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waterpenguin43
2010-05-08, 09:29 AM
I had the strangest urge to make a guide to types of DM's that are destined to go wrong. Don't ask why.

Conductors

A conductor goes with the term "railroading". Essentially, it's a DM who wants things to work in one and only one way. Sort of like a video game developer. Unfortunately, tabletop games aren't the same. Players want freedom. All DM's know how frustrating it is when an encounter or plot twist goes down the toilet, but you need to see things from the PC's perspective.

Freddy Krueger DM's

You might be wondering what I mean by this title. Have you seen the Nightmare on Elm Street series? Or heard of it? If not, look it up. Anyways, Freddy Krueger is a killer who murders children in their dreams. He changes the world around them to try and kill them. This refers to DM's who do this. If you're a Freddy Krueger DM, you remake encounters, dungeons and situations to try and kill the characters. This is not a good idea. You want your encounters to be challenging or even downright hard, but don't change them just to counter a player's or character's strengths.

Predictable DM's

This DM, unlike the others, isn't doing wrong to the players, but is doing wrong to his campaign. If you make a dungeon filled with nothing but mind flayers, your players will prepare to fight mind flayers and kill them all. If their is a lot of a certain species in the area, you can have a LOT of them, but try and add some other types of monsters so PC's don't just have to go against one type of monster.

Cloud DM's
"You are nothing but a Puppet" Sephiroth to clouds speech after killing aeris. Or maybey reffering to these. A common phrase is "Ok go on then" You give the players freedom. too much of it. Before you know it theyve destroyed your main city, killed plot points, and gone on murderous rampages.
it isn't necessarily a disaster -sometimes it works well- but it's dangerous.

Backseat Driver

Like a Conductor, but without the planning. A Backseat Driver makes a railroad plot, in which one, not always obvious, solution is the key to victory, butt then does not make it clear that that is his intent, and so stumbles around when the PC's seek other option

The Scrooge

This is the DM that, for one reason or another, drastically under-rewards the PCs for fights. Most commonly seen in 'low-wealth' or 'low-magic' games, with a fraction of expected WBL, but still using by-the-book encounters CR-wise. The most egregious Scrooges will have what wealth they do include in the form of consumables, and have the monsters make use of them liberally.

Mr. Crack's Under Pressure
This DM plans ahead and seems calm and well prepared for when the characters decide to do something odd. That is until they do something so bizarre/unexpected that he simply has no idea how to respond. This wasn't in one of his contingency plans and he simply has no idea how to respond, devolving into a backseat driver as he desperately tries to get the game back on track.

The Unprepared DM

This DM arrived at the table without a sound plan or, often, a solid grasp of the rules. Gameplay crawls by as monsters are looked up in books, the details of players' actions are checked and rechecked, and the DM struggles to string together encounters into an interesting storyline. The backseat driver is a lesser variant of this problem DM archetype, when rules and basic plot are understood, but no contingency plans are made for unpredictable players.

The Megalomaniac DM

This DM knows Rule 0, if nothing else. He is running the game because that means he gets to run the lives of several hapless players for a few hours. Rather than designing or redesigning a dungeon to screw the players over, as a Freddy Krueger DM would, this DM simply decrees that the players have been screwed. This DM archetype overlaps with Conductors, who may railroad specifically to demonstrate their control over the players; and with DMPCs, who use the eponymous creation as a mechanism for self-gratification.
Anything to add?

Nidogg
2010-05-08, 09:48 AM
One of my freinds is a freddy. However, I choose to add yet another category, one in wich i fall into,

Cloud Dm's
"You are nothing but a Puppet" Sephiroth to clouds speech after killing aeris. Or maybey reffering to these. A common phrase is "Ok go on then" You give the players freedom. too much of it. Before you know it theyve destroyed your main city, killed plot points, and gone on murderous rampages. Its good to railroad a little, otherwise BAD stuff happens

jindra34
2010-05-08, 10:04 AM
Cloud Dm's
"You are nothing but a Puppet" Sephiroth to clouds speech after killing aeris. Or maybey reffering to these. A common phrase is "Ok go on then" You give the players freedom. too much of it. Before you know it theyve destroyed your main city, killed plot points, and gone on murderous rampages. Its good to railroad a little, otherwise BAD stuff happens

Note that this is a problem only if you actually have a planned plot. And if your PCs get to ignore the problems it causes.

BRC
2010-05-08, 10:06 AM
The Backseat Driver

Like a Conductor, but without the planning. A Backseat Driver makes a railroad plot, in which one, not always obvious, solution is the key to victory, butt then does not make it clear that that is his intent, and so stumbles around when the PC's seek other option

waterpenguin43
2010-05-08, 01:45 PM
Those two are so true sometimes. I'm going to add them.

Greenish
2010-05-08, 01:52 PM
Those two are so true sometimes. I'm going to add them."Cloud DM" isn't necessarily a "DM disaster". Sandboxing is a perfectly valid form of playing.

waterpenguin43
2010-05-08, 01:55 PM
"Cloud DM" isn't necessarily a "DM disaster". Sandboxing is a perfectly valid form of playing.

Good point. I'll add that it isn't necessarily a disaster, but it's dangerous.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-08, 05:12 PM
a 'Cloud DM' is definitely a polarizing one. If you plan for it and expect it, pure sandbox games can be amazing. If you're not prepared for any eventuality, the PCs will find the one thing to do that you hadn't expected, and everything falls apart.


