boomwolf
2010-05-08, 10:24 AM
This design note is based around a class I am WiP at the moment-the Arcane Blade, a base class that I intend to make to make up of the lack of proper "gish" base class.
While true there are many such base classes at WoTC material, they appear to be either:
1-very weak.
2-very antisynergic.
3-worthy of a dip only.
4-has not enough casting power to rely on it.
5-feature weak list of spells. or has too little spells known.
6-a combinatins of the above. (the usual case)
So, I will go over the few important points of a decent gish, and compare their performance in the 2 primary WoTC "gish" classes-Bard and Duskblade. at the end of each comparison I will write down the Arcane Blade's intended ability.
The final intention is for you to review my line of thought and give me ideas or point out things that you believe are lacking/wrong before I go full-fledged into this class.
The points I will go over are:
1-Main combat ability (hit die and BAB, and saves too)
2-Armor limitations
3-Inner synergy
4-"Magic support", or "the ability to make low-power tactical cantips".
5-Spell slot progression, and casting type.
6-Spell list and spells known.
7-Skill support.
8-Self supplicant capability
Main Combat Ability:
Bard: With a pathetic d6 hit die, and just a 3/4 BAB, it is obvious the bard cannot properly function in the front lines. he belongs at the back, providing support magic and bardic music. while intended as a gish, he lacks all melee ability. at least he has good reflex and will, making him able to fight AoE spells and mind-affecting spells alike.
Duskblade: Featuring d8 hit die, and a full BAB progression, this looks more like a combatant. while not the most meaty of the bunch, he is compareable to monks and clerics in taking a hit, and he knows how to attack. having fortitude and will both good saves make him vulnerable only to AoE attack spells, and gives him an edge against both mental attack, and negative energy type attack-the most dangerous spells.
Arcane Blade: Will follow mostly the Duskblade's with d8 hit die and full BaB, however his saves will be bard like, and I intend to make a more "lightweight" class, and not a "armor suit with spells".
Armor Limitations
Bard: light armor only.
Duskblade: rapid progression in the early levels that is halted rather quickly.
Arcane Blade: as I AM intending for a "light and mobile" type, he will follow the bard's light armor casting.
Inner Synergy
Bard: that's where the bard truly come crashing down to earth and a bird with no wings. lots of options between attack, cast and songs-but can only do one at a time. zero synergy what-so-ever.
Duskblade: less options then a bard, but Arcane Channeling allows him to actually use both a spell and an attack at once, and Quick Cast, although limited by daily uses, allows him to pretty much to cast anything with attacking. and Spell Power gives you more benefits to casting from swordplay. perfect.
Arcane Blade: First and foremost I intend to give him his own version of Arcane Channeling, with spread out progression yet less power. (each attack uses it own spell) and Spell Power is likely to find it's way as well, again with more spread-out and logically leveled progression. (gets an early +1)
Also, I am considering another "swift spell" mechanic, based on cooldown rather then daily uses. (i always favored cooldowns, as it reduces the "10 minute workday" phenomena.)
Magic Support
Bard: while he carries low numbers of low-level spells, he has bardic music abilities that allows him to give lots of buffs all around. not quite "magic support" but it works.
Duskblade: between Arcane Attunement and a fair share of 0 level and 1 level spells, he got nigh-infinite magic support. even more then most true casters.
Arcane Blade: aiming for the balance here, he got the Detect Magic at will, plus the warlock's Deceive Item ad Imbue Item abilities. as well as a fair share of low level spells.
Spell slot progression, and casting type
Bard: while he bard gains new spells levels at a fine timing (aside of level 1 spells that are only gained at level 2 for some reason.), he gets very little spells of each level. even at the full power of a given spell level he has only 4 spells a day. you cannot rely on that.
A bard is a spon caster. great of any gish, as you cannot know ahead what you gonna need in melee. his casting attribute is charisma
Duskblade: the opposite of the bard here, lots of daily spells per level but he gains said levels remarkably slow. and he only grows to level 5 spells. (at level 17. a level after the bard gains level 6 spells.)
Also a spon caster. it appears to be the gish standard. casts based on intelligence
Arcane Blade: I'm going to combine the best of both worlds. using the bard's list as a base for gaining new spell levels (with level 1 spells at level 1 added), but with duskblade's speed of getting spell slot of these levels.
This lead to level 20 with 7 level 6 spells, 8 level 5 spells, 9 level 4 spells and 10 of levels 0,1,2 and 3 spells. for a total of 64 daily spells. (compared to bard's 28 and duskblade's 50)
Spon caster like any other gish. will be wisdom based tough.
