Any martial artists in the Playground?

[Bhu]

I'm making a class involving Te, Taijutsu, and Jujutsu, and I wanted some advice on books or websites I could use for making maneuvers, feats, etc.

[Castaras]

Hi, I'm a student of Wado Ryu Karate - two belts off of black.

http://www.nakmas.org.uk/ <- National Association of Karate and Martial Arts Schools

http://www.wado-ryu.jp/home1/home1.htm <- International Federation of Wado-Ryu Karate-Do Organizations

Hope those help, most of what I've been learning is going to a karate club for the past few years.

[Pahvimato]

Hello. I am a student of Hokutoryu Ju-Jutsu (''Northern Star Style''), but as that is mainly practised only in Finland, and thus our site is in finnish, here is a link (this site has other links which you can check out) that tells you about Jiu-Jitsu in general:

Jiu-Jitsu International (http://www.jiu-jitsu-international.net/)

From there you will find general information about Jiu-Jitsu and links to the major european styles (most of them can be viewed in english, and most of them also have videos and pictures).
---------------------------------------------------------------------
But I have to say I think we have one of the best videos and pictures, I can try to get you to them:

For Pictures:
Hokutoryu Ju-Jutsu pics (http://www.hokutoryu.com/kuvat.html)

Click the yellow links to see the pictures. Most of them are from our camps.

For Videos:
Hokutoryu Ju-Jutsu vids (http://www.hokutoryu.com/video.html)

You can see the few videos we have in there.

Hope it helps!

[endoperez]

I'm making a class involving Te, Taijutsu, and Jujutsu, and I wanted some advice on books or websites I could use for making maneuvers, feats, etc.

Youtube can get you lots of techniques, if you are interested in visual references, and know a few searching tricks.

You have to find the right search terms. "kick" is bad, "strike" is bad. You want something that's as specific to the martial art as you can get. Say, searching for "yokomen" or "yokomenuchi" (aikido term for a strike to the side of the head) will get you lots of fairly specific results. You might get other martial arts that use the same term, but it should be a similar move.

This only works if there are terms specific to the moves you want to see, but judo and karate are also similar in that regard so I guess it's not that rare in Japanese martial arts.
If the martial arts are mostly found in Japan and don't have English-speaking practitioners, you'd have to search using the Japanese characters and not the romanizations. You don't have to understand the symbols as long as you find ones that get you results, keep looking at the tags! A well-tagged video allows you to find dozens of others, even if you don't know what the tags mean.
Wikipedia can be useful. As an example, with just few minutes I found out the term koppojutsu (koppōjutsu), that means the breaking of bones, and the Japanese characters for it: 骨法術. With that, you can start searching for more stuff, and then I can start iterating through "gohon me" and "seiteigata" and so on.

[golentan]

Karate, Aikido, and Fencing.

What? Fencing is a martial art.

[Project_Mayhem]

I consider myself a master of cunnili...

Oh, 'martial' arts. Never mind.

[Mando Knight]

Sorry, Project Mayhem. He has no need for... clever translators.:smallwink:

[Project_Mayhem]

I'll just go back to being a ... skilled interlocutor

[Catch]

Oh, 'martial' arts. Never mind.

In the den of some women I've known, it is. :smallamused:

More to the point, I've studied Wing Tsun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Tsun), specifically the EBMAS system adapted by Emin Boztepe, which includes weapons training in Escrima. I've also worked with the longsword section of Fiore dei Liberi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiore_dei_liberi)'s Fior di Battaglia.

Most official websites for varying martial arts will have the precepts of their style, and as previous posters have suggested, there are numerous YouTube videos of an instructional nature, especially regarding specific techniques.

[Bhu]

Thanks guys.

[rakkoon]

I'm still doing Ninpo (Ninjutsu) and there are some youtube links on our main site (http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl) for inspiration.
Some traditional taijutsu on there from several original styles.

[katans]

A few "good" names for some of the disciplines you're interested in, feel free to goggle/youtube to your heart's content.
- Ninjutsu: Kacem Zoughari, Hatsumi Sensei, Nogushi Sensei
- Aikido: Leo Tamaki, Seichiro Endo Sensei, Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei, André Nocquet Sensei
- Karate: Ibrahim El Marhomy Sensei, Idetaka Nishiyama Sensei
- Jujutsu: Stefano Surace (OK, just kidding :smallbiggrin:)

[Arakune]

Why most martial arts sites are that terrible :smallfrown:?

Anyway, info about hapki-do (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido), video1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOCgfuajpJs), video2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHiKzj_8R7U&feature=related)

Sorry but I don't know about any U.S.A/Europe/Australia (most popular choices) sites for you.


A few "good" names for some of the disciplines you're interested in, feel free to goggle/youtube to your heart's content.
- Ninjutsu: Kacem Zoughari, Hatsumi Sensei, Nogushi Sensei
- Aikido: Leo Tamaki, Seichiro Endo Sensei, Nobuyoshi Tamura Sensei, André Nocquet Sensei, Steven Seagal
- Karate: Ibrahim El Marhomy Sensei, Idetaka Nishiyama Sensei
- Taekwon Do: Chuck Norris
- Jujutsu: Stefano Surace (OK, just kidding :smallbiggrin:)

[ForzaFiori]

I have a black belt in Okinowan Gojo-ryu, and Kobudo. I haven't taken lessons in something like 4 years though (it interfered with sports at school) and now it looks like my dojo has shut down. Makes me sad. I'm gonna have to find someplace new to study when I finally decide to go back.

[Erts]

Yay, its back again! The martial arts discussion thread!

Okay, started in Tae Kwon Do, realized the faults of it, tried wrestling (freestyle, folk, whatever you want to call it) in high school, and I'm now primarily doing Muay Thai. I also do a small amount Capoeira for fun and fitness and a tiny bit of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for basic ground fighting.

Muay Thai is my favorite though.

[Lord Loss]

I do Kyokushin Karate (I recently switched Dojos) , Ninjutsu and a class called Kickboxing, which actaully seesm to be Thai Boxing. Kiai!

[Bhu]

So does anyone know names for maneuvers in Te, Taijutsu, or Jujutsu? Most of hte videos I watch all seem to go one of three ways:

Block, Strike, wrist control, more strikes

Block, Strike, wrist control, takedown

Counter and throw

[Ricky S]

Yep there are martial artists here. Tae Kwon Do. I am tall so have long legs which is perfect for Tae Kwon Do.

[katans]

So does anyone know names for maneuvers in Te, Taijutsu, or Jujutsu?

What exactly do you mean with "maneuver", a single move? A particular throw or takedown? A whole sequence of combined moves? A form (kata/taolu/poomse/whatever they're called)?

<trollfeeding>
Started with Aikido (9 years), changed to Kung-Fu (4 years), tried a whole lot of stuff, now practising Systema (3 years).
</trollfeeding>

[rakkoon]

Hmm, never heard of Systema, looks like fun on youtube.
I like it that we have the traditional Martial Arts, like Ninjutsu/Jujutsu and the newer systems MMA, American Kempo, Systema, etc that kind of employ techniques of all the other systems.
At the moment I'm doing traditional Ninpo (also practical, see Jinichi Kawakami, Shoto Tanemura, Masaaki Hatsumi, and Stephen Hayes) on Tuesdays and American Kempo (Ed Parker) on Friday's.
It gives a nice mix

[Anuan]

Um, the only website I can offer that may actually help you, OP, is this site of Judo (http://www.judoinfo.com/techjudo.htm) techniques, Judo being derived from Jujutsu. Many of the techniques are still applicable to self-defense systems and many are similar, identical or equivelant to Jujutsu techniques.

As for my own Martial Arts training, I've spent the past ten years self-training myself in a mixture of various arts, including techniques, ideas and ideals from Wing Chun, Southern Dragon kung fu, Muay Thai, Aikijujutsu, Karate, Krav Maga and multiple Western philosophies. Some argue that it's an inferior way of training, and I'd never argue that it was superior, but I can hold my own in a combat situation and I've beaten people who're professionally trained in a single style.

I like the adaptability I've got for situations that many others don't seem to.

[Bhu]

What exactly do you mean with "maneuver", a single move? A particular throw or takedown? A whole sequence of combined moves? A form (kata/taolu/poomse/whatever they're called)?

<trollfeeding>
Started with Aikido (9 years), changed to Kung-Fu (4 years), tried a whole lot of stuff, now practising Systema (3 years).
</trollfeeding>

Something I can use to make Feats/Maneuvers/Class abilities from

[Cleverdan22]

I train traditional Shotokan Karate. It's very rewarding, very fun, and very straightforward and powerful, less flowing moves, more direct cuts and hits. I'm a brown belt right now, and it's taken me years to get there. I put a break on my training while I finish high school, as the dojo is half and hour away and schoolwork takes up almost all of my time.

[DSCrankshaw]

What exactly do you mean with "maneuver", a single move? A particular throw or takedown? A whole sequence of combined moves? A form (kata/taolu/poomse/whatever they're called)?

I think he means Tome of Battle Maneuvers. He's looking to use this in a gaming system, so he wants martial arts techniques that he can turn into maneuvers in terms of game mechanics.

Not exactly what you're looking for, but Talhoffer (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/talhoffer.htm) is interesting for those curious about Western style martial arts. The link only shows the plates for longsword techniques, but Talhoffer also covers wrestling, dagger, and a lot of other techniques. Talhoffer's probably the most famous of the German fight manuals, but it's really not complete on its own.

[Bhu]

It might be similar to ToB. See the Samurai thread in my sig. I'm making the Pechin (an Okinawan Samurai) as a base class, and since they spent a lot of their time unarmed, I need info on Te to make up their class abilities or at least style feats. I also want Jujutsu to simulate an unarmed mainland Samurai, and Taijutsu since they were techniques used apparently by various different martial arts systems in the day. I'll also be doing Sumo (since the original Sumo were apparently Ronin) and Tegumi as PrC's.

[Bhu]

I think he means Tome of Battle Maneuvers. He's looking to use this in a gaming system, so he wants martial arts techniques that he can turn into maneuvers in terms of game mechanics.

Not exactly what you're looking for, but Talhoffer (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/talhoffer.htm) is interesting for those curious about Western style martial arts. The link only shows the plates for longsword techniques, but Talhoffer also covers wrestling, dagger, and a lot of other techniques. Talhoffer's probably the most famous of the German fight manuals, but it's really not complete on its own.

I like how XIV is 'Fight between a man and a wife'

Marital Arts is apparently appropriate...

[DSCrankshaw]

I like how XIV is 'Fight between a man and a wife'

Marital Arts is apparently appropriate...

As I understand it, it was for a specific form of judicial duel. I have a copy of Talhoffer somewhere, I wonder if it includes the plates for that part.

There was no marriage counseling back in those days, I guess.

[SurlySeraph]

I've done some taekwondo, six years of wrestling, and a bit of Systema. I'm also going to take classes in Eskrima, Krav Maga, or both this summer.

[Xzeno]

I took a karate class at a young age. I wasn't a fan. Since then, I have picked up Hung Ga Kung Fu. I think it's aces. You might want to look into it.

[Seffbasilisk]

I've some formal training in Tae Kwon Do, Chung Do Kwon. Fencing, though by chance thwarted of Junior Olympics.

And I'm making my own; Deathstep.

[Jera]

I'm currently training in BJJ and Muay Thai, I have a "black belt" in tae kwon do, though I consider it worthless, and I took a year of Judo when I first started college.

I'd suggest looking into The clinch, the elbow strike, and the various knee strikes from Muay Thai and the throws from judo and you would be able to make a fairly nice single target controller/striker.

[Bhu]

I took a karate class at a young age. I wasn't a fan. Since then, I have picked up Hung Ga Kung Fu. I think it's aces. You might want to look into it.