I'd add:

"The Scrooge":

This is the DM that, for one reason or another, drastically under-rewards the PCs for fights. Most commonly seen in 'low-wealth' or 'low-magic' games, with a fraction of expected WBL, but still using by-the-book encounters CR-wise. The most egregious Scrooges will have what wealth they do include in the form of consumables, and have the monsters make use of them liberally.

nedz
2010-05-08, 05:34 PM
Good point. I'll add that it isn't necessarily a disaster, but it's dangerous.

Not dangerous, just more difficult perhaps ?
The trick is improvisation, and (ironically) the best improvisation requires preparation, planning etc.

Another one perhaps

The Dictator
A variation on the Conductor. Instead of the plot being railroaded, the plot hinges on a Chosen PC. It generally falls apart when the player of the Chosen One rejects their destiny. A greek tragedy follows.

Orannis
2010-05-08, 05:34 PM
My personal least favorite: The "Wants to be a Player" DM
Spends HOURS creating NPC badguys specifically built to beat every member of your party. Any change in your character and he changes his character to compensate. Also known for nerfing your character if it looks like you might have a chance of beating his bigbad in a fair fight. Sometimes in midfight uses DM fiat to keep his creation alive or to inflict damage.

waterpenguin43
2010-05-08, 05:38 PM
My personal least favorite: The "Wants to be a Player" DM
Spends HOURS creating NPC badguys specifically built to beat every member of your party. Any change in your character and he changes his character to compensate. Also known for nerfing your character if it looks like you might have a chance of beating his bigbad in a fair fight. Sometimes in midfight uses DM fiat to keep his creation alive or to inflict damage.

That's a Freddy Krueger GM, just narrowed down, I'm afraid. :smallfrown:

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-08, 05:49 PM
Mr Crack's under pressure:
This DM plans ahead and seems calm and well prepared for when the characters decide to do something odd. That is until they do something so bizarre/unexpected that he simply has no idea how to respond. This wasn't in one of his contingency plans and he simply has no idea how to react, devolving into a backseat driver as he desperately tries to get the game back on track.

This comes from experience when a player of mine neglected to mention that he had an adamantine greathammer which he used to collapse a weakened column and drop the entire 6 story building down on the party and their enemies, claiming it was for the greater good. This was followed by asking people to just make random rolls while I figured out how to fix the situation without having to start from scratch with new characters (except the a-hole who hit the column. He died. A lot).

Ignore if you like or reword as necessary.

Amphetryon
2010-05-08, 05:50 PM
DMPCer:
This is the DM who, for whatever reason, introduces an NPC to the party who is a Mary Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits) that proceeds to run roughshod over the monsters while reducing the rest of the party to either a cheering section or bored observers.

Roupe
2010-05-08, 06:52 PM
Training wheelsThis is the DM that, for one reason or another, drastically over-rewards the PCs for fights. The superfluous training wheels the GM provides, robs the players of any challenge or sport. Most easily spotted in 'low-wealth' or 'low-magic' games.

The munchkin GM handbook, had some really nice & humorous descriptions of Gamemaster types.

arguskos
2010-05-08, 07:03 PM
Mr Crack's under pressure:
This DM plans ahead and seems calm and well prepared for when the characters decide to do something odd. That is until they do something so bizarre/unexpected that he simply has no idea how to respond. This wasn't in one of his contingency plans and he simply has no idea how to react, devolving into a backseat driver as he desperately tries to get the game back on track.

This comes from experience when a player of mine neglected to mention that he had an adamantine greathammer which he used to collapse a weakened column and drop the entire 6 story building down on the party and their enemies, claiming it was for the greater good. This was followed by asking people to just make random rolls while I figured out how to fix the situation without having to start from scratch with new characters (except the a-hole who hit the column. He died. A lot).

Ignore if you like or reword as necessary.
That's... not a bad DM. That was a case of a DM getting screwed by a crappy player. Anyone gets flustered by such obviously disruptive and detrimental behavior, I don't feel that deserves to stand next to the Negative Railroader or the Scrooge or anything.

Boci
2010-05-08, 07:20 PM
That's... not a bad DM. That was a case of a DM getting screwed by a crappy player. Anyone gets flustered by such obviously disruptive and detrimental behavior, I don't feel that deserves to stand next to the Negative Railroader or the Scrooge or anything.

It depends exactly what causes the DM to crack. A player randomly comitting suicide is fine, but sometimes it is far less.

For example, I once had a plot that involved the PCs party had been infiltrated by a spy (they were traveling with 3 NPCs). Then one of the PCs cast detect thoughts and began asking questions. I realized this would flush out the spy pretty quickly. In my earlier days as a DM I would have made up some BS excuse for why it didn't work that would have ruined the feel of the party. That would be an example of a bad case of "DM who cracks under pressure". Luckily I had some expirience by then so I simply allowed them to dispose of the spy, then gave them a random encounter while I smoothed out the details of them jumping forwards a session in the plot.

Roupe
2010-05-08, 07:25 PM
A DM that cracks due to anything or minor derail events, deserves a place among the worst disaster GM types.

But a DM that cracks due to bully players, is also a GM disastrous event.

Reynard
2010-05-08, 07:33 PM
And if a DM is so honestly surprised by the dumbass move a player makes?

