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Marvel-dude
2010-05-08, 12:13 PM
Okay I have recently gotten ToB and since I'm not that good with english some of the things in ToB confused me.

1) stances and maneuvers. I understod it as if I can use (if I am a lvl 1 swordsage) 4 maneuvers per encounter? Is this right? Because some of the maneuvers look kinda powerful

2) unlike a wizard or similar, a swordsage only have to meditate for 5 minutes to get his maneuvers refilled, is that right?

I know that they are stupid questions.. but I have to learn it sooner or later right :D

senrath
2010-05-08, 12:17 PM
For #1, not quite. You have 4 readied, which you can then use. Then, you can recharge them at any point by performing a special action. I don't remember what the Swordsage's recovery method is, though. So if you have a really long combat for some reason, you can end up using more than 4 maneuvers.

Reynard
2010-05-08, 12:18 PM
They might seem powerful, but they've got nothing on spells.

Oh, and you're correct, but:


You can recover an expended maneuver by using a fullround action to quickly meditate. Doing this does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you complete your meditation, you can choose one expended maneuver to refresh. It is now available for use in a subsequent round.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-08, 12:21 PM
Most swordsages take the feat, Adaptive Style, at level 1. If you have Adapative Style, it takes 1 full round action to refresh all of your maneuvers. You can also change which maneuvers you have readied at that time. Since a full round action is 6 seconds, you can take 6 seconds in between fights to change your readied maneuvers.


Without Adaptive Style, it takes 1 full round action to refresh 1 maneuver or 5 minutes to change which maneuvers you have readied.

Marvel-dude
2010-05-08, 12:21 PM
So as a swordsage... I can use my 4 maneuvers.. and then use like 4 full round actions to have them "refilled" and then I can use them again?

Because if that is the cause, then ToB might just be my best book ever bought

Reynard
2010-05-08, 12:23 PM
Yes, or as Jello just said, pay a feat to recover all of them in a single round whenever you like.

Marvel-dude
2010-05-08, 12:30 PM
My god.... or gods depending on the setting

Thank you all for the help. It will help me a lot :smallbiggrin:

if it isn't too much to ask for: what would be the best stance for a unarmed swordsage/rogue? (my unarmed damage is a d3+str right?) Because I was thinking Shadow hand

Greenish
2010-05-08, 12:36 PM
My god.... or gods depending on the setting

Thank you all for the help. It will help me a lot :smallbiggrin:

if it isn't too much to ask for: what would be the best stance for a unarmed swordsage/rogue? (my unarmed damage is a d3+str right?) Because I was thinking Shadow handIf you're taking Shadow Blade feat, yeah, you probably want to stick in Shadow Hand stances most of the time. Assassin's Stance gives a couple of more d6s to your SA, Island of Blades allows you to flank from any square to get your rogue SAs off, Child of Shadow is pretty nice for defense.

Your unarmed damage is d3+strength for normal swordsage. If you use Unarmed Swordsage variant, it's higher, though I can't recall offhand whether they got the same progression as monks.

Reynard
2010-05-08, 12:40 PM
If you're using the unarmed variant, your damage will be the same as a monks. At level, one, it'll be 1d6+str. But you'll lose Light Armour Proficiency.

As for Maneuvers/Stances, look at the Setting Sun strikes (many are against touch AC), and the the Shadow Hand stance Island of Blades is awesome when you've got a sneak-attacker in the party. And Desert Wind boosts for shear flaming awesome.

Marvel-dude
2010-05-08, 12:53 PM
Where do I find this unarmed swordsage variant class? Also in ToB?

Pluto
2010-05-08, 12:55 PM
Where do I find this unarmed swordsage variant class? Also in ToB?
It's not really spelt out as a real variant, but it's added to the Adaptation section of the Swordsage entry (the very last bit before the sample character) as a suggestion.

demidracolich
2010-05-08, 12:57 PM
In the adaptation section near the end of the class.
Dammit, someone got there before me.