I'm in no physical condition to try Hung Gar. The nearest teacher is an hours drive from me too.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I like european martial arts more than asian's, so I train boxing and fencing. I used to train Muay-Thay, but this guy broke my ribs twice in 2 months, so I quit for the greater good. :smallsigh:

[thubby]

lets see...
I'm formally trained in karate and taekwondo (probably spelled it wrong).
I picked up boxing when i was younger but my low weight and constitution made that untenable.

[Bhu]

While im asking about help with martial arts, does anyone have any knowledge about weapons and armor in 7th-9th century Japan?

[Ashen Lilies]

I like european martial arts more than asian's, so I train boxing and fencing. I used to train Muay-Thay, but this guy broke my ribs twice in 2 months, so I quit for the greater good. :smallsigh:

Yikes. I'm a beginner, and thanks to the size of the class, my only sparring partner (besides the teacher) is a guy... well... he's not very good with pulling his blows. Nothing broken yet, but at least it's upping my pain tolerance.

[Anuan]

While im asking about help with martial arts, does anyone have any knowledge about weapons and armor in 7th-9th century Japan?

I could look into my resources for you...

[Bhu]

I could look into my resources for you...

Yays!

I keep reading that the proto-Smaurai (aka the Saburai) were expert archers and mounted fighters, but it doesnt really say what weapon or armor they used on horseback (other than to say it was lighter armor than in later years).

[endoperez]

Hmm, never heard of Systema, looks like fun on youtube.
I like it that we have the traditional Martial Arts, like Ninjutsu/Jujutsu and the newer systems MMA, American Kempo, Systema, etc that kind of employ techniques of all the other systems.

I'm pretty sure Systema would fit better as a Traditional martial art. It's actually an ancient Russian martial art that was almost forgotten, and was only preserved by the Orthodox Christian monasteries, where monks... No, really! :smallbiggrin:

Well, not really really, but it's an old method and Christian monasteries helped to preserve it (I have no idea how) until the military found it again. The official site doesn't mention the monasteries, but other sources (untrustworthy?) sources mention both the art being preserved in monasteries and the philosophical similarities to aikido, of all things.


http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=history
The Russian style of martial art dates back to the 10th century.

Throughout the history of this huge country, Russia had to repel invaders from the north, south, east, and west. ... [The] Russian warriors acquired a style that combined strong spirit with extremely innovative and versatile tactics that were at the same time practical, deadly, and effective against any type of enemy under any circumstances. ... When the Communists came to power in 1917, they suppressed all national traditions. Those practicing the old style of fighting could be severely punished. At the same time, the authorities quickly realized how viable and devastating the original combat system was and reserved it just for a few Special Operations Units.



EDIT:


Yays!

I keep reading that the proto-Smaurai (aka the Saburai) were expert archers and mounted fighters, but it doesnt really say what weapon or armor they used on horseback (other than to say it was lighter armor than in later years).

You want to get your hands on the book Samurai: An Illustrated History by Mitsuo Kure. It has illustrated spreads explaining the Heian-period armor (700-1100) and of the armors between 400-900, and much more. It mostly covers samurais, so the proto-samurai only get few mentions, but it is full of ridiculously beautiful pictures and all kinds of information that's hard to get online. It includes illustrations showing how a samurai armor is put on, piece by piece. There's also the history, but I haven't bothered with that yet. Honestly, I bought it for the pictures. Any way, try to get your hands on that one, try asking in libraries and such.

[Bhu]

http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Illustrated-History-Mitsuo-Kure/dp/0804832870/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274063534&sr=1-1

this one?

[Lev]

That's pretty oldschool, Te is for disabling another low stanced opponent, Taijutsu is Tai Chi, except it's approached as an external martial art which means that it's about direct opposition of power supplimented by skill vs power, where as actual tai chi (probably not what you watch in the park) is 100% skill, defeat them with softness-- Ju Jutsu is similar to Jiu Jitsu except it's more along the lines of Kempo or Karate as it's all about opposing balance (usually through a grab) then as they fall use that gap to strike, Kempo also has the option of causing heart arrhythmia with timed strikes to put them into shock.

Generally, in combination these would allow a class to:

Te is all about foiling an already formulated plan, if an opponent goes into it with a stance, you can use that to lower their own AC and fall prone.

Taijutsu on the otherhand requires a ridiculous amount of training, both Tai Chi and Tai Jutsu take 40-60 years to master or grandmaster (think of that as blackbelt or grandmaster in chess). Unfortunately for Tai Jutsu, it comes into peak effectiveness when the body starts to peter out, though if you live like them you might live to 100 and lengthen out your body's ability to cope with a stress/power based martial art.
Taijutsu would be AoO into grapple and the character is released by choosing to fall prone or make a tumble check, it would be good at disarming, reflex save based on wis, monk wis AC as normal, attack score 1/4 wis 1/2 dex 1/4 str.

Ju Jutsu would be an opposed balance check, if it works they fall prone and lose additional AC depending on your level (if you are using a dex based attack roll), same rules apply of choking them and the 3-grapple knockout rules.

Basically the DnD monk is just a mystic Shaolin, but because of the nature of actual Shaolin this class you are creating would be more like a swordsage or fighter with unarmed combat profic.


--------
Personally in a contemporary setting I believe Jiu Jitsu, Tai Chi and Shaolin are more effective in the long run-- the benefit to Japanese styles over Chinese seems to be that it turns people from bystanders to soldiers in a very short amount of time, and can train those without discipline, where as Shaolin comes into full effectiveness if you started training at 5-7 and Tai Chi comes into full effectiveness when you get to be around 40-50 if you started around 10 years old and stuck with it, but it doesn't get less effective as you get older so you can only go up from there. Jiu Jitsu is a little more strength based, which fits the normal male build.

[Bhu]

The question basically came about because someone asked me to adapt Koppojutsu, which according to wiki was one of the techniques making up Taijutsu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taijutsu

So as usual I went overboard and decided to go for broke...

[Lev]

Well, mentioning Koppojutsu I'd say what you're actually looking for is Chin Na (currently used by the taiwan police), which will give you a bigger age range, and you can adapt it to Taijutsu as it gets around clvl10+ (3.5)

But yes, it would be a fighter template base, grapple other humanoid, pin em down and optionally break their limb of pin.

Edit- You also might want to go out and spar for a bit to get to know the mechanics of a martial art, if you're going to play a grappling class working with advanced techniques you should try sparring with trained non-sport martial arts opponents (not MMA, not wrestling, not anything there's a sport basis to), just as if you were designing a ranger class I would say you should go camping and try your best to use none of your supplies (but still bring them).

[katans]

http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=history
The Russian style of martial art dates back to the 10th century.

Throughout the history of this huge country, Russia had to repel invaders from the north, south, east, and west. ... [The] Russian warriors acquired a style that combined strong spirit with extremely innovative and versatile tactics that were at the same time practical, deadly, and effective against any type of enemy under any circumstances. ... When the Communists came to power in 1917, they suppressed all national traditions. Those practicing the old style of fighting could be severely punished. At the same time, the authorities quickly realized how viable and devastating the original combat system was and reserved it just for a few Special Operations Units.

That's pretty controversial, actually. What Ryabko and Vasiliev say about the history of Systema and what's really true about it are two different matters. There's a great deal of confusion and uncertainty, and Ryabko himself is not very open on the subject. He'll tell you that he learned his craft from his "uncle" who was one of Stalin's bodyguards, but not much more. Sure, martial arts did exist in Russia in the past, but the question of what has been transmitted, what has been forgotten, and what has been adapted from Chinese martial arts is very unclear. If you look closely at Systema, you'll find similarities with Cossack swordfighting and with Chinese Da Cheng Quan and other internal systems. For the more recent part of history, the KGB has made heavy research on physiology and combat psychology, both being important aspects in Systema (and even more so in Kadochnikov's Systema). It's very hard to tell where Systema came from exactly.

But on the other hand, given that Ryabko, Vasiliev, Komarov, Kostic, Riazanov et al. ROCK as hard as it gets and are all absolutely wonderful teachers, I personally don't mind much where this all came from. It works for me, and that's all I care about.

[rakkoon]

Without going into too much detail, Taijutsu is body movement.
I've seen it used in different contexts, kind of like the words Kung Fu or Budo.
In Ninpo it is a part of the unarmed fighting techniques (also koppo-jutsu and koshi-jutsu), based on old Ryu Ha's.
I've talked to Taijutsu teachers who looked really strange at me when I asked on which Traditional school their style was based :smallsmile:

And thanks for the introduction to Systema, guys.

[Anuan]

Yays!

I keep reading that the proto-Smaurai (aka the Saburai) were expert archers and mounted fighters, but it doesnt really say what weapon or armor they used on horseback (other than to say it was lighter armor than in later years).

Indeed. Anyway, you're looking at the Heian period, here, and that's when the Samurai basically began their rise to power and began the fuedal age of Japan. The O-yoroi came about in fullness about the tenth century, and before this, the Japanese warrior-class used mainly scale (kozan-do) and lamellar types of armour. The tanko, a very early form of japanese armour, is a form of lamellar armour. They were both influenced by mainstream counterparts in China and Korea.

Now, if we're looking at say the 7th-9th century, you're really looking at mostly Keiko, though there was still occasionally Tanko being used. They'd pretty much been phased out by that point though. Keiko had a helmet, scale breastplate, scale skirt, some minor scale leg-protection (because, y'know, cavalry) in the form of a section behind the knee, on top of the knee and just above the foot. Bracers, gauntlets had been phased out by this stage, but they came back by the time O-yoroi came about. Can get a depiction...here.

http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_jpn_armour05_s.gif

Basic square-scale armour. Covered in lacquer, usually a shade of reddish-brown, tied on. Layers of silk worn underneath to give added protection against arrows.

[Cleverdan22]

I'm about to start training some other type of karate, it seems a lot less traditional, which makes me sad, but incorporates weapons, which makes me happy.

[Lev]

I'm about to start training some other type of karate, it seems a lot less traditional, which makes me sad, but incorporates weapons, which makes me happy.
If you're doing practical weapons training I really suggest tonfa, escrima or sjambok as the weapons look generally mundane, can fit in a backpack and can collapse/unscrew, and if you're in a rough neighborhood I'd suggest going for a full steel telescoping baton as they can fit in a sleeve and can apply just enough pressure to take out people's knee joints.

[Cleverdan22]

If you're doing practical weapons training I really suggest tonfa, escrima or sjambok as the weapons look generally mundane, can fit in a backpack and can collapse/unscrew, and if you're in a rough neighborhood I'd suggest going for a full steel telescoping baton as they can fit in a sleeve and can apply just enough pressure to take out people's knee joints.

I haven't gone yet, but I'm not sure I'm going to get to choose, at least not at first.

[Bhu]

Edit- You also might want to go out and spar for a bit to get to know the mechanics of a martial art, if you're going to play a grappling class working with advanced techniques you should try sparring with trained non-sport martial arts opponents (not MMA, not wrestling, not anything there's a sport basis to), just as if you were designing a ranger class I would say you should go camping and try your best to use none of your supplies (but still bring them).

Degenerative disc disease kinda bars me from doing that

[Lev]

I haven't gone yet, but I'm not sure I'm going to get to choose, at least not at first.
Oh the japanese side will probably start you with staff, a good weapon if you're near a big straight weighty pole, like a broom or carrying your "walking stick" heh, gandalf.
I believe karate literally means empty hand, so they will probably teach you a variant of okinawa bo kata.


Degenerative disc disease kinda bars me from doing thatThen you should try and at least see it first hand, if not do what you can to simulate the effects, or watch two of your friends spar.

[Cleverdan22]

Oh the japanese side will probably start you with staff, a good weapon if you're near a big straight weighty pole, like a broom or carrying your "walking stick" heh, gandalf.
I believe karate literally means empty hand, so they will probably teach you a variant of okinawa bo kata.

