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evil-frosty
2010-05-08, 08:31 PM
I was perusing my Hordes of the Abyss book and came upon this demon and upon reading there Form of Madness aura, does it end naturally because 4th level characters cant get there hands onto the spells that end it. And they get 7 attacks but i think thats more of me being surprised by that number, as that they each dont do a huge amount of damage. So are they under CR'ed why or why not?

Boci
2010-05-08, 08:48 PM
AC is on the low side and their HP is average (I think) but it has DR: 5 that is unlikely to be overcome. The aura's effects are relativly tame. Most spell casters will be able to make the check is they fail the save on a natural 1, so that leaves -1 to skill checks.
The 6 attacks are a bit harsh and they're pretty accurate, but the damage is low. Extra move action is nice, but not that useful offensivly since moving away will provoke an attack of opertunity from 2 if not 3 PCs.
The implant is pretty blody visious though.

I'd say they are under CR'd. To fix them, I'd delay the implant so that they hatch hours latter and the eggs can be removed with a heal check. I'd also down the nimber of stings to 4. If left untouched I'd say their high 5/low 6.

arguskos
2010-05-08, 09:06 PM
Here's the thing I think you might be missing: Hordes of the Abyss was a late print book.

Why does this matter? Because, by the point that book hit, it had contemporaries such as MM4 and MM5, books that have fairly well-designed monsters in them, and because at this point in 3.5s lifespan, WotC was realizing that players are actually mechanically competent, and were designing monsters with the assumption that players knew what they were doing mechanically.

Also, it doesn't help that Devils and Demons are, like Dragons, usually made pretty strong thanks to their racial features, and so the Ekolid is probably more powerful than equivalently CR'd creatures. However, if your party is some combination of ToB classes, Beguiler/Dread Necromancer, Factotum, etc, they'll have no serious issues with it. If they are Fighter, Monk, Adept, and Rogue, they're screwed.

Boci
2010-05-08, 09:18 PM
However, if your party is some combination of ToB classes, Beguiler/Dread Necromancer, Factotum, etc, they'll have no serious issues with it.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It has 6 attacks at a +10 bonus. For each attack that hits the PC must make a DC: 16 fortitude save or be nausiated 1 round latter. Additionally, it can fly (something I missed in my first post) and can full attack and take a move action in the same round (so it can fly down, full attack, then full attack and fly up the next round). It has constant true seeing incase the caster used any low level illusionary buffs, energy resistence against all the four most common elements, is immune to mind affecting spells, can auto pass the greace balance check.
When the party fights it they won't have 3rd level spells or maneuvers, and it will be too early for the dread necromancer to have any undead. Unless the party is heavily optimized and use to wormking together, it will be a very hard fight, even for an average tier 2/3 party.

arguskos
2010-05-08, 09:21 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about that. It has 6 attacks at a +10 bonus. For each attack that hits the PC must make a DC: 16 fortitude save or be nausiated 1 round latter. Additionally, it can fly (something I missed in my first post) and can full attack and take a move action in the same round. It has constant true seeing incase the caster used any low level illusionary buffs, energy resistence against all the four most common elements, is immune to mind affecting spells, can auto pass the greace balance check.
When the party fights it they won't have 3rd level spells or maneuvers. Unless the party is heavily optimized and use to wormking together, it will be a very hard fight, even for an average tier 2/3 party.
Eh, all that needs to happen is a few solid hits. A Tiger Claw Warblade could probably end it in a few rounds once he got to it. A Factotum could do something nutty, almost certainly. A true caster? Bah, they've got a dozen ways easy of killing a flying foe.

Now, I'm not saying it's EASY, just that it's probably only on the high end of CR 4. We're not looking at That Damn Crab mk 2 Spider Demon Edition, just a tough critter.

Boci
2010-05-08, 09:34 PM
Eh, all that needs to happen is a few solid hits. A Tiger Claw Warblade could probably end it in a few rounds once he got to it.

Tiger claw warblade with claw at the moon can do 4d6+2 damage once DR is taken into account assuming a starting strength of 18 and a +1 greatsword. Thats an average of 16 damage with an accuracy of 65%. However his fortitude will likely only be +7 meaning his chances of passing 2 or 3 saves are unlikely.
If both his second level maneuvers are strikes he can almost kill it in 2 rounds, assuming both hit, and he needs to win initiative or else he will most likely be nausiated for the second attack. Additionally, it is more likely he has chosen a counter or a boost as his second maneuver.


A Factotum could do something nutty, almost certainly.

Maybe. They can cast a 1 level spell, or gain +4 to a skill check. Although brawls over brains does give them some good options.


A true caster? Bah, they've got a dozen ways easy of killing a flying foe.

At level 4? Not that much. Glittedust is only a minor problem, and it has a +9 will save modfier. Even if it is blinded it can just fly out of reach until the affect ends. Greace and sleep do not work and colour spray will stun it for 1 round, if it fails it will save. Not that likely.

Here's the basic maths:

It has 39 hp, and will be deducting 5 from any physical attack and 10 from almost any magical attack.
Against an AC of 20 it will do on average 8.375 damage and force 3 saves at DC: 16 or take an additional 3.5 damage per failed save, and you need to pass all of them or be nausiated. Every other round you will only get an AoO against it as it flies up 50ft out of reach.

arguskos
2010-05-08, 09:36 PM
And there's four people, on average. It works out to be only slightly tougher than a level appropriate encounter, putting it just on the higher end of CR 4, WHICH HAS BEEN MY ENTIRE POINT. :smalltongue:

If you'd like this in other, clearer, language: the Ekolid is appropriately CR'd, if you are willing to accept that some CR 4s are better than others. If you are not, then make it CR 5 and move on.