Like killing the entire party for no real reason?

krossbow
2010-05-08, 07:36 PM
A player killing the entire party for the lulz isn't the DM's fault, its the jackass player.

Flickerdart
2010-05-08, 08:19 PM
RAW DM
"These Advanced Monstrous Crabs are only CR5, you should be able to take on at least 10 of them." This DM places too much faith in WotC, and should be reminded that the Monk isn't proficient with fists.

arguskos
2010-05-08, 08:25 PM
A player killing the entire party for the lulz isn't the DM's fault, its the jackass player.
This was my point. The DM didn't kill them, a jackass did by collapsing a building on them all, including himself. The only thing that is the DM's fault is his NOT saving them, and honestly, I don't blame him. I wouldn't, if they were really that thick. I'd just explain, "hey guys, uh, I asked if you were sure, you said yes, you probably could have figured out that taking out that support column was a bad idea. Just sayin'."

Now, a DM who responds to such an event by just shutting down the game or freaking out, yes, that's a bad DM. However, the event in question? That's not a bad DM, that's a bad player and a DM who doesn't quite know how to respond.

Math_Mage
2010-05-09, 01:13 AM
The Unprepared DM
This DM arrived at the table without a sound plan or, often, a solid grasp of the rules. Gameplay crawls by as monsters are looked up in books, the details of players' actions are checked and rechecked, and the DM struggles to string together encounters into an interesting storyline. The backseat driver is a lesser variant of this problem DM archetype, when rules and basic plot are understood, but no contingency plans are made for unpredictable players.

The Megalomaniac DM
This DM knows Rule 0, if nothing else. He is running the game because that means he gets to run the lives of several hapless players for a few hours. Rather than designing or redesigning a dungeon to screw the players over, as a Freddy Krueger DM would, this DM simply decrees that the players have been screwed. This DM archetype overlaps with Conductors, who may railroad specifically to demonstrate their control over the players; and with DMPCs, who use the eponymous creation as a mechanism for self-gratification.

Milskidasith
2010-05-09, 01:25 AM
It seems as if this list contains every behavior besides making the game too easy and giving the players too much loot; having a strict plot, having no plot, giving the players too much freedom, railroading, only allowing one solution, getting flustered when the players try to use out of the box solutions, not giving enough loot, being too hard, being too predictable, being too freeform... all of those things are listed to a greater or lesser extent. It seems as if any DM who isn't one of the things listed is going to be another, unless they are a DM who makes an extremely easy game giving out a ton of loot filled with houserules and with just the right balance of allowing players the freedom to think outside the box while being able to deal with their outlandish suggestions and retaining a plot and never even gently hinting at the players to the right thing to do for the plot.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 01:34 AM
It seems as if this list contains every behavior besides making the game too easy and giving the players too much loot; having a strict plot, having no plot, giving the players too much freedom, railroading, only allowing one solution, getting flustered when the players try to use out of the box solutions, not giving enough loot, being too hard, being too predictable, being too freeform... all of those things are listed to a greater or lesser extent. It seems as if any DM who isn't one of the things listed is going to be another, unless they are a DM who makes an extremely easy game giving out a ton of loot filled with houserules and with just the right balance of allowing players the freedom to think outside the box while being able to deal with their outlandish suggestions and retaining a plot and never even gently hinting at the players to the right thing to do for the plot.It's cliché time!

You can't please everyone.
Everything in moderation.
:smallbiggrin:

Vaynor
2010-05-09, 01:58 AM
It seems as if this list contains every behavior besides making the game too easy and giving the players too much loot; having a strict plot, having no plot, giving the players too much freedom, railroading, only allowing one solution, getting flustered when the players try to use out of the box solutions, not giving enough loot, being too hard, being too predictable, being too freeform... all of those things are listed to a greater or lesser extent. It seems as if any DM who isn't one of the things listed is going to be another, unless they are a DM who makes an extremely easy game giving out a ton of loot filled with houserules and with just the right balance of allowing players the freedom to think outside the box while being able to deal with their outlandish suggestions and retaining a plot and never even gently hinting at the players to the right thing to do for the plot.

This thread could easily be summed up by saying "don't take any basic DM trait to the extreme."

Samm
2010-05-09, 02:18 AM
The Megalomaniac DM
This DM knows Rule 0, if nothing else. He is running the game because that means he gets to run the lives of several hapless players for a few hours. Rather than designing or redesigning a dungeon to screw the players over, as a Freddy Krueger DM would, this DM simply decrees that the players have been screwed. This DM archetype overlaps with Conductors, who may railroad specifically to demonstrate their control over the players; and with DMPCs, who use the eponymous creation as a mechanism for self-gratification.

Yeah, I actually had a DM that was like that for 1 very frustrating encounter.

Here's the rundown:

Okay, so I'm a cleric, and my party consists of me and a wizard. Rather weird, I know. I was the melee guy, the meatshield if you will. Anyway, we got to so weirdo's house who wanted us to prove our dedication to a certain quest. So, he summoned 2 henchmen, armed with tridents to fight us. We fought in some weird arena that the weirdo invoked, it was going okay, at the start, until the henchmen started picking each other up and throwing each other at the wizard, over my relatively tall character's head, without provoking AOOs. I actually had to remind him to factor this in, and he said I got the AOO after the henchman had picked up the other henchman and already thrown him. So far, this was bearable. Then, the wizard create some illegal combo, using mage hand to throw a rock at a henchmen and knock him out, which would be followed by being swooped upon by his familiar (a hawk), which he followed up with a stab to the face. All of which happened in 1-2 turns, I think. This was totally illegal, and the DM did nothing. As the henchman was now, out of combat, and the wizard had somehow proved his dedication he was taken out of the arena.