Probably. I know at my old dojo they at least had some bo staffs, but we never really used them.

[Bhu]

I have to say out of all the karate vids i've watched on youtube while doing research for this class this one hurts the most:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ2Xj2JLnck

[Lev]

I have to say out of all the karate vids i've watched on youtube while doing research for this class this one hurts the most:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ2Xj2JLnck

The best thing about Karate is Zenkutsu dachi stance, its a great trick to cheat your ability to balance until you develop your balance enough to negate the need for low stancing.

The best thing to understand about martial arts is that it's all just about physics and manipulation of the body, if you have trained yourself into a big setup anyone skilled enough to see: Wow ok, that's obviously Karate, I've sparred against that before, I'll just counter by either switching to ground fighting or Krav Maga, and suddenly you're either in a position you haven't trained in, or you're blind and your fingers are broken.
A lot of the time you can be attacked before you stance or ready or anything, you gotta be able to deal with that, all the careful planning and structured sherlock holmes foresight voodoo won't prepare you for an ambush. How do you deal with that? Just do it, seriously! Just DOING something is RARELY taught in classes, most of the best martial arts techniques are just folded in way too specifically with basic basic principles of movement, physics, energy, mass, balance, anatomy, ect.

So, to anyone getting "really" into martial arts for the first time, AKA sparring vs different martial arts most of the time, I suggest you undo a lot of your thinking and try to understand just how the body works, and less about how to be x to do y vs style z in situation a. Concentrate on you.

[katans]

If you're doing practical weapons training I really suggest tonfa, escrima or sjambok as the weapons look generally mundane, can fit in a backpack and can collapse/unscrew, and if you're in a rough neighborhood I'd suggest going for a full steel telescoping baton as they can fit in a sleeve and can apply just enough pressure to take out people's knee joints.

Depending, of course, on what's legal in your country... It is illegal to carry telescoping batons or certain types of knives in most parts of Europe, for example.

[rakkoon]

Fighting against knives is interesting because it teaches you respect for the weapon :smallsmile:

[katans]

Oh, you get that feeling against almost every weapon wielded even remotely correctly...

[Lev]

Depending, of course, on what's legal in your country... It is illegal to carry telescoping batons or certain types of knives in most parts of Europe, for example.
More like, depending how bad your neighborhood is. You are a good guy, breaking a law meant to stop bad guys doing the same thing isn't wrong unless you get caught.

[dehro]

More like, depending how bad your neighborhood is. You are a good guy, breaking a law meant to stop bad guys doing the same thing isn't wrong unless you get caught.

doesn't that put you morally on a par with the bad guy?

[Lev]

doesn't that put you morally on a par with the bad guy?
Nope. .

[dehro]

Nope. .

it does for me

[Lev]

it does for me

Are you bender? Because that's a good way to gain power in the league of robots.

[katans]

More like, depending how bad your neighborhood is. You are a good guy, breaking a law meant to stop bad guys doing the same thing isn't wrong unless you get caught.

There's a difference between having to resort to extreme measures and willfully breaking the law in case a situation would occur. Trust me, in certain places the police will not be comprehensive. Rule Zero of self defence is stay out of harm's way. That means of course things like don't look for a fight, don't provoke people, don't answer provocations etc., but also don't mess with the law and avoid hot spots.
If you have to live in a dangerous place and have no opportunity to move, there are still legal self-defence means that do the job extremely good. Apart from the usual pepper spray of pocket knife, think of all the things labeled "tools" that can be as dangerous as weapons when used properly, for example... And if those no longer do, then you should seriously consider moving.

[rakkoon]

Oh, you get that feeling against almost every weapon wielded even remotely correctly...

Well yes but though I love the Naginata and the Nyo y Bo (how do you spell that? Anyway, think huge log ), I probably won't meet anyone with them on the street.
And though I've seen a lot of techniques against a knife (tanto,shoto, whatever), it is a completely different feeling when you spar.
Even if the attack is the same thrust every time, 2 times out of ten I'm too late. And this is when I know what he'll do (of course I'm also playing and testing different techniques).
Mind you if someone pulls a katana out of his backpocket I don't care how good he is with it, I'm running away from the lunatic :smallbiggrin:

[Lev]

I agree katans, but you gotta remember that as computer owning gamers we gotta remember that moving or avoiding is a privilege that other people simply cannot do, of course people should be wary of laws, but I wouldn't tell anyone to follow a law that does not strictly watch out for theirs and others safety.
The meaning of the law is to make sure that the weapons are not used in any resort but the last, and as long as people do that I see no laws broken, only people saved.

[Erts]

I agree katans, but you gotta remember that as computer owning gamers we gotta remember that moving or avoiding is a privilege that other people simply cannot do, of course people should be wary of laws, but I wouldn't tell anyone to follow a law that does not strictly watch out for theirs and others safety.
The meaning of the law is to make sure that the weapons are not used in any resort but the last, and as long as people do that I see no laws broken, only people saved.

Careful, or you will draw the swift hand of Roland upon thee.


Back to the point, does anyone have any good drills for martial arts? I know that it is a broad question, but any answers?

[Anuan]

Drills? You mean, like...forms? :smallconfused:

[Erts]

Drills? You mean, like...forms? :smallconfused:

Drills, as in, "punch this many times" or stuff like that.

For some martial arts (I'm looking at you BJJ) this is irrelevant, but let me tell you, in Muay Thai, you do these.

[Anuan]

Oh, right, I get you.

Try 100 hip-height roundhouses, changing legs each time, against a hanging bag, with a break at fifty for twenty elbow strikes from each arm.
Follow with fifty foot-jabs, then fifty punches.

[Erts]

Oh, right, I get you.

Try 100 hip-height roundhouses, changing legs each time, against a hanging bag, with a break at fifty for twenty elbow strikes from each arm.
Follow with fifty foot-jabs, then fifty punches.

Thanks, but is it alright if it is on a bag that is mounted on a rail like this? (http://www.worldsportinggoods.com/images/YouthPwrRunner_w_HangingBag.jpg) The orange one out to the side which moves up and down the rail.

[Lev]

Drills, as in, "punch this many times" or stuff like that.

For some martial arts (I'm looking at you BJJ) this is irrelevant, but let me tell you, in Muay Thai, you do these.
The most useful martial arts exercises I've seen apart from just working out, dancing wildly, stretching as much as possible would be:
Balancing, do all your martial arts with 2 feet touching the ground but with only one leg actually full of weight.
Don't use your arms, use your core to put any force out there (tensing up in a lot of cases, like making your fist hard can really screw you over, same goes with blocking hard), the farther away your power is from your core, the easier it is to sense and manipulate... even the strongest man in the world is just a plastic figurine if he tenses up his entire body, knock that guy over using his own power.
Bashing, BASH BASH BASH BASH BASH. Bash the hell out of your bones, not the joints, the bones. This can be done by any high impact cardio work as well, like running, jumprope, rock climbing, ect. Every time you shatter your bones on a microscopic level (doesn't take much force) they grow stronger, you use your muscles while you break em you get musculoskeletal strength, and thats the stuff that turns you from a steak into steel.

[katans]

And though I've seen a lot of techniques against a knife (tanto,shoto, whatever), it is a completely different feeling when you spar.
Even if the attack is the same thrust every time, 2 times out of ten I'm too late. And this is when I know what he'll do (of course I'm also playing and testing different techniques).
Mind you if someone pulls a katana out of his backpocket I don't care how good he is with it, I'm running away from the lunatic :smallbiggrin:

Indeed :smallbiggrin:.
2 out of 10? Either you're very good or your sparring partner isn't. In my experience, knowing what to do against a knife raises your survival chances from 0 to maybe 2% when your opponent knows what he's doing too.


The meaning of the law is to make sure that the weapons are not used in any resort but the last, and as long as people do that I see no laws broken, only people saved.

I think we're on the same wavelength on the whole, but this particular point is a very touchy one. If you're in a life-or-death situation and appear to have a weapon, then sure, go and use it. But the point is: why are you carrying a potentially illegal item in the first place? From the law's point of view in many, many countries, you're not better off than the guy carrying the same illegal item with bad intentions. Remember that the law judges and sanctions first and foremost behaviours, not intentions.


Bashing, BASH BASH BASH BASH BASH. Bash the hell out of your bones, not the joints, the bones. This can be done by any high impact cardio work as well, like running, jumprope, rock climbing, ect. Every time you shatter your bones on a microscopic level (doesn't take much force) they grow stronger, you use your muscles while you break em you get musculoskeletal strength, and thats the stuff that turns you from a steak into steel.

:smalleek:
And that turns a sane bone into one rampaged by bone tumors. I'd be VERY careful with that kind of stuff. Long-term consequences of unwary bone hardening are disastrous.

[rakkoon]

2 out of 10? Either you're very good or your sparring partner isn't. In my experience, knowing what to do against a knife raises your survival chances from 0 to maybe 2% when your opponent knows what he's doing too.

Well ok, it was 3 out of ten (ya caught me). And he's playing a doofus, not a real knife fighter. After that there's the real free sparring, which hurts more :smallbiggrin:

Jab, reverse elbow is always fun with a punching bag. Or block & reverse elbow
Also jab, reverse, fall down on the ground and repeat for 1 minute. That always kills me :smallsmile:
Hit like a maniac for 30 seconds, hit the exact same spot for 30 seconds, stretch for one minute. Repeat

[Lev]

I think we're on the same wavelength on the whole, but this particular point is a very touchy one. If you're in a life-or-death situation and appear to have a weapon, then sure, go and use it. But the point is: why are you carrying a potentially illegal item in the first place? From the law's point of view in many, many countries, you're not better off than the guy carrying the same illegal item with bad intentions. Remember that the law judges and sanctions first and foremost behaviours, not intentions.
Ah I see, if you lose, you called the police or what? I don't see how walking out of there with your teeth intact involves a court.



:smalleek:
And that turns a sane bone into one rampaged by bone tumors. I'd be VERY careful with that kind of stuff. Long-term consequences of unwary bone hardening are disastrous.
Only do what is appropriate for your training. If you want to excel at this sort of thing you have to start at age 5, period.

[Erts]

Only do what is appropriate for your training. If you want to excel at this sort of thing you have to start at age 5, period.

The thing is, it is possible to do it after that age. You just have to go VERY slowly. It doesn't involve walking up and kicking metal poles.

[Lev]

The thing is, it is possible to do it after that age. You just have to go VERY slowly. It doesn't involve walking up and kicking metal poles.

You are right, but I was going towards superhumanly strong with my point there, it's totally possible to be good at kung fu and all, but a whole bunch of the armoring techniques just wont work unless you've been trained, like if you angle your body correctly they will break their own limbs on you, but if you aren't solid enough you will be broken.
In addition, iron palm requires between 5-10 to hit it perfect and between 12-16 (to start) to gain it without absolutely wrecking your hands after since the bones grow themselves up 90% by the time you hit 20, but yes in your lifetime you get roughly 7-12 full skeletal replacements that slowly happen, but you're only going to see a couple of those at 10% efficiency during your kung fu training time compared to what it would have been at a young age.

But yes, if you want to literally rip someones heart out, you gotta start young.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I've done Muay Thai/Burmese boxing since, like, forever, and started taking Enshin Kaikan back when I was still in high school, although I switched to studying at a Kyokushin school in college.

Really wanna learn some style of stick-fighting, next.

[katans]

But yes, if you want to literally rip someones heart out, you gotta start young.

An 85-years-old untrained lady wielding a knife can do that perfectly.

What I mean is there are ways to be deadly and efficient in combat without jeopardizing your health. Iron Palm and most of the other hard qi gong methods are devastating for your own body. You won't be 20 all your life.

[Octopus Jack]

Thought I might join in the discussion:

I've been doing Wado-ryu karate for 7 years (since I was about 9) and I am a 2nd Dan black belt.
I've also been doing Taekwondo for about 4 years and am a first degree black belt.
In a few weeks I will probably be taking up Jujitsu not sure if to or do something different.