Boci
2010-05-08, 09:43 PM
And there's four people, on average. It works out to be only slightly tougher than a level appropriate encounter, putting it just on the higher end of CR 4, WHICH HAS BEEN MY ENTIRE POINT. :smalltongue:

But you haven't been able to offer much to support this claim, just some vague statements that certain builds "should" be able to handle it. You haven't mentioned a single spell the full caster could use to "easily" kill a flying opponent, and the factotum will merely do something wacky.

I over estimated it, but at least I actually provided numbers to support my claim. Numbers that helped me realize it wasn't as powerful as I thought it was, but it is still easily no way CR 4 IMO.

Plus look at the tactics. Hit and run, with a higher speed than the party and fast healing 5.

arguskos
2010-05-08, 10:10 PM
Ok. Warblades have been shown to be capable. By this measure, I can easily infer that their ToB counterparts would be able to hold their own as well. This is really not that unlikely.

From the SRD and Spell Compendium and the major spell lists, let's take a look at things that can be used to hash this fellow:
Cleric (not looking at domains): Nothing in the SRD seems useful honestly. From the SpC, we have Axiomatic Water (seriously, it's holy water but lawful; specific, but damn handy), Deific Vengeance (untyped damage, not much, but it beats all immunities/resistances and doesn't need an attack roll and only gets a save for half), Light of Mercuria (deals total of 4d6 against evil outsiders, seems useful here). Clerics also benefit from all the standard buff spells, both for themselves and others, which we should all be familiar with.

Druid: Entangle (it's not immune, even though it flies), Summon Swarm (that can wear it down over time, get Bats, and the Ekolid is screwed, since it can't do anything about the swarm really), Blinding Spittle (blinds it, then it's screwed), Saltray (damage+stun, which drops it out of the air, IIRC), Spinterbolt (it's not immune to 4d6 damage :smalltongue:). Druids also have their animal companions to think about.

Sor/Wiz: Magic Missile (you'll laugh, but seriously, it's a no-save, nothing the Ekolid can do, long-range damage spell), Color Spray (if you're brave and have a good save, this can stun it), Ray of Enfeeblement (durrrr), Glitterdust (you blew it off, but, should it fail a save, it gets punked), Summon Swarm (again), Web (hard to land it in the web, but, it does work), Blindness/Deafness (go blind, it either makes the save or dies like a bitch, again), Pyrotechnics (blinding, again), Lesser Orb of Sound and Hail of Stone (both are good damage spells it gets punked by), Ray of Clumsiness (as with Ray of Enfeeblement, durrrr), Baleful Transposition (if it fails its save, swap it with someone who can take the falling damage, and place it inside your group, where the Big Dumb Fighter has a readied action to hack it into cubes; takes planning, but ends it), Sting Ray (depending on your DM, this may override the Ekolid's Quickness, or not; if it does, it's awesome, if not, it's not, YMMV), Blast of Force (look Ma, force damage!), Light of Mercuria (as Cleric), Belkers Claws (if you can land it, probably through Spectral Hand, it's great).

Now, some of these are situational, yes, but thanks to the magic of Knowledge checks and player's checking their facts, it's fully possible that players would come pre-armed to fight these buggers.

I'm not going to do a feat/build analysis of this, since I have other things to do with my day, but trust me when I tell you that it IS killable by casters, ToBers, probably Factotums, and very likely well-build melee warriors.

I will grant that Form of Madness is a little better than I recall, but, since it doesn't stack with itself, and is only a DC 10 Concentration check (all primary casters should have at least a +8 by now, probably better if they have more than a +1 Con mod), it's not that big a deal really.

Now, is that enough detail for you? It CAN be shot down, since it has a fairly crappy AC (I routinely do better at level 2, without much effort), it CAN be magic'd down, as it doesn't have SR, it's defenses are surmountable, and it's DR can be overcome if you bring Align Weapon.

I didn't check Beguiler because I misspoke on that one. He's probably screwed (lolimmunetomindaffecting). I didn't check DNecro because I have other things to do tonight, like NOT debate this. If you seriously believe this is SO POWERFUL you need 3rd level spells, you are almost certainly mistaken. Granted, if your party doesn't do their research, or this is a random encounter, yes, they will have immense trouble killing it. However, with even a little time to prepare, Ekolids are not so bad really, just tough. Not the "OMGGAMEOVERMANGAMEOVER" some people think.

EDIT: Concerning hit-and-run tactics, if it doesn't get away, that's not an issue. One blinding effect and the fight is over. Period.

evil-frosty
2010-05-08, 10:18 PM
So it is completely dependent on optimization levels, alright now is there some way to actually end the forms of madness ability with out using the spells listed cause lets face it those are fairly high level and out of reach of the standard 4th level character

Runestar
2010-05-08, 10:23 PM
The book does have a few questionable crs. I remember pitting a bar-lurga against my 5th lv party once, and it was a veritable TPK (and only because I have it flee at the last moment). That thing was fairly tough, with dr10! and a nasty offensive teleport ability which allowed me to thin out the party into bite-size pieces. It also had fairly good defenses.