It was me and the remaining henchman now. I was clobbering him. For some reason, the DM decided the henchman would fall prone. So, I gave the henchman a warning, "If you don't yield I'll kill you", or something along the lines of that. While I was talking, the henchmen got up, bull-rushed and pinned me to a tree, with NO AOOs or opposed checks. I demanded a few opposed checks, and the DM gave in. After all, I knew the rules better than he did. He then said I failed said checks, but didn't show the opponents rolls, what a surprise! So, I'm now pinned against a tree, due to some weird god-modding and very frustrated at the current situation of things. (I probably would have punched him if I wasn't playing over skype.) The henchman demanded my surrender. I had a think about this, my character was Neutral Good, I decided that I was willing to lie to get out of this for the greater good, and then knock him out with my mace. So, I rolled my bluff check, I got a natural 20 (which is usually considered an instant success in my gaming circle, if it's within your ability). Then that weirdo issuing us the challenge, some how read my thoughts, and said something like, "Foul Play won't do you any good". Having realised that my bluff was called, I managed to escape the grapple and finish off the henchman.

So, with the encounter over, I was taken out of the arena and got told off by the weirdo issuing us the challenge that I hadn't really proven my dedication. I managed to convince him, by saying the right words, that I had. Strangely, though my wizard buddy had proven his dedication. And all this seemed to be just a test whether one kills without qualms in the name of this quest.

Now in hindsight, maybe I was being a little silly getting frustrated and so forth, but I believe that the DM was substantially worse, than I realised. The weirdo issuing the challenge, read my thoughts, to discern that I was lying. Why couldn't he then read my thoughts to discern that I was dedicated to this quest?

All I hope, I that when I DM, I'm not going to be like this...

Math_Mage
2010-05-09, 02:28 AM
It seems as if this list contains every behavior besides making the game too easy and giving the players too much loot; having a strict plot, having no plot, giving the players too much freedom, railroading, only allowing one solution, getting flustered when the players try to use out of the box solutions, not giving enough loot, being too hard, being too predictable, being too freeform... all of those things are listed to a greater or lesser extent. It seems as if any DM who isn't one of the things listed is going to be another, unless they are a DM who makes an extremely easy game giving out a ton of loot filled with houserules and with just the right balance of allowing players the freedom to think outside the box while being able to deal with their outlandish suggestions and retaining a plot and never even gently hinting at the players to the right thing to do for the plot.

I should note that both 'making the game too easy' and 'giving the players too much loot' have been covered by responses, specifically Roupe's Training Wheels DM. :smallamused:

A 'problem DM' is not merely a DM that has engaged in such-and-such behavior. No DM is going to be prepared for everything. No DM is going to avoid railroading all the time. No DM is going to give exactly the right amount of loot every time. The two basic problem DMs are the ones who repeatedly make the same errors without learning from them, and the ones who treat the game as something other than an interaction between DM and players for fun and profit (and therefore deliberately make the same 'mistakes' over and over again, if they get the chance).

In fact, I'd like to propose those as superarchetypes for problem DMs:

Insane DM
They say insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results. The insane DM is not a person in need of a straitjacket (always); rather, he is the person who elicits groans when he volunteers to DM, because everyone knows his campaign is going to have the same problems it did last time around. Whether it's too much rigidity in the plot, too many under-CR'd monsters in an encounter, or not enough treasure at the end of it all, this DM is set on playing his campaign a particular way because that's what he thinks will produce the most fun for everyone, despite evidence to the contrary. RAW DMs, Unprepared DMs, Backseat Drivers, Clouds, Training Wheels, and especially Predictable DMs fall under this banner. Conductors and Scrooges are sometimes this kind of DM.

Antagonistic DM
This is the DM who has forgotten that the purpose of D&D is for several people to enjoy creating a story together. He may be a perfectly nice guy in ordinary life, but at the table he's out to maximize his personal pleasure through power, sex, or schadenfreude, at the expense of his group. This DM will often take personal umbrage at in-character events, particularly unexpected success or creativity by the PCs, and is fond of enacting disproportionate revenge for these occurrences. Double standards will often apply, with the players laboring under extraordinary restrictions, and NPCs/DMPCs acting according to the DM's fancy, generally without regard for rules or IC logic. This DM has effectively already left the playgroup, and is only sticking around to torment everyone else. Freddy Kruegers and Megalomaniacs fall into this category, as do some Conductors and Scrooges.

I submit that though there may be many kinds of DM mistakes, problem DMs nearly always fit into one of these two umbrella categories. Thoughts?

Oh, and one more basic problem archetype:
Threadbare DM
This is the DM who just doesn't care enough to make the campaign interesting. He has difficulty engaging the players, because he's not engaged enough himself to provide anything for the players to latch on to. RPing is thin, people are bored, and even the dice have an apathetic ring to them, as if they realize that whatever number shows up doesn't really matter. Unlike other Antagonistic DMs, he doesn't necessarily anger the other players, but he certainly has already left the group. Nobody walks out on this kind of DM, but nobody shows up for the next session, either.