[rakkoon]

A pugilistist octopus would make a great cartoon character...

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I've heard Hung Gar is a pretty cool follow-up to taekwondo, although I really like the jujutsu parts of Enshin Kaikan/Kyokushin a lot, so karate will probably help you learn it, and it's a lot of fun to do.

[Lev]

An 85-years-old untrained lady wielding a knife can do that perfectly.

What I mean is there are ways to be deadly and efficient in combat without jeopardizing your health. Iron Palm and most of the other hard qi gong methods are devastating for your own body. You won't be 20 all your life.
Most qi gong are healthier for you than not taking them, all tai chi is qi gong and simply put qi gong just teaches you to breathe in certain ways.


I've heard Hung Gar is a pretty cool follow-up to taekwondo, although I really like the jujutsu parts of Enshin Kaikan/Kyokushin a lot, so karate will probably help you learn it, and it's a lot of fun to do.
Hung Gar is very interesting to spar against, I highly suggest aikido synergy with it because its stance opens up a huge maneuverability to bring the front leg to back, and it draws a straight line into an aikido pull. There's more leverage, it's more stable and you can easily mirror it to the other side quickly against a western grappler as their style is the pull through rather than the solid stance, it 45degrees their ankle and brings them down while disabling their leading hand. If their backhand is their weapon arm then you can easily use chin na after that to pin them with the forward hand you already took.

[katans]

Most qi gong are healthier for you than not taking them, all tai chi is qi gong and simply put qi gong just teaches you to breathe in certain ways.
Yes, yes, I wasn't dismissing all of Qi Gong, only the parts that suggest it is a good idea to cripple your hand so you can hit people harder.


Hung Gar is very interesting to spar against, I highly suggest aikido synergy with it because its stance opens up a huge maneuverability to bring the front leg to back, and it draws a straight line into an aikido pull.

Having trained both hung gar and aikido, I can't really think of a common ground to both. They work on different body principles, have a different definition of "stable", use different combat principles... I see a complementarity, yes, but not a synergy.


There's more leverage, it's more stable and you can easily mirror it to the other side quickly against a western grappler as their style is the pull through rather than the solid stance, it 45degrees their ankle and brings them down while disabling their leading hand. If their backhand is their weapon arm then you can easily use chin na after that to pin them with the forward hand you already took.

No offence meant, but my bullsh*t detector is going wild when i read this. Maybe a bit of clarification could help?
- Are you suggesting that a hung gar fighter, someone who has no idea at all what groundfighting is, should try to grapple with a grappler?
- How often did you manage to place a joint lock in sparring against someone with a good striking technique, say, a boxer or something?
- Would you mind explaining YOUR concept of leading hand / weapon hand?

[Octopus Jack]

So would Jujitsu be a good thing to add on top of Taekwondo and Karate? Or would something else work better?



A pugilistist octopus would make a great cartoon character...

And I want that as an avatar now! :smallbiggrin:

[rakkoon]

Taekwondo and Karate and great at a distance and standing up.
I would add some close combat and/or grappling with that.
Jiu-Jitsu is an option (not the classical Jujutsu), Brazilian Jiujitsu in particular.
American Kempo and MMA have lots of grappling techniques and you can use your Karakwondo...judo has lots of grappling but too many rules.

[Anuan]

EDIT: Oops, I'm an idiot.

I'm going to disagree with Rakkoon and say that Nihon Jujutsu is just as much a valid choice. BJJ is great too though.

[rakkoon]

You disagree Anuan? An insult to my honour! A duel it is then. How about beneath the Eifel Tower at noon tomorrow?

And now for real:
We can discuss spelling but Nihon Jujutsu is
"a modern Japanese martial art ... found in both ancient and contemporary martial arts."
I just meant use a modern version :smallsmile:

I do some Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu, Asayama Ichiden ryu and Tenshin Kyohyo Kukishin Ryu and they are a lot of fun but not that practical in a fight with a BJJ fighter :smalltongue:

[Anuan]

BJJ's a little overrated. I mean, it's effective. But everyone thinks it's completely amazing. I prefer to use a more traditional form of grappling because of the ideals with it; countering and reversing situations to create a grappling situation for your advantage.

BJJ (or at least, most of the practitioners I've met) focus a lot on agressive use of takedowns and such. Knowing a few ways to recognise and block takedowns takes a lot of that effectiveness away. Not to mention making you unpleasantly susceptible to a rising knee to the face or throat :smalltongue:.

There's even a take-down block I became very interested in and practiced a lot for a while, but I can't for the life of me remember its name or the style it comes from. Do it too quick and you'll basically break the guy's neck, though, so hopefully I'll never end up doing that one for real >.>

[rakkoon]

I only got one lesson in BJJ by a friend and the funniest part is that when I was on top of him and his crotch was right in front me of me , he was in the position of power.
Because they are not allowed to punch someone there and you have to go around.
That was funny.

[katans]

BJJ's a little overrated. I mean, it's effective. But everyone thinks it's completely amazing. I prefer to use a more traditional form of grappling because of the ideals with it; countering and reversing situations to create a grappling situation for your advantage.

BJJ effectively IS amazing when it comes to pure wrestling. Any remotely serious groundfighter should have at least a basic understanding of it, just because it's so darn useful. Trying groundfighting without BJJ basics is a bit like pretending you can handle yourself in a fistfight and have never faced a boxer before.

It starts getting overrated when people forget that BJJ, just like almost any martial art, has a defined frame, namely, sports groundfighting. BJJ principles are suicide in a self-defense situation (where you'll want to avoid going to the ground at all costs) and even starts ailing when you add in strikes, multiple opponents, different clothing, and/or weapons.


BJJ (or at least, most of the practitioners I've met) focus a lot on agressive use of takedowns and such. Knowing a few ways to recognise and block takedowns takes a lot of that effectiveness away. Not to mention making you unpleasantly susceptible to a rising knee to the face or throat :smalltongue:.

Well, BJJ's standard philosophy is: "I know I'm incomplete. But I'm so good at what I'm doing that you'd better be at least that good in what YOU're doing, otherwise you're dead."
So, on the principle, yes, in a serious situation, well... hope you did practice a whole frikkin' lot.


There's even a take-down block I became very interested in and practiced a lot for a while, but I can't for the life of me remember its name or the style it comes from.

There are quite a few in Sambo, Ninjutsu, Systema, BJJ, etc.

[Anuan]

BJJ effectively IS amazing when it comes to pure wrestling. Any remotely serious groundfighter should have at least a basic understanding of it, just because it's so darn useful. Trying groundfighting without BJJ basics is a bit like pretending you can handle yourself in a fistfight and have never faced a boxer before.


I agree with everything you're saying except this. There are a lot of other styles with an emphasis on ground-fighting that are just as effective as BJJ. And yes, BJJ is amazing. Nearly every martial art is amazing in its own way. BJJ is an amazing style for groundfighting, and I do like it a lot, but it's still overrated. That's not the fault of the style, it just happens because there are a lot of people around that know about BJJ, and a lot of them are stupid. People tend to be stupid.

[rakkoon]

So has anyone ever sparred with a true classical Boxer?
I did 10 years ago and it was very frustrating.
Now doing some (thai)boxing exercises and they are fun.
It's not the same as with a hands-only-boxer though

[Lev]

No offence meant, but my bullsh*t detector is going wild when i read this. Maybe a bit of clarification could help?
- Are you suggesting that a hung gar fighter, someone who has no idea at all what groundfighting is, should try to grapple with a grappler?
- How often did you manage to place a joint lock in sparring against someone with a good striking technique, say, a boxer or something?
- Would you mind explaining YOUR concept of leading hand / weapon hand?
No offense taken, body principles explained in text never do it justice.
1) No, I'm saying that a western grappler will bring momentum and setup to the party, you can flip and ground a grappler without actually ground fighting with him, hung gar can get pretty low while maintaining the head string.
2) Put your hand out and let it go into a state right at the edge of limpness and let their arm carry your blocking hand backwards, as you do this right before they stop putting momentum into their forward strike there is a gap where the hip spring has no energy in it since it's in a state of transition, at this point you can use chin na angling to disable their hand, and if they tighten up their arm you just flip them like a small bottom vase or open their guard as you would open a door. So, use hip = gap, don't use hip = unbalance.
3) Leading hand should not be your weapon hand unless you are carrying a weapon that can disable an arm. If your opponent strikes with a knife you disable that arm, now you have their arm, their weapon and you still have your weapon hand available to do anything you want with... stab their arm they just gave you, for instance.

As for balancing concepts, I only speak out of experience of sparring against these styles, if the names given to me were deceptive or not matching up to what the styles inspiration came from directly then it would be a fault in the concept of naming a martial art instead of just feeling the concepts behind what you or others do. Sorry if you became confused.

Mm, not sure if I've posted this here yet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnUDkCQ0WU

[katans]

1) No, I'm saying that a western grappler will bring momentum and setup to the party, you can flip and ground a grappler without actually ground fighting with him, hung gar can get pretty low while maintaining the head string.
Not convinced. A grappler with basic notions of follow-up won't be disturbed by getting flipped, he'll just keep coming from another angle.

2) Put your hand out and let it go into a state right at the edge of limpness and let their arm carry your blocking hand backwards, as you do this right before they stop putting momentum into their forward strike there is a gap where the hip spring has no energy in it since it's in a state of transition, at this point you can use chin na angling to disable their hand, and if they tighten up their arm you just flip them like a small bottom vase or open their guard as you would open a door.
Yes, yes, I know of the principle of using the small empty moment (the karateka call it kyo, IIRC) to do pretty much whatever you want. That isn't my point. I'm talking sparring here, not just technical training. Bringing that kind of precision and fine motor skills in a stressful situation, while tired, sweaty, having already taken a few blows maybe etc... is nearly impossible without very long and intensive practice. I agree that it's technically feasible and even easy once you get the trick, but add in the psychological pressure of a serious contest and I doubt one can perform with the same degree of finesse.

So, use hip = gap, don't use hip = unbalance.
Erm... no. This is a generalization that can apply to poorly trained opponents at best. Regarding first part, go visit a really good karateka. Hip =/= gap. It's just one frikkin' stable guy with no loss of connection anywhere. For the second part, visit a Systema trainer and let him demonstrate how he strikes.


3) Leading hand should not be your weapon hand unless you are carrying a weapon that can disable an arm.
Hmmm... that's a concept, though not necessarily one I agree upon. I tend to strike whatever's in reach with whichever currently available body part.

If your opponent strikes with a knife you disable that arm, now you have their arm, their weapon and you still have your weapon hand available to do anything you want with... stab their arm they just gave you, for instance.
That's just... confusing. But I doubt using words for it would bring any clarification. Do you have any video illustrating that, maybe?


Mm, not sure if I've posted this here yet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnUDkCQ0WU

Bad, BAAAD video (and I'm into Systema, trust me, I know a bad video when I see one :smallwink:). There are a few interesting principles in this, but they vanish before the students' over-exaggerated reaction.

[Lev]

Not convinced. A grappler with basic notions of follow-up won't be disturbed by getting flipped, he'll just keep coming from another angle.
Most simple disputes end with someone getting floored combined with a neutral non-aggressive stance and a calming presence. Trust me, once you take away their will to fight they approach it on a logical level instead of an emotional one, and once they see no point in fighting they stop. I've seen it many times first hand, and it works.