Subsequently, we were better prepared for it, with the wizard casting anticipate teleport, and the whole party readying actions the moment it zapped in. Some lucky rolls, and it went down in a heartbeat. I guess it also helped that we replaced the now-dead fighter with a warblade - mountain hammer really helped against its dr. :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-05-08, 10:23 PM
Maybe. They can cast a 1 level spell, or gain +4 to a skill check. Although brawls over brains does give them some good options."Brawls over brains" is what a zombie does. :smallwink:

Factotums have Brains over Brawl, and what sort of wacky thing should they do? Well, if they win initiative (which is a Dex check, so they add their Int mod to their Dex mod), they can get 2d6 to 3d6 from Cunning Knowledge'd Iaijutsu Focus with 1d6 more damage per inspiration point they spend on Cunning Strike, in addition to the weapon damage and their stength or dex mod (and possibly 1-3 to hit and damage from Knowledge Devotion).

Boci
2010-05-08, 10:48 PM
Ok. Warblades have been shown to be capable. By this measure, I can easily infer that their ToB counterparts would be able to hold their own as well. This is really not that unlikely.

Yes, if the warblade can kill it in 3 rounds, if both its 2nd level readied maneuvers are the highest damaging ones available and it isn't nausiated. If its 2 redied second level maneuvers are emerald razor and wall of blades its a different story.


Sor: Magic Missile (you'll laugh, but seriously, it's a no-save, nothing the Ekolid can do, long-range damage spell), Color Spray (if you're brave and have a good save, this can stun it), Ray of Enfeeblement (durrrr), Glitterdust (you blew it off, but, should it fail a save, it gets punked), Summon Swarm (again), Web (hard to land it in the web, but, it does work), Blindness/Deafness (go blind, it either makes the save or dies like a bitch, again), Pyrotechnics (blinding, again), Lesser Orb of Sound and Hail of Stone (both are good damage spells it gets punked by), Ray of Clumsiness (as with Ray of Enfeeblement, durrrr), Baleful Transposition (if it fails its save, swap it with someone who can take the falling damage, and place it inside your group, where the Big Dumb Fighter has a readied action to hack it into cubes; takes planning, but ends it), Sting Ray (depending on your DM, this may override the Ekolid's Quickness, or not; if it does, it's awesome, if not, it's not, YMMV), Blast of Force (look Ma, force damage!), Light of Mercuria (as Cleric), Belkers Claws (if you can land it, probably through Spectral Hand, it's great).

Sorceror not wizard, so he cannot change his spells everyday.


I will grant that Form of Madness is a little better than I recall, but, since it doesn't stack with itself, and is only a DC 10 Concentration check (all primary casters should have at least a +8 by now, probably better if they have more than a +1 Con mod), it's not that big a deal really.

I cannot imagine it being a problem for the PCs.


Now, is that enough detail for you?

Yes, but a lot of it is useless, since my point was with your claim that:


However, if your party is some combination of ToB classes, Beguiler/Dread Necromancer, Factotum, etc, they'll have no serious issues with it.

and you then mentioned three tier 1 casters (cleric, druid and wizard which I never said would have a problem with it) and only one tier 2 caster (sorceror). Sorry about the misunderstanding.


EDIT: Concerning hit-and-run tactics, if it doesn't get away, that's not an issue. One blinding effect and the fight is over. Period.

Assuming it fails its save it flies upwards in a straight line then waits for the affect to end.


"Brawls over brains" is what a zombie does. :smallwink:

Factotums have Brains over Brawl, and what sort of wacky thing should they do? Well, if they win initiative (which is a Dex check, so they add their Int mod to their Dex mod), they can get 2d6 to 3d6 from Cunning Knowledge'd Iaijutsu Focus with 1d6 more damage per inspiration point they spend on Cunning Strike, in addition to the weapon damage and their stength or dex mod (and possibly 1-3 to hit and damage from Knowledge Devotion).

Iaijutsu focus is often not allowed and RAW seems to suggest you can only gain 1 dice of sneak attack from cunning strike. Even if we assume 1d4 weapon damage (gnome quick razor) +2d6 from cunning strike and iajutsu focus +3 from strength and knowledge devotion, thats an average of 7.5 damage once DR is factored in, and they regain 5 hp every round. Did I mention they could fly (traveling 60ft after full attacking) and they like hit and run tactics?

arguskos
2010-05-08, 11:05 PM
You'll also note, Boci, if you do an actual in-depth reading of my post, that I make a handful of assumptions which I feel are fair (the players have at least a few moments to prepare; they aren't noobs to the game), retract something in fairness (the Beguiler, as I forgot all obryiths get immunity to mind-affecting, though a clever enough Beguiler might be able to do something anyways), and explain why I'm not doing more to show my point. Oh, and Factotum inanity was covered after my post by... Greenish, I believe.

Now, if you want to debate pedantries, as the exact wording I used, fine. Have fun, but I've no interest in debating that way, it feels pointless and possessed of little for me to care about. :smalltongue: Would you prefer if I said "the entirety of Tiers 1-3 are capable of handling Ekolids", as was my intention to begin with?