Spell list and spells known
Bard: most of your list is buffs, illusions and enchantments, and you have nearly zero attack spells. some spells ARE actually useful in combat, but not many. you big selection only shows how pathetic it is your low number of spells known. (that is, remarkably, more then your near-nothing daily spells) the point you shine is that you got cure spells, a must for any gish.
Duskblade: pretty much all your spells are attacks, buffs, or influencing the course of combat. the good new are, many are swift spells, giving you more "spell and sword" capability then normal. other then healing, you got pretty much everything a gish can want in terms of spells to choose from.
Learning 2 spells every levels also means you got a pretty big selection of spells known.
Arcane Blade: learning alot of the duskblade here, but I intend to make his list a bit more "pure" then the duskblade. giving him healing, and negetive energy. removing elemental spells to give more non-aligned, force or positive/negative spells. the swift spells are also great. its just what a gish needs, and the Arcane Blade gets them. even some that the duskblade does not.
I am however, aiming for "knows all spells" type. less options, but no need of choosing, note sure on this one yet.
Skill support
Bard: featuring a 6+int skill point and a list containing detection, stealth, maneuverability, talking skills and magic-foo. you can do anything with skills and that great.
Duskblade: only 2+int (although you are int based, so it's ok.), but you list only grants "heavy" maneuverability and magic-foo. not much to relay on, even tough its useful. do UDM is a bit of a downer.
Arcane Blade: pretty much coping the bard here. removing a few skills that don't fit (such as preform, diplomacy and SoH) and adding some combat-originated skills. (such as intimidate and my taunt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7613406&postcount=15) skill)
Self supplicant capability
Bard: the one point that saves him. yes, the bard can get fine on his own. no, he wont be good at any challenge, but he won't be bad at any either. he will always feature an average chance. he is versatile enough to at least take a shot in any challenge, although he might find solo combat a bit too much for him.
Duskblade: only combat skills. nothing out of it. if you can't go face-to-face with it, you can't do squat on your own. if you need stealth, detection, talk skills, maneuverability or anything other then killing stuff you are going to get into trouble. and even at killing stuff, if it fly you will have trouble.
Arcane Blade: the combination of abilities and magics I have selected for him earlier makes him pretty able at a lone adventure. capeable at moving around skillfull and quietly, detecting possible threats, and taking them down.
His warlock-like capabilities at magic item usage also allows him to get more versatile by the means of magic items to complement his own shortcomings.
And to make things more readable for a conculsion-the full
Arcane Blade
Main Combat Ability: Will follow mostly the Duskblade's with d8 hit die and full BaB, however his saves will be bard like, and I intend to make a more "lightweight" class, and not a "armor suit with spells".
Armor Limitation: as I AM intending for a "light and mobile" type, he will follow the bard's light armor casting.
Inner Synergy: First and foremost I intend to give him his own version of Arcane Channeling, with spread out progression yet less power. (each attack uses it own spell) and Spell Power is likely to find it's way as well, again with more spread-out and logically leveled progression. (gets an early +1)
Also, I am considering another "swift spell" mechanic, based on cooldown rather then daily uses. (i always favored cooldowns, as it reduces the "10 minute workday" phenomena.)
Magic Support: aiming for the balance here, he got the Detect Magic at will, plus the warlock's Deceive Item ad Imbue Item abilities. as well as a fair share of low level spells.
Spell slot progression and casting type: I'm going to combine the best of both worlds. using the bard's list as a base for gaining new spell levels (with level 1 spells at level 1 added), but with duskblade's speed of getting spell slot of these levels.
This lead to level 20 with 7 level 6 spells, 8 level 5 spells, 9 level 4 spells and 10 of levels 0,1,2 and 3 spells. for a total of 64 daily spells. (compared to bard's 28 and duskblade's 50)
Spon caster like any other gish. will be wisdom based though.
Spell list and spells known: learning alot of the duskblade here, but I intend to make his list a bit more "pure" then the duskblade. giving him healing, and negetive energy. removing elemental spells to give more non-aligned, force or positive/negative spells. the swift spells are also great. its just what a gish needs, and the Arcane Blade gets them. even some that the duskblade does not.
I am however, aiming for "knows all spells" type. less options, but no need of choosing, note sure on this one yet.
Skill support: pretty much coping the bard here. removing a few skills that don't fit (such as preform, diplomacy and SoH) and adding some combat-originated skills. (such as intimidate and my taunt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7613406&postcount=15) skill)
Self supplicant capeablity: the combination of abilities and magics I have selected for him earlier makes him pretty able at a lone adventure. capeable at moving around skillfull and quietly, detecting possible threats, and taking them down.