Yes, yes, I know of the principle of using the small empty moment (the karateka call it kyo, IIRC) to do pretty much whatever you want. That isn't my point. I'm talking sparring here, not just technical training. Bringing that kind of precision and fine motor skills in a stressful situation, while tired, sweaty, having already taken a few blows maybe etc... is nearly impossible without very long and intensive practice. I agree that it's technically feasible and even easy once you get the trick, but add in the psychological pressure of a serious contest and I doubt one can perform with the same degree of finesse.
If you tighten up, get worked up and expend lots of energy then yes it's really really difficult, but consider that you don't have to tighten up (stay extremely loose and fluid), you can train yourself to not be angry and not build adrenaline, and you can stay as neutral as possible and ONLY concentrate on the extremely small nearly intangible moments like that and if you don't learn it you don't try anything else and lose and lose and lose and lose, you get better at doing that.
Bodies adapt, but it really depends what you tell your body it isn't doing enough at, and if you tell your body it's not doing well enough at pure skill your body will listen.


Erm... no. This is a generalization that can apply to poorly trained opponents at best. Regarding first part, go visit a really good karateka. Hip =/= gap. It's just one frikkin' stable guy with no loss of connection anywhere. For the second part, visit a Systema trainer and let him demonstrate how he strikes.
I'd like to see someone in a stability karate stance get in range of hitting me while I simply walk away.


Hmmm... that's a concept, though not necessarily one I agree upon. I tend to strike whatever's in reach with whichever currently available body part.
I wonder if you play chess.


That's just... confusing. But I doubt using words for it would bring any clarification. Do you have any video illustrating that, maybe?
When an arm plunges at you they give you an arm, if it has a knife in it or is just a fist it's the same thing (spare a few inches), either way that arm is yours, if not they trace the line back to their body as they retract the arm which pins their forward arm against their body


Bad, BAAAD video (and I'm into Systema, trust me, I know a bad video when I see one :smallwink:). There are a few interesting principles in this, but they vanish before the students' over-exaggerated reaction.
Teaching people about martial arts they at-heart are not willing to learn is not good practice at preserving the insights of the arts.
Believe what you want, seek what you want.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'd like to see someone in a stability karate stance get in range of hitting me while I simply walk away.

Hmmm? Maybe I'm missing something in your argument, but a skilled karateka can move at running speeds while retaining a stable stance, and switch the direction of a stance so fast "simply walking away" doesn't really describe the counter-measures needed.

[Lev]

Hmmm? Maybe I'm missing something in your argument, but a skilled karateka can move at running speeds while retaining a stable stance, and switch the direction of a stance so fast "simply walking away" doesn't really describe the counter-measures needed.
I wouldn't call one foot off the ground and not balanced on that foot a stance, I'd call it a liability.

[Frozen_Feet]

Hmmm? There are stances where almost all weight is on one foot, that are still balanced, like nekoashi dachi. And when moving in some other stances, like sanchin dachi or zenkutsu dachi, neither foot has to rise from the groud. In my style, it's usually advised to slide one's feet along the surface of the ground; my sensei demonstrated only a week ago it's possible to achieve near-running speed while doing that, and from my own experience I'd say it's hard to unbalance someone who moves properly in sanchin or zenkutsu.

For the record, my style is Okinawan Goju Ryu, which is a very traditional style. I have a feeling you're thinking more about sports karate (or any sports MA), where they bounce around, rapidly shifting weight from foot to foot, which is unbalanced and easy to disrupt with the right timing. In my style, we tend to avoid that. "From stillness to stillness", "Ground is your friend" and all that jazz.

[Erts]

I wouldn't call one foot off the ground and not balanced on that foot a stance, I'd call it a liability.

Are you talking about the "Crane Stance" in the Karate Kid?
For the record, that isn't a real stance in karate.
(I don't even take karate, I'm just pointing it out.)

[Lev]

it's hard to unbalance someone who moves properly in sanchin or zenkutsu.
I agree completely, the only thing I really admire about karate are it's stances used for balancing, absolutely superb structure, though I'm not one for personally praising man-made structure vs the body's natural structure.

But yeah, I'm afraid most of my sparring is within 3' diameter bagwa circles so I can't really visualize someone chasing after someone else entirely within a defensive stance and then taking them down while still in it-- seems you would eventually have to stop running once you think you got them, but that just might be my lack of experience talking. Have you seen someone genuinely run away during sparring while the other person chases in a defensive stance?
I'll try and get one of my kempo/karate sparring partners to try this with me next week.


Are you talking about the "Crane Stance" in the Karate Kid?
For the record, that isn't a real stance in karate.
(I don't even take karate, I'm just pointing it out.)
That would be a stance that is balanced on one foot, though using your arms to balance you is generally a bad idea in any circumstance, and I was a fire/circus performer for 2 years.
No, you can move while centering your body's natural balance line through one foot, but it looks exactly like you are standing normally, you just empty the weight in one foot. Problem is that running means lifting both feet off the ground, technically you have no feet on the ground to balance with ;D
Walking on the other hand, you do, and since the runner gets to control when he walks and when he runs he can simply slow down to walking speed (back into balance) while the aggressor has to still run to catch up to him, but if the aggressor slows down to balance himself, the runner can just bolt again :smallsmile:

[Frozen_Feet]

Are you talking about the "Crane Stance" in the Karate Kid?
For the record, that isn't a real stance in karate.
(I don't even take karate, I'm just pointing it out.)

Actually, lifting your knee up is what starts all kicks in traditional karate, which will always briefly take you to a stance similar to the "crane"; the biggest difference is that hands and arms are usually held in defence, not waved around stupidly like in the movie. Oh, and you usually kick and return your foot in blink of an eye, rather than balancing in the stance for extended periods. :smallwink:

@Lev: I'm not sure if one can call zenkutsu dachi a defensive stance (all stances I know of can be used offensively), but yes, I've seen black belts chase down running opponents while moving it. I was rather astonished you could move that fast in zenkutsu; it's a long stance and doesn't usually get you far with one step. That said, the chases didn't last for long, only for roughly 10 metres, and I doubt anyone could keep that pace up for very long. Though it might be a moot point, most fights start from range smaller than that.

[Lev]

@Lev: I'm not sure if one can call zenkutsu dachi a defensive stance (all stances I know of can be used offensively), but yes, I've seen black belts chase down running opponents while moving it. I was rather astonished you could move that fast in zenkutsu; it's a long stance and doesn't usually get you far with one step. That said, the chases didn't last for long, only for roughly 10 metres, and I doubt anyone could keep that pace up for very long. Though it might be a moot point, most fights start from range smaller than that.
Mmm, as far as sparing goes without coming out of it it's an extremely well built stance and probably the best cheat for stability I've seen out of any mid-height tactic. (I've associated balance entirely with defense, as I see fighting not about hitting or breaking bones but about finishing the fight-- and if you are fighting someone who doesn't do ground fighting then getting them on the ground is a good way to put them in check and then go for a checkmate, so to speak.)

Again I'll really have to see how this plays out, I'm still not convinced someone can run as faster in a stance than just booking it (and if so, that the stance actually retains it's stability effect during movement), and if not then parkour seems like a solid counter in my books.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Jujutsu (or your prefered romanization) is great if you're on the smaller side, too. Anything with joint-locks is pretty useful in most situations of grappling, really.

[Anuan]

So has anyone ever sparred with a true classical Boxer?
I did 10 years ago and it was very frustrating.
Now doing some (thai)boxing exercises and they are fun.
It's not the same as with a hands-only-boxer though

Spar? No.
Got in a fight with? Yes.

A little Aikijiutsu and a few choice words about what would happen to his bloodflow if he kept on the same path, spoken whilst he was pinned to the ground by my knee on the side of his head, and he stopped bothering my friends and myself.

[rakkoon]

Cool, so what did you do?
He's standing in front of you, weaving a bit and trying to hit yout head.
Only saw aikijutsu for two hours during a MA day somewhere so did you go for his wrist or the body? If the body, how the hell did you get close enough :smallwink:

[Lev]

Cool, so what did you do?
He's standing in front of you, weaving a bit and trying to hit yout head.
Only saw aikijutsu for two hours during a MA day somewhere so did you go for his wrist or the body? If the body, how the hell did you get close enough :smallwink:
Boxing is a sport, to fight other boxers.

[rakkoon]

Uhm I agree with that statement about Judoka's , I heavily disagree with that statement about boxers :smallsmile:

My friend does Wing tchung and kicks every thaiboxer & Karateka's behind while sparring, he gets his own behing handed to him when fighting a boxer.

And my personal experience from (counts and is depressed) 15 years ago tells me that the idiots keeps weaving away from my attacks and punching me in the nose.

I should really try and find one today...

[Santiago]

Striking: Western Boxing, Muay Thai
Ground: Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

[Liffguard]

At the BJJ Gracie Invitational at Seni today. Took gold in the blue lightweight division. Am pretty happy.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

My friend does Wing tchung and kicks every thaiboxer & Karateka's behind while sparring, he gets his own behing handed to him when fighting a boxer.

Thai boxing, really? I do thai boxing, and have always had an easy time against wing tsun, even when the other guy is clearly better at it than I am at muay thai. I've always felt it's weak against boxing styles in general, since a lot of it's speedy, trixy advantages don't pull as much weight.

[Lev]

Thai boxing, really? I do thai boxing, and have always had an easy time against wing tsun, even when the other guy is clearly better at it than I am at muay thai. I've always felt it's weak against boxing styles in general, since a lot of it's speedy, trixy advantages don't pull as much weight.
Let's pull an analogy here, you could be a wizard and not have high int, or you could be a sorcerer and not have high cha, it doesn't mean these classes are ineffective, it just means the people using them might not be doing what's best for their style.
His example wasn't that "Wing Chung beats thaiboxing & Karateka", his example is that "my friend beats tai boxing and karateka with wing chung" :smallsmile:

[ForzaFiori]

Awesome news. I recently found a Kuk Sool Wan class that's only like... 45 minutes away. Based on the student's and teacher's descriptions, and watching and participating, it seems like it'll be an excellent complement to the gojo-ryu and kobudo I already know, adding joint locks and take downs to the hard style from before.

I'm EXCITED!

my first real class is the day after tomorrow, and I'll get my gi then.

[Anuan]

First off; anybody who says that boxing is only applicable as sport knows very little about the style in general. Look up some of the history and the technical aspects. That is all I will say on that.

Secondly; Wing Chun is highly effective if used correctly, as are most martial arts. I've seen Muay Thai fighters beaten by WC fighters. I've seen WC fighters beaten by Muay Thai fighters. I've seen both of them beat Karateka. I've seen Karateka beat combatants of both of those styles, and more.

Third; I didn't really go for anything. He tried to punch me. Several times. I evaded until his hand happened to be in a good spot during a punch for me to take his wrist. IIRC, I took his right wrist with my right hand (reaching across my body, o'course), stepped back and to the outside a little, and using the momentum of his punch to help I dragged his arm forward and down. He was of course brought forward, headfirst, whereupon I grabbed his head and flipped him to his back. Words (read, threats of being less pleasant next time) were then had and he left us alone. The aikijiujitsu was a little modified and technically that's a combination of two seperate techniques, but you do what works in the situation. As with all martial arts. It's all about physics and how the body responds to them.

[rakkoon]

Congrats for the gold medal and finding a Kuk Sool Wan school !

Anuan, sounds like a move I know, so it works in real life situations? Good to know.

It's always the man fighting, I once knew a guy who did a silly form of jiu-jitsu but he was LIGHTNING fast. It wouldn't matter what he did, he was just bloody fast (and big and strong)!

So other muay thai fighters can handle WS guys?
So many lineages, so many teachers...it's fun that there is so much to choose from but with so much variation it's nigh impossible to say what is best.

[katans]

Most simple disputes end with someone getting floored combined with a neutral non-aggressive stance and a calming presence. Trust me, once you take away their will to fight they approach it on a logical level instead of an emotional one, and once they see no point in fighting they stop. I've seen it many times first hand, and it works.
As much as I'd love to live in Carebear Land too, the kind of scene you describe only works under very specific conditions that do not accurately reflect an aggression's true context. In Germany, police statistics show that 99% of the time, the person attacking you will be either armed or in a group. Taking away the will to fight by presence and non-aggression is something you have to do before combat starts. Once it does, it's too late.