Marvel-dude
2010-05-08, 01:01 PM
Thank you all. You have been very helpful yet again

Private-Prinny
2010-05-08, 01:17 PM
Make sure you have a nice mix of Counters, mobility Boosts, and Strikes (both full-round and standard action). You always want to have an option open. Never skip on Diamond Mind, as it is a great discipline. Dex focused Unarmed Swordsages should use quite a few Setting sun Maneuvers.

One of my personal favorite maneuvers is Mountain Hammer. "Oh no, the wall closed behind us!" "No problem, just give me a second." *breaks wall*

Reynard
2010-05-08, 01:19 PM
Even more epic when done with a headbutt, since unarmed strikes can be any part of your body.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-08, 01:27 PM
Even more epic when done with a headbutt, since unarmed strikes can be any part of your body.

I hope it's not any part. But then again, using a coup de grace and teabagging your opponent at the same time would be awesome.

Keld Denar
2010-05-08, 01:35 PM
Picking ToB manevuersl, especially for a character above 1st level, is kinda an involved process. The best way to do it is to make a table. Something like this:

{table=head]ECL|CharLvl|IL|Gain|Lose|Stance
1|Swordsage1|1|X, Y, Z, Q||T
2|Swordsage2|2|N||L
3|Rogue1|2|||
4|Rogue2|3|||
5|Swordsage3|4|P||
6|Swordsage4|5|R|Y|
[/table]

this helps you figure out exactly what you can gain at every level, and what your IL is when you get it. Multiclassing ToB gets a bit complicated, as its offsets the natural progression of what manevuers you gain at what levels. Remember, all levels of non-ToB base classes and PrCs advance your IL on a 1:2 basis (rounded down), so factor this in while advancing.

Marvel-dude
2010-05-08, 01:41 PM
Well my character is going to be a gestalt character: Unarmed Swordsage/Rogue
And I had no intrest in multiclassing (unless it would make more sense for my character. He is going to be a spider-man ish character with loads of unarmed attacks and such)

And wasn't he idea with gestalts that you got the best from both classes at once and such?

Quick question: The stances you learn is Desert wind, Devoted spirit etc right?

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-08, 01:45 PM
I personally like the Warblade's method of recovery...

Player: "I attack using Mountain Hammer!"
DM: "Okay, that's your last maneuver readied, right? The other Golem moves up."
Player: "Yes, so I quickly flourish my weapon as a swift action!"
DM: "Why?" :smallconfused:
Player: "Because now all my maneuvers are ready again! New Round, I attack using Mountain Hammer!" :smallbiggrin:
Golems: "Eep!" :smalleek:

Marvel-dude
2010-05-08, 01:47 PM
I laughed at that one :D

Greenish
2010-05-08, 01:48 PM
I personally like the Warblade's method of recovery...

Player: "I attack using Mountain Hammer!"
DM: "Okay, that's your last maneuver readied, right? The other Golem moves up."
Player: "Yes, so I quickly flourish my weapon as a swift action!"
DM: "Why?" :smallconfused:
Player: "Because now all my maneuvers are ready again! New Round, I attack using Mountain Hammer!" :smallbiggrin:
Golems: "Eep!" :smalleek:It's Standard Action and Swift Action to recover Warblade maneuvers.

Keld Denar
2010-05-08, 01:52 PM
Quick question: The stances you learn is Desert wind, Devoted spirit etc right?

You can only learn stances from schools you have access too. Swordsages could learn Desert Wind stances, or Shadow Hand stances, but they couldn't learn stances from Devoted Spirit, which is Crusader only, or Iron Heart, which is Warblade only.

Rogue//Swordsage is a very strong build indead. There are a fair number of things that synergize well, such as Cloak of Deception (Greater Invis for 1 round as a swift action, while invisible all your attacks SHOULD be sneaks) or Saphire Nightmare Blade (if you succeed in a concentration check, you deal +1d6 damage AND your foe is considered Flatfooted, meaning you get to pile on sneak damage).

For this, you are mostly gonna want to look to Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind, and a little bit of Tiger Claw for mobility and flurry.