His warlock-like capabilities at magic item usage also allows him to get more versatile by the means of magic items to complement his own shortcomings.
While true there are many such base classes at WoTC material, they appear to be either:
1-very weak.
2-very antisynergic.
3-worthy of a dip only.
4-has not enough casting power to rely on it.
5-feature weak list of spells. or has too little spells known.
6-a combinatins of the above. (the usual case)
So, I will go over the few important points of a decent gish, and compare their performance in the 2 primary WoTC "gish" classes-Bard and Duskblade. at the end of each comparison I will write down the Arcane Blade's intended ability.
The final intention is for you to review my line of thought and give me ideas or point out things that you believe are lacking/wrong before I go full-fledged into this class.
The points I will go over are:
1-Main combat ability (hit die and BAB, and saves too)
2-Armor limitations
3-Inner synergy
4-"Magic support", or "the ability to make low-power tactical cantips".
5-Spell slot progression, and casting type.
6-Spell list and spells known.
7-Skill support.
8-Self supplicant capability
Main Combat Ability:
Bard: With a pathetic d6 hit die, and just a 3/4 BAB, it is obvious the bard cannot properly function in the front lines. he belongs at the back, providing support magic and bardic music. while intended as a gish, he lacks all melee ability. at least he has good reflex and will, making him able to fight AoE spells and mind-affecting spells alike.
Duskblade: Featuring d8 hit die, and a full BAB progression, this looks more like a combatant. while not the most meaty of the bunch, he is compareable to monks and clerics in taking a hit, and he knows how to attack. having fortitude and will both good saves make him vulnerable only to AoE attack spells, and gives him an edge against both mental attack, and negative energy type attack-the most dangerous spells.
Arcane Blade: Will follow mostly the Duskblade's with d8 hit die and full BaB, however his saves will be bard like, and I intend to make a more "lightweight" class, and not a "armor suit with spells".
Armor Limitations
Bard: light armor only.
Duskblade: rapid progression in the early levels that is halted rather quickly.
Arcane Blade: as I AM intending for a "light and mobile" type, he will follow the bard's light armor casting.
Inner Synergy
Bard: that's where the bard truly come crashing down to earth and a bird with no wings. lots of options between attack, cast and songs-but can only do one at a time. zero synergy what-so-ever.
Duskblade: less options then a bard, but Arcane Channeling allows him to actually use both a spell and an attack at once, and Quick Cast, although limited by daily uses, allows him to pretty much to cast anything with attacking. and Spell Power gives you more benefits to casting from swordplay. perfect.
Arcane Blade: First and foremost I intend to give him his own version of Arcane Channeling, with spread out progression yet less power. (each attack uses it own spell) and Spell Power is likely to find it's way as well, again with more spread-out and logically leveled progression. (gets an early +1)
Also, I am considering another "swift spell" mechanic, based on cooldown rather then daily uses. (i always favored cooldowns, as it reduces the "10 minute workday" phenomena.)
Magic Support
Bard: while he carries low numbers of low-level spells, he has bardic music abilities that allows him to give lots of buffs all around. not quite "magic support" but it works.
Duskblade: between Arcane Attunement and a fair share of 0 level and 1 level spells, he got nigh-infinite magic support. even more then most true casters.
Arcane Blade: aiming for the balance here, he got the Detect Magic at will, plus the warlock's Deceive Item ad Imbue Item abilities. as well as a fair share of low level spells.
Spell slot progression, and casting type
Bard: while he bard gains new spells levels at a fine timing (aside of level 1 spells that are only gained at level 2 for some reason.), he gets very little spells of each level. even at the full power of a given spell level he has only 4 spells a day. you cannot rely on that.
A bard is a spon caster. great of any gish, as you cannot know ahead what you gonna need in melee. his casting attribute is charisma
Duskblade: the opposite of the bard here, lots of daily spells per level but he gains said levels remarkably slow. and he only grows to level 5 spells. (at level 17. a level after the bard gains level 6 spells.)
Also a spon caster. it appears to be the gish standard. casts based on intelligence
Arcane Blade: I'm going to combine the best of both worlds. using the bard's list as a base for gaining new spell levels (with level 1 spells at level 1 added), but with duskblade's speed of getting spell slot of these levels.
This lead to level 20 with 7 level 6 spells, 8 level 5 spells, 9 level 4 spells and 10 of levels 0,1,2 and 3 spells. for a total of 64 daily spells. (compared to bard's 28 and duskblade's 50)
Spon caster like any other gish. will be wisdom based tough.
Spell list and spells known
Bard: most of your list is buffs, illusions and enchantments, and you have nearly zero attack spells. some spells ARE actually useful in combat, but not many. you big selection only shows how pathetic it is your low number of spells known. (that is, remarkably, more then your near-nothing daily spells) the point you shine is that you got cure spells, a must for any gish.
Duskblade: pretty much all your spells are attacks, buffs, or influencing the course of combat. the good new are, many are swift spells, giving you more "spell and sword" capability then normal. other then healing, you got pretty much everything a gish can want in terms of spells to choose from.
Learning 2 spells every levels also means you got a pretty big selection of spells known.
Arcane Blade: learning alot of the duskblade here, but I intend to make his list a bit more "pure" then the duskblade. giving him healing, and negetive energy. removing elemental spells to give more non-aligned, force or positive/negative spells. the swift spells are also great. its just what a gish needs, and the Arcane Blade gets them. even some that the duskblade does not.
I am however, aiming for "knows all spells" type. less options, but no need of choosing, note sure on this one yet.
Skill support
Bard: featuring a 6+int skill point and a list containing detection, stealth, maneuverability, talking skills and magic-foo. you can do anything with skills and that great.
Duskblade: only 2+int (although you are int based, so it's ok.), but you list only grants "heavy" maneuverability and magic-foo. not much to relay on, even tough its useful. do UDM is a bit of a downer.
Arcane Blade: pretty much coping the bard here. removing a few skills that don't fit (such as preform, diplomacy and SoH) and adding some combat-originated skills. (such as intimidate and my taunt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7613406&postcount=15) skill)
Self supplicant capability
Bard: the one point that saves him. yes, the bard can get fine on his own. no, he wont be good at any challenge, but he won't be bad at any either. he will always feature an average chance. he is versatile enough to at least take a shot in any challenge, although he might find solo combat a bit too much for him.
Duskblade: only combat skills. nothing out of it. if you can't go face-to-face with it, you can't do squat on your own. if you need stealth, detection, talk skills, maneuverability or anything other then killing stuff you are going to get into trouble. and even at killing stuff, if it fly you will have trouble.
Arcane Blade: the combination of abilities and magics I have selected for him earlier makes him pretty able at a lone adventure. capeable at moving around skillfull and quietly, detecting possible threats, and taking them down.
His warlock-like capabilities at magic item usage also allows him to get more versatile by the means of magic items to complement his own shortcomings.
And to make things more readable for a conculsion-the full
Arcane Blade
Main Combat Ability: Will follow mostly the Duskblade's with d8 hit die and full BaB, however his saves will be bard like, and I intend to make a more "lightweight" class, and not a "armor suit with spells".
Armor Limitation: as I AM intending for a "light and mobile" type, he will follow the bard's light armor casting.
Inner Synergy: First and foremost I intend to give him his own version of Arcane Channeling, with spread out progression yet less power. (each attack uses it own spell) and Spell Power is likely to find it's way as well, again with more spread-out and logically leveled progression. (gets an early +1)
Also, I am considering another "swift spell" mechanic, based on cooldown rather then daily uses. (i always favored cooldowns, as it reduces the "10 minute workday" phenomena.)
Magic Support: aiming for the balance here, he got the Detect Magic at will, plus the warlock's Deceive Item ad Imbue Item abilities. as well as a fair share of low level spells.
Spell slot progression and casting type: I'm going to combine the best of both worlds. using the bard's list as a base for gaining new spell levels (with level 1 spells at level 1 added), but with duskblade's speed of getting spell slot of these levels.
This lead to level 20 with 7 level 6 spells, 8 level 5 spells, 9 level 4 spells and 10 of levels 0,1,2 and 3 spells. for a total of 64 daily spells. (compared to bard's 28 and duskblade's 50)
Spon caster like any other gish. will be wisdom based though.
Spell list and spells known: learning alot of the duskblade here, but I intend to make his list a bit more "pure" then the duskblade. giving him healing, and negetive energy. removing elemental spells to give more non-aligned, force or positive/negative spells. the swift spells are also great. its just what a gish needs, and the Arcane Blade gets them. even some that the duskblade does not.
I am however, aiming for "knows all spells" type. less options, but no need of choosing, note sure on this one yet.
Skill support: pretty much coping the bard here. removing a few skills that don't fit (such as preform, diplomacy and SoH) and adding some combat-originated skills. (such as intimidate and my taunt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7613406&postcount=15) skill)
Self supplicant capeablity: the combination of abilities and magics I have selected for him earlier makes him pretty able at a lone adventure. capeable at moving around skillfull and quietly, detecting possible threats, and taking them down.
His warlock-like capabilities at magic item usage also allows him to get more versatile by the means of magic items to complement his own shortcomings.