If you tighten up, get worked up and expend lots of energy then yes it's really really difficult, but consider that you don't have to tighten up (stay extremely loose and fluid), you can train yourself to not be angry and not build adrenaline, and you can stay as neutral as possible and ONLY concentrate on the extremely small nearly intangible moments like that and if you don't learn it you don't try anything else and lose and lose and lose and lose, you get better at doing that.
Bodies adapt, but it really depends what you tell your body it isn't doing enough at, and if you tell your body it's not doing well enough at pure skill your body will listen.
Lev... we're not talking about the same thing. We really aren't. What you are talking about is bodily principles. What I'm talking about is the psychological level. When your own emotions come into play then 95% of what you've learned goes *fwoosh* and what's left is an adrenaline-heavy and very dumb body that only understands basic movements.


I'd like to see someone in a stability karate stance get in range of hitting me while I simply walk away.
have you ever sparred with a good karateka? A stance is a transitory state, not one you adopt indefinitely.


I wonder if you play chess.
Nah. I have enough hobbies, and chess pieces make horrible improvised weapons. :smallbiggrin:


When an arm plunges at you they give you an arm, if it has a knife in it or is just a fist it's the same thing (spare a few inches), either way that arm is yours, if not they trace the line back to their body as they retract the arm which pins their forward arm against their body
Yes, yes, I understand the technical principle, but yet again, that's not what I'm talking about.
Plus, it does make a HUGE difference if there is a knife or not. In order to do something serious with an empty hand, you need a structure, a technique and a reasonable amount of strength. With a knife, you need absolutely none of those. The knife is by far the deadliest melee weapon you can encounter on the street. Never underestimate it, nevermind how good, how strong or how experienced the wielder is.


Teaching people about martial arts they at-heart are not willing to learn is not good practice at preserving the insights of the arts.
Just for clarifications: I do practice Tai Ji Quan, and I'm convinced there are interesting principles in the video you showed. It is, nevertheless, an awful video, where the important part are hidden under a mass of complaisant students who really aren't doing their master or their style a favor.


Believe what you want, seek what you want.
Who doesn't?


Boxing is a sport, to fight other boxers.
That's true. It doesn't mean it's useless in a street fight. Quite the contrary, actually.

[Erts]

Yeah, people underestimate boxing. From what I've seen, what Anuan said about BJJ's philosophy (Sure, I'm not well rounded but I don't need to be) is pretty much boxings philosophy. They don't need to learn to kick or grapple, if you get punched in the head by one of them, it will hurt. A lot.

Still, nice job Anuan, sounds pretty BA what you did.

[Lev]

As much as I'd love to live in Carebear Land too, the kind of scene you describe only works under very specific conditions that do not accurately reflect an aggression's true context. In Germany, police statistics show that 99% of the time, the person attacking you will be either armed or in a group. Taking away the will to fight by presence and non-aggression is something you have to do before combat starts. Once it does, it's too late.
How do police statistics count instances that are not reported to the police?


Lev... we're not talking about the same thing. We really aren't. What you are talking about is bodily principles. What I'm talking about is the psychological level. When your own emotions come into play then 95% of what you've learned goes *fwoosh* and what's left is an adrenaline-heavy and very dumb body that only understands basic movements.
http://100megsfree4.com/abcsofdbz/gallery/popo.jpg


Nah. I have enough hobbies, and chess pieces make horrible improvised weapons.
The mind is a good weapon.


Just for clarifications: I do practice Tai Ji Quan, and I'm convinced there are interesting principles in the video you showed. It is, nevertheless, an awful video, where the important part are hidden under a mass of complaisant students who really aren't doing their master or their style a favor.
Then it is not the right path for you at the moment.

[katans]

How do police statistics count instances that are not reported to the police?
How do those instances even count? At least police statistics are a solid fact. The rest is mere suppositions.


The mind is a good weapon.
Unless you're going to start talking about Jedi mind tricks you'll need a clarification here. A street fight is something that lasts at best 5 seconds. There simply is no time for refined strategy. This is not even war, it's survival against a predator. The chess analogy is IMO extremely wrong.


Then it is not the right path for you at the moment.
If you can tell that after exchanging less than 10 posts on a web forum and never actually meeting me, seeing a video of me, or even knowing my history, then yeah, I agree it's better we stop the discussion here.
It's alright to have your own map of the world - we all do - but at least recognize there are other maps that are not necessarily less valid than yours.

[katans]

Hadn't noticed this before...


Ah I see, if you lose, you called the police or what? I don't see how walking out of there with your teeth intact involves a court.

Very easy. If you win, chances are high that the aggressor will sue YOU. He's the one who came with his 8 witness/pals after all.

I trained a while with a jiu-jutsu instructor that also happens to be a seasoned policeman. I don't know where you live, but according to him, in Germany/Switzerland/Austria, this kind of stuff happens all the time. And every decent self-defense instructor will tell you the same thing.

[Lev]

How do those instances even count? At least police statistics are a solid fact. The rest is mere suppositions.
If by questioning the validity of my points on the basis that they are suppositions then I see no reason to further push any of your points, including the supposition that a police statistic is more insightful than drawing from how that statistic is formed.


Unless you're going to start talking about Jedi mind tricks you'll need a clarification here. A street fight is something that lasts at best 5 seconds. There simply is no time for refined strategy. This is not even war, it's survival against a predator. The chess analogy is IMO extremely wrong.
Not sure what analogy that was, but yes not everyone will learn every lesson from everything they ever do.


If you can tell that after exchanging less than 10 posts on a web forum and never actually meeting me, seeing a video of me, or even knowing my history, then yeah, I agree it's better we stop the discussion here.
It's alright to have your own map of the world - we all do - but at least recognize there are other maps that are not necessarily less valid than yours.
Of course, it's just that Tai Chi is structured to Taoism, that's all I meant.


Very easy. If you win, chances are high that the aggressor will sue YOU. He's the one who came with his 8 witness/pals after all.

I trained a while with a jiu-jutsu instructor that also happens to be a seasoned policeman. I don't know where you live, but according to him, in Germany/Switzerland/Austria, this kind of stuff happens all the time. And every decent self-defense instructor will tell you the same thing.
This is a very good point, I have to admit I've never stepped inside a court, I have not sued anyone or have been on the receiving end in my life. It seems like a tricky situation to deal with, and most of all I'm fairly ignorant on how many people lie in courts when testifying.


I don't know where you live
Vancouver, Canada, BC
I just exited a career as a professional fire performer (pseudoweaponry) and am training to be a fire fighter while being mentored by a Taoist bodyworker with a 10 year martial tai chi background studying and living 2 blocks away from one of the best in the world. Nice to meet you =]

[katans]

If by questioning the validity of my points on the basis that they are suppositions then I see no reason to further push any of your points, including the supposition that a police statistic is more insightful than drawing from how that statistic is formed.
That's not what I meant and I did not intend to insult you, apologies if you felt that way. What I'm saying is that police statistics are an objective fact everyone can verify. Your experience is only in your head, and no one can verify that. Sure, you could do your own stats and say "in my experience, this and that happens" and be honest about it, but it would be nothing more than what the police does, only on a smaller scale. Invoking your own timely limited experience against a huge block of data is a bit pointless, unless you invoke a completely different validity claim.


Not sure what analogy that was
You tell me. You brought it up, after all, by asking me if I ever played chess. Why did you ask that in the first place?


Of course, it's just that Tai Chi is structured to Taoism, that's all I meant.
Which isn't my point, really. Bodily principles are the same, never mind the philosophy of the art. Sure, Tai Ji uses Taoist analogies and aphorism to describe a bodily state, but it is merely a language convention. You could express the same thing with different words.

Maybe we should go on per PM; I doubt anybody's still reading this thread, given that the original question has already been answered...

[rakkoon]

People, relax :smallsmile:
I'm enjoying myself too much on this thread to see it locked.
Let's just all agree that Ninjutsu is the supreme Martial Art and leave it at that :smallwink:

How about weapons, which weapons do you train with?
Me mainly Rokchaku bo (Staff 6 feet) , Hanbo (Staff 3 feet) and Boken (Wooden sword). Some Naginata (halberd) and Tanto (knife), a small amount of Nyo y bo (huge log) and the small wooden stick that looks like a chopstick and is called Ten no icho if I can remember correctly (google doesn't help :smallfrown:);

They can help with understanding how to fight unarmed, mainly I do it for the fun of it :smallbiggrin:

[Anuan]

As far as weapons go I'm more experienced with western styles. I'm a big fan of axes, but I'm better with a single-handed sword and shield, and with swords I can use in a hand-and-a-half style. Longsword, katana, etc.
Note that by 'hand and a half' I mean merely that I can use a single hand when applicable even if it is generally used with two hands. I am not suggesting there are many similarities in the German use of a Langshwert and Japanese styles of swordplay.
Also, interesting note, the more correct term for a Bokken is 'Bokuto' :smallbiggrin:
Also, Rakkoon ol' buddy, a Naginata is physically closer to a Glaive than a Halberd >.>

[katans]

Let's just all agree that Ninjutsu is the supreme Martial Art and leave it at that :smallwink:
You got it all wrong. Yellow Bamboo is.
(aaaand I'm outta here)


How about weapons, which weapons do you train with?
All types of knives, short staff (escrima-like), medium staff (3-4 feet), chain, whip, all types of one-handed edged swords (meaning no rapiers or similar), spear, improvised weapons (cable stub used as a sap, pen, belt, chair, bank, umbrella...). Did a bit of longstaff and fan in my kung fu times, but that's a while ago.

[Spiryt]

Just for the nitpick, as I understand it, naginata doesn't have much common with halberd at all.

Quite a bit with many glaives on the other hand.

http://www.samuraisam.net/SamuraiNaginata.jpg
http://armor.com/images/custom930b.jpg

Not that one necessarily, but I'm to lazy for other examples. :smalltongue:

[Lev]

That's not what I meant and I did not intend to insult you, apologies if you felt that way. What I'm saying is that police statistics are an objective fact everyone can verify. Your experience is only in your head, and no one can verify that. Sure, you could do your own stats and say "in my experience, this and that happens" and be honest about it, but it would be nothing more than what the police does, only on a smaller scale. Invoking your own timely limited experience against a huge block of data is a bit pointless, unless you invoke a completely different validity claim.
Actually, I just expanded on how the data was gathered, it is not about insults or suppositions, it's about backing up the validity of your data.

So, you can either state that it's only by your supposition that the data gathered is correct and by doing so nail yourself to your point and causing a point-neutrality.
Or you can expand on your data to back it up, though I very much doubt you have any actual information on that process as you already would have shared it by now, which is why I nailed the supposition point before I redirected back into the data expansion point because it was a clear dodge whether intentional or not. :smallwink:


You tell me. You brought it up, after all, by asking me if I ever played chess. Why did you ask that in the first place?
Most of my comments are layered with rhetoric.


Which isn't my point, really. Bodily principles are the same, never mind the philosophy of the art. Sure, Tai Ji uses Taoist analogies and aphorism to describe a bodily state, but it is merely a language convention. You could express the same thing with different words.
Do you mean analogies from the Tao te Ching? Because Taoism doesn't have words.


Maybe we should go on per PM
I'd personally like to draw from this forum's experience, especially around the police and court system issue.


How about weapons, which weapons do you train with?
Throwing Knife, Combat Knife, Chain Flail, 9 Section Whip, Rope dart, Double Meteor Hammer, Sword-Chuck, Jian, Club, and starting Melon Hammer soon, after that machete (juggling flaming ones).