Boci
2010-05-08, 11:12 PM
Would you prefer if I said "the entirety of Tiers 1-3 are capable of handling Ekolids", as was my intention to begin with?

This statement I have no problem with. If a party can with a bit of luck take out an opponent 3-4 CR above their level then I am sure they can handle an under CR'd bug, even if it can fly and inject you with its children.

People can be misunderstood in real life. On the internet I cannot do much but take what other posters say at face value, unless it is indicated with a smilie, thus I objected to the "ToB classes, Beguiler/Dread Necromancer, Factotum, etc" and "no serious issues with it" stattements and never read any deeper into them.

arguskos
2010-05-08, 11:18 PM
This statement I have no problem with. If a party can with a bit of luck take out an opponent 3-4 CR above their level then I am sure they can handle an under CR'd bug, even if it can fly and inject you with its children.

People can be misunderstood in real life. On the internet I cannot do much but take what other posters say at face value, unless it is indicated with a smilie, thus I objected to the "ToB classes, Beguiler/Dread Necromancer, Factotum, etc" and "no serious issues with it" stattements and never read any deeper into them.
Fair enough, though my intention was pretty clear. My mistake for not clarifying it.

However, I'd like to note that the ToB classes, Beguiler/DNecro, and Factotum are all Tier 3. When I changed my statement to "all Tier 1-3 classes can handle it", it by default included my previous statement, which you took such grievous offense to. :smalltongue:

Oh, and for the record, I use "no serious issues" in this context to mean the following: "a CR appropriate encounter", as 1 Ekolid would be for a group of a Warblade, a Factotum, a Beguiler, and a Dread Necromancer, all at level 4. Now, if we combine statements, we get the following concept: "a sample group of classes from Tiers 1-3, such as a group of a Warblade, a Factotum, a Beguiler, and a Dread Necromancer, all at level 4, should have a CR appropriate encounter with an encounter consisting of 1 Ekolid."

Now, is THAT clear enough? :smallbiggrin:

faceroll
2010-05-08, 11:20 PM
I've run them against a level 7 party with a Batman wizard, a C and Dzilla, and a rogue/swordsage, and was pleased with the results. I can't remember the exact way it went, just that their ability to see through the usual tricks (invisibility, illusions), great saves (thanks to outsider hit dice), flight, oodles of attacks with a good bonus, and multitude of fort saves made them pretty fierce. They weren't party wipers because PCs are resourceful and have access to a lot of equipment, but damn they were fun. And creepy as hell. I really creeped the PCs out with them and their handiwork.

Greenish
2010-05-08, 11:26 PM
Iaijutsu focus is often not allowed and RAW seems to suggest you can only gain 1 dice of sneak attack from cunning strike. Even if we assume 1d4 weapon damage (gnome quick razor) +2d6 from cunning strike and iajutsu focus +3 from strength and knowledge devotion, thats an average of 7.5 damage once DR is factored in, and they regain 5 hp every round. Did I mention they could fly (traveling 60ft after full attacking) and they like hit and run tactics?Well, he could just as well use a greatsword (the only reason not to have one around would be carrying capacity). We'll assume he has 14 Strength, which is not unreasonable for a more martial factotum. Assuming average rolls and just two uses of cunning strike, we'd get 28.5 damage before DR. 2d6 (greatsword) + 3d6 (iaijutsu focus) + 2d6 (cunning strike) + 3 (strength) + 2 (knowledge devotion).

Even after DR, that's more than half of the critter's hitpoints gone with the factotum's first turn. If the critter is flying, the factotum will have to settle for a thrown weapon, most likely light hammer (d4 with 20' range increment) or throwing axe (d6 with 10' range increment).

[Edit]: Forgot Cunning Insight, that's Int mod to damage (or to hit if you feel like it).
[Edit]: Forgot to actually wield the greatsword with both hands and get 1.5x strength mod. Also, with Strength Devotion (like you suggested, and which isn't bad for a martially inclined factotum with turning attempts to burn) he'd pierce the DR, and possibly (if he got a fullround action at melee range) add d6 + 0.5x strength mod Slam attack into the mix.

arguskos
2010-05-08, 11:31 PM
Well, he could just as well use a greatsword (the only reason not to have one around would be carrying capacity). We'll assume he has 14 Strength, which is not unreasonable for a more martial factotum. Assuming average rolls and just two uses of cunning strike, we'd get 28.5 damage before DR. 2d6 (greatsword) + 3d6 (iaijutsu focus) + 2d6 (cunning strike) + 2 (strength) + 2 (knowledge devotion).

Even after DR, that's more than half of the critter's hitpoints gone with the factotum's first turn. If the critter is flying, the factotum will have to settle for a thrown weapon, most likely light hammer (d4 with 20' range increment) or throwing axe (d6 with 10' range increment).
Or, he could be a baller, and hurl greatswords at it. I mean, that's totally possible, and with an AC of 17, he might actually HIT it. The penalty for throwing a non-thrown weapon is what, -4? At level 4, that's not insurmountable. However, it IS totally manly, meaning I approve wholeheartedly. Greatsword-throwing Iaijutsu Focusing Factotums Away! :smallbiggrin:

Disclaimer: This ENTIRE POST is tongue-in-cheek, Boci, don't you dare get tetchy with me about throwing greatswords. :smalltongue:

Powerfamiliar
2010-05-08, 11:36 PM
It will be particularly under CR'ed if used as a boss monster. As I understand a lvl 4 party should be able to take down a CR 4 creature with no real problem 925% of resources expended), and really be challenged by CR 6ish. A CR 4 monster will often be used as a boss encounter for lvl 2ish parties this monster doesn't seem suitable for that.