2xMachina
2010-05-09, 04:46 AM
I think you can mix Freddy Kruger and Railroad slightly, and make it come out good.

Have plot points, but not fixed. For example, you can accidentally kill the big bad before he even becomes the big bad. Fine, someone else is the big bad.

The plot is advanced regardless of your choice, and you wouldn't really know it's a railroad.

Math_Mage
2010-05-09, 04:57 AM
I think you can mix Freddy Kruger and Railroad slightly, and make it come out good.

Have plot points, but not fixed. For example, you can accidentally kill the big bad before he even becomes the big bad. Fine, someone else is the big bad.

The plot is advanced regardless of your choice, and you wouldn't really know it's a railroad.

Textbook Schrodinger's Gun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleocg6iflv079q). Just don't overuse it.

Tengu_temp
2010-05-09, 07:45 AM
Realism-Obsessed DM
This DM's games always come with several pages worth of houserules that supposedly make the game more realistic, none of which make it more interesting or fun for the players, and most of which work against them or make the game only more complicated. The fact that a world where giant lizards fly and breathe fire isn't exactly the most realistic place never seems to have crossed his mind. Bonus points if his houserules add elements he only thinks are realistic, but aren't really.

Oslecamo
2010-05-09, 07:59 AM
Realism-Obsessed DM
This DM's games always come with several pages worth of houserules that supposedly make the game more realistic, none of which make it more interesting or fun for the players, and most of which work against them or make the game only more complicated. The fact that a world where giant lizards fly and breathe fire isn't exactly the most realistic place never seems to have crossed his mind. Bonus points if his houserules add elements he only thinks are realistic, but aren't really.

Well, to be fair, that isn't exactly a guaranteed disaster. I've seen a lot of games where the DM puts indeed several "realism" rules and the players end up finding ways to use them for their own advantage. Depends on the players really. Where one party may see extra boring paper work others will see a new optimization challenge, or may actualy enjoy the extra challenge just due to a sadistic nature.

This is, how many people use custom fumble charts that hurt noncasters even more? Or the infamous double 20 insta-kills you when you're facing hordes of mooks? There's people out there wich actualy enjoy it!

Catgirl genocide is still guaranteed tough.

Reynard
2010-05-09, 08:18 AM
I think you can mix Freddy Kruger and Railroad slightly, and make it come out good.

Have plot points, but not fixed. For example, you can accidentally kill the big bad before he even becomes the big bad. Fine, someone else is the big bad.

The plot is advanced regardless of your choice, and you wouldn't really know it's a railroad.

It might be just me, but rather than ignore such a good plot point and carry on regardless, I would change the plot here. I'd let the players find something on his body that could lead them to whatever it was that would have made him the big bad, whether he was going to make a pact with some devils, train in necromancy, be recruited by some dark agency, find some super evil artifact, etc.

But because they managed to get to it before the big bad did, they don't know any of the dangers involved, since there's be no reason for them to find out, for example, the artifacts weaknesses/side-effects, since they aren't looking to defeat the wielder.

Hilarity ensues.

Mongoose87
2010-05-09, 08:41 AM
Another Superarchetype

Your Best Friend

So, your Wizard failed his reflex save, and now he's stuck to floor, in a tanglefoot bag. It sucks, but life goes on (hopefully). But, wait! The DMNPC Cleric casts a spell you can't identify and the bag i gone ,your wizard is free!

What?

The "Your Best Friend" DM is on your side. Whether you're trying to use that bizarre RAW interpretation essentially for your triple 9s build, or being protected from your own stupidity by Plot Armor of Invincibility, the "Your Best Friend" DM is always making sure that the PCs' status as successful heroes is out of jeopardy. Failure is, literally, not an option.

Choco
2010-05-09, 09:18 AM
Textbook Schrodinger's Gun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitleocg6iflv079q). Just don't overuse it.

Yeah, you can use it a lot, just make sure you do not make it look like a Xanatos Gambit has gone down by the time you done, that is guaranteed to frustrate the players.

Anyway, here is one I am constantly guilty of.

The Experimental Science DM
This type of DM realizes that given 4 options the PC's will always choose the 5th, so he does not even bother thinking of possible solutions to the encounters he creates. Instead, he creates frustratingly challenging encounters with no obvious advantages for the PCs to exploit, throws the players into the middle, and just observes what happens. The more the PC's win, the more challenging he makes the upcoming encounters simply because he is curious if/how the PC's can overcome them. Prone to doing things like placing a canyon in the lvl 1 party's path, with about 25 longbow archers on the other side watching the only 5-foot wide rope bridge for miles in either direction, and a horde of mounted knights hot on their tail, just to see what the players come up with to overcome the challenge. Not necessarily always bad, but can be if taken too far.

And some I have seen.

The Socially Inept DM
This is a supercategory covering all types of DM problems caused by poor social skills. The DM that gets frustrated to flat-out angry if the players cannot solve his "easy" puzzle or miss his "obvious" plot hooks and are just moping around getting bored. The DM that knows full well how gritty and dark his players can tolerate and pushes the limits anyway, telling them that they will get used to it. The DM that does not seem to understand that his idea of fun is not necessarily shared by everyone else in existence. The low self-esteem DM that is no more than a doormat to certain players. The power-tripping DM that uses the DM chair to be large and in charge. And so on.