[rakkoon]

* Googles 'glaive' *

* see results *

* wonders if there are any native English speakers on this forum :smallbiggrin: *

Three results on first page (largest one is glaive.jpg ):
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:-GGA6JqFnix9IM:http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/48591.gifhttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:DiU1NXlCJ3hkKM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Glaive_G-42a_(PSF).pnghttp://www.edhellen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/glaivel.jpg

But yeah whatever, if you know what a naginata is, don't bother with the translation

Lots of people with chains here...would like some lessons :smalltongue:

[Spiryt]

Wow, damn Warcraft seriously infested google... :smalleek:

Fortunately, quickly going Deutsch "Glefe" for a while brought me this on the first page, so it's not so bad everywhere :smallwink:

http://www.midgard-wiki.de/images/thumb/f/f5/Glefe_1540_Italy_L2830_B91.jpg/180px-Glefe_1540_Italy_L2830_B91.jpg

[Anuan]

* Googles 'glaive' *

* see results *

* wonders if there are any native English speakers on this forum :smallbiggrin: *

Three results on first page (largest one is glaive.jpg ):
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:-GGA6JqFnix9IM:http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/48591.gifhttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:DiU1NXlCJ3hkKM:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1a/Glaive_G-42a_(PSF).pnghttp://www.edhellen.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/glaivel.jpg

But yeah whatever, if you know what a naginata is, don't bother with the translation

Lots of people with chains here...would like some lessons :smalltongue:

None of those pictures are correct :smallyuk:. Go to Wiki and look up Glaive, you'll find the ones more like Spiryt is posting. A Glaive is a sword-bladed polearm. A Naginata is a sword-bladed polearm, though with a different construction. A halberd is a polearm with an axe-like head, thrusting point and back-hook or pike-end. Nitpicking yaaay! XD



I'd personally like to draw from this forum's experience, especially around the police and court system issue.

If you hurt someone seriously in self-defense, at least here, you can and often will be sued. I'm lucky, most of the people I've had fights with were generally violent or otherwise petty juvenile criminals. They couldn't go to the police, because they were both scared of going to police, and scared of having it public knowledge that they'd picked a fight with the weird kid with the long hair and got their rear ends handed to them.

A streetfight lasts a lot longer than five seconds, especially if there's multiple people or there's previous history with the person. However, as Katans said, it's not like chess. Strategy doesn't really come into it most of the time for a real fight, and when it does, it usually flies out the window when you get punched in the face.
In the end, what they're trying to do is hurt you, damage you, and in some cases take what you want or even kill you. Fights can go on as long as they need to if something's at stake, even if it's something as simple as pride. Even with someone with training vs someone untrained, it will go on a lot longer than five seconds, because even if you can evade them, they'll keep coming. If you hit them, or take them down, or whatever, if you havn't knocked them out or broken a limb or whatever in that one technique, they will keep coming. They want to hurt you. A smack in the jaw will not stop them. Sometimes it just comes down to who lands the most hits, who hits harder, and who can take the most hits.

Sometimes adrenaline does get the best of you, and you can't think clearly enough to spot moments for techniques, and you best hope you can either take a beating or you're good enough to automatically bring out the best technique for the situation. Hint; unless you've been training for years and years and years, you aren't. Even then, you probably aren't. Nobody's invincible. I've won a lot of fights, but I've also been held down by three guys whilst being kicked around by a few more. There's some situations where your best technique is running the hell away. Or having a gun and a way of disposing bodies without getting caught.

Tl;dr: Katans is right.



Throwing Knife, Combat Knife, Chain Flail, 9 Section Whip, Rope dart, Double Meteor Hammer, Sword-Chuck, Jian, Club, and starting Melon Hammer soon, after that machete (juggling flaming ones).
You said you mostly had pseudoweaponry training for your fireperforming (which is pretty cool, btw, and I would like pics or vids.). How many of those weapons are you trained to use to disable or effectively defend against someone who knows what they're doing, instead of just doing things that look really really cool?

[katans]

Do you mean analogies from the Tao te Ching? Because Taoism doesn't have words.
Oh please. Don't start playing on words. Otherwise I'd like to hear a definition of Taoism from you.


I'd personally like to draw from this forum's experience, especially around the police and court system issue.
Good enough a reason.


Lots of people with chains here...would like some lessons
Give your buddy a chain, tell him to hit you with it (body only, for a start), try not to get hit. Start veeeeeery slowly, then increase speed progressively. If using a standard chain from the hardware store, be careful of the little cast imperfections; they can be pretty sharp. Also search "systema chain" on Youtube for ideas and inspiration.

[Anuan]

Give your buddy a chain, tell him to hit you with it (body only, for a start), try not to get hit. Start veeeeeery slowly, then increase speed progressively. If using a standard chain from the hardware store, be careful of the little cast imperfections; they can be pretty sharp. Also search "systema chain" on Youtube for ideas and inspiration.

I'd suggest wearing a cup or something, too :smalltongue:
Also, hell-yes, Systema <3

[Spiryt]

Give your buddy a chain, tell him to hit you with it (body only, for a start), try not to get hit. Start veeeeeery slowly, then increase speed progressively. If using a standard chain from the hardware store, be careful of the little cast imperfections; they can be pretty sharp. Also search "systema chain" on Youtube for ideas and inspiration.

I would also suggest wearing some dam padding and mask, unless you're willing to go all Spetznaz. :smallwink:

[katans]

Actually, no. You should wear as little protective gear as possible, simply because pain is a very good teacher. This is why you start very slowly and only start increasing after a few dozen hours of practice: you should feel when you did wrong, but it should not really hurt. In Systema, we prefer starting very carefully and increasing rhythm further on as participants grow more experienced, rather than hiding beginners in protective gear and tell them to go at full force against one another.

[Anuan]

I understand that, but I'd probably wear a cup. Maybe some sort of face protection.
Then again, I've got history and reasons to be paranoid enough to wear a cup.

[rakkoon]

Yeah...I once played with nunchuks while in my jammies...underwear people. Put on underwear first!

[Erts]

Yeah...I once played with nunchuks while in my jammies...underwear people. Put on underwear first!

:smalleek:
Ouch...
Something similar happened to a friend when we were "sparring without anything on."
Very painful, luckily, I did not kick very hard.

[Lev]

If you hurt someone seriously in self-defense, at least here, you can and often will be sued. I'm lucky, most of the people I've had fights with were generally violent or otherwise petty juvenile criminals. They couldn't go to the police, because they were both scared of going to police, and scared of having it public knowledge that they'd picked a fight with the weird kid with the long hair and got their rear ends handed to them.

A streetfight lasts a lot longer than five seconds, especially if there's multiple people or there's previous history with the person. However, as Katans said, it's not like chess. Strategy doesn't really come into it most of the time for a real fight, and when it does, it usually flies out the window when you get punched in the face.
In the end, what they're trying to do is hurt you, damage you, and in some cases take what you want or even kill you. Fights can go on as long as they need to if something's at stake, even if it's something as simple as pride. Even with someone with training vs someone untrained, it will go on a lot longer than five seconds, because even if you can evade them, they'll keep coming. If you hit them, or take them down, or whatever, if you havn't knocked them out or broken a limb or whatever in that one technique, they will keep coming. They want to hurt you. A smack in the jaw will not stop them. Sometimes it just comes down to who lands the most hits, who hits harder, and who can take the most hits.

Sometimes adrenaline does get the best of you, and you can't think clearly enough to spot moments for techniques, and you best hope you can either take a beating or you're good enough to automatically bring out the best technique for the situation. Hint; unless you've been training for years and years and years, you aren't. Even then, you probably aren't. Nobody's invincible. I've won a lot of fights, but I've also been held down by three guys whilst being kicked around by a few more. There's some situations where your best technique is running the hell away. Or having a gun and a way of disposing bodies without getting caught.

Tl;dr: Katans is right.
Good insight there, I don't have any experience on realistic multi-opponent combat, and the only training I put serious time into is soft 1v1 training and analyzing balance, bodystructure, intent and movement just through vision, feel and anatomical studies (which forms the rapid foundation for understanding any style I spar with.

Chess forms the brain up and it's kind of silly to believe in martial arts that train physical structure and physical kneejerk reaction and physical speed and then to turn around and say the validity of mental structure, mental reaction and mental speed isn't effective to improve :smallwink:

TBH if 2 guys came after me even untrained and I used soft styles alone I'd be gone, and if I used hard styles I could be sued. Very tricky indeed, I'll think about this hard! Not every fight can be ended with an airlock!

Oh and don't worry about walls of text, I always load up my text-to-speech software when I visit this forum ;p


You said you mostly had pseudoweaponry training for your fireperforming (which is pretty cool, btw, and I would like pics or vids.). How many of those weapons are you trained to use to disable or effectively defend against someone who knows what they're doing, instead of just doing things that look really really cool?
Jian, knife, throwing knife and club I'm martially trained it (my club has a hook on it), and the club will evolve into melon hammer soon which will also be martial. The rest are more an outlet for fire performance and trained not to hit anything (2000+ hours of training).

All my vids are oversimplified as the troupe I was going around with before was multi-tool and I was the only one really trained specifically at a single fire art. Their philosophy was that as soon as it's on fire people don't care how it looks... which is correct on a fire performance standpoint but not on a dance standpoint or any system of projecting emotional energy.

Some solo pics by request:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9589/14562957.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3881/butterflyd.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5131/ohmv.jpg




Oh please. Don't start playing on words. Otherwise I'd like to hear a definition of Taoism from you.
Cool story bro, if "Taoism can't be defined by words" isn't clear enough then I guess you got me.


Lots of people with chains here...would like some lessons
Start with a padding on 1/3 of it, the most damage you will do to yourself is with the tip so get that stuff as soft as possible while keeping in mind that air resistance will change the properties.


pain is a very good teacher
Pain is a good teacher, it teaches you about pain.
It codes a reaction that's keyed to your survival instinct, we learn to abuse those kneejerk reactions. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten people to punch themselves in the head because of that.

[Anuan]

Good insight there, I don't have any experience on realistic multi-opponent combat, and the only training I put serious time into is soft 1v1 training and analyzing balance, bodystructure, intent and movement just through vision, feel and anatomical studies (which forms the rapid foundation for understanding any style I spar with.

Bolded for detriments, underlined for good things.



Chess forms the brain up and it's kind of silly to believe in martial arts that train physical structure and physical kneejerk reaction and physical speed and then to turn around and say the validity of mental structure, mental reaction and mental speed isn't effective to improve :smallwink:

Chess does indeed train the mind, but it trains it to think about things you can see and analyse for multiple steps ahead. With strong rules.
Mental structure, mental reaction and mental speed are all very important. It's how I managed to perform in the way I did against the boxer mentioned a page or so back. However, chess is not necessarily a good way of training to respond correctly in a martial situation. Seeing a rook and bishop come together for an assault on both your knights over a few moves does not equal realising you need to sidestep a kick and attack their balancing leg in about a quarter of a second. In fact, the way you put that implied heavily that I was saying that physicality is the only important part to this, which means either you didn't read what I said properly, or you're trying to goad me.

Most martial arts, even the hard styles, teach mental focus and mental processing to overcome the body's kneejerk reactions, and even the ones that do get taught to allow musclememory from your training to take over and just allow basic fighting instict to take over rather than use planning, get proper technique built up to the level that your automatic reactions are effective, rather than the body's usual reaction of 'OH GOD FLAIL AT IT WITH YOUR FISTS.'


TBH if 2 guys came after me even untrained and I used soft styles alone I'd be gone, and if I used hard styles I could be sued. Very tricky indeed, I'll think about this hard! Not every fight can be ended with an airlock!

Oh and don't worry about walls of text, I always load up my text-to-speech software when I visit this forum ;p

Yes, most fights end very unpleasantly. If there's more than one person, your best bet is to either run the hell away, or hope they've got reason to not go to the police.



Jian, knife, throwing knife and club I'm martially trained it (my club has a hook on it), and the club will evolve into melon hammer soon which will also be martial. The rest are more an outlet for fire performance and trained not to hit anything (2000+ hours of training).