Escheton
2010-05-08, 01:52 PM
Desert, Diamond, Setting, Shadow, Stone and Tiger are swordsage disciplines.
From those he can pick and chose maneuvers and stances as he pleases if he meets the prereqs. Such as 2 other stone dragon maneuvers to get a higher lvl one. Keep in mind that stances count as maneuevers for this purpose.

A swordsage with devoted would kick way too much uhm...yeah

Marvel-dude
2010-05-08, 01:55 PM
Heh.. I know that I should say somthing like "Yeah that was my plan from the start" but I just read spider-man and thought hewas kinda rogue-ish.. And hen when I heard about the swordsage I just tried to put them together.
Yay for randomness of combining classes

true_shinken
2010-05-08, 01:56 PM
It's Standard Action and Swift Action to recover Warblade maneuvers.
Nope. It's attack that can be performed as a standard action + swift action. Basically, expend all maneuvers, full attack + swift to recover, expend all maneuvers...

Greenish
2010-05-08, 01:59 PM
Nope. It's attack that can be performed as a standard action + swift action. Basically, expend all maneuvers, full attack + swift to recover, expend all maneuvers...Well yeah, the point was that you can't use a certain maneuver on one round, then get it back as a swift action to use it again on the next round.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-08, 02:01 PM
It's Standard Action and Swift Action to recover Warblade maneuvers.

Uh...
"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon)"

Escheton
2010-05-08, 02:03 PM
Uh...
"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon)"

Also known as a trip, so...trip, aooo, maneuver1, trip, aoo, maneuver1 again etc.

Greenish
2010-05-08, 02:06 PM
Uh...
"You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon)"Yeah, so the sequence of events you posted is impossible. Also, the rest of it bears mentioning: "You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn."

[Edit]: Or then I just misread your post, sorry.
[2nd.Edit]: No, it still doesn't work. The golem would get a turn before you.

Keld Denar
2010-05-08, 02:06 PM
So, as a first level Rogue//Swordage, I'd suggest this:

Maneuvers:
Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw1)
Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw1)
Saphire Nightmare Blade (Diamond Mind1)
Shadow Blade Technique (Shadow Hand1)

Stance:
Island of Blades

For your feat, take TWF, and possibly Shadow Blade if you are human.

Island of Blades gives you the ability to flank (and thus SA) foes as long as you are next to them and another ally is also adjacent. You don't have to be behind them, which makes it MUCH easier to qualify at low levels. Wolf Fang Strike allows you to move and still attack with both weapons, in case you need to tumble to get into position. Sudden Leap is for taking short hops as a swift action, allowing you to reposition and still get a full attack with both weapons. Saphire Nightmare Blade is for getting SA against a foe that isn't adjacent to an ally, and does a bit of extra damage on its own. Same with Shadow Blade Tech.

For your 2nd level manevuer, a great one is Searing Blade (Desert Wind1), which adds extra damage when you are already in a flanking position, and at 3rd level take the awesome Cloak of Deception (Shadow Hand2).

Your 3rd level feat should probably be Craven, from Champions of Ruin, which adds your character level to damage when you sneak attack, but gives you a -2 on saves vs fear (which aren't THAT common).

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-05-08, 02:13 PM
I hope it's not any part. But then again, using a coup de grace and teabagging your opponent at the same time would be awesome.

"It's just the pelvic thrust, that really drives you (And your DM) insane..." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyssf9k0qdM)

Keld Denar: What about the Swordsage's Feat Tax, Adaptive Style?

Keld Denar
2010-05-08, 02:18 PM
Adaptive Style is decent, but if you are careful and creative, you can generally get through an encounter without having to refresh manevuers. If you have to spend a full round recovering maneuvers, there is a good chance that the encounter might already be over or almost over, and you should just keep attacking without using maenvuers, relying on your rogue side to bring the hurt.

If you really want it, I'd put it in in place of Shadow Blade, bump Shadow Blade to 3, and Craven to 6. Improved TWF should be 9th then.