I seems like a creature better designed to be use in multiples against higher level parties (2 of these against a lvl 6 party seems like a fair fight) rather than as a boss monster or straight 1 vs party monster.

Boci
2010-05-08, 11:42 PM
Well, he could just as well use a greatsword (the only reason not to have one around would be carrying capacity). We'll assume he has 14 Strength, which is not unreasonable for a more martial factotum. Assuming average rolls and just two uses of cunning strike, we'd get 28.5 damage before DR. 2d6 (greatsword) + 3d6 (iaijutsu focus) + 2d6 (cunning strike) + 2 (strength) + 2 (knowledge devotion).

Wow, a character with the dice on his side who is specifically build for an encounter is actually good at it?

1.If you're using iaijutsu focus, you're probably using gnome quick razor. And let be honest, how many factotums actually do wield a greatsword even if they can?
2. How reliable are you hitting 3d6 extra damage with iaijutsu at level 4?
3. As I said earlier, the RAW implies you cannot get more than 1d6 exztra damage with cunning strike.

You have specifically taiored the character for this encounter and are assuming a very leniant DM and the luck of the dice. Even if we assume my first estimate was a bit short, 1d6 (short sword) + 2d6 (iaijutsu focus) + 1d6 (cunning strike) + 2 (strength) + 2 (knowledge devotion) +4 (inteligence) is going to be a more commonly seen, and thats an average of 17 damage after DR. A lot, but now you had better pray it does not act beofre you party members, becayse if it does, that 7 attacks, and then its leaving in the same turn, only to be back at full health.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-08, 11:45 PM
Wow, a character with the dice on his side who is specifically build for an encounter is actually good at it?

1.If you're using iaijutsu focus, you're probably using gnome quick razor. And let be honest, how many factotums actually do wield a greatsword even if they can?
2. How reliable are you hitting 3d6 extra damage with iaijutsu at level 4?
3. As I said earlier, the RAW implies you cannot get more than 1d6 exztra damage with cunning strike.

You have specifically taiored the character for this encounter and are assuming a very leniant DM and the luck of the dice. Even if we assume my first estimate was a bit short, 1d6 (short sword) + 2d6 (iaijutsu focus) + 1d6 (cunning strike) + 2 (strength) + 2 (knowledge devotion) +4 (inteligence) is going to be a more commonly seen, and thats an average of 17 damage after DR. A lot, but now you had better pray it does not act beofre you party members, becayse if it does, that 7 attacks, and then its leaving in the same turn, only to be back at full health.

Luck of the dice, sure, but I'm not sure how he tailored the character to the encounter. This same greatsword-chucking factotum, as suboptimal as it is, would still do a comparable amount of damage to pretty much any enemy, consdering he can pull off this combo with non-greatsword weapons too.

arguskos
2010-05-08, 11:47 PM
Uh, Boci, none of what Greenish threw out there was even remotely implausible. This is why Factotums are good, because that WASN'T tailored for this encounter, it was something Factotums just DO. I've seen a great deal of Factotums carry greatswords (why carry something smaller if you are combat-focused, don't have a better exotic weapon, and have the strength to make it matter), we've already accepted Iaijutsu Focus as being acceptable, Cunning Strike has no limitations and none that is implied, where is any of this unlikely? Sure, he might wiff the attack (seen it happen, watched the player weep, was much amused), but this is just how that class rolls.

Hell, he could burn ALL his inspiration on Cunning Strike if he is assured to hit, and just slaughter the thing in one attack. Is that unfun? Yes. Is it cheap? Yes. Is it totally possible and completely permitted? Yes. Factotums: breaking encounters since Dungeonscape was printed. :smallcool:

EDIT: What Glyphstone said too.

EDIT^2: Also, uh, he claimed average rolls, not "the dice favoring him". Just sayin'.

Greenish
2010-05-08, 11:52 PM
Wow, a character with the dice on his side who is specifically build for an encounter is actually good at it?Actually, I used the average rolls for that.


1.If you're using iaijutsu focus, you're probably using gnome quick razor. And let be honest, how many factotums actually do wield a greatsword even if they can?Why wouldn't they? It's good damage on the charge at first round or surprise round, and since you can just let go off a 2-handed weapon with one hand as a free action and grab it again as a free action, it's nice for making AoOs and attacking when the enemy is not flat-footed. We're assuming competent players, no?

2. How reliable are you hitting 3d6 extra damage with iaijutsu at level 4?7 ranks + 4 via Cunning Knowledge + 10 average d20 roll gives 21. You need 20+ for 3d6 damage.

3. As I said earlier, the RAW implies you cannot get more than 1d6 exztra damage with cunning strike.RAW implies monks aren't proficient with their fists. Also, there's the Sage's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070412a) ruling for what it's worth.


have specifically taiored the character for this encounter and are assuming a very leniant DM and the luck of the dice.I'm using a rather generic martial factotum with perfectly average rolls, and I don't see where this "very lenient DM" steps into the picture.


Even if we assume my first estimate was a bit short, 1d6 (short sword) + 2d6 (iaijutsu focus) + 1d6 (cunning strike) + 2 (strength) + 2 (knowledge devotion) +4 (inteligence) is going to be a more commonly seen, and thats an average of 17 damage after DR. A lot, but now you had better pray it does not act beofre you party members, becayse if it does, that 7 attacks, and then its leaving in the same turn, only to be back at full health.Why on Earth would he use short sword? Seriously.

Boci
2010-05-08, 11:55 PM
Uh, Boci, none of what Greenish threw out there was even remotely implausible. This is why Factotums are good, because that WASN'T tailored for this encounter, it was something Factotums just DO. I've seen a great deal of Factotums carry greatswords (why carry something smaller if you are combat-focused, don't have a better exotic weapon, and have the strength to make it matter),

If you're using iaijutsu focus you will probably be using a quick gnome razor, since that allows more frequent uses of iaijutsu damage (but does not do that much damage, making it bad for a blitzer). A lot of factotums who do not want to spend a feat slot will stead choose a feycraft fineasable weapon. I have never seen a factotum wield a greatsword, so they might not wield one.


we've already accepted Iaijutsu Focus as being acceptable,

So have I which is why I included it in every dice calculation. Not all DM's do however.


Cunning Strike has no limitations and none that is implied, where is any of this unlikely?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113400


EDIT^2: Also, uh, he claimed average rolls, not "the dice favoring him". Just sayin'.

Average rolls do not allow you to win initiative, hit and get 3d6 on iaijutsu focus in the same round.


Actually, I used the average rolls for that.

Average rolls does not mean you roll a 10 on everything.



I'm using a rather generic martial factotum

Everything about the build involves dealing a lot of damage in the first round. Not every factotum takes knowledge devotion, some pump FoI to be able to endurantly use IP throughout the battle.

Not every factotum wield a great sword.

Not every factotum is allowed to take iaijutsu focus and use cunning strike multiple times.


with perfectly average rolls, and I don't see where this "very lenient DM" steps into the picture.

I already explained why.


Why on Earth would he use short sword? Seriously.

Weapon finesse + feycraft? Or thats what they want their character to wield?


RAW implies monks aren't proficient with their fists. Also, there's the Sage's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070412a) ruling for what it's worth.

Many DMs feel the "jack of all master of none" implies a factotum should never be able to out SA a rogue.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 12:07 AM
If you're using iaijutsu focus you will probably be using a quick gnome razor, since that allows more frequent uses of iaijutsu damage (but does not do that much damage, making it bad for a blitzer). A lot of factotums who do not want to spend a feat slot will stead choose a feycraft fineasable weapon. I have never seen a factotum wield a greatsword, so they might not wield one.You can use both greatsword and a quickrazor. On the first round, smash with the greatsword with IF damage. On the following rounds, smack with the greatsword if the enemy is not flat-footed, use quickrazor if it is (you can let go of the sword with one hand as a free action, pull razor as a free action, attack, sheathe the razor as a free action and then grab the sword again as a free action). If your enemy looks to be staying flat-footed, just don't grab the sword with your other hand: you still count as armed while wielding a greatsword two-handed so you get to do AoOs, which you can do with razor. At higher levels, you might want to start dual-wielding, but not at level 4.

So have I which is why I included it in every dice calculation. Not all DM's do however.And not all DMs allow ToB, yet you had no problems with the warblade.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113400Yeah, you'll find the same link to Sage's ruling from that, as well as general consensus which seems to allow it.

Average rools do not allow you to win initiative, hit and get 3d6 on iaijutsu focus.For initiative, factotum gets dex mod + int mod, not to mention being sneaky enough to have a shot at surprise round. For hit, the factotum has +3 from BAB and +2 from strength, possibly a masterwork weapon, and he's targetting the flat-footed AC.


Average rolls does not mean you roll a 10 on everything.Average roll for d20 is 10.5. What number should I be using?

Everything about the build involves dealing a lot of damage in the first round.Really? All there is is a lot of standard factotum stuff. One feat used, carrying a 50 gp weapon. He could easily use quickrazor too, if that tickles your fancy.

Not every factotum takes knowledge devotion, some pump FoI to be able to endurantly use IP throughout the battle.Yeah, and some factotums no doubt optimize their Profession: Dirt Farmer and stay home earning money with profession checks. I'm not saying every factotum will have Knowledge Devotion, but many do, and it's in no way an unreasonable assumption.

Not every factotum wield a great sword.There's no reason not to have one with you.

Not every factotum is allowed to take iaijutsu focus and use cunning strike multiple times.And some poor rogues only get to apply SA dice on their first attack on fullround attack.

I already explained why.You linked to a thread that supports what I'm saying.

Weapon finesse + feycraft? Or thats what they want their character to wield?There's no burning need for a factotum to have their Dex score much higher than their strength score. Sure, they might want to wield a shortsword for some reason, but we're assuming decent optimization here, right?

Many DMs feel the "jack of all master of none" implies a factotum should never be able to out SA a rogue.Boo whoo. Isn't bard the "jack of all trades", traditionally?

Besides, even if we ignore all that, you cannot kill him in one round, even with the AoO, so if it beats your allies initiative you're taking 7 attacks, and then its leaving.I've never said you ought to kill it in one round: I was merely demonstrating what a factotum can do, since you asked for more details.

Boci
2010-05-09, 12:14 AM
You can use both greatsword and a quickrazor. On the first round, smash with the greatsword with IF damage. On the following rounds, smack with the greatsword if the enemy is not flat-footed, use quickrazor if it is (you can let go of the sword with one hand as a free action, pull razor as a free action, attack, sheathe the razor as a free action and then grab the sword again as a free action). If your enemy looks to be staying flat-footed, just don't grab the sword with your other hand: you still count as armed while wielding a greatsword two-handed so you get to do AoOs, which you can do with razor. At higher levels, you might want to start dual-wielding, but not at level 4.

Some players like to have just 1 weapon. Fits their heroic image more.


And not all DMs allow ToB, yet you had no problems with the warblade.

I'm just saying you cannot always count on it.


Yeah, you'll find the same link to Sage's ruling from that, as well as general consensus which seems to allow it.

Its another thing the DM has to grant you though. It adds up.


For initiative, factotum gets dex mod + int mod, not to mention being sneaky enough to have a shot at surprise round. For hit, the factotum has +3 from BAB and +2 from strength, possibly a masterwork weapon, and he's targetting the flat-footed AC.

You beat him on initiative 60% of the time (+3 dex vs. your +2 dex and +4 int). You get 3d6 iaijutsu damage 50% of the time. You hit his flat footed AC 60% (masterwork weapon included). The chances of every single one working out is 18%.

Besides, even if we ignore all that, you cannot kill him in one round, even with the AoO, so if it beats your allies initiative you're taking 7 attacks, and then its leaving.

Runestar
2010-05-09, 12:16 AM
How did a discussion on the ekolid turn into a debate on the merits of a factotum? Yes, I suppose that certain party makeups are in a better position to defeat it, but we can't possibly assume every party consists of such PCs. :smallconfused:

Boci
2010-05-09, 12:22 AM
How did a discussion on the ekolid turn into a debate on the merits of a factotum? Yes, I suppose that certain party makeups are in a better position to defeat it, but we can't possibly assume every party consists of such PCs. :smallconfused:

Didn't you hear? All factotum's have at least 14 strength, knowledge devotion, wield greatswords and roll 10s every single time.

senrath
2010-05-09, 12:23 AM
There are melee factotums that DON'T take Knowledge Devotion?

Boci
2010-05-09, 12:24 AM
There are melee factotums that DON'T take Knowledge Devotion?

There are factotums who don't take knowledge devotioin.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 12:27 AM
Some players like to have just 1 weapon. Fits their heroic image more.And some people play monks. You're just being willful now.

I'm just saying you cannot always count on it.I never said all factotums will have them. Look, you asked what the factotum could do, I gave you one example.

Its another thing the DM has to grant you though. It adds up.Yes, your DM might houserule it away. Or he might rule that you kill the critter with your sheer awesomeness.

You beat him on initiative 60% of the time (+3 dex vs. your +2 dex and +4 int). You get 3d6 iaijutsu damage 50% of the time. You hit his flat footed AC 60% (masterwork weapon included). The chances of every single one working out is 18%.Statistics don't work like that, I'm afraid.

Besides, even if we ignore all that, you cannot kill him in one round, even with the AoO, so if it beats your allies initiative you're taking 7 attacks, and then its leaving.I never claimed that you could kill the thing in one turn all alone. I repeat: you asked the specifics of what a factotum could do, I show you one example.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 12:32 AM
Didn't you hear? All factotum's have at least 14 strength, knowledge devotion, wield greatswords and roll 10s every single time.Please, try to act like an adult. :smallamused:

Boci
2010-05-09, 12:33 AM
And some people play monks. You're just being willful now.

So playing a mechanically luck-luster class is equal to only wielding 1 weapon so you can claim that every foe you ever bested you did so with your own blade (insert name)?


Statistics don't work like that, I'm afraid.

Yes your right, your far more likely to beast the monster at everything than fail once.


you asked the specifics of what a factotum could do, I show you one example.

And then proceeded to write off all other examples with "Why on earth would they do that?". Based on my gaming expirience I find the factotum builds I was putting forwards more likely. You clearly play different games.


Please, try to act like an adult. :smallamused:

Then don't insult people who play a factotum and use a short sword.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 12:39 AM
And then proceeded to write off all other examples with "Why on earth would they do that?". Based on my gaming expirience I find the factotum builds I was putting forwards more likely. You clearly play different games."All of the examples"? That was one specific example, and an honest question.

Then don't insult people who play a factotum and use a short sword.I didn't insult them, I asked why would one want to do it. You said since it's cool. That's okay, but I was assuming the factotum is concerned about his combat prowess too.

Boci
2010-05-09, 12:42 AM
"All of the examples"? That was one specific example, and an honest question.

You dismissed the idea of only wielding one weapon and switching between multiple ones, and the idea of shortsword.


I didn't insult them, I asked why would one want to do it. You said since it's cool. That's okay, but I was assuming the factotum is concerned about his combat prowess too.

Wrong.

Theres a mechanical reason: weapon finesseable + fey craft.

And then there is the reason that many people just assume a factotum would not wield a greatsword, since they do not imagine it to be a a factotum weapon. Nothing to do with cool.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 12:49 AM
You dismissed the idea of only wielding one weapon and switching between multiple ones, and the idea of shortsword.I'm all for wielding multiple weapons, it's pretty awesome. If someone wants to wield just one weapon, well, it's their fault if they aren't so effective. Shortswords, as said, I only asked for a reason to use them.