All my vids are oversimplified as the troupe I was going around with before was multi-tool and I was the only one really trained specifically at a single fire art. Their philosophy was that as soon as it's on fire people don't care how it looks... which is correct on a fire performance standpoint but not on a dance standpoint or any system of projecting emotional energy.

Some solo pics by request:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9589/14562957.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3881/butterflyd.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5131/ohmv.jpg

Cool pics. And yes, as far as just performing, most people just go '=D IT'S ON FIRE! IT'S MOVING! WOOO!' when watching. I've done some staff techniques with one or both ends on fire and had some people rather impressed :smalltongue:



Pain is a good teacher, it teaches you about pain.
It codes a reaction that's keyed to your survival instinct, we learn to abuse those kneejerk reactions. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten people to punch themselves in the head because of that.

Mixing your martial study with what the body is naturaly designed to do is effective. Your body does not want to get hurt. It wants to avoid pain wherever possible. Its kneejerk reaction is to flail away from the cause of the pain. If you train it to know that something else is more effective, that becomes the reaction.

[Lev]

Chess does indeed train the mind, but it trains it to think about things you can see and analyse for multiple steps ahead. With strong rules.
Mental structure, mental reaction and mental speed are all very important. It's how I managed to perform in the way I did against the boxer mentioned a page or so back. However, chess is not necessarily a good way of training to respond correctly in a martial situation. Seeing a rook and bishop come together for an assault on both your knights over a few moves does not equal realising you need to sidestep a kick and attack their balancing leg in about a quarter of a second. In fact, the way you put that implied heavily that I was saying that physicality is the only important part to this, which means either you didn't read what I said properly, or you're trying to goad me.
I play chess and am taught to play chess (as part of my training) in a different manner. Develop pieces (allow all your pieces to cover each others spots, allow them to cover as many angles as possible), see shapes rather than process (in your mind you start to see pieces and notice an overlay on the grid of where they can move, a knight creates a black bold T ontop of the board for instance, this process of vision also can be applied martially by seeing the shape of their body and mixed with anatomical studies you can see inside their body, how they line up, what is where, moving where, weaknesses and flaws suddenly become hugely apparent at first glance), and yes to think more than anything about avenues of checkmate rather than concentrating on what pieces you can take, you see the process of chess teaches you a way of thinking more akin to being evenly matched and evenly capable rather than relying on any specific style of movement. I agree this def. doesn't apply to a lot of the thinking processes of other martial arts, but it compliments my style training so perfectly. :smallsmile:
There is a rule and philosophy behind every chess match, which is take as little of the enemy's pieces as possible, and if they only have 1 or less pieces left you have to checkmate them in 3 moves or you lose.

Remember that true strategy whether simple martial involving courts, military involving resources and land or diplomatic involving contacts and allies all rely on getting the end result in the most efficient means possible, why finish a fight by hurting them when you have another option?

I'm not saying my fighting style is the best, but I am saying it's on the Good side of the alignment spectrum.


I've done some staff techniques with one or both ends on fire and had some people rather impressed.
Staff is hazardous, we generally see people come into the community using staff because they still aren't ready for fire and they feel that while using a staff they wont get burned, which is true most of the time but when it does happen it can be kinda traumatizing-- you should only play with fire if you are OK with at least first degree burns every time you try! =]


Mixing your martial study with what the body is naturaly designed to do is effective. Your body does not want to get hurt. It wants to avoid pain wherever possible. Its kneejerk reaction is to flail away from the cause of the pain. If you train it to know that something else is more effective, that becomes the reaction.
Truth, I represent and praise formlessness (except very specific form (http://www.bbcfl.com/BBCFL%20-%20Newsletters%20-%2008%20-%20February_files/at%20Superficial%20back%20Line.gif)), I'm not a good person to validate the benefits of having a solidified reaction!

[rakkoon]

I like your approach. I say I want some lessons in fighting with/against a chain and you guys say "Let someone attack you with a chain".
Good point that you'll quickly find out what works and what does not :smalltongue:

[Lev]

I like your approach. I say I want some lessons in fighting with/against a chain and you guys say "Let someone attack you with a chain".
Good point that you'll quickly find out what works and what does not :smalltongue:
Chains are improvised weapons, did you want advice on a specific soft weapon?

[rakkoon]

Was just making conversation. We don't actually spar that much with weapons, more fixed attacks and counter-attacks. It's funny that most people here take the complete opposite approach :smallsmile:

Uhm, I know I can google this but a chain is a soft weapon?

[katans]

Good insight there, I don't have any experience on realistic multi-opponent combat
Why not get some, just for the sake of knowing what can happen? I understand about personal preferences and time investment, but taking a look over the edge never harmed anybody. If you walk to another training group and say "Hey, I'm XXX, I train this and that, and I'd like to see something different, care to show me?", most people will be happy to exchange.



Chess forms the brain up and it's kind of silly to believe in martial arts that train physical structure and physical kneejerk reaction and physical speed and then to turn around and say the validity of mental structure, mental reaction and mental speed isn't effective to improve :smallwink:
Oh, it is. But while you're at it, why not use specific exercises?



TBH if 2 guys came after me even untrained and I used soft styles alone I'd be gone, and if I used hard styles I could be sued. Very tricky indeed, I'll think about this hard!
It's all a question of the finality of your training. If you train for the street, or for survival, then you have to ask yourself such questions. If you train for war, the police, competition, health, because you want to score with that chick in your class, for family tradition... then you will of course have different considerations.



Some solo pics by request:

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9589/14562957.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/3881/butterflyd.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5131/ohmv.jpg

Wow. It's on fire! It's moving! OMGWTFBBQ !
:smallbiggrin:



Cool story bro, if "Taoism can't be defined by words" isn't clear enough then I guess you got me.
I'm simply a friend of clear words when clear words can be used.



Pain is a good teacher, it teaches you about pain.
It codes a reaction that's keyed to your survival instinct, we learn to abuse those kneejerk reactions. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten people to punch themselves in the head because of that.
Well then, you can learn about those reactions as well and learn how to control them so you don't automatically fall prey to it.

@rakkoon: Basic systema chain for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwEnp9lsYYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXVK6ECgv7c
That will keep you occupied for a few hours.

[rakkoon]

That's a good link :smallbiggrin: , can't wait to try it out.

Damn I need more time in my life

[Anuan]

Was just making conversation. We don't actually spar that much with weapons, more fixed attacks and counter-attacks. It's funny that most people here take the complete opposite approach :smallsmile:

Uhm, I know I can google this but a chain is a soft weapon?

'Hard' weapons are anything that stays a uniform shape; swords, staffs, clubs, polearms, throwing weapons, etc.
'Soft' weapons, more aptly called 'flexible' weapons are just that; flexible. Chains, Chain-whips, Meteorhammers, Rope-darts, Kasurigama...Things with links of chain or rope or whatevever that mean they flex and move.

[Lev]

Was just making conversation. We don't actually spar that much with weapons, more fixed attacks and counter-attacks. It's funny that most people here take the complete opposite approach :smallsmile:

Uhm, I know I can google this but a chain is a soft weapon?

Any weapon who's structure pivots at pretty much every bit of length is considered a soft weapon, such as a mace on a rope (meteor hammer) or a chain (9 section whip) or cool razor-wire like swords (Urumi)


If you walk to another training group and say "Hey, I'm XXX, I train this and that, and I'd like to see something different, care to show me?", most people will be happy to exchange.
Oh yes, that's basically all I do at parties. In fact, unless I haven't been introduced to someone just a passing nudge is enough to start a soft sparring session as everyone feels better, more aligned, has better posture and grows a bit with each session. I've just not tried multiple people before. :smallsmile:


Oh, it is. But while you're at it, why not use specific exercises?
Cycling through things is a good way to maintain fluidity, pinning yourself down is a good way to have someone figure you out.


It's all a question of the finality of your training. If you train for the street, or for survival, then you have to ask yourself such questions. If you train for war, the police, competition, health, because you want to score with that chick in your class, for family tradition... then you will of course have different considerations.
I totally agree, when people fight no one wins, so for me the wisest thing to do is to do damage control on the loss before it happens, rather than just looking out for me.


I'm simply a friend of clear words when clear words can be used.
Tao = Tao
That is taoism.


Well then, you can learn about those reactions as well and learn how to control them so you don't automatically fall prey to it.
Good point, but I like to lightly write down my mental progress so when I need to erase it all it doesn't leave marks all over my paper.


@rakkoon: Basic systema chain for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwEnp9lsYYA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXVK6ECgv7c
That will keep you occupied for a few hours.
Some pretty far out concepts there, first strike in video 2 is called a Stall in Poi-- it's just neutralizing the energy out of the chain.... can you do damage with that or is it just a distracting swing to force the guy to evade? Personally I don't think I could ever do damage with the mid-swing of a stall unless it was a VERY heavy chain (in which case the stall would require more downtime to negate the momentum of the chain)
The real way to change direction with a chain in mid-air is called an S curve, and is really hard to explain in text. Basically it's the same thing as he was doing except you neutralize the end of the chain in relation to the movement of your hand, once that's accomplished you can make any direction change you want while keeping the momentum going. It can be anywhere moving any speed but it helps if the chain is about or less than 2' as the clearance to your inner body (grip to torso) is only about 22"-26" as swinging inner-body frees up a lot of the moments of a chain in 1 hand while keeping the shoulderline neutral and free.

Rak-Ka-Koon (That's how I pronounce your name in my head, every time :smallbiggrin:)
Here's an old video, NG's 9 section whip showcase: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcPr-AP1Vss

[Lev]

Inspired by Katans and Anuan:


It came to my attention a little while ago that almost all martial art scenarios concentrate heavily on the 1 vs 1 scenario both in philosophy, physically and legally.
But, what if you are jumped by 2-8 guys, and what if they are armed?
If you lose, it could be very bad, if you win but hurt them, they could testify against you and you could get sued, stupid but true!

Circle sparring is a way to combine the effects of non-injury martial arts, multi-opponent combat and parkour.

1) Set up a large circle as the sparring field.
2) Spar within the circle, once you have the advantage run across the edge of the circle
3) After crossing the circle edge your opponent has 5 seconds to cross the edge as well, or you gain a point.
4) If he does cross before 5 seconds, neither of you gains a point and the round ends.
5) A running tab is kept of everyone's points, and recorded. The highest ranked is considered King.
6) If your opponent is injured in a session (past self-inflicted injuries such as twisted ankles, ect) you lose all points and start at 0.
7) Be respectful of your opponent's well-being.


To Be Determined:
-Additional Rules
-Multi-Opponent Systems
-Armed Opponent Simulation
-Circle Sizes

An email I sent out to my friends for next week, we are gonna start doing this exercise freestyle to encourage inventive tactics rather than solid form or direction.

What do you guys think, how can this be expanded?

[ForzaFiori]

Weapons I'm trained in: From my Okinowan Gojo-ryu and Kobudo: Bo (6 foot, I can never spell its full name), tonfa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonfa), Sai (like what electra uses in DareDevil, except traditionally not sharpened, which, strangely, makes it hurt more), and nunchaku.

Kuk Sool Won(my new style) will eventually teach several styles of staff (long, medium, short, double medium, and double short) sword (short, long, and double short) nunchaku, and a couple others I don't remember. However, that won't start until blue or brown belt.

[rakkoon]

@Lev

In the circle, it's three against one or... ?

[Lev]

@Lev

In the circle, it's three against one or... ?

It's whoever steps into the circle, and it ends 5 seconds after someone leaves.
We are going to add rubber training knives, ect.

[rakkoon]

Sounds like fun then.
Next month all our training (Kempo/mma wise that is) is done outdoors. Apparently they run on a track and there are many cool objects to get freaky with. Looking forward to it but only if the weather's good.
I'm a softie :smallsmile: