that area attacks will hit the invisible guy near you, because you'll know exactly where to target them (or tell your party where to target). While not as great as Blindsight, it is pretty useful.

Yeah, I guess that's true. However, it's kind of irrelevant since I'm getting a cohort next level with blindsense 60. (forgot to mention that. Sowwy.)

[The Cat Goddess]

What it boils down to (as I mentioned) is that if Half-Dragon is ECL 1, then full-aspect Dragonborn is ECL 0 because of the huge stat advantage for the Half-Dragon.

Of course... technically, your Half-Dragon buddy could become a Dragonborn. His breath weapon would change, he would retain his current wings and flight-speed... He'd lose his energy immunity and probably lose his bite & claw attacks (again, odd given the illustrations used for the Dragonborn)

He'd stay Dragon type and be (Dragonblood) subtype oddly enough... :smallconfused:

In addition to whatever favored class he has now, he'd gain Fighter as a favored class... :smallannoyed:

The big killer though... would be losing the +4 Natural Armor. :smallmad:

Of course, he could be a Half-Dragon Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept with a Dragonscale Husk and... oh, whatever. :smallbiggrin:

[Mystic Muse]

What it boils down to (as I mentioned) is that if Half-Dragon is ECL 1, then full-aspect Dragonborn is ECL 0 because of the huge stat advantage for the Half-Dragon. That's a good point. I'll bring this up when asking my DM for this.



Of course... technically, your Half-Dragon buddy could become a Dragonborn. His breath weapon would change, he would retain his current wings and flight-speed... He'd lose his energy immunity and probably lose his bite & claw attacks (again, odd given the illustrations used for the Dragonborn) I don't think he's ever used his bite or claw attacks and whatever dragon he chose (not quite sure but it was something lung) doesn't get an immunity anyway.



In addition to whatever favored class he has now, he'd gain Fighter as a favored class... :smallannoyed: Don't think it matters. The DM doesn't use the favored class mechanic and AFAIK the guy is going straight Monk. (the class had nothing to do with the decision to make it 1 LA though. Trust me)


The big killer though... would be losing the +4 Natural Armor. :smallmad:
Yeah, that is a killer.