Gamerlord
2010-05-09, 09:27 AM
The doesn't have the slightest clue what she is doing but wants to DM because its "Her turn to DM"
These are players who want to have the power of DMing but have become so used to being players they make ridiculously poor DMs, but stubbornly refuse to give up the chair.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-09, 09:39 AM
The given definition of the "Training Wheels' DM seems very odd. How often do you see a Monty Haul game (the colliquial term for Training Wheels) in what's claimed to be low-wealth?

onthetown
2010-05-09, 09:57 AM
"It's Just a PC..."

This isn't a disaster for the players -- it's a disaster for the DM. The DM has spent little time paying attention to just how easily the PCs are cutting and blasting through the encounters, and consistently gives them easy fights with major XP gain because, "They should have been too hard for you, so you did really well!" When it comes time to face the perfectly set-up Big Bad, what was supposed to be almost an hour of fighting turns into only a few rounds of destruction and the PCs prevail again.

The DM will occasionally throw a curveball at the PCs when the DM starts paying attention, but it's only one monster out of many that was able to give them half a challenge. Hours of gameplay are turned into minutes because the DM completely underestimates the PCs.

This could be a bit of a disaster for the players if they get bored enough.

Kylarra
2010-05-09, 10:08 AM
Maybe we should throw out an alternate thread for players. :smalltongue:

Gamerlord
2010-05-09, 10:29 AM
Already done by the looks of it :smalltongue: .

Bully
DMs who think they can push around your characters, in my experience, quite capable of being shut up by a show of how un-scared you are of them. Some like The Charge of the Last Brigade tends to do it.

Frog Dragon
2010-05-09, 10:29 AM
Maybe we should throw out an alternate thread for players. :smalltongue:
Done and Done :smalltongue:
Edit: Swordsage'd

Reynard
2010-05-09, 11:43 AM
The Reluctant and Spiteful DM.

This is a the DM that doesn't want to DM for whatever reason, so deliberately does an absolutely terrible job of it. Alternates between twisting the rules against the players and for the monsters, giving wildly inappropriate loot and encounters (in both directions, so mundane daggers after fighting a CR15 encounter. Or a party of lv1 human bandits carry around an ancient and powerful artifact, that no one in the party can use due to racial restrictions.), often fudges attack and damage rolls, inflates Spell/Damage Resistance, as well as save DCs, amount of damage dice, monsters spell lists, amount of spells that monster can cast/day.

Basically, does everything possible to convince the player's they shouldn't DM ever, ever, again. Often will also convince them that they just shouldn't be allowed to play full stop.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 12:20 PM
Bully
DMs who think they can push around your characters, in my experience, quite capable of being shut up by a show of how un-scared you are of them. Some like The Charge of the Last Brigade tends to do it. Wut wut, do you refer to Charge of the Light Brigade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade) or am I hopelessly out of loop?

Samurai Jill
2010-05-09, 01:00 PM
Realism-Obsessed DM
This DM's games always come with several pages worth of houserules that supposedly make the game more realistic, none of which make it more interesting or fun for the players, and most of which work against them or make the game only more complicated. The fact that a world where giant lizards fly and breathe fire isn't exactly the most realistic place never seems to have crossed his mind. Bonus points if his houserules add elements he only thinks are realistic, but aren't really.
The realism-obsessed DM can work out fine if s/he's actually using core rules that were realistic to begin with, among players that also care about realism. There's a significant minority of people for whom 'things making sense' is both interesting and fun. The inclusion of Dragons doesn't alter this- non-magical elements are (presumably) still subject to the mundane laws of physics and biology that you'd expect in a real world. If they aren't, then, well, those Dragons don't look particularly special by comparison, do they?

waterpenguin43
2010-05-09, 01:08 PM
It's getting sort of hard to paste everything onto the first page, so I think this should just be a compedium thread.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-09, 01:10 PM
On the other hand, a lot of DMs obsessed with 'realism' rarely end up with anything approaching it. The sort of people I think that's trying to cover are the ones who mandate critical fumble rules, with all sorts of 'amusing' side effects of fumbling that typically involve full-attacking your wizard ally from 30ft. away.

Math_Mage
2010-05-09, 01:16 PM
It's getting sort of hard to paste everything onto the first page, so I think this should just be a compedium thread.

It doesn't help that there are a lot of redundant entries, as well as a few that aren't really problems.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 01:16 PM
On the other hand, a lot of DMs obsessed with 'realism' rarely end up with anything approaching it. The sort of people I think that's trying to cover are the ones who mandate critical fumble rules, with all sorts of 'amusing' side effects of fumbling that typically involve full-attacking your wizard ally from 30ft. away.I recall a friend's character cutting his own swordarm off. Wasn't D&D though.

BRC
2010-05-09, 01:18 PM
It doesn't help that there are a lot of redundant entries, as well as a few that aren't really problems.
Well there are very few DMing types that are always problems. Most DMing styles just require a certain group to work, combined with enough skill. For example, a DM who is very good at storytelling, running a game for a group that doesn't mind riding the railroad tracks and seeing the sights, can be a "Conductor" and everybody will still have fun.

Boci
2010-05-09, 01:22 PM
The realism-obsessed DM can work out fine if s/he's actually using core rules that were realistic to begin with, among players that also care about realism. There's a significant minority of people for whom 'things making sense' is both interesting and fun. The inclusion of Dragons doesn't alter this- non-magical elements are (presumably) still subject to the mundane laws of physics and biology that you'd expect in a real world. If they aren't, then, well, those Dragons don't look particularly special by comparison, do they?

Problem is, its a game, there are so many things unrealistic.

Why doesn't HP damage weaken your ability to fight?
\Why do hardly any wounds seem to bleed?
Why does a dagger has the same reach as a greatsword?
Ect.

Its impossible to fix all the bugs, and thus as a player I get suspicious when the DM does so selectivly.

Samurai Jill
2010-05-09, 01:34 PM
Problem is, its a game, there are so many things unrealistic.

Why doesn't HP damage weaken your ability to fight?
\Why do hardly any wounds seem to bleed?
Why does a dagger has the same reach as a greatsword?
Ect.

Its impossible to fix all the bugs, and thus as a player I get suspicious when the DM does so selectivly.
It's not impossible, it just requires a very, very different set of rules (http://www.burningempires.com/catalog/) from what you get in D&D. You're absolutely right that trying to fix these 'inaccuracies' piecemeal while taking the D&D ruleset as a starting point would be inordinately slow and painful, but that's because D&D isn't about making sense: it's primarily about beating the crap out of monsters.

Boci
2010-05-09, 01:39 PM
It's not impossible, it just requires a very, very different set of rules (http://www.burningempires.com/catalog/) from what you get in D&D. You're absolutely right that trying to fix these 'inaccuracies' piecemeal while taking the D&D ruleset as a starting point would be inordinately slow and painful, but that's because D&D isn't about making sense: it's primarily about beating the crap out of monsters.

I was talking about D&D, since its the only RPG I know well. I'm sure there are other games that are more realistic ones (GURPS springs to mind), but if you want realism in D&D, you might be playing the wrong game.

Gamerlord
2010-05-09, 01:40 PM
Wut wut, do you refer to Charge of the Light Brigade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade) or am I hopelessly out of loop?

Yes, that is what I refer to. My bad.

Samurai Jill
2010-05-09, 01:42 PM
I was talking about D&D, since its the only RPG I know well. I'm sure there are other games that are more realistic ones (GURPS springs to mind), but if you want realism in D&D, you might be playing the wrong game.
I don't disagree, I'm just pointing out that the GM in question might actually be an excellent GM for the right group with the right rule-set. Unless we're confining the discussion to D&D sessions...?

Boci
2010-05-09, 01:48 PM
I don't disagree, I'm just pointing out that the GM in question might actually be an excellent GM for the right group with the right rule-set. Unless we're confining the discussion to D&D sessions...?

Not really, although most of us will probably have the most expirience with D&D. In your post:


The realism-obsessed DM can work out fine if s/he's actually using core rules that were realistic to begin with, among players that also care about realism. There's a significant minority of people for whom 'things making sense' is both interesting and fun. The inclusion of Dragons doesn't alter this- non-magical elements are (presumably) still subject to the mundane laws of physics and biology that you'd expect in a real world. If they aren't, then, well, those Dragons don't look particularly special by comparison, do they?

You said DM, core and dragon, so I just mistakenly assumed you meant D&D.

Samurai Jill
2010-05-09, 01:51 PM
I can see how that would give the wrong impression. :) My bad.

Roupe
2010-05-09, 02:05 PM
The given definition of the "Training Wheels' DM seems very odd. How often do you see a Monty Haul game (the colliquial term for Training Wheels) in what's claimed to be low-wealth?

I said easily spotted, I didnt say "often seen". The training wheel DM can claim its a low wealth campaign -but due to his behavior the players doesnt experience it -making it easier for them to identify this over generous DM.

The "Monty Haul" /training wheel DM is simmilar to "your best friend DM" & is a fairly common bad DM type. Its not restricted to DMs either, game developers can fall to this too.

Example. In Tolkien's books, magic is a rare, whereas in MERP (middle earth role playing) magic was abundant.

I still hear people describing Merp as a low wealth/magic campaign -when it isnt. One litterally trips over the abundant magic items in its adventure modules.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-09, 03:35 PM
Got it...you're pointing out that Monty Haul DMs are more obvious in games that are nominally low-wealth, not that they're more common. Misread your description then.

I think Monty Haul/Training Wheels DM does deserve its own category for specificity - they overload the players with loot without compensating in monster difficulty, then the resulting cakewalk fights often cause them to metamorpose into one of the other types, such as the Conductor.

Mongoose87
2010-05-10, 06:34 AM
Dr. No
You want something from what supplement? No! Dr. No has never read your book and he doesn't want to. He doesn't care if it's not particularly strong, and you'll let him borrow the rules to review them. He's got no interest in you spoiling his campaign with your splat.

Greenish
2010-05-10, 07:52 AM
Example. In Tolkien's books, magic is a rare, whereas in MERP (middle earth role playing) magic was abundant.

I still hear people describing Merp as a low wealth/magic campaign -when it isnt. One litterally trips over the abundant magic items in its adventure modules.In Tolkien's setting, magic is rare, but in the books the protagonists are tripping over magic items quite often. I mean, in Lord of the Rings, the hobbits had hardly gotten out of Shire before they were all outfitted with magic weapons (except Frodo who started with one).