Reynard
2010-05-08, 02:22 PM
Actually, it's probably possible to actually to the dance moves of Time Warp when attacking your opponent. You might get AoO'd, but who cares about that?

It's just a jump to the left Sudden Leap.
Then a step to the right 5" foot step.(If possible, if not, you'll just have to move 5" to your right and might eat an AoO.)
But it's the Pelvic Thrust, that really drives you insane. Now, this is clearly just an unarmed attack fluffed as a pelvic thrust. But is are there anyway to cause insanity when you hit someone? There probably is, but I can't think of it.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-08, 02:25 PM
Actually, it's probably possible to actually to the dance moves of Time Warp when attacking your opponent. You might get AoO'd, but who cares about that?

It's just a jump to the left Sudden Leap.
Then a step to the right 5" foot step.(If possible, if not, you'll just have to move 5" to your right and might eat an AoO.)
But it's the Pelvic Thrust, that really drives you insane. Now, this is clearly just an unarmed attack fluffed as a pelvic thrust. But is are there anyway to cause insanity when you hit someone? There probably is, but I can't think of it.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade maneuver might not cause insanity, but the name of the maneuver is appropriate! :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-05-08, 02:27 PM
Actually, it's probably possible to actually to the dance moves of Time Warp when attacking your opponent. You might get AoO'd, but who cares about that?

It's just a jump to the left Sudden Leap.
Then a step to the right 5" foot step.(If possible, if not, you'll just have to move 5" to your right and might eat an AoO.)
But it's the Pelvic Thrust, that really drives you insane. Now, this is clearly just an unarmed attack fluffed as a pelvic thrust. But is are there anyway to cause insanity when you hit someone? There probably is, but I can't think of it.Tumble to avoid AoOs, that's something Swordsages ought to be doing anyway with their awesome mobility.

As for insanity, Stunning Fist gives a stun, which is the best I can come up.

Reynard
2010-05-08, 02:31 PM
Stunning people with a pelvic thrust...

I feel a need to make and use this as much as possible.
While singing.

Marvel-dude
2010-05-08, 02:46 PM
questin about gestalts... can you also use two prestige classes at once?

Reynard
2010-05-08, 02:49 PM
Prestige Classes
The high-powered nature of the gestalt character variant gives you more room to create unique prestige classes. First, you can create narrowly specialized prestige classes, and they'll still be compelling choices for PCs because the characters can simultaneously advance in a regular class while taking levels in the prestige class. Players won't feel shoehorned into a very specific prestige class if they have another class they're also advancing in. Second, you can create truly outrageous prestige classes - but add the additional cost that such classes take up both class choices for gestalt characters. For example, a prestige class that offered a d12 Hit Die, +1/level base attack bonus, two good saves, full spellcasting, and a host of class features would be completely unbalanced in a standard game. But if it takes up both "class slots" for a gestalt characters, it's no more powerful than taking a level in the barbarian/wizard gestalt.

So it depends what your DM says.

Douglas
2010-05-08, 03:15 PM
But is are there anyway to cause insanity when you hit someone? There probably is, but I can't think of it.
Well, there's Mind Strike. 1d4 wisdom damage isn't quite insanity, but it's at least related.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-08, 03:17 PM
questin about gestalts... can you also use two prestige classes at once?

No. A gesalt character can only take 1 prestige class at a time. So you could take 1 prestige and 1 base OR 1 base and 1 base when you gain a level.

~

Also, be careful to read the full explanations of what each maneuver does. Some of the full explanations are different or have more features than the short explanations on the Maneuver And Stances Lists.

For example, the List says that Clinging Shadow Strike gives an enemy a 20% miss chance on attacks. But, if you read the full description of Clinging Shadow Strike, then you can see that it also does 1d6 extra damage when it hits.

~

If you are taking levels of rogue then definitely take Island of Blades and Distracting Ember. You will be able to do sneak attacks much more often.

Most of the Shadow hand maneuvers and stances are great and good choices. Most of the Stone Dragon maneuvers and stances are bad choices (except for Mountain Hammer, which is great).