Wrong.

Theres a mechanical reason: weapon finesse + fey craft.Feycraft does the same as weapon finesse, but the other costs a feat, the other a bit more money for the same weapon. Unless your dex is much higher than your strength, weapon finesse is not worth it, and probably not feycraft either.

And then there is the reason that many people just assume a factotum would not wield a long sword.I haven't met any, so that's outside my experience. Factotums are cool because their options, you can make them do pretty much anything.

Boci
2010-05-09, 12:53 AM
I'm all for wielding multiple weapons, it's pretty awesome.

Shame it becomes less effective at higher levels.


If someone wants to wield just one weapon, well, it's their fault if they aren't so effective.

You could say the same about factotum vs. full caster.


Feycraft does the same as weapon finesse, but the other costs a feat, the other a bit more money for the same weapon. Unless your dex is much higher than your strength, weapon finesse is not worth it, and probably not feycraft either.

1.5kgp for dex to hit is a good deal, and factotums benefit from a high AC, especially before they get int to AC.


I haven't met any, so that's outside my experience. Factotums are cool because their options, you can make them do pretty much anything.

Haven't you seen any of the sample builds posted here for P.E.A.C.H.

Greenish
2010-05-09, 01:03 AM
Shame it becomes less effective at higher levels.Well, you'll still want stuff to breach DR/this or that.

You could say the same about factotum vs. full caster.Heh, warmage is a full caster. :smalltongue:
But yeah, there's a difference between grasping for the ultimate power and building a solid character, though what constitutes the latter varies widely.

1.5kgp for dex to hit is a good deal, and factotums benefit from a high AC, especially before they get int to AC.Factotums also benefit from high strength for combat maneuvers, in which they're pretty good. Strength also automatically applies to damage, so it'll depend on the build. Finesse build will want the quickrazor, since without extra source of damage they aren't doing much.

Haven't you seen any of the sample builds posted here for P.E.A.C.H.I haven't been haunting these forums for so long, I'm not certain I've seen any factotum builds detailed down to weaponry used floating around. I don't know what P.E.A.C.H. means either. :smalltongue:

Volthawk
2010-05-09, 02:45 AM
Not too sure how much it helps, but this 4th level Factotum would also have 2 1st level Wizard spells.

Pluto
2010-05-09, 03:10 AM
What are we talking about again?

Because it isn't unreasonable to assume that either combat-focused melee build would be able to harm an Ekolid. And be able to hurt other things, with some regularity.

And even if the Factotum in question weren't putting all his skill ranks into Knowledges, Iajitsu Focuses and Feats designed for melee, we could still probably assume he had ranks in UMD. Or in Hide.

Actually, why this focus on the Factotum? -- If there's a party member you'd expect to use circumstantial (rather than build-focused) elements of a situation to overcome an encounter, it would be the skillmonkey.


...

The Ekolid has obnoxious resistances, high saves and abilities that partially make up for the 4-on-1 action economy of Party v. Demon. But it also has an awful Grapple, mediocre AC, lackluster perception skills and 3 party members who won't be nauseated each round.

An archer is going to have arrows to get around various DR's.
A sorcerer should have something to do (buffs, debuffs, shuttling party members around with Benign Transposition), for when direct offensive spells just won't work.
A strong melee character should be able to overwhelm the DR through Power Attack or Maneuvers. (Non-grappling natural attack specialists might have some trouble though.)

Honestly, this thing has a very real chance of killing the party Rogue. But even in a straight fight, it only has one round to the party's four (and it isn't likely to catch the party in the surprise round). So this thing isn't a pushover for its CR, but it's not outrageous, either, provided the party has done some minimalistic optimization (ie. no Sword-and-Board Fighters, no Warlocks straight out of the tin).

edit:
Huh. Its quick-reference Spot and Listen scores are much less impressive than the ones in the skills section. Stupid editing.

Boci
2010-05-09, 06:08 AM
Well, you'll still want stuff to breach DR/this or that.

Thats having a backup weapon, not changing weapons every encounter.


But yeah, there's a difference between grasping for the ultimate power and building a solid character, though what constitutes the latter varies widely.

One of my PCs will frequently go to great lengths to describe their weapon, including naming it, and customizing it with selected pieces of gems/bone/metal that he collects during his adventure. He doesn't want to have to use another weapon reguarly.

But we've already established that is just me being willful.


Factotums also benefit from high strength for combat maneuvers, in which they're pretty good. Strength also automatically applies to damage, so it'll depend on the build. Finesse build will want the quickrazor, since without extra source of damage they aren't doing much.

As I said, based on the sample builds I've seen on this forume, dex based ones seem more common.


I don't know what P.E.A.C.H. means either. :smalltongue:

Please Examine and Critique Honestly.



Statistics don't work like that, I'm afraid.

This one is just bugging me. Since it isn't something I can use google for, can you tell me how they do work?


So this thing isn't a pushover for its CR, but it's not outrageous, either, provided the party has done some minimalistic optimization

The thing is though, the party is going to need to kill it in 1 round plus AoO, and to get their 4 actions every single one needs to beat its initiative. First action is going to be full attack whoever is ajacent, then fly off, only to return latter once it is fully healed.