Talon Sky
2010-05-10, 12:51 PM
Dr. No
You want something from what supplement? No! Dr. No has never read your book and he doesn't want to. He doesn't care if it's not particularly strong, and you'll let him borrow the rules to review them. He's got no interest in you spoiling his campaign with your splat.

Heh, I can kind of be this kind of DM, especially recently. I'll look over the stats for things if you really, really want it....but if it doesn't exist in my world, it doesn't exist. I had a girl in my most recent session wanting to be a half-drow centaur. I told her, flat out, no. That's just....

....come on. Be a Drow, for God's sake, they're everywhere in my campaign. Centaurs may not even exist in my world, but she didn't care. She said it was the result of a genetic experiment or something >.<

That being said, I am kind of a Training Wheels DM, but I tend to become a Scrooge. Basically, I am liberal with loot in the early levels because lower-magical weapons and such are abundant, but anything around +3 starts to become very rare indeed. Most of my players have added magical bonuses to equipment they've had for a few levels now. Every session or so they'll come around something really nice, but by this level I'm using the appropriate treasure charts.

Gnaeus
2010-05-10, 01:04 PM
The Mother of Monsters

Every monster this DM puts out has a personal connection to the DM. Whether it is an orc or a dragon, when you kill it, you are causing this DM deep emotional distress. If you should dare to cheer, mock your imaginary enemies, or otherwise be anything but a gracious winner, you are laughing at his pain. You should have the decency to take your cruel, violent hobo out of his previously idyllic Dragon Tales world.

or the Armchair Ethicist

Paladin/good cleric in the party? Get ready to face the Humanoid nursery full of children and noncombatants. This DM WANTS you to fall from your class/alignment, or at least to spend 90 minutes of game time figuring out why your latest action violated your alignment. Mr. Druid? That last monster you killed was a member of an endangered species, with a valuable role to play in the ecosystem. Monks with Vow of Poverty are WAY too strong. He'll just deal with that by having an invisible urchin sneak into camp and slip a ring of feather fall into your pouch. If you let him go he will come back later and do it again. If you kill/punish him, that is a chaotic or evil act, violating your class alignment, your vow, or both. Isn't that an INTERESTING way to examine your characters morality? No?

awa
2010-05-10, 05:41 PM
you can easily modify dungeons and dragons to make it more realistic with out crippling the game its just a matter of how you do it. The fact that something else is still unrealistic or that their are dragons in the campaign setting doesn't invalidate that.

holywhippet
2010-05-10, 10:08 PM
One of my former DMs kind of fell into a number of these areas. The main problem was that he had no problem with throwing challenges at the party that they simply were not really prepared through. Like the werewolf he tossed at the mostly level 2 party. The flipside was that he'd "interpret" rules in a way that made sense to him. Like when the druid cast entangle on the werewolf - this was a 2E game so the spell should have slowed it down at least. The DM decided that the grass/weeds weren't really all that tall and that the werewolf was pretty strong so it basically ignored the spell entirely.

Arbane
2010-05-10, 10:34 PM
Borrowed from RPGnet: The Pixelbitcher


An annoying sub-type of The Conductor, the Pixelbitcher creates situations that have a grand total of ONE correct, usually obscure, solution. Any attempt at lateral thinking, improvisation, or any problem-solving method other than reading the DM's mind and plucking out the One True Solution will be met with stone walls and abject failure.

Possibly worse than a regular Conductor, who will at least try to force you back on the One True Path, as the Pixelbitcher is perfectly content to let the characters sit around and desperately brainstorm for hours on end.


(Named after an adventure game where solving one puzzle required the player to click on a 2x2 patch of pixels that wasn't marked in any obvious way.)

Flickerdart
2010-05-10, 10:40 PM
Dunno about 2e, but in 3.5 Werewolf is a CR3 monster, well within the capabilities of a 2nd level party. The DR is a pain but he's only got 20HP.

holywhippet
2010-05-12, 12:30 AM
Dunno about 2e, but in 3.5 Werewolf is a CR3 monster, well within the capabilities of a 2nd level party. The DR is a pain but he's only got 20HP.

I don't have the 2nd edition monster manual to check - but basically it killed the party druid in about 2 hits and ignored all of our regular weapon attacks (I think 2nd edition werewolves fast regenerate or something). It only got driven off because I tipped a flask of oil on it and had another character ignite it. Note that I said driven off, not killed.

onthetown
2010-05-12, 09:49 AM
or the Armchair Ethicist

Paladin/good cleric in the party? Get ready to face the Humanoid nursery full of children and noncombatants. This DM WANTS you to fall from your class/alignment, or at least to spend 90 minutes of game time figuring out why your latest action violated your alignment. Mr. Druid? That last monster you killed was a member of an endangered species, with a valuable role to play in the ecosystem. Monks with Vow of Poverty are WAY too strong. He'll just deal with that by having an invisible urchin sneak into camp and slip a ring of feather fall into your pouch. If you let him go he will come back later and do it again. If you kill/punish him, that is a chaotic or evil act, violating your class alignment, your vow, or both. Isn't that an INTERESTING way to examine your characters morality? No?

I just posted a thread about my DM pulling this, too. I suddenly don't feel as bad anymore, knowing that he now fits into a nice little category for that session. :smalltongue: